Tomboy Gik

[TommoPhysicist]

Oh yeah, those mostly religious ex-gay crap... But I was referring to more the general stereotype average men in this case have of a lesbian woman. It seems that they assume women to be more flexible, while men get the big spanks.

However, back to the whole ladyboy/toms thing. It seems that both groups are using certain gender roles in disguise, so that they can accept their homosexuality (and hope for others to do so too). Actually it's sad that they have to be someone else in order to live their life. But I don't think it's something that can never change in the future.

I'm totally gob-smacked how little you know about Thailand.

[oops]

I think that 90% of Thai women have a relationship with a Tom at some stage in their life, and then move on to a boyfriend/husband, but it is very difficult to convince the Tom that the relationship is over. Too many male hormones I think.

Yeh ! even the Thai guys have problems with it sometimes. I was just reading another Thaivisa post where the young Thai boy and future mother in law killed the Tom so that the boy could marry her daughter. I don't have anything against Toms but if she was being so bold you should do one fo two things...get rid of her, or invite her to bed with you...either one will be painful, however asking your girlfriend to pack her bags would be less leathel. Well in most cases, because when the money runs dry the Tom "pimp" is going to send her back to y ou to get more money so Tom "pimp" doesn't have to work.

[oops]

Some husbands would pay good money to watch that stuff.

YOU PERVERD....oh sorry this isn't America....carry on...

[endure]

It seems that there is this wishful thinking straight men have, that lesbian women will return to the "right" path one day... So called "exception" are either straight women experimenting, or lesbians who fear to accept their orientation.

But how about gay men? I've never saw any debate about this one.

I thought we were talking about Tom and Dee, as in not lesbians.

So why would you want to debate gay men

the opposing subject would be ladyboys and their boyfriends, as in not gay.

Just using your answer for a question here Tommo..

If Tom and Dee are the names given to lasbians (now debatable terminology) in a relationship, what names are given to the givers and takers (no offence meant to any gays reading, it was the only thing I could think of to define at the time) in a male homosexual (is this correct?) relationship?

What makes you think that gay males confine themselves to one particular form of sexual activity?

[oops]

He is stupid plain an simple. Real Thai women wouldn't dare let that happen.

She most likely has done this many times and fears nothing. I don't care what she says.

and just because you like her doesn' t mean she likes you or your friend.

.

[Bung]

If I was the husband I would be furious and very worried. It's not a GF it's his wife! I think it is very serious that the tom is hanging around and the wife is going to see her. If she was in a relationship before with her surely getting married would have ended it. That doesn't seem to be the case. The wife is not being straight with her husband about this, if it was him with a woman you could expect fireworks!

He needs to be very careful that he is not being set up and they think he is so stupid that they can carry on seeing each other. If it were me I would say I have to go make a visa or whatever, leave for a week and hire a private detective to see what happens. I would hardly ever recommend going to that extreme but if there ever was a reason to use a private eye this is it. If there is something going on you will see it in a week for sure. If not he needs to come back and put his foot down. Something like this would wreck the marriage for me though.

Those who are getting tittilated by the thought of a threesome think again. Do you really think a tomboy would be interested in sex with you? Haha, it might work if you dress up as a lady, make no mistake, she will be wearing the pants!

[kurnell]

I think that 90% of Thai women have a relationship with a Tom at some stage in their life, and then move on to a boyfriend/husband, but it is very difficult to convince the Tom that the relationship is over. Too many male hormones I think.

Based on what research do you make this proposition?

18 years of observation and interviews

[JurgenG]

Another point I can't agree with "I realise that I am lucky and that not everybody is able to be as detached as this".

I try to be as involved as I can in my relations. I care about other people. Empathy, have you ever heard about that ?

Do you think sex without love is immoral? Really?

Of course it's great when they coincide, and you as an individual may decide for yourself that you won't have sex with anyone unless you have emotional attachment to them.

But I honestly can't conceive how you can translate this to some sort of mandate that everyone breaking this rule somehow becomes "bad" in your eyes.

I shortened the post because here I believe here we are at the heart of the problem

I'm not talking about sex, I'm talking about relation. That may involve sex or not. The only rule you break is not caring about the people you have a relation with.

But anyway I don't really think you don't care, it's just a defense mechanism when they leave you.

Edited May 7, 2012 by JurgenG

[lovelomsak]

A little update on this situation. The guy called me last night. He said he decided to deal with the problem.

What he did was told the wife if the (tomboy) wants to touch her then she can take care of her. But at the present time he pays the bills and takes care of her. So its up to her. Then he told her that he wanted the (tomboy) to come for drinks and dinner with the wife alone on saturday and they could do what ever they liked but it would be the last time they ever saw each other. He told his wife if the (tomboy) misbehaved like last time then he would simply start feeling his wife up in front of the (tomboy) and tell the (tomboy) to join in. He let her know they would both play with her at the same time.He also said he wouldnot touch the (tomboy) but both could do what ever they wanted to his wife.

I quess he told her both of them showed him no respect last time so both of them didnot deserve his respect. He told her thought she was a liar about saying they never had sex together. So it was time to settle it. If she didnot like his terms she could leave now without the second chance. She said she understood and would do as he said.

He says the (iomboy) came to their house saturday and his wife and her talked ,ate and drank for 2 hours and didnot even touch ( he recorded it on a hidden cam).When it was time to go home the (tomboy) sat in the backseat and didnot move. At the (tomboy),s house he said they looked each other in the eyes with very sad eyes and didnot even hug goodbye.

He hopes its over and told his wife to never see her again or go to her house. If she ever does it could mean the end of their relationship.

What he told me was he had no choice. He couldnot let himself be made a fool of.He felt he had way more to lose by doing nothing. He felt he would lose self pride, and respect for himself if he didnot face the problem. He saw it as a win ,win situation.He came out of it as a man no matter what the outcome.Be he alone again or still have his wife.He said the odd part was he felt good the whole time ,there was no worry or concerns. He wasnot in the least worried about which way it went.

I like him more as friend now than ever.

Edited May 7, 2012 by lovelomsak

[BigJohnnyBKK]

Do you think sex without love is immoral? Really?

Of course it's great when they coincide, and you as an individual may decide for yourself that you won't have sex with anyone unless you have emotional attachment to them.

But I honestly can't conceive how you can translate this to some sort of mandate that everyone breaking this rule somehow becomes "bad" in your eyes.

I shortened the post because here I believe here we are at the heart of the problem

I'm not talking about sex, I'm talking about relation. That may involve sex or not. The only rule you break is not caring about the people you have a relation with.

But anyway I don't really think you don't care, it's just a defense mechanism when they leave you.

I honestly don't understand. Let's separate out two scenarios.

A In my earlier days here I was a major customer of the explicit sex industry. According to my interpretation of the above, that's just sex and no relationship and you agree there isn't anything immoral about that. Correct?

B More recently I have relationships that start out as purely "transactional" as there isn't any claim by either of us that we are in love with each other or plan to marry or anything like that. I certainly do care for the other though, in the sense that I am consciously working to advance her interests, to help her achieve her goals in life, and also to help her grow as a whole person.

Side note - this to me is my definition of real love, as opposed to the biologically programmed pheromone- and hormone-driven emotional rush of "romantic love". While I certainly enjoy this feeling, I don't currently indulge myself in it, and would certainly no longer rely on that as the basis for a long-term relationship.

So AFAIC I definitely care about those I am in relationship with, and in fact continue to care about them after they "graduate", and very often the feeling is reciprocal.

I don't have any expectation that any of these girls will stay with me for any pre-determined period of time, and don't impose or accept feelings of possession or exclusivity, try to keep things on a professional level. When jealousy arises it needs to be dealt with, processed like other fear-based negative emotions like guilt or worry or anger.

Is that more clear? Is there still a **moral** issue here as far as you're concerned?

[BigJohnnyBKK]

I think that 90% of Thai women have a relationship with a Tom at some stage in their life, and then move on to a boyfriend/husband, but it is very difficult to convince the Tom that the relationship is over. Too many male hormones I think.

Based on what research do you make this proposition?

18 years of observation and interviews

I don't buy it. Maybe you're counting childhood/adolescent fooling around? I wouldn't. Maybe you're counting kissing and cuddling, bit of petting? I wouldn't. I would only count post-puberty sexual relationships, involving an extended period of strong intimacy and repeated sessions involving let's just say more serious activities.

And would be very surprised to see a number higher than say 40%.

[elrey]

i think predatory Dykes are worst than the most boorish, abusive men,

they prey on the emotions of the fragile women

they victimize and lure them into their lifestyle, causing more heartache and pain, while exposing them to ridicule and social stigma.

plus, men have tongues too, why not just try to find a nicer guy? Rug-munching, hey - we got that covered, plus we got the tool as well.. Viagra is the perfect C-Cell battery if long lasting is what you're looking for ladies..

\

Red Hair is not a human abberation.

Edited May 7, 2012 by elrey

[BigJohnnyBKK]

Red Hair is not a human abberation.

It is if you use the word correctly.

My whole point is that being born with ambiguous sexuality, even physically, is statistically not in the majority but a perfectly normal condition, and has as much relevance to "morality" as say having different colored eyes or liking the taste of bitter vegetables.

[lovelaos]

There seem to be regular 'tom' threads starting these days!

Why heterosexual guys think they'd get off watching their GF with a masculine looking tom, I have no idea.

Not all toms are masculine - T.I.T.

One family member,a University student, is in a relationship with a good looking tom. I see them often. The Dee considers she eventually wants to marry and have kids. I made the logical suggestion that they find a guy who understands and both live with him as Mia & Mia Noi. They always chatter excitedly about that idea, but don't yet have a boyfriend.

The other day, I saw two toms walking in the mall. Both cute. Then as I got close, I heard them talking - deep male voices - T.I.T.

PM me this family member's email address please

[Slip]

A little update on this situation. The guy called me last night. He said he decided to deal with the problem.

What he did was told the wife if the (tomboy) wants to touch her then she can take care of her. But at the present time he pays the bills and takes care of her. So its up to her. Then he told her that he wanted the (tomboy) to come for drinks and dinner with the wife alone on saturday and they could do what ever they liked but it would be the last time they ever saw each other. He told his wife if the (tomboy) misbehaved like last time then he would simply start feeling his wife up in front of the (tomboy) and tell the (tomboy) to join in. He let her know they would both play with her at the same time.He also said he wouldnot touch the (tomboy) but both could do what ever they wanted to his wife.

I quess he told her both of them showed him no respect last time so both of them didnot deserve his respect. He told her thought she was a liar about saying they never had sex together. So it was time to settle it. If she didnot like his terms she could leave now without the second chance. She said she understood and would do as he said.

He says the (iomboy) came to their house saturday and his wife and her talked ,ate and drank for 2 hours and didnot even touch ( he recorded it on a hidden cam).When it was time to go home the (tomboy) sat in the backseat and didnot move. At the (tomboy),s house he said they looked each other in the eyes with very sad eyes and didnot even hug goodbye.

He hopes its over and told his wife to never see her again or go to her house. If she ever does it could mean the end of their relationship.

What he told me was he had no choice. He couldnot let himself be made a fool of.He felt he had way more to lose by doing nothing. He felt he would lose self pride, and respect for himself if he didnot face the problem. He saw it as a win ,win situation.He came out of it as a man no matter what the outcome.Be he alone again or still have his wife.He said the odd part was he felt good the whole time ,there was no worry or concerns. He wasnot in the least worried about which way it went.

I like him more as friend now than ever.

(Sorry- I couldn't resist- thanks for the update, glad it worked out so well for your pal),

[BigJohnnyBKK]

Relevant

I hope this evokes nothing but sadness and anger.

[pxlgirl]

Things would be much easier when girls dressing like a dude would be simply a matter of taste or style, not more not less. Thailand has toms and dee's the west has butch/femmes, which would be fine if they would not be used as some sort of "political statement". Both of them create stereotypes and exclude gay people even more than they already are. I never really got this, gays want to be accepted within the society, but refuse to follow some rules that would apply to everybody else in the society.

[pxlgirl]

Relevant

I'd love to punch this dude with pleasure! Who's with me? Men up, give a good punch!!!

[soundman]

Please do not use derogatory terms when referring to groups of certain sexual orientation.

Posts and associated replies have been removed from view.

[pxlgirl]

i think predatory Dykes are worst than the most boorish, abusive men,

they prey on the emotions of the fragile women

they victimize and lure them into their lifestyle, causing more heartache and pain, while exposing them to ridicule and social stigma.

Can a cute well build guy with a nice big friend victimize and lure you into his "life style"? No? Why not? Why would only women have that luxury? We're all human, aren't we? So... please rethink your post.

plus, men have tongues too, why not just try to find a nicer guy? Rug-munching, hey - we got that covered, plus we got the tool as well.. Viagra is the perfect C-Cell battery if long lasting is what you're looking for ladies..

But guys have a hole too along with another long lasting friend. You gotta stick together, right guys? Dude, get over it! Just like gay men are not into pussy, lesbian women are not into dicks.

[lovelomsak]

Things would be much easier when girls dressing like a dude would be simply a matter of taste or style, not more not less. Thailand has toms and dee's the west has butch/femmes, which would be fine if they would not be used as some sort of "political statement". Both of them create stereotypes and exclude gay people even more than they already are. I never really got this, gays want to be accepted within the society, but refuse to follow some rules that would apply to everybody else in the society.

I totally agree with you on if they simply followed rules that apply to everyone there would be lot less problems. I feel none of us are interested in the sex lives of our hetero friends so why should we give a care about the sex life of a gay? But it seems to be the case that gays want to put their sex life on exhibit for all to see. Here in Thailand not a day goes by that I donot see what I would call lesbians touching breasts and other parts of each others bodies in public. I never see that done by hetero couples. They donot need my acceptance to be gay or in love . Just live and be considerate of the norms.

Edited May 7, 2012 by lovelomsak

[pxlgirl]

But it seems to be the case that gays want to put their sex life on exhibit for all to see.

To be fair though, many gay couples actually do live a normal life, but since the others stand out, people think everyone is like that. People have to be aware that if they act/dress a certain way, others will react in a certain way to them too. A straight guy touching his gf's boobs in public would also get some dirty looks (if not more), just like a woman doing the same to her gf.

[gand]

A little update on this situation. The guy called me last night. He said he decided to deal with the problem.

What he did was told the wife if the (tomboy) wants to touch her then she can take care of her. But at the present time he pays the bills and takes care of her. So its up to her. Then he told her that he wanted the (tomboy) to come for drinks and dinner with the wife alone on saturday and they could do what ever they liked but it would be the last time they ever saw each other. He told his wife if the (tomboy) misbehaved like last time then he would simply start feeling his wife up in front of the (tomboy) and tell the (tomboy) to join in. He let her know they would both play with her at the same time.He also said he wouldnot touch the (tomboy) but both could do what ever they wanted to his wife.

I quess he told her both of them showed him no respect last time so both of them didnot deserve his respect. He told her thought she was a liar about saying they never had sex together. So it was time to settle it. If she didnot like his terms she could leave now without the second chance. She said she understood and would do as he said.

He says the (iomboy) came to their house saturday and his wife and her talked ,ate and drank for 2 hours and didnot even touch ( he recorded it on a hidden cam).When it was time to go home the (tomboy) sat in the backseat and didnot move. At the (tomboy),s house he said they looked each other in the eyes with very sad eyes and didnot even hug goodbye.

He hopes its over and told his wife to never see her again or go to her house. If she ever does it could mean the end of their relationship.

What he told me was he had no choice. He couldnot let himself be made a fool of.He felt he had way more to lose by doing nothing. He felt he would lose self pride, and respect for himself if he didnot face the problem. He saw it as a win ,win situation.He came out of it as a man no matter what the outcome.Be he alone again or still have his wife.He said the odd part was he felt good the whole time ,there was no worry or concerns. He wasnot in the least worried about which way it went.

I like him more as friend now than ever.

I hope that works out for him and I hope the ladies do not plot his demise.

[lovelomsak]

But it seems to be the case that gays want to put their sex life on exhibit for all to see.

To be fair though, many gay couples actually do live a normal life, but since the others stand out, people think everyone is like that. People have to be aware that if they act/dress a certain way, others will react in a certain way to them too. A straight guy touching his gf's boobs in public would also get some dirty looks (if not more), just like a woman doing the same to her gf.

Yes that is my point if a straight guy did touch a his gf in public it would be frowned on but I never see straight guys doing it everyday only gays and usually women. Are they looking for acceptance or simply flaunting. If it is acceptance, I am a complete stranger why would they care if I accept their relationship or not? Love isnot done by committee.

[pxlgirl]

Not me, but maybe if a young boy was molested by a man, he could be freaked into... well.. becoming a freak..

Nah, the poor boy would suffer big time from depression, PTSD and other things. Just like any girl would who got molested by a man. It would damage them for life. This has absolutely nothing to do with their orientation.

[kerryk]

Things would be much easier when girls dressing like a dude would be simply a matter of taste or style, not more not less. Thailand has toms and dee's the west has butch/femmes, which would be fine if they would not be used as some sort of "political statement". Both of them create stereotypes and exclude gay people even more than they already are. I never really got this, gays want to be accepted within the society, but refuse to follow some rules that would apply to everybody else in the society.

I totally agree with you on if they simply followed rules that apply to everyone there would be lot less problems. I feel none of us are interested in the sex lives of our hetero friends so why should we give a care about the sex life of a gay? But it seems to be the case that gays want to put their sex life on exhibit for all to see. Here in Thailand not a day goes by that I donot see what I would call lesbians touching breasts and other parts of each others bodies in public. I never see that done by hetero couples. They donot need my acceptance to be gay or in love . Just live and be considerate of the norms.

I am assuming you live in Chiang Mai because it is not done in a normal Thai town in my experience.

[bonobo]

Not me, but maybe if a young boy was molested by a man, he could be freaked into... well.. becoming a freak..

This is my opinion, I'll stick by it...

And that is an opinion in which very few professionals would agree.

I was raped by a guy when I was a young boy. It was a pretty demeaning and traumatizing experience. I hate to break it to you, but despite that, I have no gay leanings or tendencies. I blame that one criminal, and if I met him again, I might take some retaliatory action against him and him alone, but that hardly reflects on others, nor did the experience turn me in any direction that my genetic make-up didn't plan for me to go.

[lovelomsak]

Things would be much easier when girls dressing like a dude would be simply a matter of taste or style, not more not less. Thailand has toms and dee's the west has butch/femmes, which would be fine if they would not be used as some sort of "political statement". Both of them create stereotypes and exclude gay people even more than they already are. I never really got this, gays want to be accepted within the society, but refuse to follow some rules that would apply to everybody else in the society.

I totally agree with you on if they simply followed rules that apply to everyone there would be lot less problems. I feel none of us are interested in the sex lives of our hetero friends so why should we give a care about the sex life of a gay? But it seems to be the case that gays want to put their sex life on exhibit for all to see. Here in Thailand not a day goes by that I donot see what I would call lesbians touching breasts and other parts of each others bodies in public. I never see that done by hetero couples. They donot need my acceptance to be gay or in love . Just live and be considerate of the norms.

I am assuming you live in Chiang Mai because it is not done in a normal Thai town in my experience.

No not Chiang Mai a small amphur. I see it daily anywhere people sit at Mr Donut, Big C in the aisles, ice gream parlours, restaurants. Any where they can sit and touch they do it. Big C they do it in the aisles.

I amnot talking Thai friendly touchs that are so common but grabbing breasts and putting hands in very private areas.

Edited May 7, 2012 by lovelomsak

[Berkshire]

Not me, but maybe if a young boy was molested by a man, he could be freaked into... well.. becoming a freak..

This is my opinion, I'll stick by it...

And that is an opinion in which very few professionals would agree.

I was raped by a guy when I was a young boy. It was a pretty demeaning and traumatizing experience. I hate to break it to you, but despite that, I have no gay leanings or tendencies. I blame that one criminal, and if I met him again, I might take some retaliatory action against him and him alone, but that hardly reflects on others, nor did the experience turn me in any direction that my genetic make-up didn't plan for me to go.

That's quite an admission, Bonobo, and I admire your courage for bringing it up. As for Elrey, he seems like somewhat of a homophobe. Gays require a traumatic experience to become homosexual? I'm not gay and no amount of prison-shower-gang-rape can change my sexual orientation. It's not something that you can decide--either you are or you're not. That's something that the far right never seems to get. People should not be discriminated against what they are. It's much, much easier to change, say, religion than sexual orientation. Yet, that's a well-documented protected right.

[pxlgirl]

Found this on Wikipedia, I think it sums it up pretty clearly:

"Homosexuality and homosexual pedophilia are not synonymous. In fact, it may be that these two orientations are mutually exclusive, the reason being that the homosexual male is sexually attracted to masculine qualities whereas the heterosexual male is sexually attracted to feminine characteristics, and the sexually immature child’s qualities are more feminine than masculine...The child offender who is attracted to and engaged in adult sexual relationships is heterosexual. It appears, therefore, that the adult heterosexual male constitutes a greater sexual risk to underage children than does the adult homosexual male."

Full article over here...