As somebody who lost a brother at Guadalcanal and did not have a father for the four years of WWII, I find most of these anti-American remarks insulting to their memories.

The US has gone to war twice to bail Europe out of the mess they found themselves in and to avenge the attack on Pearl Harbor. We have never colonized any conquered land in Europe and have only asked for enough land to bury our dead.

The freedoms each of you enjoy to make posts such as these were won by the deaths and injuries of military men and women from all freedom loving countries. You should be thanking them instead of "despising" them, as one of you bright bulbs mentioned earlier.

I have nothing but contempt for your posts, and I am certain you really don't care.

You da man, Pat Oliphant.

As somebody who lost a brother at Guadalcanal and did not have a father for the four years of WWII, I find most of these anti-American remarks insulting to their memories.

The US has gone to war twice to bail Europe out of the mess they found themselves in and to avenge the attack on Pearl Harbor. We have never colonized any conquered land in Europe and have only asked for enough land to bury our dead.

The freedoms each of you enjoy to make posts such as these were won by the deaths and injuries of military men and women from all freedom loving countries. You should be thanking them instead of "despising" them, as one of you bright bulbs mentioned earlier.

I have nothing but contempt for your posts, and I am certain you really don't care.

Calm yourself because none here is insulting your brother or father.

Those were wars different from the occupation that passes these days for war.

You make a bold statement about freedoms without knowing who served or lost what.

You also assume my freedom was given to me like a dog released from leash.

American Patriots are not a breed of dog defined by a corrupt masters order to jump or roll over.

You should remember what true Americans said to your ancestors.

I do care about your contempt as it is misplaced.

I am not an ex-patriot & perhaps that is the difference.

Pledging allegiance to a Republic as the framers of the constitution intended or the five who penned the Declaration Of Independence is not the same as having blind faith in what exists today.

Remember how & why America came to be. Fighting against tyranny is as American as it gets.

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

-- Thomas Jefferson

As somebody who lost a brother at Guadalcanal and did not have a father for the four years of WWII, I find most of these anti-American remarks insulting to their memories.

The US has gone to war twice to bail Europe out of the mess they found themselves in and to avenge the attack on Pearl Harbor. We have never colonized any conquered land in Europe and have only asked for enough land to bury our dead.

The freedoms each of you enjoy to make posts such as these were won by the deaths and injuries of military men and women from all freedom loving countries. You should be thanking them instead of "despising" them, as one of you bright bulbs mentioned earlier.

I have nothing but contempt for your posts, and I am certain you really don't care.

You're right, I don't really care because you can't help yourself. Having been a subject of the All American way, and never having thought outside the box, you are stuck in the mindset established for you by your country.

You repeat the very cliched, "We saved Europe and if it wasn't for us you'd be licking the toes of the Japs/Germans now". line. American tourists use that line to try to get better service in restaurants or any other time they have a complaint such as, "Why can't these Froggies speak good ol' 'Merican English? We saved them from Hitler." or "Why can't these Kiwis drive on the right side of the road? We saved their asses in the Pacific, dang it all."

You are also one of those unfortunates that fail to be able to think outside the box when you use the accusation of "anti-American" as if it should carry a heavier connotation than any other discrimination. This is common amongst red-necks; it's ok to be anti-anything, any country, any race.....but anti-Americanism is a crime against humanity.

I will point out, though, that I am not aware of anyone who despises the veterans of the world wars, American or otherwise. I am certain that I did not imply that at all.

The only derogation of American World War vets that I've commonly heard is their tendency to kill by friendly fire. (They still have that tendency these days, but it is overshaddowed by the kind of behaviour we are discussing)

The type of cowardly bastards I despise are the ones that shoot a man that is confirmed to be wounded, or the blood-thirsty bastards that embellish the scene to the CO by lying that a single ambiguous long object is definitely more than one weapon so as to get the order to shoot everyone in sight.

Just to put things in perspective; Harcourt-XXXX, Sapper, A749846, NZ Army Territorials. I am not an armchair general or pacifist and I was one of the first to volunteer to go over if things got out of hand when Fiji had it's first coup....a prospect of coming up against Sinnai and Lebanon veterans defending their own land. No walk in the park.

Once again we have people getting offended because they confuse criticism of their government with criticism of their country.

If anyone wanted to organise a hanging party for John Howard I'd help pull on the rope.

And another thing...

If the Germans had won WW1, or even achieved an honourable armistice we'd have never had had WW2.

Bleddy interfering Yanks...

Thank you for your comments, gentlemen. I will now leave you to your "bashing the US" thread.

Enjoy yourselves in all your self-righteous indignation.

If you watch at 2:30 minutes you will see the flag waved from behind the tractor.

After they shoot the first guy then at 2:30 minutes the guy behind the tractor waves a flag frantically after seeing the first guy shot.

You can tell obviously that the copter is some distance off. Obvious because the first burst they did not have the laser sight set. They fired & you see it did not make the man in the the field even jump or run. He was not even aware of the shots fired. That was at 2:11

Notice the guys are not scattering for cover as they do not even know they are fired upon. He walks back to the tractor.

At 2:29 he is killed as he walks away from the tractor. Then at 2:30-2:32 the 2nd guy seeing what has happened waves the flag like crazy out the left side of the tractor...He is then also shot.

How about at 3:05 is it not obvious to anyone the man crawling away from the truck is wounded? Even the gunners know it.

Then what?

It is one film in many films.

As for heat etc. They are using standard night vision not heat vision. But the tractor looks pretty plain with the smoke/exhaust stack going straight up & the blade out front.

In any case as I said just another in many videos.

But my original intent was....What is it good for?

Three men a truck a tractor & a car.

Someone throws a pipe/weapon/who knows what in a field

Three dead in spite of #2 waving & #3 crawling

Good days work?

That's a real stretch on you part saying the guy was frantically waving a flag. Looks clear enough that he is frantically searching for something and threw back a tarp of some kind. But 100% he wasn't waving anything back and forth.

I also don't see how you can be so certain that it is a tractor with smoke stack with plow blades. Can you post a photo found on the Internet of a tractor with a smokestack?

I agree about killing the wounded guy in the field. I would have preferred it if the insurgent bastard suffered in that field all night, bleeding to death slowly than being put out of is misery. Why be so humane with these animals?

You repeat the very cliched, "We saved Europe and if it wasn't for us you'd be licking the toes of the Japs/Germans now". line. American tourists use that line to try to get better service in restaurants or any other time they have a complaint such as, "Why can't these Froggies speak good ol' 'Merican English? We saved them from Hitler." or "Why can't these Kiwis drive on the right side of the road? We saved their asses in the Pacific, dang it all."

from "america Without A Strong Middle Class?":

With America humbled by an empty bank account, will China start looking aggressively at SE Asia as a food and water source? I think it's possible.

Will Indonesia consider Australia's resources as tempting? Without American support, could Australia defy an Indonesian assault? I think not.

So many dominoes to ponder.

It sounds like you acknowledge the ass-saving but just don't like being reminded of it. Yes, I know Kiwis are not Aussies but in the context of being saved or protected in the Pacific they are pretty much the same.

I agree it's bad form to remind people they have been saved. But it's also bad form to forget it. So it's a wash.

Here's my favorite American tourist-French waiter confrontation:

American Tourist to rude French waiter: Sprechen sie Deutsch?

French Waiter: Non!

American Tourist: You're welcome.

btw - I spent about a week in and around Paris and never ran into any rude people, waiters or otherwise.

The freedoms each of you enjoy to make posts such as these were won by the deaths and injuries of military men and women from all freedom loving countries. You should be thanking them instead of "despising" them, as one of you bright bulbs mentioned earlier.

I have nothing but contempt for your posts, and I am certain you really don't care.

how come you know we don't care? and what kind of freedom have the U.S. invasions of Viet Nam, Panama, Grenada, Iraq and Afghanistan added to our "enjoyment"?

American Tourist to rude French waiter: Sprechen sie Deutsch?

French Waiter: Non!

American Tourist: You're welcome.

The invasion of Western Europe was pretty much a squabble over the scraps. The best of the German forces had been beaten in Russia and North Africa, with the help of borrowed American money I admit, there were a million men tied up in Yugoslavia by Tito's Communists and another huge German army was cut off by the Reds in the Baltic states.

France, Greece and Italy would have probably fallen to local Communists, who formed the main resistance groups against the Germans, as the Russians approached and the English would have stayed across the channel and watched their empire disappear. (Which it did anyway).

That's a real stretch on you part saying the guy was frantically waving a flag. Looks clear enough that he is frantically searching for something and threw back a tarp of some kind. But 100% he wasn't waving anything back and forth.

I also don't see how you can be so certain that it is a tractor with smoke stack with plow blades. Can you post a photo found on the Internet of a tractor with a smokestack?

I agree about killing the wounded guy in the field. I would have preferred it if the insurgent bastard suffered in that field all night, bleeding to death slowly than being put out of is misery. Why be so humane with these animals?

Eh you could be right. Maybe your screen resolves better than mine.

Maybe he is just throwing back a tarp after his buddy was smoked.

Probably uncovering the flux capacitor & headed back to the future.

You may even have your wish as maybe the guy crawling was not killed instantly & died slowly.

But all else aside as I said there are many films & daylight ones at that on the internet if your interested.

Even the blackwater guys like to carry video cams these days.

You will also be pleased that all of them show some kind of obliteration of Non US/CIA/Blackwater personnel only.

As for animals...which ones did you mean?

I guess animal farm rule #6 does not apply eh?

6. No animal shall kill any other animal

........I agree about killing the wounded guy in the field. I would have preferred it if the insurgent bastard suffered in that field all night, bleeding to death slowly than being put out of is misery. Why be so humane with these animals?

How do you know he was an insurgent and not a farmer? Of course you don't, as the statement was designed to incite a reaction, I'm sure.

Why be so humane? Because if you are going to take a moral high ground that enables you to call them animals, you need to follow some rules, like the Geneva convention.

Thank you for your comments, gentlemen. I will now leave you to your "bashing the US" thread.

Enjoy yourselves in all your self-righteous indignation.

I am certainly indignant at US policy and the sometimes sheep-like, sometimes willing, followers of those policies.

However, the only self-righteousness in this thread is from those that feel that the rest of the world should forever be beholden to America because 2 generations ago they FINALLY stepped up to the plate and helped out.

Those sententious people also seem to think that because of America's involvelment in WWll, America is forever above criticism from their allies for whatever atrocities they commit.

Thanks for not participating any more, Chucky, you were diverting attention from the issue at hand.

By the way.....if you think THIS is "bashing the US" , I'll PM you whenever I actually bash, so you can avoid it and the anguish you will feel.

To me this has never been more than a discussion of world events among equals.

Unfortunately chuckd considers our opinions a lot less equal than his.

I just wish I could get rid of Naam as easily sometimes by slagging off the Germans.

To me this has never been more than a discussion of world events among equals.

Unfortunately chuckd considers our opinions a lot less equal than his.

I just wish I could get rid of Naam as easily sometimes by slagging off the Germans.

There's one of those Animal Farm references again, albeit slightly adjusted for the topic at hand. Clever man, Scea.

........I agree about killing the wounded guy in the field. I would have preferred it if the insurgent bastard suffered in that field all night, bleeding to death slowly than being put out of is misery. Why be so humane with these animals?

How do you know he was an insurgent and not a farmer? Of course you don't, as the statement was designed to incite a reaction, I'm sure.

Why be so humane? Because if you are going to take a moral high ground that enables you to call them animals, you need to follow some rules, like the Geneva convention.

I wish the US had followed the Geneva Conventions better. All enemy fighters found in a warzone dressed like civilians can be shot on the spot. Any we capture wouldn't be sent home until the war had ended. They also would not be given better conditions than our own prisoners back home like they are in Gitmo. Just a barbed-wire area with some wooden barracks out in the desert is better than what they are used to living in.

Farmers or insurgent? Like I said, without the back story, we have no way of knowing. But if you guys can jump to conclusions based on what you want to believe, why can't others? Just out of curiousity, what do you imagine that long thing was the "farmer" was burying out in the field at night?

flying - you can try the diversion of making "Back to the Future" jokes all you want but you know very well after looking at the video more carefully that he was not waving a white flag of surrender and that was not a tractor (btw - I'm still waiting for that tractor photo).

It is quite interesting that opponents to the war think, a) the US is always guilty and; the "enemy" is always an innocent victim. At least I can - and have on this thread - admitted that the US has done wrong.

As have their enemies. (Done wrong).

The point of the more informed peaceniks isn't that the US has been wronged it's they have gone about avenging it the wrong way.

The American taxpayer is paying for the occupation of a country that had nothing to do with the 9/11 attack and is now accepted to have been no threat to the US.

If these troops used in the Gulf Warhad gone into Afghanistan they would have had Bin Laiden hanging up by his scrawny balls over a slow fire in no time. And what was wrong with buying him? The former Afghan government (you never hear the Taliban called that these days for some reason) would have handed him over if approached in the right manner.

And what if he has been in Pakistan all along, how many billion has the US thrown at those thieves for no result? And how many terrorists have been created from all this bullshit? Did you watch the Bali bombers trial? Terrorists coming into court every day in spotless white robes, punching the air and howling that God is great? All getting full TV coverage by the Western media. All those little Muslim boys watching agog with admiration.

Lunacy, f###ing lunacy.

It is quite interesting that opponents to the war think, a) the US is always guilty and; the "enemy" is always an innocent victim. At least I can - and have on this thread - admitted that the US has done wrong.

You know that is a funny statement for a number of reasons.

1st none say the enemy is always a innocent victim...But what has been shown by sheer numbers alone is that the collateral damages are far & above any *good* result. Also it has been said more than once....None here seem to be anti defence but,

This thing in Iraq/afghanistan/pakistan is not war, it is an ill advised occupation that will fail ultimately. Wasting life & limb on both sides needlessly. Think not? Want to bet on it?

2nd It is not the US per se that is always guilty & that is the distinction I have tried to make a number of times.

There is a disconnect going on here between the US & the US govt/military. The govt/military has in recent years become more & more disconnected from its people who it supposedly serves. They seem to forget who is the horse & who is the jockey.

Through these irresponsible actions they help bankrupt the country even quicker. Both morally & financially.

Who Wants War?

Responses to attacks on our soil should be swift and brief. Wars we fight should always be defensive, clearly defined and Constitutional. The Bush Doctrine of targeting potential enemies before they do anything to us is dangerously vague and easily abused. There is nothing left to win in Afghanistan and everything to lose. Today's military actions are yet another futile exercise in nation building and have nothing to do with our nation's security, or with 9/11. Most experts agree that Bin Laden and anyone remotely connected to 9/11 left Afghanistan long ago, but our troops remain. The pressures of the war racketeers need to be put in check before we are brought to our knees by them. Unfortunately, it will require a mighty effort by the people to get the leadership to finally listen.

Full Article At Link Above

........I agree about killing the wounded guy in the field. I would have preferred it if the insurgent bastard suffered in that field all night, bleeding to death slowly than being put out of is misery. Why be so humane with these animals?

How do you know he was an insurgent and not a farmer? Of course you don't, as the statement was designed to incite a reaction, I'm sure.

Why be so humane? Because if you are going to take a moral high ground that enables you to call them animals, you need to follow some rules, like the Geneva convention.

no sense to argue with arrogant àssholes wearing the blinkers of righteousness

The American taxpayer is paying for the occupation of a country that had nothing to do with the 9/11 attack and is now accepted to have been no threat to the US.

Actually, David Kay, the final weapons inspector who concluded there were no stockpiles of WMDs also said that Saddam was even more of a threat than they thought.

If these troops used in the Gulf Warhad gone into Afghanistan they would have had Bin Laiden hanging up by his scrawny balls over a slow fire in no time. And what was wrong with buying him? The former Afghan government (you never hear the Taliban called that these days for some reason) would have handed him over if approached in the right manner.

Were the Taliban really a government in the traditional sense of the word? Did they collect taxes and provide services for the population? No, not really.

Probably the biggest obstacle in Afghanistan that isn't a problem in Iraq is terrain. The center and south of Iraq is mainly flat whereas Afghanistan where the action is is mountainous. So there would be no guarantee that if the troops sent to Iraq in March 2003 would have caught bin Laden who was reported to have been in Pakistan for more than a year before the Iraq War began.

And what if he has been in Pakistan all along, how many billion has the US thrown at those thieves for no result? And how many terrorists have been created from all this bullshit? Did you watch the Bali bombers trial? Terrorists coming into court every day in spotless white robes, punching the air and howling that God is great? All getting full TV coverage by the Western media. All those little Muslim boys watching agog with admiration.

Lunacy, f###ing lunacy.

I take it you don't think it's a good idea to give Khalid Sheikh Mohammed and other 9/11 plotters their day in civilian court in NYC?

You know that is a funny statement for a number of reasons.

1st none say the enemy is always a innocent victim...But what has been shown by sheer numbers alone is that the collateral damages are far & above any *good* result.

True, I don't hear that the enemy is innocent. But I do hear how America and Israel are guilty of so much but not one peep from you guys about atrocities committed by Palestinians or insurgents in Iraq/Afghanistan/Pakistan. Silence implies you think they're innocent. For example, calling it an anomoly that an Israeli PM would receive a Nobel Peace Prize but ignoring the fact that he received it along with Arafat the terrorist.

Do you ever notice that reports of attacks by the insurgents/terrorists never refer to "collateral damage"? Because there is no such thing for them. They are TARGETING innocent people intentionally.

no sense to argue with arrogant àssholes wearing the blinkers of righteousness

He was replying to my post so can it be assumed you are calling me an "arrogant àsshole wearing the blinkers of righteousness"?

He was replying to my post so can it be assumed you are calling me an "arrogant àsshole wearing the blinkers of righteousness"?

you have my permission to assume whatever you want. you are the big "assumer" in the eyes of the LORD as most of your ridiculous postings prove.

He was replying to my post so can it be assumed you are calling me an "arrogant àsshole wearing the blinkers of righteousness"?

you have my permission to assume whatever you want. you are the big "assumer" in the eyes of the LORD as most of your ridiculous postings prove.

My postings are ridiculous? People here make wild claims and assumptions (the Nanking bit, 700,000 killed in Iraq by American troops, clearly waving a flag, etc...) and I challenge them with a different viewpoint often backed up by links and sources. That makes my posts ridiculous in your eyes. Whatever.

Actually, David Kay, the final weapons inspector who concluded there were no stockpiles of WMDs also said that Saddam was even more of a threat than they thought.

Lay down with dogs & you get fleas

David must be referring to the time when Saddam decided he would sell oil in Euros removing the peg to the US dollar.

He was not long for the world after that.

I am not saying he was not an animal in his own right.

But he was the US's animal for quite a while or at least while it suited their purposes.

He was replying to my post so can it be assumed you are calling me an "arrogant àsshole wearing the blinkers of righteousness"?

you have my permission to assume whatever you want. you are the big "assumer" in the eyes of the LORD as most of your ridiculous postings prove.

My postings are ridiculous? People here make wild claims and assumptions (the Nanking bit, 700,000 killed in Iraq by American troops, clearly waving a flag, etc...) and I challenge them with a different viewpoint often backed up by links and sources. That makes my posts ridiculous in your eyes. Whatever.

My posts are, to you, "BS" and "not worth reading". An allegation of "wild claims" would have been better.

You know that is a funny statement for a number of reasons.

1st none say the enemy is always a innocent victim...But what has been shown by sheer numbers alone is that the collateral damages are far & above any *good* result.

True, I don't hear that the enemy is innocent. But I do hear how America and Israel are guilty of so much but not one peep from you guys about atrocities committed by Palestinians or insurgents in Iraq/Afghanistan/Pakistan. Silence implies you think they're innocent. For example, calling it an anomoly that an Israeli PM would receive a Nobel Peace Prize but ignoring the fact that he received it along with Arafat the terrorist.

Do you ever notice that reports of attacks by the insurgents/terrorists never refer to "collateral damage"? Because there is no such thing for them. They are TARGETING innocent people intentionally.

......

Not at all. I can't see that implication anywhere in what has been written here. Again, you make assumptions.

Freedom fighters are freedom fighters if their agenda assists the US, but "terrorists" if they fight the US or Israel.

The Taliban managed to change from freedom fighters to terrorists, which is unusual because it usually works the other way.

The Taliban managed to change from freedom fighters to terrorists, which is unusual because it usually works the other way.

where's the proof that the Taliban are terrorists and not freedom fighters who want to kick the ass of invaders as they did before?

Freedom fighters are freedom fighters if their agenda assists the US, but "terrorists" if they fight the US or Israel.

i second that wholeheartedly!

The Taliban managed to change from freedom fighters to terrorists, which is unusual because it usually works the other way.

where's the proof that the Taliban are terrorists and not freedom fighters who want to kick the ass of invaders as they did before?

You taking me too literally Doctor, I'm trying to be facetious.