Following is a link to an editorial written in Investor's Business Daily a few days ago. Provided for your thought only.

It is on topic.

http://www.investors.com/NewsAndAnalysis/A....aspx?id=519013

I've read similar articles Chuck, certainly food for thought.

The rest of the world's (and I use the term loosely, to appease the pedantic among us) hunger for Chinese imports causes many economic and social problems.

I've read similar articles Chuck, certainly food for thought.

The rest of the world's (and I use the term loosely, to appease the pedantic among us) hunger for Chinese imports causes many economic and social problems.

You're right and not....

Many blame the Chinese of what's happening but it's the West that created the demand, not the Chinese. They just produce what the West wants at prices the West are willing to pay for.

And, if the Chinese wouldn't have made those products, another country (or group of countries) would have made them and "we" would blame them.

There will be a time that many goods, now from China, will be made in Africa and/or India and certain low labour countries in South America and/or in a place like Haiti....which is right on the US's doorstep. Watch it, it won't be long.

If it will be as cheap remains to be seen.

LaoPo

Kind of like developed countries with drug addicts, blaming the Afghans and Colombians for growing opium and coca.

Many blame the Chinese of what's happening but it's the West that created the demand, not the Chinese. They just produce what the West wants at prices the West are willing to pay for.

I don't blame them. They are acting like good capitalists. I blame the unions. Their greed drove the price of production too high now the jobs are gone.

Many blame the Chinese of what's happening but it's the West that created the demand, not the Chinese. They just produce what the West wants at prices the West are willing to pay for.

I don't blame them. They are acting like good capitalists. I blame the unions. Their greed drove the price of production too high now the jobs are gone.

C'mon - not the fault of capitalists, as well?

Many blame the Chinese of what's happening but it's the West that created the demand, not the Chinese. They just produce what the West wants at prices the West are willing to pay for.

I don't blame them. They are acting like good capitalists. I blame the unions. Their greed drove the price of production too high now the jobs are gone.

C'mon - not the fault of capitalists, as well?

The Unions get a much larger share of the blame.

Kind of like developed countries with drug addicts, blaming the Afghans and Colombians for growing opium and coca.

Bingo & same-same.

The developed countries should have a long look into the mirror.....no demand, no production.

LaoPo

Many blame the Chinese of what's happening but it's the West that created the demand, not the Chinese. They just produce what the West wants at prices the West are willing to pay for.

I don't blame them. They are acting like good capitalists. I blame the unions. Their greed drove the price of production too high now the jobs are gone.

Unions ? Partly, as there are also many countries without strong unions and in those places, wages and costs went up the sky as well. It's a capitalistic cause...most people want a better home, a new car* I could go on but production was more and more done by fewer people but wages went up the same time.

* Does anyone believe that people who won a substantial lottery prize and who bought a new car, are followed within 2-3 months by their neighbors who are buying a newer and more expensive car also; to show that they have "money" also ?

YES, they do; in my own country they did a research about that phenomenon and proven to be true; unbelievable behavior by people.

LaoPo

Many blame the Chinese of what's happening but it's the West that created the demand, not the Chinese. They just produce what the West wants at prices the West are willing to pay for.

I don't blame them. They are acting like good capitalists. I blame the unions. Their greed drove the price of production too high now the jobs are gone.

Unions ? Partly, as there are also many countries without strong unions and in those places, wages and costs went up the sky as well. It's a capitalistic cause...most people want a better home, a new car* I could go on but production was more and more done by fewer people but wages went up the same time.

* Does anyone believe that people who won a substantial lottery prize and who bought a new car, are followed within 2-3 months by their neighbors who are buying a newer and more expensive car also; to show that they have "money" also ?

YES, they do; in my own country they did a research about that phenomenon and proven to be true; unbelievable behavior by people.

LaoPo

when i was a child the called that "keeping up with the jones" funny how jones has turned into a different meaning today.

Many blame the Chinese of what's happening but it's the West that created the demand, not the Chinese. They just produce what the West wants at prices the West are willing to pay for.

I don't blame them. They are acting like good capitalists. I blame the unions. Their greed drove the price of production too high now the jobs are gone.

Unions ? Partly, as there are also many countries without strong unions and in those places, wages and costs went up the sky as well. It's a capitalistic cause...most people want a better home, a new car* I could go on but production was more and more done by fewer people but wages went up the same time.

* Does anyone believe that people who won a substantial lottery prize and who bought a new car, are followed within 2-3 months by their neighbors who are buying a newer and more expensive car also; to show that they have "money" also ?

YES, they do; in my own country they did a research about that phenomenon and proven to be true; unbelievable behavior by people.

LaoPo

when i was a child the called that "keeping up with the jones" funny how jones has turned into a different meaning today.

I didn't know that expression but I understand the meaning

LaoPo

In Thailand they call it "keeping up with the Somchais".

Didn't we hear all this about the Japanese and their 1,000 year plan a very short time ago? The Chinese have fought one another and blown it over and over again all through history.

It is not over until the fat American lady sings!

Your beloved America is in a steady decline. Fancy and illusion will never keep it afloat.

Kishore Mahbubani is a New York success story who four years ago relocated to East Asia, to the National University of Singapore, where he is Dean and Professor in the Practice of Public Policy (see link below).

Very recently Dr. Mahburani said:

   "I cannot see a scenario where America and Europe cannot compete with the rest of the world. It's impossible [to foresee]. You have the world's best universities. You have the world's best companies. You have tremendous [human] resources in America and Europe. I don't see how you possibly not be able to compete with China and India."  

The quote is from a discussion between Dr. Mahbubani and Ellen L. Frost, Professor at the Institute of International Strategic Studies of the Pentagon's National Defense University. Dr. Mahbubani points out much that is positive about the growth of East Asia and of the People's Republic of China, as does Dr. Frost. 

http://www.cfr.org/publication/15636/can_a...ws_service.html

It's also noted that the Prime Minister of the People's Republic of China, Wen Jaibao, who might be the most decent and honest official of the Communist Party of China, has publicly identified the PRC's "four uns" that threaten China's economy: "unstable, unbalanced, uncoordinated, unsustainable." (In 1989 a younger Wen Jiabao supported the student protesters in Tienaman Square, and their mass of supporters in Beijing, and has lived the tell of it.)

http://www.cfr.org/about/meetings/projects...by=2=filter=271

Do you know the name Stephen Roach? He's presently Chief of Morgan Stanley Asia. Back in the US during the 1990s Roach called Alan Greenspan a "serial bubble blower" and, in 2006, spoke forcefully and repeatedly of how the sub-prime banking practices in the US constituted a serious threat to the economy. Roach today considers Wen Jiabao to be a man of good judgement:

http://www.books.foreignpolicy.com/categor...inancial_crisis

Also recommended: Blake Houndshell, Managing Editor of Foreign Policy magazine published by the private, non-partisan Council on Foreign Relations in NYC, who recently wrote of East Asia, "The region's rise is hardly written in the stars."   

Excellent, informed post. Thank you.

I've read similar articles Chuck, certainly food for thought.

The rest of the world's (and I use the term loosely, to appease the pedantic among us) hunger for Chinese imports causes many economic and social problems.

You're right and not....

Many blame the Chinese of what's happening but it's the West that created the demand, not the Chinese. They just produce what the West wants at prices the West are willing to pay for.

And, if the Chinese wouldn't have made those products, another country (or group of countries) would have made them and "we" would blame them.

There will be a time that many goods, now from China, will be made in Africa and/or India and certain low labour countries in South America and/or in a place like Haiti....which is right on the US's doorstep. Watch it, it won't be long.

If it will be as cheap remains to be seen.

LaoPo

This is correct. The only thing missing is the Chinese figured this out long ago, hence their incredible investment in Africa and South & Central america. The goods will come from there, but the Chinese will own the factories.

This is correct. The only thing missing is the Chinese figured this out long ago, hence their incredible investment in Africa and South & Central america. The goods will come from there, but the Chinese will own the factories.

I'm not denying that and is already truth. The point is I don't understand your smilie, since the French, Belgians, British, Dutch, even Germans and Italians, Spanish and Portuguese came there first, hundreds of years ago and in many countries they speak French (France/Belgium roots)...so WHY would the Chinese eventually own and control these factories ?

No need to give an answer, right?

But, btw, I know of many adventurous Dutch flower growers who invested heavily in countries in the east of Africa and built schools, hospitals and roads also; not just in their own interest but also in the interest of local people who now have a better income, schooling and health opportunities.

The Chinese do the same, why blame them; because they realized the importance of Africa and it's resources better than the colonizing countries?

Why not blame the western countries exploiting those countries in a shameful way and give them a ?

I think the old colonizing countries, including my own, are to be blamed; they had many decades long opportunities of stepping in and reform, re-educate and re-invest...but they (most of them) did nothing but explore and profit apart from sending aid in the form of money and more money which disappeared in the pockets of so many dictators if there were food and other disasters.

Look what happend to such a rich country like Mr. Mugabe's...that deserves a big

Maybe the Chinese understood better and more clever?

LaoPo

Didn't we hear all this about the Japanese and their 1,000 year plan a very short time ago? The Chinese have fought one another and blown it over and over again all through history.

It is not over until the fat American lady sings!

Your beloved America is in a steady decline. Fancy and illusion will never keep it afloat.

Kishore Mahbubani is a New York success story who four years ago relocated to East Asia, to the National University of Singapore, where he is Dean and Professor in the Practice of Public Policy (see link below).

Very recently Dr. Mahburani said:

   "I cannot see a scenario where America and Europe cannot compete with the rest of the world. It's impossible [to foresee]. You have the world's best universities. You have the world's best companies. You have tremendous [human] resources in America and Europe. I don't see how you possibly not be able to compete with China and India."  

The quote is from a discussion between Dr. Mahbubani and Ellen L. Frost, Professor at the Institute of International Strategic Studies of the Pentagon's National Defense University. Dr. Mahbubani points out much that is positive about the growth of East Asia and of the People's Republic of China, as does Dr. Frost. 

http://www.cfr.org/publication/15636/can_a...ws_service.html

It's also noted that the Prime Minister of the People's Republic of China, Wen Jaibao, who might be the most decent and honest official of the Communist Party of China, has publicly identified the PRC's "four uns" that threaten China's economy: "unstable, unbalanced, uncoordinated, unsustainable." (In 1989 a younger Wen Jiabao supported the student protesters in Tienaman Square, and their mass of supporters in Beijing, and has lived the tell of it.)

http://www.cfr.org/about/meetings/projects...by=2=filter=271

Do you know the name Stephen Roach? He's presently Chief of Morgan Stanley Asia. Back in the US during the 1990s Roach called Alan Greenspan a "serial bubble blower" and, in 2006, spoke forcefully and repeatedly of how the sub-prime banking practices in the US constituted a serious threat to the economy. Roach today considers Wen Jiabao to be a man of good judgement:

http://www.books.foreignpolicy.com/categor...inancial_crisis

Also recommended: Blake Houndshell, Managing Editor of Foreign Policy magazine published by the private, non-partisan Council on Foreign Relations in NYC, who recently wrote of East Asia, "The region's rise is hardly written in the stars."   

I'm not sure where you want to go with this post and what you are saying other than the info?

I'm following Professor Kishore Mahbubani for many years.

I have to correct you since it looks like, the way you write "a New York success story who four years ago relocated to East Asia" as if he is from America.

He's from Singapore and born and educated there also. His Indian parents were originally from (now) Pakistan and moved via India to Singapore.

I went to a seminar by him last year and he's a wonderful, kind, intelligent and also witty man; highly to be respected.

He's a great thinker and has many followers.

However, I can't see any realistic follow-up when he said that he can't see why America and Europe cannot compete with India and China.

Again he's great thinker, economist and an even greater philosopher, but here he lacks insight in reality since there are many factors in place which prevent such a competition, labor intensive production concerned, such as fixed maximum labor hours in the west, social securities, taxes, wages, housing & living costs, skills and many more.

If he's talking certain services, IT and high tech manufacturing, for instance, that would be an option but not labor intensive products like shoes (and many other products), now heavily protected by the EU countries and US with high import duties.

Further I agree with you what China's main threats are concerned: "unstable, unbalanced, uncoordinated, unsustainable."....BUT I'm not sure whether you took these words from Premier Wen Jiabao's mouth or from Stephen Roach's mouth; see below* Maybe they met each other ?

That's exactly why I said on many occasions that China is not ready yet to roll into full democracy, as known in the West.

It will take AT LEAST another 20 -40 (maybe even 50) years to come.

It's is an Utopia to think that that would be possible within the mere 30 years after China opened-up in the late '70's when Deng Xiaoping unlocked the iron gates, gradually, after Mao's death in 1976.

Westerners are impatient if it comes to China and it's politics and Communistic Party's iron rulings and maybe correctly so but how long did it take for so many western countries to have a full and free democracy?

How long for America ?...since the colored people were allowed to universities (apart from the HBCUs) ? How long for France, Britain, Holland, Belgium, Italy, Portugal, leaving their colonies and "handing" them back their Independency ?

"Thank you Master, I am so happy for you to give me back my own country....?"

It's no place here for summing all the bad steps our previous governments did to their own citizens as well as abroad but let's be fair to the long road China still has to go before we slap ourselves on our own shoulders.

If the Chinese government would set a full democracy in place tomorrow we would see the greatest civil war (dozens in fact) the world has ever seen which would affect the world's economy in such a large scale it would bring down the entire world economy on it's knees for many years to come.

Nobody wants that; the only way for China to come out to a democracy is gradually and step-by-step.

There is NO other way.

And to answer your last question, yes, I know about Stephen Roach but there are many more out there I could posts and links about.

But Mr. Roach isn't exactly known for his optimistic views, au contraire dear Publicus; he's a follower of negativism (with a blink ) but he was correct in late 2004 when he foresaw major and serious problems for the US.

Personally, I believe in the elasticity of mind and power of the Chinese population, whatever happened in their lives and believe me, I have heard so many stories from family members in the Mao era that many here wouldn't even want to have a nightmare about them.

Yet, they speak without bitterness of those dark decades without access to proper food and housing or jobs, you name it, and are SO happy with the present situation that they are able to travel freely, go on -short- holidays and have an ocean of fresh food available they never had access to in the dark periods.

A LOT has improved; but give them time to improve much further.

They still don't have as many cars per 100 people as in the US or Europe, Australia, NZ or elsewhere...

* "Although China’s economy is strong on the surface, according to Roach, a deeper look shows an unbalanced, unstable, uncoordinated, and unsustainable economy."

From: http://asiasociety.org/business-economics/...-look-next-asia

LaoPo

I posted that the words "unstable, unbalanced, uncoordinated, unsustainable" were stated publicly by PRC Premier Wen Jai Bao (at the World Economic Forum). I quoted Mr. Roach only later in the post in respect to the US and I made reference to Mr. Roach's opinion of Premier Wen in this respect. I provided links which presumably were read before reply posts were made.

Your link should be read by everyone interested in this matter. Your link also makes clear that Mr. Roach was referring to the words of Premier Wen Jai Bao at the World Economic Forum that the "four uns" of the PRC economy are "unstable, unbalanced, uncoordinated, unsustainable." These words were stated at the Forum by Premier Wen, not Stephen Roach. Mr. Roach grants Premier Wen credit for stating the facts and the truth and, in his own statements which can be read in your link, Mr. Roach builds on Premier Wen's frank and open assessment of the PRC economy.

More broadly, the majority of university students and young people I know the best state (eventually) that they hate the Communist Party of China, that they happily would separate their prospering province from the PRC to become both a democracy and economy in the nature of Taiwan, Singapore and, as a backup position, would settle for the freedom enjoyed by the Special Administrative Region of Hong Kong, with which Beijing tampers at its own risk of destroying the goose that lays the golden eggs for the Beijing authoritarians whose corruption pales that of Thaksin.

Democracy in China with its newest regime of emperors who instead of robes wear business suits? Maybe in another 300 years, which would be about 250 years too late for the Chinese and the world.      

We need to be concerned about the aggressive economic policies of the PRC in Africa because we are in the present time, not in the colonial past, and above all because the PRC remains a fascist dictatorship that in Tienaman Square in 1989 consciously and clearly demonstrated to the restive among its population the cost of seeking freedom and democracy.

Yes, it is undeniable that if the People's Republic of China today adopted democracy it would disintegrate instantaneously. And whose fault would that be given the fact of the conquered people of Tibet, the oppressed and repressed Muslims of XinJiang province, those among the increasingly affluent East Coast population who yearn for freedom and democracy and for a market economy, who so profoundly want an end to the prohibition of "foreign" television (such as UBC), who desperately wish for the end of internet censorship such as Facebook and U-Tube.

Whose fault is it that China would self-destruct if democracy were implemented today, or even in ten years? Or 30 years? We know it's not the fault of the democracies of the world past or present.   

post deleted by poster.

More broadly, the majority of university students and young people I know the best state (eventually) that they hate the Communist Party of China, that they happily would separate their prospering province from the PRC to become both a democracy and economy in the nature of Taiwan, Singapore and, as a backup position, would settle for the freedom enjoyed by the Special Administrative Region of Hong Kong, with which Beijing tampers at its own risk of destroying the goose that lays the golden eggs for the Beijing authoritarians whose corruption pales that of Thaksin.

Democracy in China with its newest regime of emperors who instead of robes wear business suits? Maybe in another 300 years, which would be about 250 years too late for the Chinese and the world.      

Well, I believe you're somewhere in the South aren't you? If so, it's a well know fact that the Southerns and Eastern + Northern Chinese are not particularly fond of each other to put it mildly.

Personally I prefer the Easterners and Northern Chinese over the rude and impolite Guangdong Chinese; but to be fair, they are good business people. The problem for the Guangdong Chinese is that they could never have the job done without 2 important "coalitions", Beijing and rural poor workers.

It's nonsense however that a prosperous province (assuming you're in Guangdong) would be able to separate itself from Beijing and become a democracy within a short period like Taiwan or Singapore or settle for the HK style of democracy. No way; your students may dream on.

Of course students like to discuss these things, the same as the Texans would just LOVE to separate themselves from Washington, same-same as California or Cataluña and the Basque people from Madrid and the Scots and Welsh from London; shall I give you a dozen or more other examples?

It doesn't make sense to discuss this as it will not happen during our lifetimes and far beyond.

But -a certain form of- democracy will happen in the foreseeable future and I'm more confident that you, apparently.

I'm more optimistic than you are.

I came to China 30+ years ago for the first time and what I saw then and what I see now is oceans apart; back than I NEVER EVER saw a smiling face.... ..the people were grey, poorly dressed, few cars in the streets..I could go on for ages about the devastating situation the people and country was in, still.

Now I see so many happy people, smiling, laughing, well dressed, many cars, better housing, better bikes, better food, I could go on.

I once visited the room of a student in Xiamen University and that was not even so long ago, 1991 to be exact, and allow me to describe his "room":

a mat on the floor for sleeping; 1 naked light bulb on the ceiling; one pair of slippers, 2 underpants (one drying) 2 t-shirts (one drying); a piece of soap, a toothbrush, toothpaste....and that was it....apart from his polite and kind smile

and..his painting gear, painting the most unbelievable very large beautiful painting I had seen in a long time (on order by an agent).

I'm sure the guy is now famous and makes a lot of money.

I'm happy for him!

But, Publicus, it's so easy for "us" to comment on Beijing and China but nobody on this planet has ever been steering such a huge country before with their 1,3 BILLION people.

Criticizing is so easy; being and viewing positively is something else.

You should learn to become a bit more positive rather than to bash and blame Beijing and China; I seldom see you being a little bit positive.

Cheer up man, better for your own health too.

LaoPo

More broadly, the majority of university students and young people I know the best state (eventually) that they hate the Communist Party of China, that they happily would separate their prospering province from the PRC to become both a democracy and economy in the nature of Taiwan, Singapore and, as a backup position, would settle for the freedom enjoyed by the Special Administrative Region of Hong Kong, with which Beijing tampers at its own risk of destroying the goose that lays the golden eggs for the Beijing authoritarians whose corruption pales that of Thaksin.

Democracy in China with its newest regime of emperors who instead of robes wear business suits? Maybe in another 300 years, which would be about 250 years too late for the Chinese and the world.      

Well, I believe you're somewhere in the South aren't you? If so, it's a well know fact that the Southerns and Eastern + Northern Chinese are not particularly fond of each other to put it mildly.

Personally I prefer the Easterners and Northern Chinese over the rude and impolite Guangdong Chinese; but to be fair, they are good business people. The problem for the Guangdong Chinese is that they could never have the job done without 2 important "coalitions", Beijing and rural poor workers.

It's nonsense however that a prosperous province (assuming you're in Guangdong) would be able to separate itself from Beijing and become a democracy within a short period like Taiwan or Singapore or settle for the HK style of democracy. No way; your students may dream on.

Of course students like to discuss these things, the same as the Texans would just LOVE to separate themselves from Washington, same-same as California or Cataluña and the Basque people from Madrid and the Scots and Welsh from London; shall I give you a dozen or more other examples?

It doesn't make sense to discuss this as it will not happen during our lifetimes and far beyond.

But -a certain form of- democracy will happen in the foreseeable future and I'm more confident that you, apparently.

I'm more optimistic than you are.

I came to China 30+ years ago for the first time and what I saw then and what I see now is oceans apart; back than I NEVER EVER saw a smiling face.... ..the people were grey, poorly dressed, few cars in the streets..I could go on for ages about the devastating situation the people and country was in, still.

Now I see so many happy people, smiling, laughing, well dressed, many cars, better housing, better bikes, better food, I could go on.

I once visited the room of a student in Xiamen University and that was not even so long ago, 1991 to be exact, and allow me to describe his "room":

a mat on the floor for sleeping; 1 naked light bulb on the ceiling; one pair of slippers, 2 underpants (one drying) 2 t-shirts (one drying); a piece of soap, a toothbrush, toothpaste....and that was it....apart from his polite and kind smile

and..his painting gear, painting the most unbelievable very large beautiful painting I had seen in a long time (on order by an agent).

I'm sure the guy is now famous and makes a lot of money.

I'm happy for him!

But, Publicus, it's so easy for "us" to comment on Beijing and China but nobody on this planet has ever been steering such a huge country before with their 1,3 BILLION people.

Criticizing is so easy; being and viewing positively is something else.

You should learn to become a bit more positive rather than to bash and blame Beijing and China; I seldom see you being a little bit positive.

Cheer up man, better for your own health too.

LaoPo

First, you or I are not 'us', no more than authoritarian sympathicos or democrats are 'us'. Second, you say you believe I'm in Guangdong province, adjacent to Hong Kong and ShenZhen City, geographically the most prosperous province in the People's Republic of China, perhaps much in the way in the US the state of Alabama is the 49th most prosperous than the bottom of the heap state of Mississippi. In fact, you know from our previous exchanges about the Cantonese tongue I'm in Guangdong province (old Canton for the uninitiated). (I certifiably know you know that.)   

Where you find happy smiling people in the people's paradise of the PRC, and they blissfully exist, I find people who detest their government, and there are more than some. Those we share views with find one another, sooner or later. 

Among others, you and I recognize the differences between the Chinese north of the Yangtze River and the more modern south of it (using it as an arbitrary but helpful equivalent of the old Mason-Dixon line of the anti bellum US). You or I and others easily can note the differences on either side of the geographic and cultural divide. Indeed, the population north of the river is traditional, hidebound, armed with rules, rules and rules rooted in traditional, ancient and decrepit Chinese culture, while south of the natural divide, led by the old Canton (Guangdong province) are those Chinese, for better and for worse, who are and for the pst two centuries have been more exposed to the West and to the world in general, and for a longer period of time than the closed populations of the North, and who have caught on to the modern world while the North remains as frozen and frigid culturally and socioeconomically as their long and frightful winters.

And my god, you try to drag Texans into discussion of separation from the whole of a nation? You refer to a successor fellow Republican Party governor of the state of Geo W Bush, Rick Perry, who recently said that if Washington doesn't change its ways soon and quickly, Texas would be better off to cessede from from the Union of the States, an historically proven dismal idea that ended in disaster for both Texas and the Old Confederacy of which it was a part. Subsequent scientific public opinion research surveys in the state consistently suggested Gov Perry's idea was rejected by more than 7 of every 10 citizens of the Lone Star state - hardly a basis of the 'splittism' that half a world away obsesses the PRC leadership and Communist Party elites concerning Guangdong, Tibet, XinJiang province, Shanghai.

Your heart wrenching tales of your visits to the People's Republic of China of 30 years ago, of people struggling each and every day to keep their heads above the ancient Chinese metaphor of the eternal sea, are the tales of the madman Mao's PRC, when millions starved to death, as presently in N Korea on a proportionate scale. Yes the fascist capitalist Deng Xiao Peng altered that course, but towards what? Greater democracy and freedom in his response to order the massacre and slaughter of those unarmed students and significant segments of the population of Beijing in Tienamen Square in 1989?

The divide in and over the PRC is between those ruling elites who would seek to deliver the goods to the population to avoid the collapse of the Soviet model, and those who would pursue the development of democracy and prosperity. The former would repress and slaughter, the latter would let a thousand flowers bloom. However, guns vs flowers hasn't ever been much of a competitive matchup.            

^^^^

When it comes to China, YOUR glass is always half empty.

Mine still half full.

That's the difference between you and me.

Your views are negative, mine are positive.

Q: If you have so many negative thoughts and views about China why the heck live there ? Surely, on your age you should be enjoying life, no ?

I try to

LaoPo

Q: If you have so many negative thoughts and views about China why the heck live there ?

Now where have I heard that before?

^^^^

When it comes to China, YOUR glass is always half empty.

Mine still half full.

That's the difference between you and me.

Your views are negative, mine are positive.

Q: If you have so many negative thoughts and views about China why the heck live there ? Surely, on your age you should be enjoying life, no ?

I try to

LaoPo

I've posted positive statements about the PRC...I guess too often my positive statement is your very sensitive hair trigger negative.

You mind if I critique a bit, thank you.....oh, that's right, you do mind - absolutely.

Perhaps you ought to try a bit more balance in your undying sympathies towards anything Chinese past or present.

And while you're at it, stop trying to question my life's choices and decisions. Who do you think you are, or should presume to be? Some communist bureaucrat in Beijing (up in the North of the PRChina) ?

^^^^

When it comes to China, YOUR glass is always half empty.

Mine still half full.

That's the difference between you and me.

Your views are negative, mine are positive.

Q: If you have so many negative thoughts and views about China why the heck live there ? Surely, on your age you should be enjoying life, no ?

I try to

LaoPo

I've posted positive statements about the PRC...I guess too often my positive statement is your very sensitive hair trigger negative.

You mind if I critique a bit, thank you.....oh, that's right, you do mind - absolutely.

Perhaps you ought to try a bit more balance in your undying sympathies towards anything Chinese past or present.

And while you're at it, stop trying to question my life's choices and decisions. Who do you think you are, or should presume to be? Some communist bureaucrat in Beijing (up in the North of the PRChina) ?

You know why it's sensitive Publicus?

Because I find it disgusting that people constantly bash upon a population who are trying to make a better living and work so unbelievably hard; people who still live in many cases under miserable conditions and have to walk upstairs for 9 or 10 floors in the bloody heat because those buildings, a mere 30 years old, have no elevators; people who have yet no access to a car and you, amongst others, should know so better than anyone else.

Yes, I have a lot of sympathy and empathy towards the Chinese unlike many others who are fed with news about China from mainly western sources and never have been there, sitting in their comfortable chairs behind the newest computers and later step in their air conditioned cars.

I have no problems if you bash upon the Beijing government since there is still so much to improve....very much so, but the constant bashing upon the whole country and Chinese themselves is annoying, more so because the same bashing is immediately attacked by the Americans here if it concerns their own country because Oh my Gosh is THAT sensitive...or not, if someone steps on the tail of America?

I have yet to see any other national from any other country, whether France, UK, Holland, Australia, Germany etc. etc. who acts so itchy and sensitive when it comes to their country when people bash upon the same, like the Americans.

I wonder why.

But, you know what? I know for a fact that most Chinese are extremely proud of their own country and laugh about the complaints from outside.

They, for the first time in their lives, realize that they are an important engine in the world and proud of what they have achieved in less than 30 years.

Bashing upon "Beijing" is fine by me but praising what such a huge country has achieved in such a short time is rare to be seen here. There's no other country in the world, not now nor in the past, who did what they accomplished in such a short time, including the US and Europe.

And, if you feel itchy because I asked you question it says more about you rather than me but to answer YOUR question: No, I'm not "Some communist bureaucrat in Beijing (up in the North of the PRChina) ?"

But, I thought you knew that, didn't you?

LaoPo

^^^^

When it comes to China, YOUR glass is always half empty.

Mine still half full.

That's the difference between you and me.

Your views are negative, mine are positive.

Q: If you have so many negative thoughts and views about China why the heck live there ? Surely, on your age you should be enjoying life, no ?

I try to

LaoPo

I've posted positive statements about the PRC...I guess too often my positive statement is your very sensitive hair trigger negative.

You mind if I critique a bit, thank you.....oh, that's right, you do mind - absolutely.

Perhaps you ought to try a bit more balance in your undying sympathies towards anything Chinese past or present.

And while you're at it, stop trying to question my life's choices and decisions. Who do you think you are, or should presume to be? Some communist bureaucrat in Beijing (up in the North of the PRChina) ?

<<snip>>

But, you know what? I know for a fact that most Chinese are extremely proud of their own country and laugh about the complaints from outside.

They, for the first time in their lives, realize that they are an important engine in the world and proud of what they have achieved in less than 30 years.

Bashing upon "Beijing" is fine by me but praising what such a huge country has achieved in such a short time is rare to be seen here. There's no other country in the world, not now nor in the past, who did what they accomplished in such a short time, including the US and Europe.

And, if you feel itchy because I asked you question it says more about you rather than me but to answer YOUR question: No, I'm not "Some communist bureaucrat in Beijing (up in the North of the PRChina) ?"

But, I thought you knew that, didn't you?

LaoPo

Your question to me is a repeated personal one about life choices and personal, individual decisions that have a significant professional dimension. I'd accept and respond to the question if asked by certain people, but you are not one of them. Your repeated asking of the question is unwelcome, presumptious and rude.

Yes the PRChinese have accomplished a great deal in a very short 30 years. And you should know that in China R&D means receive and duplicate.

While the PRChinese have accomplished much in a short time, the "four uns" of PRChina do apply, and they are serious and profound "uns".

You none the less can accept my word that I do respect your bond with the Chinese people. I like a lot of them - I mean personally I like a lot of Chinese people and I like them a lot. I like some Chinese very much, others even more. So many have been so welcoming of me, so friendly and helpful, so generous and simply fun and loveable people to know and with whom to share everyday life. I hadn't imagined a Chinese person could be charming and, while there aren't many, there are a delightful few.

In a sense, however, China itself is a paradox and more....the place has too many people to be managable or democratic. The present system represses the individual in every respect, yet freedom would produce chaos and self destruction. What is the happy medium? The Golden Mean? Where and how can the needed medium be attained? This is the core stuff of Greek tragedy.

".....The present system represses the individual in every respect, yet freedom would produce chaos and self destruction. What is the happy medium? The Golden Mean? Where and how can the needed medium be attained? This is the core stuff of Greek tragedy. ....."

So true for any democracy.....but I imagine that the greater the population, the greater the impediment to true democracy....as inferred above.

Democracy is not the be all and end all of successful society.

I have yet to see any other national from any other country, whether France, UK, Holland, Australia, Germany etc. etc. who acts so itchy and sensitive when it comes to their country when people bash upon the same, like the Americans.

Are you back to this nonsense once again? As one Australian poster said, most posters do not know or care that much what is happening in all these other countries unless they live there. America, on the other hand, is the only superpower in the world, is on the International news all day, every day, and what happens in Washington DC affects every other country. Therefore America gets talked about more than other countries and it also gets bashed more. Many Americans get tired of hearing it and get "sensitive' about it. It is not that hard to figure out.

OK, they've come a long way in 30 years. The west has had a huge appetite for buying sh&t in the last 30 years. I used to do it myself. Comfort shopping , buy anything as long as its cheap. I've just picked up a spanner to do a little Job and it snapped with very little applied pressure. You guessed it made in China. I maybe a bit behind the Curve on these things but come on they still make stuff we don't really need. What I do need is a 'Snap-On' spanner to get the Job Done. Snap-on - US I think or something decent made in Germany or dare I say it the UK.

Its a pretty Bleak outlook , a world dominated by China. I think China has more than its share of problems and is just as likely to implode as become the 'New' version of the New World Order.

Your question to me is a repeated personal one about life choices and personal, individual decisions that have a significant professional dimension. I'd accept and respond to the question if asked by certain people, but you are not one of them. Your repeated asking of the question is unwelcome, presumptious and rude.

Yes the PRChinese have accomplished a great deal in a very short 30 years. And you should know that in China R&D means receive and duplicate.

While the PRChinese have accomplished much in a short time, the "four uns" of PRChina do apply, and they are serious and profound "uns".

You none the less can accept my word that I do respect your bond with the Chinese people. I like a lot of them - I mean personally I like a lot of Chinese people and I like them a lot. I like some Chinese very much, others even more. So many have been so welcoming of me, so friendly and helpful, so generous and simply fun and loveable people to know and with whom to share everyday life. I hadn't imagined a Chinese person could be charming and, while there aren't many, there are a delightful few.

In a sense, however, China itself is a paradox and more....the place has too many people to be managable or democratic. The present system represses the individual in every respect, yet freedom would produce chaos and self destruction. What is the happy medium? The Golden Mean? Where and how can the needed medium be attained? This is the core stuff of Greek tragedy.

Interesting post; and about your so called "personal" question: consider it to be a rethorical question. Problem solved. It's up to you where you want to live. Don't make such a fuzz about it.

China R&D receive and duplicate ? No doubt a lot of it but not all. It's like 50 years ago when the Japanese started producing (read: copying) products, originally made in the west; and where are they now ?

They took over gigantic markets of products made in the west before: cars, electronics, audio, pc's you name it; they outsmarted the west on many fronts, simply because their western competitors were sleeping and arrogant.

Your "uns" (Hu Jintao's) are agreed upon and need a lot of time and I assume you know that since nobody (from the west) can change it other than trying to with dialogue.

If course China is a paradox but which country is not? Is India (which will overtake China in population in 10-20 years) not a paradox?....is Thailand not a fine example of a paradox country ?

When is a country manageable and democratic Publicus?

Is that America with it's 4 million people in 1790...........75 million people back in 1900 or with 250 million in 1990* or now with some 305 million people...

* a growth of more than 333 % in 100 years?

Or is it still manageable in 2043 when it foresees:

USA: 2043 - 400,527,776 (the year of 400 million) ?**

I don't know but maybe you know.

BUT: when you wrote: "The present system represses the individual in every respect, yet freedom would produce chaos and self destruction." I agree with you, although the word "repress in every respect" is not felt by many, as they told me themselves; the ones I met and know that is, and not 1,3 Billion...

China is a complicated country and we can't deny that it has huge problems but some (not you P.) forget that the entire EU Union with 500 million people PLUS the USA with 305 million people are still short of some 500+ million people to arrive at the number China has....and India has almost with 1,150M .

"We" in the west better cooperate with Asia where more than 60% of the world's population lives.

Consensus together with dialogue are the words to try and come to an agreement with Asia and it's different cultures and view upon live in general;

acting like a preacher who says "you should do it the way we do it in the west" is not the right approach, the same as the west wouldn't take such comments/lessons from the Chinese, or Indians, or Thai

** http://geography.about.com/od/obtainpopula...spopulation.htm

LaoPo