Decent Advice Needed Over My Daughter?

[bankha]

If in wrong forum could mods move please.

Hello,

Just alot of questions and advice needed,

Short background

I spend half year in Thailand and half in Uk. Got a house out in Ratchaburi, been married 6 years and got a daughter of 5 years old. House and land in my daughters name so no problem there. Just found out my wife smokes drugs.

Ok questions i need answering,

1. Can i take my daughter out of the country, she has British passport with just me?

2. Can my soon to be x wife make my life hell at imm at airport if i try to take my daughter out of Thailand?

3. Do i need her consent to take my daughter out of the country?

4.If my wife is in a rehab place for drugs does anybody know if i could get full custody of my daughter?

5. Could my wife dad sign over full custody of my daughter to me ? (as he wants to do that) he also has had enough of his daughter.

6. Lastly anybody know of a decent family lawyer ? as if need be this will be my only route but i dont want to do that as will hurt my daughter.

Cheers,

Paul

[stoneyboy]

Hi this thread might help with a couple of your requests.

[Satcommlee]

I'm very sorry to read about your troubles, and I don't think anyone on the board is fully qualified to answer those questions.

I would be tempted to say (In my unqualified opinion) to pull a fast one, and get her out of the country on her British Passport but Immigration may need to see documentary proof that you have full parental responsibility/custody.

I would not necessarily travel direct to UK and perhaps do it via Malaysia or Singapore on a return ticket, or maybe better via Hong Kong (because you want to take your daughter to Disney World) reducing any suspicions at immigration counter.

I am afraid that the legal route could take years.

I hope you find your solution, good luck.

[bankha]

Cheers,

Satcommlee and stoneyboy,

As you can tell due to time i am in Uk at the moment. Satcommlee i think you just made my mind up for me. I am back home in 3 weeks. cheeers

[stoneyboy]

You will likely get some better response from the regulars in the morning Thai time obviously.

[Satcommlee]

Bankha,

Please wait for some other comments, there may be others that have been through the same ordeal that can offer much more than just an opinion.

But the way immigration is at the moment, you may want to fly out in the afternoon! the queue's are horrendous and I'm sure they don't want to invite hassle.

You need to answer another question, "How would immigration react to your daughters clean UK passport being presented on departure"

[theblether]

Go have a look at this forum just now as you are probably hungry for information.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/forum/96-family-and-children/

[DP25]

4.If my wife is in a rehab place for drugs does anybody know if i could get full custody of my daughter?

It's possible, the judges don't take kindly to drug use and will grant full custody to a foreign father if it's in the best interest of the child

[Carib]

Not too long ago there was a topic about a father traveling with his child and it seems there were some new rules? or ??? about parental consent for leaving the country, found this, but it is not the one I was looking for.

Bankha, don't act to hastily, give this forum some time to respond, enough knowledge here to answer most of your questions or some good advice.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/536289-travelling-with-thai-born-child/

[necronx99]

There are regulations in place to stop children being moved OS without both parents explicit consent.

How well they are enforced is a grey area. A recent poster was pulled up at the airport attempting to take his child out alone.

You (legally) need her consent to travel with your child. If she knows what you are doing and objects, she can make your life _very_ difficult.

If she is a documented drug user you have a good chance of getting custody, particularly if you have the familys' support.

Get a lawyer.

[GuestHouse]

You imply, but you do not specifically state that you plan to divorce your wife and obtain full custody of your child.

You should first of all engage a good family lawyer, I realise you have asked for a recommendation and while I cannot recommend a family lawyer I would recommend you go to one of the main International law firms in Bangkok, not your local Somchai Law firm.

In the past I have used http://www.tilleke.com for non family law work, they do have a family law service.

The advantage of using an international law firm is they will understand, and be able to process the necessary translations and ratifications with the British Embassy.

If you decide to get divorced then go for full custody with the explicit written agreement that your daughter resides with you outside of Thailand and an explicit life long agreement that you may take travel overseas with your daughter as and when you wish - Life long permission to travel.

Also get explicit agreement on the conditions under which your daughter spends time with her mother - You say the mother is a drug addict - then go for fully supervised visits with no overnight or away from you stays.

When you get your agreement, get this formally translated by an approved translator and then get it ratified at the British Embassy.

Once back in the UK take the agreement to a family lawyer back home and get the agreement recorded in a UK family court.

[GuestHouse]

Adds.

The specific legislation regarding children travelling with/without parental permission is the "Hague Convention"

My wife who often travels with our children alone has NEVER been stopped and questioned regarding parental permission to travel, though she always carries a permission with her.

I have frequently been stopped and questioned - It really is a necessity.

--------

Oh and one last question, how old is the OP? This of course being a case where the options for a young father are far more open then those for an old father.

[craigt3365]

Great responses. But let's try this over in the Family and Children forum. OK?

Topic Moved.

[rockderk]

Your daughter needs a Thai passport to leave with. Using a british passport to leave, immigration would need to see her visa. How on earth did you get the house and land in your daughter's name? I thought they had to be 18 to sign, or be named on legal docs.

[RudieTheFoodie]

Try to help your wife first. While I would set a clear cut off point with certain caveats - if you can get her clean and back on track it might be best for you ALL in the long run.

Good luck.

[jvs]

If you are planning on getting a divorce and not helping your wife to overcome this addiction then you will need proof of her use of drugs.

It would mean report her to the police,this is a big step but it would help you a lot in court later on.She will probably hate you forever and fight you every step of the way but if you are concerned about your daughter it may be the right thing to do.

About the property being in your daughters name,your wife has a stake in this until your daughter becomes of age?

The family will not think long about who to choose for,you will be on your own.

Like the other posters said,get a good lawyer.

[bankha]

Cheers for the advice,

Guesthouse i am 35 years old.

Rodderck my daughter has a british and a tha passport so need for visa.

My daughter co signed with my wifes dad then as you say it will legally become hers when she 18.

Going to look for lawyer today.

Also the police have stopped her plenty of times and supposedly she says she had been to jail once for a week. (not sure if that true or not though)

Paul

[theblether]

Guesthouse is a wealth of knowledge.

All UK nationals should remember that the UK court system is probably the strictest in the world when it comes to following family law, or as Guesthouse pointed out, the Hague Convention.

The over riding act that protects child welfare in the UK is the The Childrens Act 2004. here is the link........

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2004/31/contents

This act will be applied in any case involving a UK citizen child, and you will find that the family court judges are masters at cutting through the BS. They have heard it all before.

You will find that the UK courts have zero tolerance for anyone removing a child from their "home" country without permission. Home country is defined as country of family residence. There was a tragic case in Scotland recently that illustrates this......

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-12663965

Please note that both parents in that case were Americans normally resident in Scotland, therefore the Scottish courts held sway over all the issues deriving from the Childrens Act. If the mother had tried to remove the children to America then the Scottish courts would have recalled them on behalf of the father.

Any UK national in this position should read the Childrens Act, and use that as a basis of their actions in determining how their case would be regarded by the UK courts........here is the situation you are trying to avoid.......

http://www.scotsman.com/news/heartbreak_as_tug_of_love_boy_guillaume_ritchie_returns_to_french_mother_1_800191

Another one.......

http://www.scotsman.com/news/custody_battle_girl_returns_to_britain_1_1493574

If you think I am going on a bit, it is only to ensure that people realize that removal of children from their "home" country without permission will result in a car crash scene when the courts get involved.

[Mario2008]

Permission of the mother is required to take the children out of the country and immirgation and airlines do sometimes check, especially if the last names are not the same or there are other possible indications of child trafficking. Even if you make it to the UK, you could still face serious problems there.

The grand fahter is no party to this and cannot sign his daughter's rights over to you. But he can testify against his daughter being a good mother in court and that would have an impact.

Thai courts are not biased against foreigners and will decide basd on what they see is in the best intrest of the child. Norm is that one parent will get prime parental rights and have the child living with him/her and the other has visitiation rights and the court can decide that the child can not be taken out of the country.

Sole parental rights is rare and only given in the case that the mother is unable to take care of the child or a danger to the child.

Drug abuse will be taken very seriously and would make you the prime caretaker of the child. Not sure about getting sole custody based on that, that is soemthing you have to discuss with a lawyer.

You will need a good lawyer with experience in family law. Isaanlawyers has a good reputation and might at least be able to direct you to another lawyer if they are int he wrong area for you.

[bankha]

Cheers mario and theblether,

Got a meeting with lawyer when return to Thailand in 3 weeks.

Also i got the name of the law firm from a Uk lawwyer today so hope that gives me more of a chance.

Paul

[Latindancer]

You haven't mentioned what kind of drug your wife smokes

Marijuana is pretty benign, really. A lot less destructive for people than alcohol. If this the case, go easy on her, mate.

If she's into methamphetamine, that's serious stuff. It makes people psychotic sometimes.

[henleyd]

A lot of people smoke drugs it dosnt mean that shes a bad mum ! Most people get help and stop! Shes getting help now! why dont you give her a chance. After rehab why not take both wife and daughter back to UK where drugs are too expensive to buy !

The question is do you love your wife ? If you really love her help her ! most people smoke because they are lonely depressed and or have too much time and money !

Most people that smoke drugs dont do it for long, Most people do stop after hitting rock bottom ! has she hit rock bottom ?

[EvilDrSomkid]

Smoke drugs? Is like saying eat food. Yes, but what?

Yaba(very bad) or cannabis(meh, big deal). Not the same.

Ask yourself this: Do you love your wife and do you want to take your daughter away from her mother?

[bankha]

Hello,

It is yaba, speaking to her dad today it is because like a poster said i am giving to much money to her. And as she does not work due to me giving her money and looking after our daughter and when my little girl is at school she gets bored.

[BigJohnnyBKK]

I would recommend as Plan A your doing what you can to help her overcome her addiction, but of course this requires her being highly motivated herself.

As Plan B, I would recommend your finding a way to get her to agree to a divorce, the terms of which are that she waives all maternal rights over the children. The process is very easy and can be done at the amphoe office, no need for lawyers.

You may find a one-time lump-sum payment sufficient motivation for her to do this voluntarily, combined with a convincing argument that this is what's best for your daughter.

I would also suggest you make it clear to her that if she can get herself clear of drugs in the future you'd consider letting her back into your lives. And support her in her efforts if they are genuine.

[jombom]

Hello,

It is yaba, speaking to her dad today it is because like a poster said i am giving to much money to her. And as she does not work due to me giving her money and looking after our daughter and when my little girl is at school she gets bored.

Perhaps you could also consider another option, based on your evaluation of the people involved. Many Thai women leave their children, to live with their families. It probably would be a lot cheaper for you. You could give child support, to the grandfather, and he might be happy to take care of the child. Mama i.e. grandpapa's wife has not been mentioned yet.

This option would save you a lot of money on child minding in the UK, and also save you buying 2 airline tickets, instead of one.

Re the option of jumping Thailand with the child, this is indeed a very bad idea. A guy I knew several years ago, did it. For the first 2 or 3 weeks in the UK all was fine. Then social services paid him a visit, and gave him 2 options.

1 was to bring the child back to it's mother in Thailand, and say he was only visiting the UK grandparents etc.

2 was that they would take the child into care, and when the courts in Thailand and UK worked out a solution, they would abide by the decision.

They gave him 24 hours to decide. He chose option 1.

Please do not buy into the idea, that somehow, it's your fault for giving her too much money. Unfortunately, in this society, in my view, there appears to be a desire to blame somebody else. Maybe something related to ''face'', or family honour.

Unfortunately, after rehab, the chances of relapse are very high. She will need a strong support structure, which she may not know, or may not be capable of finding. Her old friends will come round and offer her more drugs etc.

As many posters have mentioned, you will need a good lawyer. Strangely, in Thailand, the mechanics, or functioning of law, varies from province to province. Lawyers who like money, will probably suggest a civil suit between husband and wife. This ends up being rather expensive. A non-contested or agreed solution, ratified by the court, is far cheaper. Hence, the third option, mentioned at the beginning of my post above. Best of luck in your efforts.

[BigJohnnyBKK]

I concur with Jombom's statements, which don't conflict with my advice, which assumed you wanted to take hands-on responsibility for raising the child.

If you are going to leave the child in the care of relatives here in Thailand while you live mostly overseas, note that you will in any case be dependent on the good intentions and parenting skills of her caregivers. If you remain married to the mother, and the mother is in the picture, it is likely she will continue to be seen by everyone as the primary custodian of the child and in practice will have the ability to make decisions counter to your wishes, even if you are paying for everything.

If you do get divorced, it will be important for you to get full sole custody of the child - the Thai legal concept doesn't imply her being denied visitation rights (which IMO you should give her no matter what as long as the child's safety isn't endangered). It simply means that you and you alone have the legal right to determine where and with whom the child lives, dietary and religious guidelines, schooling decisions etc. In effect your goal is to get the mother to relinquish all of her rights as a mother.

Once you have that set up, then you may decide the child would best be served by remaining in Thailand with members of her extended family. You just need to be careful from a legal POV that this couldn't be interpreted as your not being able to look after her properly, probably need to work out how to clarify that will all concerned with a lawyer, it's not a clear-cut area.

And of course the practical matter remains that the mother being here and you over there, she will of course continue to exert a major influence over day-to-day practicalities, which may be perfectly OK. However as long as you retain the sole custodian legally, you have the right at any time to fly into Thailand and take her back with you to England, without requiring permission from anyone. As long as the locals understand that fact clearly, it should give you significant leverage in trying to ensure your wishes are carried out.

Also as a practical matter, note that you will in effect be sponsoring at least three or four family members subsistence living expenses as well as the direct education/healthcare costs, and will likely be pressured into paying for much more over the long run that won't necessarily be of direct benefit to your child. All of which will end up being much much less expensive and more convenient than raising her in the UK.

From a purely personal POV, not knowing your situation at all, I would advise nonetheless raising her yourself as a farang, as long as you are reasonably sure you can do a decent job as a father and inoculate her from the relative dangers of growing up in the UK. It's likely IMO she'll have a better life in the long run than being raised in Thailand, but of course the actual outcome depends on many unknown variables. The early years are the really critical ones from a psych/personality POV, and the later ones from an educational one.

I myself am raising two babies as a single father in Thailand, and think that is the best solution for them. The only (relatively minor) problem is financial, generating enough income here to pay for a decent education is a significant challenge.

[Mario2008]

A Thai court can give sole custody with the string attached that the child cannot be brought out of the country. If the mother brings this issue up, that is.

[Sing_Sling]

4.If my wife is in a rehab place for drugs does anybody know if i could get full custody of my daughter?

It's possible, the judges don't take kindly to drug use and will grant full custody to a foreign father if it's in the best interest of the child

4.If my wife is in a rehab place for drugs does anybody know if i could get full custody of my daughter?

It's possible, the judges don't take kindly to drug use and will grant full custody to a foreign father if it's in the best interest of the child

So, what is it? Possible? Definite? An 'If'?

OP, don't forget that taking the child without the mother's, or legal guardian's, permission is tantamount to kidnapping, so even if you get your child out of the country you could/will end up knee-deep in excrement