Touché

double post

Mel Gibsons first screen kiss was with a man.

Mel Gibson's father was a a quiz champion on Australian TV, and was hated by the Jewish community for his anti-semantic views. Long before his sons well publicised rant to the cops.

I like most of his films and don't give a stuff about his, or any other actors, personal lives.

Why don't you point out some of these things so that we can judge for ourselves? Insinuating that Fox only hired her to not appear racist, makes me suspicious of your conclusions. I think that they hired because she is articulate and attractive and shares their point of view - the same reasons that they would hire a white person to be a commentator on TV.

Suspicious? What could I be hiding UG? Look I watched one piece she did, I'll see if I can locate some video of it, in which she was accusing waiters in Chinatowns across America I believe of some pretty crazy stuff. Having worked as waiter and knowing many Chinese in the restaurant business, I thought what she was saying was just plain stupid, uniformed and not something she researched but something was was handed to read on TV. Considering the snide remarks many of their commentators have made over the years I don't feel that minorities are looked at in a positive light at Newscorp. My personal opinion and one I have come to after watching years of Fox news.

Now, I know you well enough to know that you will nail me to wood and haul me into the afternoon sun as a dirty lib, when I say that I can't trust Fox news any more than I could trust my congressman. I am not a huge fan of American media overall, too focused on ratings and not enough news. However, Fox has been caught time and time again in twisting things, even more so than the other stations. There are now people you make it the goals to showcase these fails, like Liberalviewer on YouTube, as well as many other sites.

Now I am sure we will just have to disagree on this and move on. I know full well that those devoted to Fox news do not like to consider critizism against the news channel, and I really don't want to go over this ground again. My Grandfather thinks the sun raises and set in Glenn Becks as.s and continues to convince me of the same, so this topic is a little weary for me.

Whatever happened to free speech ? Mel can say whatever he likes. If something he says offends someone then that's between him and the person or group he offended and nobody else's business. Better someone who's not scared to say they think rather than someone who holds it in because they are scared of being seen as not PC.

Of course, he has every right to say these horrible things, except threaten rape, that is a threat and against our laws here. Also, he can't hit people that is also against our laws. He can call people names and wish nasty terrible things upon them without going to jail, yes. Freedom of speech. Also, the rest of us can condemn him as bigot and generally nasty human being, that is also freedom of speech. So, I am not sure what you are complaining about, everyone here is exercising freedom of speech.

As far as it being between him and who he offended, would you say this same thing if one of the posters here was black, Mexican, or Jewish and therefore included in his rants? According to you than that person would have every right to speak out against him. What is the difference between that individual, included in Gibson's rants, and someone who isn't exercising their freedom of speech to condemn Gibson's behavior? Sounds to me like your wasting your own time arguing with yourself.

My point is that what people say never really amounts to much unless it's followed up by actions or incites others to action. In any case instances which violate the law can be dealt with accordingly.

If Mel doesn't like Jews he has the liberty to say so, either privately or publicly. Jews have the right to label Mel an anti-semite. No need for public debate or apologies.

Reminds me of something I learned in kindergarten: "Sticks and stones may break my bones but names will never hurt me." Seems like some adults really need to grow up.

I think you are overacting, maybe, because what you have just said is what we are all doing. So, I don't see the problem, sorry.

I believed that the Conservatives/Republicans were often racists when I was young and I still think that I was right, but the whole country has changed since then, and , in general, I think that is no longer true.

I think it depends on what state they come from. The conservatives in the Southwest are pretty open about their dislike of Mexicans. Republicans from other districts, maybe not so much.

Democrats are the most racist of the bunch, they just hide it better behind a facade of "caring". Republicans/Conservative think minorities should work hard and go to school if they want to be successful - just like anyone else. Democrats/Liberal don't think these minorities are intelligent enough to succeed without a helping hand from the government even in this day and age. In addition, Dem policies keep minorities from succeeding (teaching Eubonics or Spanish to children instead of English for one), keeping them an "oppressed" group that they can milk for votes each election.

Wow, really. My father's side of the family are Tea Party/Republican/Christians and to the them Obama is a 'no account n!&r' their words not mine. They always seem to refer to non-whites with a derogatory term, like when they refer to Asians who are all ch inks, except for the Japanese who are Japs, of course they can't tell the difference anyway. However, they always smile and my Thai wife and say it's nice to see her. Is that what you meant by not racist?

I watched the Daily Show they other day, they a white lady, Republican by the way, in California who was try to stop the teaching of the Chinese language schools because it would spread Communism. I would call this bigoted, not sure about you.

Now, I am not going to even suggest that non-whites can't be racist, I have already posted here that such racism goes unchecked in America. I find this just as despicable. However, I think it's silly to start arguing what racism is worst. Bigotry is bigotry and despicable regardless of where it comes from.

I do take issue with you attacking my knowledge. In what way have I shown a lack of understanding? I have spoken on how I feel about what Mr. Gibson has done, no one else, and I have stated that these actions are morally unacceptable.

No, you painted all of America with the broad brush of racism and intolerance. In doing so, you have shown a huge lack of understanding.

I stand by what I said. There is a lot of intolerance here in America and it's in every group that resides in America. I have know blacks that think whites are evil devils, just look at Tupac and his racist rants. I have already pointed out the injustice of rewarding the racist Lauryn Hill. I have also discussed the racism I experienced at the hands of an ex's parents, who I will state again were Chinese. My daughter has already been teased in School by little blond girls for being Chinese, complete with pulling the sides of their eyes back.

I will say this as clear as I can......bigotry is a constant human problem, anyone can give into it, and everyone needs to work against it. America, being the 'city on the hill' with all these wonderful values of equality, regardless of how much progress has been made, it just not living up to it's ideal. That is why I paint it with a broad brush. I don't care to compare it to other nations for the goal is not to be as good as any other nation but to be as good as our ideals.

Whatever happened to free speech ? Mel can say whatever he likes. If something he says offends someone then that's between him and the person or group he offended and nobody else's business. Better someone who's not scared to say they think rather than someone who holds it in because they are scared of being seen as not PC.

Of course, he has every right to say these horrible things, except threaten rape, that is a threat and against our laws here. Also, he can't hit people that is also against our laws. He can call people names and wish nasty terrible things upon them without going to jail, yes. Freedom of speech. Also, the rest of us can condemn him as bigot and generally nasty human being, that is also freedom of speech. So, I am not sure what you are complaining about, everyone here is exercising freedom of speech.

As far as it being between him and who he offended, would you say this same thing if one of the posters here was black, Mexican, or Jewish and therefore included in his rants? According to you than that person would have every right to speak out against him. What is the difference between that individual, included in Gibson's rants, and someone who isn't exercising their freedom of speech to condemn Gibson's behavior? Sounds to me like your wasting your own time arguing with yourself.

My point is that what people say never really amounts to much unless it's followed up by actions or incites others to action. In any case instances which violate the law can be dealt with accordingly.

If Mel doesn't like Jews he has the liberty to say so, either privately or publicly. Jews have the right to label Mel an anti-semite. No need for public debate or apologies.

Reminds me of something I learned in kindergarten: "Sticks and stones may break my bones but names will never hurt me." Seems like some adults really need to grow up.

Sticks and stones may break my bones but a punch in the face will hurt. In your defense of Mel's right to free speech you fail to address the fact that he does not have the right to threaten or hit another human being.

This is the true problem out of this whole ugly situation. I may not like what he says, but physical violence is a line never to be crossed and never to be forgotten.

Whatever happened to free speech ? Mel can say whatever he likes. If something he says offends someone then that's between him and the person or group he offended and nobody else's business. Better someone who's not scared to say they think rather than someone who holds it in because they are scared of being seen as not PC.

Of course, he has every right to say these horrible things, except threaten rape, that is a threat and against our laws here. Also, he can't hit people that is also against our laws. He can call people names and wish nasty terrible things upon them without going to jail, yes. Freedom of speech. Also, the rest of us can condemn him as bigot and generally nasty human being, that is also freedom of speech. So, I am not sure what you are complaining about, everyone here is exercising freedom of speech.

As far as it being between him and who he offended, would you say this same thing if one of the posters here was black, Mexican, or Jewish and therefore included in his rants? According to you than that person would have every right to speak out against him. What is the difference between that individual, included in Gibson's rants, and someone who isn't exercising their freedom of speech to condemn Gibson's behavior? Sounds to me like your wasting your own time arguing with yourself.

... He is under the impression that being a man of such advanced years automatically makes him more knowledgable than anyone younger than him (ie, everyone).

No, not just anyone, but you two for certain.

Oh jeez Chuck! Little insults like that just show that you feel you lost the argument and are bitter. I even said you were a good guy, are you reading my posts. Why be nasty, it's unbecoming?

Touché

Touche? He is just being petty, what is there to Touche about? I thought we were having a discussion here and where not trying to insult. I hope I am not wrong in thinking this.

Wow, really. My father's side of the family are Tea Party/Republican/Christians and to the them Obama is a 'no account n!&r' their words not mine.

Sounds like your family is as f**ed up as Mel's.

I watched the Daily Show they other day, they a white lady, Republican by the way, in California who was try to stop the teaching of the Chinese language schools because it would spread Communism. I would call this bigoted, not sure about you.

No, that's not bigotry. That's just stupidity.

I know full well that those devoted to Fox news do not like to consider critizism against the news channel, and I really don't want to go over this ground again. My Grandfather thinks the sun raises and set in Glenn Becks as.s and continues to convince me of the same, so this topic is a little weary for me.

I am not devoted to Fox News - but I'm glad it exists - and I think that Glenn Beck is a rather boring nutcase, however, you accused Malkin of saying "some stupid things", but you have not produced them. INHO you have some sensible positions and some that are not, so I can not just accept this with out seeing what she said that was so "stupid".

Like Bill O'Reilly, some times I do not agree with her, but I have never thought of her as "stupid".

Touché

Touche? He is just being petty, what is there to Touche about? I thought we were having a discussion here and where not trying to insult. I hope I am not wrong in thinking this.

IMHO it was a deserved retort and sabeymai's defense of Mel Gibson well merited it while Harcourt was just included on general grounds for most of his other posts.

As far as I can see, your post was not included when he referred to "both of you".

Whatever happened to free speech ? Mel can say whatever he likes. If something he says offends someone then that's between him and the person or group he offended and nobody else's business. Better someone who's not scared to say they think rather than someone who holds it in because they are scared of being seen as not PC.

Of course, he has every right to say these horrible things, except threaten rape, that is a threat and against our laws here. Also, he can't hit people that is also against our laws. He can call people names and wish nasty terrible things upon them without going to jail, yes. Freedom of speech. Also, the rest of us can condemn him as bigot and generally nasty human being, that is also freedom of speech. So, I am not sure what you are complaining about, everyone here is exercising freedom of speech.

As far as it being between him and who he offended, would you say this same thing if one of the posters here was black, Mexican, or Jewish and therefore included in his rants? According to you than that person would have every right to speak out against him. What is the difference between that individual, included in Gibson's rants, and someone who isn't exercising their freedom of speech to condemn Gibson's behavior? Sounds to me like your wasting your own time arguing with yourself.

My point is that what people say never really amounts to much unless it's followed up by actions or incites others to action. In any case instances which violate the law can be dealt with accordingly.

If Mel doesn't like Jews he has the liberty to say so, either privately or publicly. Jews have the right to label Mel an anti-semite. No need for public debate or apologies.

Reminds me of something I learned in kindergarten: "Sticks and stones may break my bones but names will never hurt me." Seems like some adults really need to grow up.

Sticks and stones may break my bones but a punch in the face will hurt. In your defense of Mel's right to free speech you fail to address the fact that he does not have the right to threaten or hit another human being.

sbk, I believe the statement "instances which violate the law can be dealt with accordingly" adequately expresses my view of any illegal acts, whether threatened or carried out. The act of expressing an opinion, regardless of how abhorrent one may find it, is, as far as I know, not illegal in the US yet.

This is the true problem out of this whole ugly situation. I may not like what he says, but physical violence is a line never to be crossed and never to be forgotten.

Agreed, but has Mel ever been found guilty of assault ? AFAIK not yet. The current investigation into alleged spousal abuse may alter my opinion of Mel as a person depending on the outcome but I'm with OC in that I've always enjoyed his movies and will continue to do so regardless.

Me, I've never verbally or physicaly abused any of the women in my life. But I'd love to hear the audio of what some of you have said when you got in a fight with the lady in your life. I'm sure it wasn't all cup cakes and candy canes. Again, not defending abuse, just saying that some of Mel's critics are hypo-critics.

Me, I've never verbally or physicaly abused any of the women in my life. But I'd love to hear the audio of what some of you have said when you got in a fight with the lady in your life. I'm sure it wasn't all cup cakes and candy canes. Again, not defending abuse, just saying that some of Mel's critics are hypo-critics.

I know what you're saying and agree that many things are said in the heat of the moment....but I think you might mean "hyper" (-critics), being the opposite of "hypo"

Me, I've never verbally or physicaly abused any of the women in my life. But I'd love to hear the audio of what some of you have said when you got in a fight with the lady in your life. I'm sure it wasn't all cup cakes and candy canes. Again, not defending abuse, just saying that some of Mel's critics are hypo-critics.

Put down the cleaver honey. Your sister is family after all. You always want me to do whatever your family wants.

Me, kill a dog? Heck no. I thought it was a large hairless mouse. That’s true, I never heard a mouse bark before.

You don’t need a rooster. The chickens will still lay eggs without one. A rooster is not a pet. Cause I don’t like roosters. Trust me he felt no pain.

No, I didn’t check under the hood for cats before I started the truck. Why would I?

If I knew ten black guys I would but the only black guy I know is Sam and he is in his eighties. I doubt if Sam could rape you even if he wanted too.

Perhaps that quart of tequila has affected your judgment a bit.

I have never hit a woman but if you throw one more quart of the best beer man has ever tasted, at me, tonight is going to be a first.

And you ripped all my custom made suites in half because why?

I just bought my favorite pair of boots from a guy leaving your garage sale for $20.00. Why are you selling all my clothes on the front lawn.

Me, I've never verbally or physicaly abused any of the women in my life. But I'd love to hear the audio of what some of you have said when you got in a fight with the lady in your life. I'm sure it wasn't all cup cakes and candy canes. Again, not defending abuse, just saying that some of Mel's critics are hypo-critics.

Put down the cleaver honey. Your sister is family after all. You always want me to do whatever your family wants.

Me, kill a dog? Heck no. I thought it was a large hairless mouse. That's true, I never heard a mouse bark before.

You don't need a rooster. The chickens will still lay eggs without one. A rooster is not a pet. Cause I don't like roosters. Trust me he felt no pain.

No, I didn't check under the hood for cats before I started the truck. Why would I?

If I knew ten black guys I would but the only black guy I know is Sam and he is in his eighties. I doubt if Sam could rape you even if he wanted too.

Perhaps that quart of tequila has affected your judgment a bit.

I have never hit a woman but if you throw one more quart of the best beer man has ever tasted, at me, tonight is going to be a first.

And you ripped all my custom made suites in half because why?

I just bought my favorite pair of boots from a guy leaving your garage sale for $20.00. Why are you selling all my clothes on the front lawn.

The PG version I take it?

Wow, really. My father's side of the family are Tea Party/Republican/Christians and to the them Obama is a 'no account n!&r' their words not mine.

Sounds like your family is as f**ed up as Mel's.

I watched the Daily Show they other day, they a white lady, Republican by the way, in California who was try to stop the teaching of the Chinese language schools because it would spread Communism. I would call this bigoted, not sure about you.

No, that's not bigotry. That's just stupidity.

Since when is bigotry intelligent?

I know full well that those devoted to Fox news do not like to consider critizism against the news channel, and I really don't want to go over this ground again. My Grandfather thinks the sun raises and set in Glenn Becks as.s and continues to convince me of the same, so this topic is a little weary for me.

I am not devoted to Fox News - but I'm glad it exists - and I think that Glenn Beck is a rather boring nutcase, however, you accused Malkin of saying "some stupid things", but you have not produced them. INHO you have some sensible positions and some that are not, so I can not just accept this with out seeing what she said that was so "stupid".

Like Bill O'Reilly, some times I do not agree with her, but I have never thought of her as "stupid".

I mentioned the piece she did on the waiters, unfortunately I watched that on TV and not an internet source, so I am having trouble finding the piece. Give me some time I might produce it, however, having watched it myself, that is my opinion on her performance. Whether you believe my opinion right or wrong is kind of irrelevant. What we are now discussing is our opinion of her, which I doubt will change much if either of us produce videos.

Touché

Touche? He is just being petty, what is there to Touche about? I thought we were having a discussion here and where not trying to insult. I hope I am not wrong in thinking this.

IMHO it was a deserved retort and sabeymai's defense of Mel Gibson well merited it while Harcourt was just included on general grounds for most of his other posts.

As far as I can see, your post was not included when he referred to "both of you".

Fire enough, I understand getting caught in the crossfire so to speak.

This is the true problem out of this whole ugly situation. I may not like what he says, but physical violence is a line never to be crossed and never to be forgotten.

Agreed, but has Mel ever been found guilty of assault ? AFAIK not yet. The current investigation into alleged spousal abuse may alter my opinion of Mel as a person depending on the outcome but I'm with OC in that I've always enjoyed his movies and will continue to do so regardless.

As I said before I prefer to separate the art form the artist. I have several of his movies, and while I am upset at his actions I am not throwing them way. In these movies he wasn't Mel Gibson, I have no cause to hate fictional characters.

Me, I've never verbally or physicaly abused any of the women in my life. But I'd love to hear the audio of what some of you have said when you got in a fight with the lady in your life. I'm sure it wasn't all cup cakes and candy canes. Again, not defending abuse, just saying that some of Mel's critics are hypo-critics.

Words said in the heat of an argument may be forgiven, but never forgotten. Doesn't matter what the offended party says. Anger is also a poor excuse for any action. People have tried to use to justify murder, passion killings for one. Also, words and fists are two different levels of assault. In any case neither is excusable.

Now, your post, while you mean well, smacks of hypocrisy and is very offensive. You, yourself, have never 'verbally or physically abused' a woman in your life, yet you assume the other posters here have? I am reading this right? How bad to you assume arguments with our wives get? Because you seem to be suggesting that when we argue with our wives it comes close to what Gibson has said and done. This suggestion is couched comfortably in your use of the word hypocrite. That is a very insulting suggestion and if this is what you meant I would question your civility in general, however, I am going to assume this is not what you meant and ask that you clarify., or perhaps better, retract that statement.

I personally have never come close to saying any of the vile things Mr. Gibson has said to my wife, nor would I ever. I have a respectful and happy marriage. I would consul anyone in a marriage were words and deeds of Mr. Gibson's nature are common place as you seem to suggest, to seek marriage advice or divorce. If you can not speak in a civil manner, even when angry, to your own wife I can only assume anger management might be in order.

Wow, really. My father's side of the family are Tea Party/Republican/Christians and to the them Obama is a 'no account n!&r' their words not mine.

Sounds like your family is as f**ed up as Mel's.

I watched the Daily Show they other day, they a white lady, Republican by the way, in California who was try to stop the teaching of the Chinese language schools because it would spread Communism. I would call this bigoted, not sure about you.

No, that's not bigotry. That's just stupidity.

Since when is bigotry intelligent?

Unfortunately, bigotry has nothing to do with intelligence or the lack there of. There are plenty of geniuses out there who are bigots in one way or another. Just as there are many very tolerant, loving people who are complete morons.

Since when is bigotry intelligent?

Unfortunately, bigotry has nothing to do with intelligence or the lack there of. There are plenty of geniuses out there who are bigots in one way or another. Just as there are many very tolerant, loving people who are complete morons.

You are quite right. I shouldn't have used the word intelligent. What I do mean is uneducated. Yes, a person can be intelligent and that can have vast amount of knowledge, yet for a person to give in to bigotry means that they are uneducated in understanding how powerful emotional thinking is, which is why we should keep to reason at all times. They are also lacking knowledge about the person/people they are discriminating against, believing instead what is convenient to support their hate.

Now, your post, while you mean well, smacks of hypocrisy and is very offensive. You, yourself, have never 'verbally or physically abused' a woman in your life, yet you assume the other posters here have? I am reading this right? How bad to you assume arguments with our wives get?

"The lady doth protest too much, methinks."

Well, you have no problem assuming Americans are racists, etc like you suggested in your earlier post. But to answer your question - YES. I AM saying that you or someone else here has gotten into a heated argument with the better half and said some things that you wouldn't want to have on tape floating around the Internet or broadcast on the news for all the world to hear. Not everyone here for sure, but 100% that someone here has. Is it equal to what Gibson said? I don't know, I never claimed it was.

Now, your post, while you mean well, smacks of hypocrisy and is very offensive. You, yourself, have never 'verbally or physically abused' a woman in your life, yet you assume the other posters here have? I am reading this right? How bad to you assume arguments with our wives get?

"The lady doth protest too much, methinks."

Well, you have no problem assuming Americans are racists, etc like you suggested in your earlier post. But to answer your question - YES. I AM saying that you or someone else here has gotten into a heated argument with the better half and said some things that you wouldn't want to have on tape floating around the Internet or broadcast on the news for all the world to hear. Not everyone here for sure, but 100% that someone here has. Is it equal to what Gibson said? I don't know, I never claimed it was.

Methinks you are just going for a cheap shot cause it's easier. I also think you are back peddling without conceding the point for this post is worded more reasonably then the first. "Not everyone here for sure," and "Is it equal to what Gibson said? ...I never claimed it was." Claimed no, implied, yes. Considering he is the topic of this thread and you are, at least in a half hearted fashion, defending him, yes it is indeed implied.

I have stated many times already that I believe America has race problems yes. I don't see what you have to gain by agreeing with me. I certainly don't think every last America is racist, I am American and lack this trait myself, however, there are strong elements on both sides of America's political spectrum that do possess this trait. Have you not already suggested that leftist in America are racist yourself?

Also, since the issue of physically attacking a woman, as it is one of the behaviors of Mr.Gibson, is apart of this discussion you also implied that one or many of us here beat our wives. "Again, not defending abuse, just saying that some of Mel's critics are hypo-critics." These are your words. A hypocrite is someone you criticizes someone else for something that they also do. Therefore you have implied that people here have beaten their wives. Perhaps that was not your intention, again for the sake of face and civility I will offer you a way out.

However, your poorly worded post certainly suggests that was your intention, which leads me to think maybe it was your way to throw out an insult without resorting to name calling.

The post I am now responding is a lot more incriminating. This post, through sarcasm, suggests out right that I beat my wife and am publicly protesting spousal abuse to cover myself. That is what this line from Hamlet was used for in the play. Therefore, we have an individual who is defending a wife beater, racist and bigot, by suggestion that I am a wife beater, racist, and bigot. My, aren't you a clever one. If all you can add to this discussion is to accuse people disagreeing with you of the same crimes of the man you defend, I can safely say you have lost the moral high ground and have nothing more to add. Please, stop insulting for insults sake.

Me, I've never verbally or physicaly abused any of the women in my life. But I'd love to hear the audio of what some of you have said when you got in a fight with the lady in your life. I'm sure it wasn't all cup cakes and candy canes. Again, not defending abuse, just saying that some of Mel's critics are hypo-critics.

Words said in the heat of an argument may be forgiven, but never forgotten. Doesn't matter what the offended party says. Anger is also a poor excuse for any action. People have tried to use to justify murder, passion killings for one. Also, words and fists are two different levels of assault. In any case neither is excusable.

Now, your post, while you mean well, smacks of hypocrisy and is very offensive. You, yourself, have never 'verbally or physically abused' a woman in your life, yet you assume the other posters here have? I am reading this right? How bad to you assume arguments with our wives get? Because you seem to be suggesting that when we argue with our wives it comes close to what Gibson has said and done. This suggestion is couched comfortably in your use of the word hypocrite. That is a very insulting suggestion and if this is what you meant I would question your civility in general, however, I am going to assume this is not what you meant and ask that you clarify., or perhaps better, retract that statement.

I personally have never come close to saying any of the vile things Mr. Gibson has said to my wife, nor would I ever. I have a respectful and happy marriage. I would consul anyone in a marriage were words and deeds of Mr. Gibson's nature are common place as you seem to suggest, to seek marriage advice or divorce. If you can not speak in a civil manner, even when angry, to your own wife I can only assume anger management might be in order.

with the divorce rate being what it is, i think any betting man would agree that during a break up ala MG and his gf that heated words are exchanged add child custody to the mix and the flames will really fly, this has no bearing on what a man in a happy marriege would say to his wife in a simple spat imo two very different fileds of play.