It will end up in a war.

that goes without saying. for sure the headhunters from Papua New Guinea will invade the Christmas Islands and force the islanders to abandon the EUR and adopt shrinkheads as currency.

Economic warfare maybe. Trade war probably.

Well I do agree the end of Euro would be best for the strong in Euroland.

no it wouldn't Flying. although a cash net payer into Brussel's "let's waste the dough bin" the strong benefit immensely because nearly 60% of their exports are shipped into €UR-areas. this enables the producers to do a longterm cost planning without taking exchange rate fluctuations and hedging into consideration. the € is only in a mess because every cheating Bill, Buck, Hank and Joe was admitted into the monetary union.

That's part of the story, the rest of the story is that finacial institutions and "accredited investors" from "founding" member states lent money to these poor cousins and rather than bear the risk inherent in such an investment are now being back stopped to the detriment of more cautious investors. It reeks of moral hazard and I think we're getting a little to far down that slippery slope to find something strong to grab on to.

Still while they deal with G I think they may be surprised by the depth of P, I & S before it is all over. Then again with their new mega bailout maybe they will pretend it does not exist?

Flying,

right now there is no mega bail-out and there might not be one if the €U political àsses are firm, act and don't talk to much sh*t. what they are doing now is filling up the war chest to scare the speculators.

Portugal's medium term maturities yield 3.84%, Spain's yields are 3.24% and Italy has to pay 3.60% for a 5-y maturity. all sustainable. so i ask where's the bail-out beef? only in the brains of blogspotters, zerohedgers and the usual doom&gloom suspects!

even the bail-out of Greece might not have been necessary without the shorting of greek debt via credit default swaps. the ironic thing is that even greek banks participated in the shorting. only 6 months ago Greece was able to refinance at 5% (5-y maturities) and a year ago at 4% which was sustainable. CDS speculators have catapulted these rates into unsustainable heights. the bad news is that the Greek won't be willing to bear the brunt their government promises.

Yes I should have said proposed mega bailout....

But even at the number they are throwing around to scare as you say...I just dont see it being anywhere near enough. When considering just what Italy owes France. Someone is going to take a haircut.

Like Lannarebirth said it is getting hard to find something solid to grab

What you say about the shorting is interesting though. Makes you wonder about the short sightedness ( no pun intended) of the Greek banks...Just greed? Crazy Times

an interesting development of "porcine" yields based on the rumour that the ECB bought "PIIG Bonds" in the secondary market:

What you say about the shorting is interesting though. Makes you wonder about the short sightedness ( no pun intended) of the Greek banks...Just greed? Crazy Times

no shortsightedness, just greed. one has to differentiate between €U-banks speculating against €UR and €U-banks speculating against €U-debt. one can be suicidal, the other can be very profitable. that the latter was not profitable for shorters who jumped on the train too late is a different story. they are licking now their wounds.

Financialism is an economic system where the primary activity consists of creating and manipulating financial instruments. Financial instruments – loans, mortgages, stocks, bonds, etc. - are in their original form firmly linked to economic reality: the mortgage finances home ownership; the stock certificate represents ownership of a company that owns physical assets, the bond secures debt incurred to build a factory.

However, when financialism sets in, financial instruments become progressively further removed from their role in supporting commerce in the real world and develop a life of their own, a weird shadow dimension, a hall of mirrors, a distorted alternate reality that intersects and reacts with the real economy in unpredictable and destructive ways. George Soros described this phenomenon as “reflexivity.&rd... Derivatives have a lot to do with it. Leverage and the abuse of easy credit are contributing causes. The shadow banking system is a symptom.

http://seekingalpha.com/instablog/162115-t...rket-capitalism

All it takes is a little divine intervention...

"The U.S. President has also been credited with helping to save the Euro, after giving advice to European leaders on how to handle the debt crisis."

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1277707/Obama-helped-save-Euro-calling-Nicolas-Sarkozy-Angela-Merkel-advice.html#ixzz0nkAX5qHz

"The U.S. President has also been credited with helping to save the Euro, after giving advice to European leaders on how to handle the debt crisis."

That guy should try cleaning his own house before telling others how dirty theirs is or how to clean theirs.....

"The U.S. President has also been credited with helping to save the Euro, after giving advice to European leaders on how to handle the debt crisis."

That guy should try cleaning his own house before telling others how dirty theirs is or how to clean theirs.....

Agreed!

All it takes is a little divine intervention...

"The U.S. President has also been credited with helping to save the Euro, after giving advice to European leaders on how to handle the debt crisis."

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1277707/Obama-helped-save-Euro-calling-Nicolas-Sarkozy-Angela-Merkel-advice.html#ixzz0nkAX5qHz

Progressive american president screws Europe again. Progressive Woodrow Wilson in 1919 and now the Obomer does it. German newspaper Bild headlines that we've been made a smuck again. Now he sets his sight on Spain

"The U.S. President has also been credited with helping to save the Euro, after giving advice to European leaders on how to handle the debt crisis."

That guy should try cleaning his own house before telling others how dirty theirs is or how to clean theirs.....

Agreed!

WHY would any country nowadays look to America for ideas how to handle a debt crisis when we are buried ourselves? It's not as if Obama's hands are clean with all the debt he's been piling on lately.

"The U.S. President has also been credited with helping to save the Euro, after giving advice to European leaders on how to handle the debt crisis."

That guy should try cleaning his own house before telling others how dirty theirs is or how to clean theirs.....

Agreed!

WHY would any country nowadays look to America for ideas how to handle a debt crisis when we are buried ourselves? It's not as if Obama's hands are clean with all the debt he's been piling on lately.

A trillion here, a trillion there. Before long you're talking real money.

What one long standing financial institution on the brink of extinction has to say about another:

http://finance.yahoo.com/tech-ticker/volck...tbt,dia,spy,xlf

The Euro was doomed from the start.

I always held the premise that one day a Southern European plumber would be watching a German TV show and suddenly coming to the realisation about how much more his Northern pal was getting in the same currency, more than he was for the same job. A lot different and easier to take when two different currencies are at hand, the average guy simply can't be bothered to do the maths, but throw the same denominational notes in his face and only one outcome...Social unrest.

Never mind the debt.

All it takes is a little divine intervention...

"The U.S. President has also been credited with helping to save the Euro, after giving advice to European leaders on how to handle the debt crisis."

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1277707/Obama-helped-save-Euro-calling-Nicolas-Sarkozy-Angela-Merkel-advice.html#ixzz0nkAX5qHz

..reacting a little late but I didn't see this post any earlier.

I like Obama a lot and I didn't read the article so far but my first reaction was...HOW can the American President tell the EU how to handle the debt crisis ?...knowing that some 40+ states in his own US are de facto bankrupt and just survive because the $ printing machines are running hot and run 24/7 ?

And, adding, to the ones who want 2 kinds of currencies in Europe: that would be something if Obama would drop California and a few more states also out of the US$ zone because they're bankrupt and didn't comply with what Daddy in Washington said they should do (with their bookkeeping)

Not many states would survive if Washington would throw them out ; I wonder what currency they would replace the Greenback with...............Pesos maybe?

Amazing

LaoPo

And, adding, to the ones who want 2 kinds of currencies in Europe: that would be something if Obama would drop California and a few more states also out of the US$ zone because they're bankrupt and didn't comply with what Daddy in Washington said they should do (with their bookkeeping)

Not many states would survive if Washington would throw them out ; I wonder what currency they would replace the Greenback with...............Pesos maybe?

Actually I think a few states would do quite well or better if not saddled with the cost of a bloated Federal govt.

Free from federal taxation? Free to charge a toll for any that wanted to pass through that state?

Free to produce goods without having every nickel clipped for wars they do not need nor support? Oh the list is too long.............

If things continue it may be Washington that gets thrown out not the other way round. Kicked out of the republic for not upholding the Constitution.

As for pesos I think not...Probably the money that is the oldest in the world...Silver & Gold. A money that cannot be produced by slight of printing press but...actually has to be born by labor.

And, adding, to the ones who want 2 kinds of currencies in Europe: that would be something if Obama would drop California and a few more states also out of the US$ zone because they're bankrupt and didn't comply with what Daddy in Washington said they should do (with their bookkeeping)

Not many states would survive if Washington would throw them out ; I wonder what currency they would replace the Greenback with...............Pesos maybe?

Actually I think a few states would do quite well or better if not saddled with the cost of a bloated Federal govt.

Free from federal taxation? Free to charge a toll for any that wanted to pass through that state?

Free to produce goods without having every nickel clipped for wars they do not need nor support? Oh the list is too long.............

If things continue it may be Washington that gets thrown out not the other way round. Kicked out of the republic for not upholding the Constitution.

As for pesos I think not...Probably the money that is the oldest in the world...Silver & Gold. A money that cannot be produced by slight of printing press but...actually has to be born by labor.

That's the point Flying.

A lot of States, the same as countries in the EU, think they could do better without Mom & Dad.....until they end up in problems.

The problem is that no country on earth can survive anymore without the others and the same counts for the States/Countries.

The moment you would put a gate with a lock around that State, or country, you will see what happens, within a few months.... probably weeks.

Can any State/Country manage with their own electricity, oil, IT, enough cattle, enough food, water, taxes, income, salaries, prisons, guards, crime, welfare, immigrants, airports, factories...I could go on, endlessly.

One way or another you will see that there is a missing link, an essential one, that will brake the chain and people will be stuck...and the State/Country will be on it's knees, not able to manage anymore.

LaoPo

Can any State/Country manage with their own electricity, oil, IT, enough cattle, enough food, water, taxes, income, salaries, prisons, guards, crime, welfare, immigrants, airports, factories...I could go on, endlessly.

One way or another you will see that there is a missing link, an essential one, that will brake the chain and people will be stuck...and the State/Country will be on it's knees, not able to manage anymore.

I actually believe quite a few could survive not only well but better than they do now.

But all of this is moot because the military industrial complex would never allow it.

Can any State/Country manage with their own electricity, oil, IT, enough cattle, enough food, water, taxes, income, salaries, prisons, guards, crime, welfare, immigrants, airports, factories...I could go on, endlessly.

One way or another you will see that there is a missing link, an essential one, that will brake the chain and people will be stuck...and the State/Country will be on it's knees, not able to manage anymore.

I actually believe quite a few could survive not only well but better than they do now.

But all of this is moot because the military industrial complex would never allow it.

It sounds like you are saying that the United States of America are being held together by the military and various military-dependent industries?

Can any State/Country manage with their own electricity, oil, IT, enough cattle, enough food, water, taxes, income, salaries, prisons, guards, crime, welfare, immigrants, airports, factories...I could go on, endlessly.

One way or another you will see that there is a missing link, an essential one, that will brake the chain and people will be stuck...and the State/Country will be on it's knees, not able to manage anymore.

I actually believe quite a few could survive not only well but better than they do now.

But all of this is moot because the military industrial complex would never allow it.

It sounds like you are saying that the United States of America are being held together by the military and various military-dependent industries?

Not Yet.............

But you may want to study as to why some States are calling for Jeffersonian principles to limit Federal Govt intervention in their states. Some who were the original 13 colonies.

Or why some are also calling the use of their National Guard as unlawful.

It is not as you would like to imply or direct the conversation....quite the opposite.

It is these states that want to uphold the constitution as written.

Same as the many attorney generals lining up to file suit against the health care bill.

They all seek the same............America