"Raid" On Wildlife Sanctuary Had "Revenge" Motive?

[cowslip]

Here is the story of the raid on WFFT.

http://ireport.cnn.com/docs/DOC-749251

[cowslip]

It’s easy to be corrupt in Thailand – in fact it’s practically the norm in daily life….so almost everyone is either touched by corruption or involved to some degree. The result is that many of those involved - government officials etc. etc. – get into it so easily that certainly don’t have to be contenders for the title of “criminal mastermind”.

Many of those involved in these shady activities got into with so little personal risk as all their colleagues are also involved, that they don’t even consider themselves to be criminals. They perceive it as the norm ……. In fact they probably genuinely believe that they are upstanding pillars of the community and their easy-got wealth is their just reward.

It is therefore hardly surprising that when someone threatens to expose their nefarious activities, maybe even bringing to an end the flow of extra cash, that they become very aggrieved. However, their response is concomitant with their lack of intelligence and criminal abilities and pretty unsubtle. Unsubtle to the point of seeming to be an admission of their own guilt.

Such is the action against the WFFT whose founder Edwin Wiek is a constant thorn in the aide of abusers of wildlife and has recently exposed criminal activities involving the trafficking of elephants. This is not the first time e has clashed with authorities, who are clearly embarrassed by his exposés.

It seems about time that the Thai authorities dragged themselves into the 21^st century and lived up to the wildlife treaties and conventions to which they are signatories.

[Pseudolus]

Shocking but at the same time not surprising.

[GuestHouse]

I wonder can we expect the National Park's officials to take similar action against the Tiger Zoo Temple?

[rockderk]

Video of the raid would be helpful especially to get the heavyweight media orgs on it. Everything is else is just words and the Dept of national parks can shrug it off.

[cowslip]

Video of the raid would be helpful especially to get the heavyweight media orgs on it. Everything is else is just words and the Dept of national parks can shrug it off.

Aren't CNN "heavy" enough for you?

THere is no doubt about the raid the reasons are pretty obvious I would have thought - I can't see what point you are trying to make really......... why you would trust video any more than words - surely you are not that naive?

It is a shame that raids are not usually announced to the media before they occur as it detracts from the element of surprise.

However I believe if you google their web site, you'll find a video.

Edited February 16, 2012 by cowslip

[DP25]

Video of the raid would be helpful especially to get the heavyweight media orgs on it. Everything is else is just words and the Dept of national parks can shrug it off.

Aren't CNN "heavy" enough for you?

It is CNN iReport, not CNN. Look at the top, 'not vetted by CNN'. IReport is user submitted stories that anyone can upload. They are not edited, screened, or endorsed by CNN

[monkeysu]

http://www.wfft.org/video/

here is the video page - this is seriously disturbing!

[monkeysu]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dg8YGVabFeE&feature=youtu.be

In this video a macaque nearly drowns!

[cowslip]

of course as this is the Thai authorities we know that these animals - some injured - will be taken to a much better place and treated so well.........not

[wolf5370]

Don't know what's with some of you people. She is screaming and swearing because for 3 days these areswipes have been coming in and poking and netting animals that were rescue victims (and hence lived brutal lives already) and then she sees one idiot knock a monkey of its high perch into a water bucket where it seems unconscious and would obviously drown - its called fear and panic. If I saw some guy doing that to my cat, swearing and screaming would be the least he received from me. Completely understandable.

[robblok]

Don't know what's with some of you people. She is screaming and swearing because for 3 days these areswipes have been coming in and poking and netting animals that were rescue victims (and hence lived brutal lives already) and then she sees one idiot knock a monkey of its high perch into a water bucket where it seems unconscious and would obviously drown - its called fear and panic. If I saw some guy doing that to my cat, swearing and screaming would be the least he received from me. Completely understandable.

Yes its understandable.. but how does it help the situation ? The guy is already trying to help the monkey. What do you expect him to do open the door while the monkey drowns ?

[wolf5370]

Don't know what's with some of you people. She is screaming and swearing because for 3 days these areswipes have been coming in and poking and netting animals that were rescue victims (and hence lived brutal lives already) and then she sees one idiot knock a monkey of its high perch into a water bucket where it seems unconscious and would obviously drown - its called fear and panic. If I saw some guy doing that to my cat, swearing and screaming would be the least he received from me. Completely understandable.

Yes its understandable.. but how does it help the situation ? The guy is already trying to help the monkey. What do you expect him to do open the door while the monkey drowns ?

No I expect them to use the correct method of catching the creatiure in the first place - usually by ushering them into a cage using food and freindly faces not trying to use a butterfly net against a vertical wall. If they were going to seize them, why didn't they order the keepers to capture and hand them over?

[robblok]

Don't know what's with some of you people. She is screaming and swearing because for 3 days these areswipes have been coming in and poking and netting animals that were rescue victims (and hence lived brutal lives already) and then she sees one idiot knock a monkey of its high perch into a water bucket where it seems unconscious and would obviously drown - its called fear and panic. If I saw some guy doing that to my cat, swearing and screaming would be the least he received from me. Completely understandable.

Yes its understandable.. but how does it help the situation ? The guy is already trying to help the monkey. What do you expect him to do open the door while the monkey drowns ?

No I expect them to use the correct method of catching the creatiure in the first place - usually by ushering them into a cage using food and freindly faces not trying to use a butterfly net against a vertical wall. If they were going to seize them, why didn't they order the keepers to capture and hand them over?

And you think the keepers would do that ? I think it would be the best solution indeed. But i doubt the keepers would help.

[metisdead]

A post has been removed as now the topic has moved toward lobbying members to sign a petition. I understand the sentiments behind this case, lets drop the lobbying.

29) Not to lobby members.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?app=forums&module=extras&section=boardrules

[wolf5370]

Don't know what's with some of you people. She is screaming and swearing because for 3 days these areswipes have been coming in and poking and netting animals that were rescue victims (and hence lived brutal lives already) and then she sees one idiot knock a monkey of its high perch into a water bucket where it seems unconscious and would obviously drown - its called fear and panic. If I saw some guy doing that to my cat, swearing and screaming would be the least he received from me. Completely understandable.

Yes its understandable.. but how does it help the situation ? The guy is already trying to help the monkey. What do you expect him to do open the door while the monkey drowns ?

No I expect them to use the correct method of catching the creatiure in the first place - usually by ushering them into a cage using food and freindly faces not trying to use a butterfly net against a vertical wall. If they were going to seize them, why didn't they order the keepers to capture and hand them over?

And you think the keepers would do that ? I think it would be the best solution indeed. But i doubt the keepers would help.

Possibly, possibly not. Of course there are ways to help ensure they do. You get out the rifles and say, "Crate 'em or I'll tranq 'em", but I doubt there was even the thought of getting cooperation (however enforced) - just the usual thing here, Boss says do, golems do - no thought process inbetween.

[473geo]

Why are they taking the animals? Is it because the animals are now seen to be recovered and they should be back in the wild, and not in enclosures?

[DP25]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dg8YGVabFeE&feature=youtu.be

In this video a macaque nearly drowns!

The people in these videos are hysterical. And the monkey doesn't almost drown, it was in the water for like 10 seconds. Same with the video claiming the worker was kicking an unconscious monkey, he just barely touched it with his foot. Makes it hard to take them seriously.

Looking at the website, they are charging a lot of money to volunteer in this place. 5000 baht for a 1 day group tour (1-6 people), or 300 Euros for one week volunteering at the center.

[monkeysu]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dg8YGVabFeE&feature=youtu.be

In this video a macaque nearly drowns!

The people in these videos are hysterical. And the monkey doesn't almost drown, it was in the water for like 10 seconds. Same with the video claiming the worker was kicking an unconscious monkey, he just barely touched it with his foot. Makes it hard to take them seriously.

Looking at the website, they are charging a lot of money to volunteer in this place. 5000 baht for a 1 day group tour (1-6 people), or 300 Euros for one week volunteering at the center.

http://www.wfft.org/video/

if you actually watch these videos you will see that Edwin offered to move the animals himself if needed. This is a great organisation and if you think it is not go up there and see what they do. Yes they charge, how do you think any one guy can feed over 500 amimals? help is needed not the usual argumentative crap we get on here, either ignore or do something please!

[monkeysu]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dg8YGVabFeE&feature=youtu.be

In this video a macaque nearly drowns!

The people in these videos are hysterical. And the monkey doesn't almost drown, it was in the water for like 10 seconds. Same with the video claiming the worker was kicking an unconscious monkey, he just barely touched it with his foot. Makes it hard to take them seriously.

Looking at the website, they are charging a lot of money to volunteer in this place. 5000 baht for a 1 day group tour (1-6 people), or 300 Euros for one week volunteering at the center.

Why should any monkey be taken out of a safe environment? no monkey that has been rescued should be put thorough this. where do you think they are taking them? do you care? the guy that barely touched that monkey? that monkey was unconcious <deleted> is that oK?

[monkeysu]

BTW I spent 12 years taking care of monkeys here in Thailand and know what it takes to get them to trust you. I admire Edwin and the fact these anmials did not attack the men taking them is only more proof that they have learnt to trust the very humans that now abuse them.

[cdnvic]

Removed a post that was very derogatory to women, and a bunch that unnecessarily quoted it.

[metisdead]

Removed a post containing a link to Bangkok Post and a reply to that post.

31) Bangkok Post do not allow quotes from their news articles or other material to appear on Thaivisa.com. Neither do they allow links to their publications. Posts from members containing quotes from or links to Bangkok Post publications will be deleted from the forum. Please note that this is a decision by the Bangkok Post, not by Thaivisa.com and any complaints or other issues concerning this rule should be directed to them. Quotes from and links to Phuketwan are also not allowed and will also be removed. In special cases forum Administrators or the news team may use these sources.

[canopy]

It appears this ngo was operating illegally and the forestry department acted within their rights and responsibilities. Was it just that the paper work was not in order as we are led to believe or do allegations that triggered the raid go deeper than this? It would be nice to hear the other side of the story from an unbiased source.

[robblok]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dg8YGVabFeE&feature=youtu.be

In this video a macaque nearly drowns!

The people in these videos are hysterical. And the monkey doesn't almost drown, it was in the water for like 10 seconds. Same with the video claiming the worker was kicking an unconscious monkey, he just barely touched it with his foot. Makes it hard to take them seriously.

Looking at the website, they are charging a lot of money to volunteer in this place. 5000 baht for a 1 day group tour (1-6 people), or 300 Euros for one week volunteering at the center.

Why should any monkey be taken out of a safe environment? no monkey that has been rescued should be put thorough this. where do you think they are taking them? do you care? the guy that barely touched that monkey? that monkey was unconcious <deleted> is that oK?

Pardon me for being ignorant, but should the goal not be returning them to the wild. This sounds more like a zoo where people with a guilt complex come to work.

Edited February 17, 2012 by robblok

[monkeysu]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dg8YGVabFeE&feature=youtu.be

In this video a macaque nearly drowns!

The people in these videos are hysterical. And the monkey doesn't almost drown, it was in the water for like 10 seconds. Same with the video claiming the worker was kicking an unconscious monkey, he just barely touched it with his foot. Makes it hard to take them seriously.

Looking at the website, they are charging a lot of money to volunteer in this place. 5000 baht for a 1 day group tour (1-6 people), or 300 Euros for one week volunteering at the center.

Why should any monkey be taken out of a safe environment? no monkey that has been rescued should be put thorough this. where do you think they are taking them? do you care? the guy that barely touched that monkey? that monkey was unconcious <deleted> is that oK?

Pardon me for being ignorant, but should the goal not be returning them to the wild. This sounds more like a zoo where people with a guilt complex come to work.

They so send the animlas they can back to the wild, but some have been in captivity all of their lives and lack the skills they need to survive in the wild. Some are too sick to go back and some simply don't have wild to go to. This is not a zoo. The WFFT is an organisation dedicated to taking care of animals that can not take care of themselves.

[cowslip]

Most of these animals are or were in care. They ended up there because they couldn't continue in the wild either temporarily or permanently.

Putting animals back in the wild isn&#39;t just a matter of opening a door and letting them go - they have to be cab able themselves of surfing and they have to have a habitat in which they can live.</p>

I refuse to belief that confiscating these animals has improved the lot of a single animal - it is simply a malicious action by some very, very stupid and ignorant people&nbsp;

Edited February 22, 2012 by cowslip

[VirginCrocodile]

The government of Thailand is not perfect nor is any government in the world. I believe the great King of Thailand is trying his best to help save nature in Thailand moreso than the Thai Government. Right now Thailand is suffering after a flood crisis and a huge loss in terms of economic development. I wish that we could find a way to live as one with the earth and revert back to the primitive way of life which would be a much more sustainable way to develop humanity and the rest of the world. The problem is with Human overpopulation already exceeding capacity in most countries, the only solution would be to enforce laws on every family having only 1 baby (NOT like China, where current laws allow the rich to have as many as they want) BUT ALL countries MUST enforce the same laws soon or we may need to colonize the moon immediately with a bio-dome or funding more research into NASA to accelerate the speed of space travel so we can reach the moon of Jupiter "Europa" which is capable of sustaining human life or at least to a certain extent. Basically you must understand that some of these NGO groups here in Thailand are making HUGE amounts of money in executive salaries and under the table payments as well. The actual amount of money from donations GOING to these groups is quite questionable. The departments of wild life in Thailand also has many officials and government agencies who are employed to protect wildlife but also who are money hungry purse snatchers as well. But Many Rangers and officials in the Forest department of Thailand truly do have compassion for animals and to slander ALL OF THEM as cruel, evil, and corrupted as was done by certain NGO groups is NOT a positive way to make change if you want to SAVE NATURE in Thailand and elsewhere in SE Asia . Some have reported mistreatment of animals in the living conditions at some of these NGO groups before the National park officials of Thailand arrived. Many NGO groups and Government sectors lack the proper organization and leadership to be truly effective in protecting endangered species and STOPPING the inhumane treatment of animals BUT if we learn to work TOGETHER and make progress WITH the government of Thailand, I'm sure we can make a much more POSITIVE IMPACT than slandering the entire Department of WildLife in Thailand as Torturers and Murderers. Propaganda by the media and by certain NGO groups can also make these very same outfits quite wealthy by gaining international attention. Me I need to go now, I have LIVES to save and minds to change one day at a time and in reality , MUCH more can be done to save endangered lives OUTSIDE as compared to right here ONLINE, I don't wish to engage in any debates with anyone because I only have respect for ALL life in Thailand. If we show eachother MUTUAL RESPECT it will reflect back to you in a positive way hopefully one day, its called Karma...

Much Love to everyone..

[wolf5370]

The government of Thailand is not perfect nor is any government in the world. I believe the great King of Thailand is trying his best to help save nature in Thailand moreso than the Thai Government. Right now Thailand is suffering after a flood crisis and a huge loss in terms of economic development. I wish that we could find a way to live as one with the earth and revert back to the primitive way of life which would be a much more sustainable way to develop humanity and the rest of the world. The problem is with Human overpopulation already exceeding capacity in most countries, the only solution would be to enforce laws on every family having only 1 baby (NOT like China, where current laws allow the rich to have as many as they want) BUT ALL countries MUST enforce the same laws soon or we may need to colonize the moon immediately with a bio-dome or funding more research into NASA to accelerate the speed of space travel so we can reach the moon of Jupiter "Europa" which is capable of sustaining human life or at least to a certain extent. Basically you must understand that some of these NGO groups here in Thailand are making HUGE amounts of money in executive salaries and under the table payments as well. The actual amount of money from donations GOING to these groups is quite questionable. The departments of wild life in Thailand also has many officials and government agencies who are employed to protect wildlife but also who are money hungry purse snatchers as well. But Many Rangers and officials in the Forest department of Thailand truly do have compassion for animals and to slander ALL OF THEM as cruel, evil, and corrupted as was done by certain NGO groups is NOT a positive way to make change if you want to SAVE NATURE in Thailand and elsewhere in SE Asia . Some have reported mistreatment of animals in the living conditions at some of these NGO groups before the National park officials of Thailand arrived. Many NGO groups and Government sectors lack the proper organization and leadership to be truly effective in protecting endangered species and STOPPING the inhumane treatment of animals BUT if we learn to work TOGETHER and make progress WITH the government of Thailand, I'm sure we can make a much more POSITIVE IMPACT than slandering the entire Department of WildLife in Thailand as Torturers and Murderers. Propaganda by the media and by certain NGO groups can also make these very same outfits quite wealthy by gaining international attention. Me I need to go now, I have LIVES to save and minds to change one day at a time and in reality , MUCH more can be done to save endangered lives OUTSIDE as compared to right here ONLINE, I don't wish to engage in any debates with anyone because I only have respect for ALL life in Thailand. If we show eachother MUTUAL RESPECT it will reflect back to you in a positive way hopefully one day, its called Karma...

Much Love to everyone..

Firstly, if you make comment, you will get into debate - if you don't want to, don't make comment.

There is no excuse for carrying out immoral orders, military courts (and the Hague) have seen many times people claim to be acting on orders - and are nice guys really - tough. Some rangers may be sweet nature loving people, I bet none of those were in those cages knocking aniimals of purches and assigning animals to a very uncertain future.

These animals are rescues animals, many taken from their butchered parents as babies. They can not look after themselves as they were never taught to - they are dependant on humans and would quickly surcome in the wild.

Karma is all well an good, but it does not help these creatures. What is being done here is evil - it is revenge for some one losing a bit of potential profit when the WFFT spoke out against druging, abusing and illegal trade in animals, by religious temples that make huge profits from tricking tourists into believeing they are honourable. The government shows it cares not a jot as it would take little more than a phone call and some questions to get it sorted out - yet they are very quiet (3 monkeys).

Human over population is of little relevence here - these are not wild animals, and had a safe place to live.

I also doubt the WFFT is making huge profits - over 500 animals, enclosures, land, taxes, back handers to officials just to survive, work permits, wages for perminant staff, accomodation for volunteers, and so on - very few zoos make money, NGOs trying to use it as a model for profit is unlikely as Hill Tribes etc has much lower overheads.

[BookMan]

The government of Thailand is not perfect nor is any government in the world. I believe the great King of Thailand is trying his best to help save nature in Thailand moreso than the Thai Government. Right now Thailand is suffering after a flood crisis and a huge loss in terms of economic development. I wish that we could find a way to live as one with the earth and revert back to the primitive way of life which would be a much more sustainable way to develop humanity and the rest of the world. The problem is with Human overpopulation already exceeding capacity in most countries, the only solution would be to enforce laws on every family having only 1 baby (NOT like China, where current laws allow the rich to have as many as they want) BUT ALL countries MUST enforce the same laws soon or we may need to colonize the moon immediately with a bio-dome or funding more research into NASA to accelerate the speed of space travel so we can reach the moon of Jupiter "Europa" which is capable of sustaining human life or at least to a certain extent. Basically you must understand that some of these NGO groups here in Thailand are making HUGE amounts of money in executive salaries and under the table payments as well. The actual amount of money from donations GOING to these groups is quite questionable. The departments of wild life in Thailand also has many officials and government agencies who are employed to protect wildlife but also who are money hungry purse snatchers as well. But Many Rangers and officials in the Forest department of Thailand truly do have compassion for animals and to slander ALL OF THEM as cruel, evil, and corrupted as was done by certain NGO groups is NOT a positive way to make change if you want to SAVE NATURE in Thailand and elsewhere in SE Asia . Some have reported mistreatment of animals in the living conditions at some of these NGO groups before the National park officials of Thailand arrived. Many NGO groups and Government sectors lack the proper organization and leadership to be truly effective in protecting endangered species and STOPPING the inhumane treatment of animals BUT if we learn to work TOGETHER and make progress WITH the government of Thailand, I'm sure we can make a much more POSITIVE IMPACT than slandering the entire Department of WildLife in Thailand as Torturers and Murderers. Propaganda by the media and by certain NGO groups can also make these very same outfits quite wealthy by gaining international attention. Me I need to go now, I have LIVES to save and minds to change one day at a time and in reality , MUCH more can be done to save endangered lives OUTSIDE as compared to right here ONLINE, I don't wish to engage in any debates with anyone because I only have respect for ALL life in Thailand. If we show eachother MUTUAL RESPECT it will reflect back to you in a positive way hopefully one day, its called Karma...

Much Love to everyone..

A handy tip: Paragraphs can be your friend.