Ed Visa Crackdown

[lopburi3]

Well, I do not suppose that anyone here can cite a case where an extension was actually rejected due to one of these pop-quizes? Any takers? I have not ever heard of this being the case. Is it not a bit silly to get ones pants in a twist about something that has yet to happen; that is, unless someone can be specific about this ever happening?

As this only seems to have been done in the last two workdays and normally Immigration provides a caution prior to taking action I would expect there to be a period of warnings before any hammer is dropped.

[cup-O-coffee]

As this only seems to have been done in the last two workdays and normally Immigration provides a caution prior to taking action I would expect there to be a period of warnings before any hammer is dropped.

Seemingly enough; and with that I am curious if any of the people being tested had noticed the officers giving any indications of making notes in the computer, or scribbling notes on a paper that the particular person had been tested and been warned.

Have there also been any RED stamps put on the passport page that state along the lines that "The Foreigner holding the ED visa has been tested and given unsatisfactory results, and therefore may be refused an extension on their next trip to immigration in 90 days."?

No note-taking?

No data entered?

No warning stamps placed in the passport?

Again: silly!

[KayT]

What school do you attend KayT.

Unfortunately due to certain restrictions within this forum I am not able to answer this question as much as I would like to.I do know I wont be spending any more of my hard earnt money at this particular school no matter what they offer unless the text material changes dramatically.

Thanks for asking anyway

[wannabe-expat]

Only in Thailand can you get a Erectile Dysfunction visa.

[phetaroi]

then they CANNOT deny you an ED visa extension without treading on international human rights that protect you from discrimination, racism, etc.

In what international treaty does it say anyone has the international human right of getting an ED visa to Thailand?

[Tod Daniels]

they CANNOT deny you an ED visa extension without treading on international human rights that protect you from discrimination, racism, etc.

Actually "cup-O-coffee", I believe you are in error with your grand standing about any international human rights violation(s).

As has been quoted from the MFA website in this thread:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Ed-Visa-Exte...25#entry3218589 by the poster known as "jazzbo": "The granting of change of type of visa and extension of stay is at the discretion of the immigration officer".

I'll spell it out for you in laymans terms (I'll try to use small words), "the individual immigrations officer you are dealing with has GREAT latitude to approve OR deny any change of visa status or extension of stay based only on their opinion". (Sorry, there are some big words in there, but I did my best )

It has also been mentioned in this current thread here;

The officer is not a law unto his or her self. The way the law is written, once they put on their Police uniform and sit down at their desk in the Immigration office, in that the Immigration Department has thus bestowed upon them the Department's inherent authority, they pretty much are.

You can bluster all you want, but it is my experience after helping many, many people secure their visas, as well as spending more time at Immigrations than is mentally healthy; the more pompous, self-righteous, and/or obstinately demanding a foreigner becomes, the less likely they are to actually achieve their objective out there. (This is my experience and your mileage may vary.)

As I said in the last post I put on the thread I started about Changwattana 'testing' students applying for their 90 day ED extensions, I could see NO evidence of this, in the 2+hours I was out there scoping it out. It seemed to be completely business as usual.

If I have found anything living here in the glorious "Land 'O Thais the last 5 years; it is Thai bureaucracy is indeed a fickle beast during the best of times.

FWIW; "we ain't in Kansas anymore Toto"..

I encourage ANY thai language students who are going to get their extension anytime soon to post their experience so we can have factual first hand information about this alleged occurrence.

[male]

Today I was told, that if I can't speak Thai after 3 months, they will not extend my visa... She asked me about things, that are not even in the book(I had it with me)...

[phetaroi]

After rereading many of the posts in this thread, it seems to me that what could be happening is that the Thai government may be simply cracking down on people who are here under this one particular false pretense.

I am here on a "retirement visa", and there is no requirement that I learn Thai. I have begun taking lessons. I intend to take it slow and easy to enjoy it.

On the other hand, it sounds as if some people use the Thai Ed Visa as a way to be in Thailand, with no serious intent to truly learn the language. And it sounds as if the Thai government is saying, "Whoa...that's not the intent of the visa. If you are a serious enough student to get a Thai visa for studying the language, then you should be able to make a certain degree of progress in some fixed amount of time.

It sounds as if there are many people skirting the law. I don't see anything wrong with the approach it sounds like the office was using to assure the visas are being used appropriately, although I would have a concern that it be balanced and fair and somewhat consistent.

I am reminded of how often on TV.com the Thai government is criticized for not following the law. Now it appears that it may be doing so and some people are complaining. As I have said before, you can't have it both ways.

I also have to say something else, and I know it will be criticized. When I went to the Immigration Office and also to the American Embassy for a paper, I looked at the cross-section of Americans/Westerners there. I'll be honest, I was not impressed. I know that you can't judge everything by appearances, but goodness...quite a few of the people there looked almost as bad as street people. And it is sometimes these folks who think they are holding up the economy of Thailand. That's like pissing in the ocean.

[canuckamuck]

Today I was told, that if I can't speak Thai after 3 months, they will not extend my visa... She asked me about things, that are not even in the book(I had it with me)...

What sort of book did you have with you? Where you given a test? Did you fail the test? Was this your first extension?

[male]

Today I was told, that if I can't speak Thai after 3 months, they will not extend my visa... She asked me about things, that are not even in the book(I had it with me)...

What sort of book did you have with you? Where you given a test? Did you fail the test? Was this your first extension?

The book from Thai language school I attend. The lady at immigration started asking me questions in Thai, I didn't understand much and couldn't answer most of them, so obviously I failed the test... It was my 4th extension.

[Tod Daniels]

Today I was told, that if I can't speak Thai after 3 months, they will not extend my visa... She asked me about things, that are not even in the book(I had it with me)...

Let me see if I understand you as I want to be clear.

You state in another post that this was your FOURTH extension, correct?

Meaning you came in on a single entry non-o type ED visa which is good for 90 days. Then you've received 90 day extensions of stay for 4 times in-country; making for a total of over a year "learning thai". Yet you couldn't understand or even answer her questions, because as you put it, what she asked "wasn't in the book".

Please tell me the first twelve vocabulary words in your thai book aren’t; Pen, Pencil, Book, This, What, What is this, Table, Chair, Light, Wall, Floor and Room.. ...

[wintermute]

Today I was told, that if I can't speak Thai after 3 months, they will not extend my visa... She asked me about things, that are not even in the book(I had it with me)...

So how do they know they tested you once before already and how would they know when to reject you if you fail the next time? What is the criteria?

Lots of rumors here very little substance.

[clockworkorange]

After rereading many of the posts in this thread, it seems to me that what could be happening is that the Thai government may be simply cracking down on people who are here under this one particular false pretense.

I am here on a "retirement visa", and there is no requirement that I learn Thai. I have begun taking lessons. I intend to take it slow and easy to enjoy it.

On the other hand, it sounds as if some people use the Thai Ed Visa as a way to be in Thailand, with no serious intent to truly learn the language. And it sounds as if the Thai government is saying, "Whoa...that's not the intent of the visa. If you are a serious enough student to get a Thai visa for studying the language, then you should be able to make a certain degree of progress in some fixed amount of time.

It sounds as if there are many people skirting the law. I don't see anything wrong with the approach it sounds like the office was using to assure the visas are being used appropriately, although I would have a concern that it be balanced and fair and somewhat consistent.

I am reminded of how often on TV.com the Thai government is criticized for not following the law. Now it appears that it may be doing so and some people are complaining. As I have said before, you can't have it both ways.

I also have to say something else, and I know it will be criticized. When I went to the Immigration Office and also to the American Embassy for a paper, I looked at the cross-section of Americans/Westerners there. I'll be honest, I was not impressed. I know that you can't judge everything by appearances, but goodness...quite a few of the people there looked almost as bad as street people. And it is sometimes these folks who think they are holding up the economy of Thailand. That's like pissing in the ocean.

Very true. Well said. All Thailand is doing is sceening out those who are trying to stay under false pretences. People who are serious about learning the language will obviously be able to answer simple questions after months of study and have nothing to worry about. Others who just use these visas as a way to skirt around the law deserve to get weeded out.

As you say, Thailand has a right to be selective about who is allowed to stay.

Edited December 23, 2009 by clockworkorange

[clockworkorange]

Let me see if I understand you as I want to be clear.

You state in another post that this was your FOURTH extension, correct?

Meaning you came in on a single entry non-o type ED visa which is good for 90 days. Then you've received 90 day extensions of stay for 4 times in-country; making for a total of over a year "learning thai". Yet you couldn't understand or even answer her questions, because as you put it, what she asked "wasn't in the book".

Please tell me the first twelve vocabulary words in your thai book aren't; Pen, Pencil, Book, This, What, What is this, Table, Chair, Light, Wall, Floor and Room.. ...

You beat me to it. Trying to sound convincing about an extension of a student visa, while relying on a phrase book to answer simple questions after a year of study???

Not surprising that they are clamping down on this ruse.

[Jingthing]

As you say, Thailand has a right to be selective about who is allowed to stay.

I agree. They have that right. But they can't be all that selective. I'm here.

[DegenFarang]

As 1 poster suggested,maybe the immigration are checking the younger breed here in Pattaya.I can never understand how so mnay young people are actualy living in Pattaya unless they robbed a bank.Would be interesting to here from this young brigade on how they live here and where they earn their money.Noticed more holiday makers that are young and big mongers too,so why dont they go to Spain/Portugal/Greece/Turkey,are you lot getting lazy too lol.

There are lots of ways to make money from anywhere with an internet connection - I suspect many of those young people fall into this group. I know I do. As for why Thailand, cost of living is a big factor. Money goes a lot farther here than it does in Europe, especially if you are American, meaning you have to work less and get to party more. Easier to get laid here too

Edited December 23, 2009 by DegenFarang

[DegenFarang]

Let me see if I understand you as I want to be clear.

You state in another post that this was your FOURTH extension, correct?

Meaning you came in on a single entry non-o type ED visa which is good for 90 days. Then you've received 90 day extensions of stay for 4 times in-country; making for a total of over a year "learning thai". Yet you couldn't understand or even answer her questions, because as you put it, what she asked "wasn't in the book".

Please tell me the first twelve vocabulary words in your thai book aren't; Pen, Pencil, Book, This, What, What is this, Table, Chair, Light, Wall, Floor and Room.. ...

You beat me to it. Trying to sound convincing about an extension of a student visa, while relying on a phrase book to answer simple questions after a year of study???

Not surprising that they are clamping down on this ruse.

Think you misunderstood him. Those are the first 12 vocab words in the Walen School book. I only attended the school for two months but wouldn't surprise me if after a year of study I failed the test too, especially if they gear it toward people who have been studying Thai for a year.

Edited December 23, 2009 by DegenFarang

[DegenFarang]

Today I was told, that if I can't speak Thai after 3 months, they will not extend my visa... She asked me about things, that are not even in the book(I had it with me)...

That sucks. Did they put any kind of stamp in your passport or anything?

I guess it wouldn't be hard for them to simply start a database of everybody on an ED Visa and then go into that database and note whether you passed or failed - then starting roughly three months from now begin checking everybody applying for an extension against the database. So they could certainly enforce all of this very easily without our knowledge.

[Tod Daniels]

Think you misunderstood him.

I don't believe I misunderstood him at all. .. His post clearly states he's on his FOURTH frickin' 90 day extension. .. As he mentioned he had his thai language textbook with him I took a tongue in cheek jab at a well known school’s initial vocabulary. (But I give "DegenFarang" points for catching the not so oblique reference ). I'm also reasonably sure while holding up a pen the immigrations officer is not going to say; "This is a pencil, yes?"

Doin the math, forgetting the initial 90 days he got when he entered on the ED visa the first time, and using only the subsequent 90 day extensions works out about like this;

4 times 90 = 360 days,

360 divided by 7 = 51+ weeks,

51+ times 4 hours = just over 200 study hours (the 4 hours is the MOE minimum weekly requirement for studying thai).

That’s only time spent in class. Certainly living in thailand he might get the chance every now and again to actually practice speaking thai outside the class too.

Now if someone spends that mind wobbling amount of time studying thai yet can't at least carry on a rudimentary conversation, perhaps there is some cause for immigration to question the veracity of their claim to be 'studying thai".

As an aside I spoke to another student today at lunch who said he was ‘threatened’ <-(his word NOT mine) by the immigrations officer at Changwattana to improve his thai or he would be denied another extension in 90 more days, although he got the extension today. I’d take it with a grain of salt, as when I questioned him about it further he seemed to hem and haw about the exact questions he was asked. I am reporting it as semi-newsworthy mostly for shock value.

"DegenFarang" - (kudos for the oh-so quick edit on your earlier post about working illegally here via the internet, the money you make, the hours you work a week and the insightful way you spend all your free time)

edited for sa-pelling

Edited December 23, 2009 by tod-daniels

[DegenFarang]

Think you misunderstood him.

I don't believe I misunderstood him at all. ..

I was talking to clockworkorange - saying that he misunderstood you.

"DegenFarang" - (kudos for the oh-so quick edit on your earlier post about working illegally here via the internet, the money you make, the hours you work a week and the insightful way you spend all your free time)

I never said anything about how much money I make, how many hours I work or how I spend my free time - I just said that I can make money anywhere there is an internet connection (a statement which I never removed). The other comments were about all of the young people living in Pattaya. I do not live in Pattaya nor do I know anybody who does - I was just speculating.

Now if someone spends that mind wobbling amount of time studying thai yet can't at least carry on a rudimentary conversation, perhaps there is some cause for immigration to question the veracity of their claim to be 'studying thai".

Or the quality of the education they are receiving...

Edited December 23, 2009 by DegenFarang

[cup-O-coffee]

they CANNOT deny you an ED visa extension without treading on international human rights that protect you from discrimination, racism, etc.

Actually "cup-O-coffee", I believe you are in error with your grand standing about any international human rights violation(s).

As has been quoted from the MFA website in this thread:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Ed-Visa-Exte...25#entry3218589 by the poster known as "jazzbo": "The granting of change of type of visa and extension of stay is at the discretion of the immigration officer".

I'll spell it out for you in laymans terms (I'll try to use small words), "the individual immigrations officer you are dealing with has GREAT latitude to approve OR deny any change of visa status or extension of stay based only on their opinion". (Sorry, there are some big words in there, but I did my best )

It has also been mentioned in this current thread here;

The officer is not a law unto his or her self. The way the law is written, once they put on their Police uniform and sit down at their desk in the Immigration office, in that the Immigration Department has thus bestowed upon them the Department's inherent authority, they pretty much are.

You can bluster all you want,

but it is my experience after helping many, many people secure their visas, as well as spending more time at Immigrations than is mentally healthy; the more pompous, self-righteous, and/or obstinately demanding a foreigner becomes, the less likely they are to actually achieve their objective out there. (This is my experience and your mileage may vary.)

As I said in the last post I put on the thread I started about Changwattana 'testing' students applying for their 90 day ED extensions, I could see NO evidence of this, in the 2+hours I was out there scoping it out. It seemed to be completely business as usual.

If I have found anything living here in the glorious "Land 'O Thais the last 5 years; it is Thai bureaucracy is indeed a fickle beast during the best of times.

FWIW; "we ain't in Kansas anymore Toto"..

I encourage ANY thai language students who are going to get their extension anytime soon to post their experience so we can have factual first hand information about this alleged occurrence.

Tod, I do not know you, but your snide tone towards me make me think that you are a total knob-head and coward. Are you? If you are allowed to get away with that, then I ask the moderators to allow me the latitude to call out your rude sarcasm, as would be done if this were face to face. Alright? Good!

Right. I went on to read the remainder of the posts up to this point and there still is no answer to my query regarding getting a warning "RED" stamp in the passport at the time that the ED holder is warned. I doubt it will happen. The logic of knowing the Thai system, and the triggering ramifications that this would create makes the odds against this happening insurmountable.

Nor does there seem to be feedback from others on any note taking, or data entering by the officer at the time that this warning is verbally issued. I have alerted several of my customers who went in, before going there.

I now have several customers who have told me about this sort of incident, and they gave me a negative on any note taking or data entering.

They are all studying Thai.

My English students? Already several trips by various customers, but with absolutely NO INTERVIEWS. I think the message is clear.

Again, this entire interview fiasco will blow over, and I am remiss to say that any righteous people who have posted here, singling out the ED visa holder's motives and intentions, or the motives and intentions of language schools, will hard pressed to get any satisfaction when this all blows over.

[Tod Daniels]

Tod, I do not know you, but your snide tone towards me make me think that you are a total knob-head.

HEY I resemble that remark

FYI: Calling me names is not only immature but against this particular forum rule;

4) Not to flame fellow members.

Although for the sake of a possible peace treaty between us; I admit on occasion I stray a little too close to the line myself.

I write in a style which I aptly named "cynically, acerbic and intentionally condescending". I speak this way in person too. I’m sure if you met me it'd take about 10 seconds to glean who I am. Of course my secret identity would be revealed (oh sorry, I post under my real name, darn it ).

BACK ON TOPIC

To answer the questions and/or statements you made further down your post

I have personally have seen:

*NO evidence of either notes being taken about a person’s thai language proficiency (or lack thereof).

*NO data entry done by immigration officials so they could refer to a previous 'testing session' at a subsequent extension application.

*NO 'red warning stamps' from people I spoke with who were questioned ('tested') yet received their extensions.

One thing I am certain of is, as of now, there is NO "official test". In speaking to people who were questioned it seemed to be pretty much basic thai chit-chat which is implemented in a very off the cuff way.

Given the widely disparate methods language schools use to teach thai, it would be hard indeed to assess a students proficiency only on the length of time said student attended a thai language school. It would require a near complete over-haul of the system to create, implement and oversee a testing program like this for 90 day extensions. This isn’t saying it couldn’t be done, only that the cost to do it would possibly outweigh its benefit. Even the test you take at the MOE when applying for a second year in-country extension to continue studying the thai language at a private school is haphazard at best and that’s run by the MOE.

I also 100% wholeheartedly concur with you about students who are enrolled in private language programs other than the thai language. In witnessing the applicants at Changwattana on Monday, they certainly do NOT get the same amount of scrutiny in their extension process.

We can only hope more people who extend their ED visas this coming week will report back...

[Parvis]

Interesting - interesting - all this controversy makes for some good reading for the Immigration Department - when and if they do.

In overall it appears there is a collective agreement that only "Thai language students" and "Thai Language Schools" appear to be targeted by Immigration.

"Kii mii glin men - chai mai?" (from the book of a certain Thai Language School)

Edited December 23, 2009 by Parvis

[MacWalen]

You have obviously learned the meaning of the word so the Walen method must be sticky enough. You can't get it out of your head. What about some more examples? You keep repeating yourself, we would like to hear something new.

We will keep the readers informed. There is no official testing. Nobody from Walen had ever any problems with extending visas either in Bangkok or Pattaya. We will be the first to know if there are indeed any changes.

Walen School - Can't get if out of my head

www.thaiwalen.com

[TCA]

Even the test you take at the MOE when applying for a second year in-country extension to continue studying the thai language at a private school is haphazard at best and that’s run by the MOE.

I haven't heard about this before. Can anyone elaborate as to how and when this works? Does this mean you get three 90 day extensions to your single entry ED visa (on top of your initial 90 days), then MOE testing begins? Is this every 90 days thereafter?

How long can you extend a single entry visa for anyway? I thought it was a case of signing up for a 1 year course to get the visa and presumed you'd need to sign up for another year to get a new one.

I will apply for a new visa for my 2nd year anyway (need a new passport and will be home for a few weeks) but just wondering for future reference.

[DegenFarang]

I don't understand why you guys think enforcement of the warnings will be so difficult. You do realize there is a very long window between the time you hand in your passport and application and when you pick it up again, right? And you are given a number with which to retrieve your passport? Pretty easy for them to enter us into a database when we drop off the passport, then go back to the database after they've given it back to us and enter PASS or FAIL into it. Then when you drop off your passport again in 90 days they look you up - if it says FAIL and you fail again, they don't give you an extension. All of this can easily be done without you having any idea they are doing it. Even the Thai's are smart enough to pull this one off - its not that tricky.

[Parvis]

My dear Walen - I have never objected to the "Walen Method" as you so "loftely" call it.

My objection has always been - how poorly your book has been put together and the arrogance with which you treat all those who in the slightest disagree with you.

This "Kii mii glin men chai mai" is just one example. If I were to encounter an English teaching manual with "Shit stinks, right ?" - I would also consider it inappropriate in an "educational manual".

Edited December 23, 2009 by Parvis

[MacWalen]

It means excrement, the purpose was to teach the word stink or foul-smelling. What better example would you make to teach this word? Old cheese stinks? Old socks? I would like to hear what question you would make, I will consider changing that question if you can give me a better example.

Excrement is not an inappropriate word, do readers agree? Thai people use it, some use it a lot, it is used in many useful words, ' carefull! dog excrement!' so you need to learn it if you want to understand Thai. I have yet another example, have you ever heard 'Farang Kiinok'?

Your definition of an arrogant guy is one who does not agree with you? Must be as I can not see any other justification for you saying that.

You have made some untrue posts in the past and others pointed it out to you quite well already, no need to start the same thing.

Walen School - Some love it, some don't but it works!

www.thaiwalen.com

Edited December 23, 2009 by macwalen

[robblok]

Very good point.I get so fed up of hearing farangs say the thais are trying to stop this and that,but if the farangs werent scammers/criminals/drop outs/drug sellers etc etc then the thai government wouldnt have to keep changing rules.The ed visa has always been a way of staying in Thailand,mainly for the younger farangs and it gets abused

They should just make it easier for younger farang to stay, its easy for old farts already. So i understand why they use the ed visa thing. Anyway if i were to go for an ed visa i would surely study too because i like learning the language.

[MacWalen]

Very good point.I get so fed up of hearing farangs say the thais are trying to stop this and that,but if the farangs werent scammers/criminals/drop outs/drug sellers etc etc then the thai government wouldnt have to keep changing rules.The ed visa has always been a way of staying in Thailand,mainly for the younger farangs and it gets abused

They should just make it easier for younger farang to stay, its easy for old farts already. So i understand why they use the ed visa thing. Anyway if i were to go for an ed visa i would surely study too because i like learning the language.

Great attitude!

Edited December 23, 2009 by macwalen