Lobby Group Foreigners In Thailand

[taxexile]

mouse

sell the idea that Thailand has to gain rather than loose anything

taxexile

but what exactly DOES thailand have to gain from this ?

nobody has managed come up with one thing that thailand will gain from changing the rules.

at the moment land sales to farangs are either through their wives , in which case the land is not really sold to a foriegner.

or its through a company , the legality of which is debateable , but thailand still has ultimate control over the land and can collect taxes yearly on that land. these taxes may rise in the future.

thailand is laughing , falangs are still "buying" land , why should thailand give up a winning hand.

what benefits does this focus / pressure group have to offer thailand.

and how many falangs actually buy land here , its not exactly hundreds of thousands. its only a few hundred.

i dont think this idea will ever get out of first gear i'm afraid.

[samran]

What planet are you living on? Locals are finding difficulties in Samui and Phuket because of the activities of Sino-Thai corporate muscle, not foreign capital.The average Thai "ther" possibly can't compete with his business minded compatriots but Farangs are not an issue.This whole thread is a comical example of resident farang foreigners' tendency to take themselves and their "problems" too seriously in the Thai context.We simply don't matter very much.Having said that my view is that all restrictions on foreign ownership should be removed -not just property and land but shares as well.There needs to be some care taken of vulnerable local interests but a level playing field would actually be in the interest of most Thais.But it will probably never happen because local vested interests control the political process.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Gotta say that Boris is spot on here. Thoroughly agree with him too.

Just food for thought though, seems you are able to get yourselves up and running with a web site…..good work. Won’t do much for you I am afraid.

I’d like to offer some suggestions of what you need to think about.

Professional lobbies aren’t exactly thick on the ground in Thailand, who are you going to hire to do your work? Who amongst you can work with civil servants, are able to speak civil service Thai and are able to shmooze civil service egos?

Once you have sorted that, what government department are you going to target? Who is responsible for the land ownership laws? Who in that department are able to help you and are amenable to your arguments? How are you going to build up a relationship with that person?

Once you have found that person, how are they going be able to help you to lobby the relevant minister? Are they high enough in the civil service? Are they a favourite of the minister, and more importantly the Prime Minister? Once that relevant minister is potentially drafted (assuming this becomes a big enough issue), how do you get a draft recommendation forwarded to the Permanent Secretary and then how will you get the Perm Sec of that Ministry (who usually have their own agenda) to forward that draft recommendation to cabinet?

One it gets to the cabinet level, inevitably a steering committee will need to be formed to consider or ‘study’ the proposals.

First though, a selection committee will need to be formed to select the steering committee. How are you going to lobby the government to get pro-foreign ownership people onto the selection committee, so that they can select sufficiently pro-foreign ownership members on to the steering committee which will actually do a ‘study’ into the feasibility of the idea of foreign land ownership. Presumably there are doing to be bucket loads of anti-foreign land ownership people trying to get onto that selection committee themselves.

Once the study is up and running, have you worked out how you will be able to feed in recommendations to them? Do you realise that committees like these are lucky to meet once, maybe twice per year (which can be more often that the selection committee who chose them in the first place)?

Once the study is finalised, what if the government doesn’t like the result. It can be held at committee level for a long time, or the results are never released. Even if the government doesn’t mind the result, realise they are not bound to accept the output of the study. What if they recommend a second study. A new selection committee will have to be formed…………

Anyway, I’d offer my services to help you with all this, but I doubt you could afford me. Additionally, as one who has worked for the Thai civil service, there is a vice in the back shed, which I’d rather crush my nuts with than do this job….

Good luck.

[LaoPo]

but what exactly DOES thailand have to gain from this ?

nobody has managed come up with one thing that thailand will gain from changing the rules.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Taxexile, this is not entirely correct. Please read my post #102 in this topic, where, amongst others, I wrote:

They (buyers/builders of houses/land) spend enormous amounts of money, create (directly and indirectly) 100's of thousands of new jobs and the money is pumped around in the local economy.*

Prices are rising so the Taxman of the country benefits also enormously.

*I just read an article that the tourist-economy in the Phuket area (before the Tsunami) is a mere Bht 70 Billion/year alone. How much would it be for the total country?

Of course Thailand is gaining a lot, changing the laws.

That at least is my view.

And, lucky we are, fortunately this is still a democratic forum, right ?

LaoPo

Edited May 17, 2005 by LaoPo

[Pink Mist]

Samran as usual you are spot on, I reckon this thread is really going no-where, but wont close it yet another Mod may though.

[taxexile]

lao po

Please read my post #102 in this topic, where, amongst others, I wrote:

i stand corrected.

[samran]

Samran as usual you are spot on, I reckon this thread is really going no-where, but wont close it yet another Mod may though.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

don't close it. Let it die a natural death once people realise what it is actually involved apart from a $50 donation to a stranger on the web.....

[Pink Mist]

no I said I wouldnt and I wont unless it gets feral

[khunlungphudhu]

don't close it. Let it die a natural death once people realise what it is actually involved apart from a $50 donation to a stranger on the web.....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Knowing Thai politics, as we all do, reckon it will take more than $50 donations from every every TV member!!!!

[samran]

Knowing Thai politics, as we all do, reckon it will take more than $50 donations from every every TV member!!!!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

see thats the problem, I don't think many people here know what Thai politics is, and most probably never will, myself included.

[gburns57au]

don't close it. Let it die a natural death once people realise what it is actually involved apart from a $50 donation to a stranger on the web.....

Knowing Thai politics, as we all do, reckon it will take more than $50 donations from every every TV member!!!!

I would close it.....Once farangs start getting involved in Thai politics only bad can come from it...

every TV member except one....I certainly wouldnt donate to this.....

[~G~]

It will take more than 4M baht lobby group to create such a change in Thai law.

No convincing arguments as to how it will contribute to Thailand.

Too strong resistence to this kind of issues in the Thai public.

Thai politicians will use their patriotic objection to this issue as a tool to increase their popularity. Why will any politician support it is beyond my understanding.

I can't think of any major sector in the Thai public who is likely to support.

And you expect 4M a year will do it? Or even 40M?

Did you consider the possible negative consequences?

Take example from the Chinese-Thais - they are virtually controlling Thailand's economy without any lobby group or any legistlation change. It did take them a few generations, I must admit.

[LaoPo]

Take example from the Chinese-Thais - they are virtually controlling Thailand's economy without any lobby group or any legistlation change. It did take them a few generations, I must admit. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Correct, but take into consideration that the Chinese-Thai are:

Very clever, very intelligent and very hard working and have a very close and strong family- and community-life where they support each other, no matter what.

I wonder if that can be said about the Farangs, posting here?

LaoPo

Edited May 17, 2005 by LaoPo

[~G~]

Take example from the Chinese-Thais - they are virtually controlling Thailand's economy without any lobby group or any legistlation change. It did take them a few generations, I must admit. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Correct, but take into consideration that the Chinese-Thai are:

Very clever, very intelligent and very hard working and have a very close and strong family- and community-life where they support each other, no matter what.

I wonder if that can be said about the Farangs, posting here?

LaoPo

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You didn't mention, realistic and patient. I will be more inclined to support a lobby for eaisier, quicker permanent residency and citizenship, thereby become intergarted in Thailand's society, enjoying all the benefits and duties that come with it, rather than demanding rights for "foreigners" as an alien group.

Edited May 17, 2005 by ~G~

[LaoPo]

Take example from the Chinese-Thais - they are virtually controlling Thailand's economy without any lobby group or any legistlation change. It did take them a few generations, I must admit. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Correct, but take into consideration that the Chinese-Thai are:

Very clever, very intelligent and very hard working and have a very close and strong family- and community-life where they support each other, no matter what.

I wonder if that can be said about the Farangs, posting here?

LaoPo

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You didn't mention, realistic and patient. I will be more inclined to support a lobby for eaisier, quicker permanent residency and citizenship, thereby become intergarted in Thailand's society rather than demanding rights for "foreigners" as an alien group.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

'Realistic' and 'patient' do not really cope with 'quicker', does it?.

I thought the lobby was an idea to 'ease' the rules for foreigners from in- and outside Thailand to own/buy land and house. Not so 'just' an alien group inside Thailand already.

Also, I never saw a comment from anyone as of yet about my question what you all think about the rights for Thai people to buy and own land/house in countries* outside Thailand (unless I missed a comment).

*also in 'our' countries!

LaoPo

Edited May 17, 2005 by LaoPo

[samran]

I thought the lobby was an idea to 'ease' the rules for foreigners from in- and outside Thailand to own/buy land and house. Not so 'just' an alien group inside Thailand already.

Also, I never saw a comment from anyone as of yet about my question what you all think about the rights for Thai people to buy and own land/house in countries* outside Thailand (unless I missed a comment).

*also in 'our' countries!

You sound like you are wanting to be chief lobbiest? Are you putting your hand up to Volunteer LaoPo????

[~G~]

LaoPo,

Evidently, I do not posses the chinese patience However, my point is that:

- Foreigners who become Thai citizens, naturally enjoy all the respective rights (and obligations).

- There is already a procedure for a foreigner to become a Thai citizen, as hard and exhausting as it may be.

- IMHO (and I might be mistaken) it is more likely that the timelines will be shortened, and the requirements will be eased, for permanent residency and citizenship, then granting more ownership rights to foreign citizens.

Why? I think it will be accepted better in the public that foriengers who stayed here for a while, and maybe married Thais, can be considered as Thai citizens. "Granting rights for foreigners" sounds more like a threat.

Again, just MHO.

What do I think about thais owning land in my country? No objection, really, if they live there on a regular basis and make it their home.

[bannork]

Take example from the Chinese-Thais - they are virtually controlling Thailand's economy without any lobby group or any legistlation change. It did take them a few generations, I must admit. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Correct, but take into consideration that the Chinese-Thai are:

Very clever, very intelligent and very hard working and have a very close and strong family- and community-life where they support each other, no matter what.

I wonder if that can be said about the Farangs, posting here?

LaoPo

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So true, the Chinese are from extended families like Thais, where family commitments are paramount, obligations to society take second place. Farangs are nice dudes but rights in Thailand?!!!!!perhaps they mean rites.

[chownah]

If you guys should ever actually get a website and donate money etc. do you think that some Thai MP might accuse you of starting a political party? And do you know if it is illegal for foreigners to start political parties? And if it IS illegal do you know what the punishment is for this offence?

Do you need work permits to do the work to organize. If some MP or civil servant should indicate that you need work permits for this type of work do you think it is likely that you could win in court? What punishment could you receive for doing this type of work without a work permit?

I think organizing this is really really sticking your neck out...as in easily chopped off!!!

Edited May 17, 2005 by chownah

[LaoPo]

You sound like you are wanting to be chief lobbiest? Are you putting your hand up to Volunteer LaoPo???? 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Chief lobbyist... are you kidding me?

Volunteer? what do you advise me?

It was, indeed, a very interesting topic with a lot of responses.

But, to be realistic I'd say:

Let's live and enjoy ourselves with the current situation, but ALSO let's stop complaining about this country, their laws, the people, crazy situations and a lot more of these items.

After all, Thailand isn't THAT BAD, is it?

or...would anyone of you prefer Indonesia, Myanmar, Cambodja, Laos, Vietnam, Philippines???

Would be interesting to learn (since I don't know) if the situation to own a house+land in 1 of these countries is safer and better protected that Thailand.

It would be funny to see the faces of the government-officials in TH when 10's of thousands of 'Farangs' (living in TH) would leave in hundreds of planes and move their #sses to another country in the area. Wonder what the Papers will write... ..what TS will think...what the vendors will think...what the BG's will think...what the shops will think... or

Anyone?

LaoPo

[The_Other_Mac]

Y'know... as one of the early voices saying "aye", I'm going right off the whole lobby idea. The tone of its supporters so far has been, well, demanding. Many people are saying it's politically impossible, I wasn't aware that there was such a strong feeling from the general public on the issue.

And also someone used a sentence earlier which gave me the shivers:

"There's no way that some football hooligan from Newcastle is just going to be allowed to turn up and buy his plot without having contributed anything to the country beforehand."

That made me stop and think. That made me think, I'd prefer that neither of us had the right. I know that if I really want that bit of land in the future, I have a couple of friends I can trust; and the football hooligan from Newcastle can be ripped off by some Shylock or BG and sent home.

And then a smart guy says...

- There is already a procedure for a foreigner to become a Thai citizen, as hard and exhausting as it may be.

- IMHO (and I might be mistaken) it is more likely that the timelines will be shortened, and the requirements will be eased, for permanent residency and citizenship, then granting more ownership rights to foreign citizens.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes.... yes, that would do it actually. In fact the rules for PR strike me as fair. I don't know what the situation is for relatively normal people getting citizenship, I've sort of suspected that you're eligible when you're told you're eligible.

I suggest a change in direction is in order...

[dr_Pat_Pong]

don't close it. Let it die a natural death once people realise what it is actually involved apart from a $50 donation to a stranger on the web.....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Knowing Thai politics, as we all do, reckon it will take more than $50 donations from every every TV member!!!!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

and most TV members are smarter than that Dr T must be shaking in his boots as well

[mouse]

After reading these posts over and over it seems that one thing is certain, no one has any faith in any single group being able to change the system from here. Let us look atthis another way.

Then what about going to your home country creating a lobby and then approaching the problem from there?. I suspect that immediately 100,000 Thais, the suspected number of Thai owning property abroad, could feel threatened and may even become supporters of the farang owning a small plot in Thailand, out of fear of loosing what they have in Europe, or North America or other nation. Now such a situation would certainly get attention.

After all it is a well known fact that a lot of wealth is being hidden in other nations by the rich and influential of Thailand. In some cases the reverse is true of the farang living in Thailand.

I nominate LaoPo as Chief Strategist and Chief of Policy Developement. He is the man!

[taxexile]

Then what about going to your home country creating a lobby and then approaching the problem from there?. I suspect that immediately 100,000 Thais, the suspected number of Thai owning property abroad, could feel threatened and may even become supporters of the farang owning a small plot in Thailand, out of fear of loosing what they have in Europe, or North America or other nation. Now such a situation would certainly get attention.

your absurd reasoning IS just an attempt at humour ? ....... isnt it ?

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Probably not Tax

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Hey Tax ... what's your suggested prognosis for this activity ?

[maerim]

How about Liverpool Football Club?

Hah, and if you don't do what we want you get the fans as well!

[taxexile]

Hey Tax ... what's your suggested prognosis for this activity ?

let them eat cake ! western thinking in an eastern culture !

it'll all end in tears. but not mine.

[LaoPo]

After reading these posts over and over it seems that one thing is certain, no one has any faith in any single group being able to change the system from here.  Let us look atthis another way.

Then what about going to your home country creating a lobby and then approaching the problem from there?.  I suspect that immediately 100,000 Thais, the suspected number of Thai owning property abroad, could feel threatened and may even become supporters of the farang owning a small plot in Thailand, out of fear of loosing what they have in Europe, or North America or other nation.  Now such a situation would certainly get attention.

After all it is a well known fact that a lot of wealth is being hidden in other nations by the rich and influential of Thailand.  In some cases the reverse is true of the farang living in Thailand.

I nominate LaoPo as Chief Strategist and Chief of Policy Developement.  He is the man!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

your last sentence is too much honour , and I am not a strategist but just trying to make some sense in the difference between the 'rights', a foreigner has in Thailand, and a Thai has abroad, owning/buying/building a place.

But, to be serious, I agree, and it's a bit strange that everyone here is talking about the laws for foreigners in Thailand regarding owning/buying/building a nice place for themselves and (almost) NOT A SINGLE WORD ABOUT THE (RICH) THAI, owning houses and land abroad....strange!

I fully understand that there is still more wide-spread wealth in the "Western' countries than there is in 'Eastern' countries but we all know that the number of wealthy people in the Far East is increasing dramatically and even in such numbers that it is almost unthinkable for us, 'poor' Westerners.

'We' will soon be 'overtaken' with such a speed by the Easterners that we will not even have the time to yawn or gasp. They will be there in no-time! China alone has more than 250.000 (yes!) US$ Millionaires and let me tell you that these guys are desperate to 'look around', travel and spend their money...hmmm maybe even look at the BG's, right?

Do you really think Mr. TS gives a s#it about western Farangs...do you? I don't think so, and yes, I understand that my saying is contrary to what we, initially, wanted to do: set up a Lobby, and that's what I stood for.

But, after reading all your comments, some of you opened my eyes and made me realize that a Lobby will not work. Not at this stage, maybe later, but I already even doubt that.

But, Mr. TS is an extremely clever man and he will not and cannot withhold the drive and determination of the Easterners (read: wealthy Chinese from HK, Singapore, Taiwan AND the mainland!!!) who are willing to buy, invest and build their own villas in Thailand.

And, if he does not, they will simply invest somewhere else (Malaysia for instance, since they have palmtrees also... ). The Chinese are very, very pragmatic people and Mr. TS knows that of course, and again, he is clever enough to realize that HE wants their money and will, therefore, change the laws for foreigners (including for 'us') in the nearby future, absolutely no doubt about that!

The only thing 'we' can do is just try to be a little clever also, and anticipate to the boom which is coming from.....the East, NOT the West!

If you don't realize or don't want to accept that, well, there is still a lot of space elsewhere to have a nice life

Sorry for the long story.

LaoPo

[lampard10]

NOT A SINGLE WORD ABOUT THE (RICH) [/b]THAI, owning houses and land abroad....strange!

LaoPo[/color]

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I thought I summed that up with the three words ' Liverpool Football Club' OK he didn't buy it, but he was under the immpression that he was certainly entitled to buy it. That's why I mentioned the Goose/Gander syndrome. In fact Thailands esteemed Prime Minister and anti-farang campaigner not only wanted to buy property in the UK, he wanted a slice of our sporting history.

Edited May 18, 2005 by lampard10

[mbkudu]

I couldn't agree with this more (LaoPo's post). Asia and especially China is growing faster than people realise. The west on the other hand is disintegrating rapidly. I haven't put all my eggs in one basket, but most of them are already there. Everything swings in cycles, but I think this is the age for Asia.

Edited May 18, 2005 by mbkudu