Canadian Sisters Died In Thailand From Drinking Cocktail That Contained Insect Repellent

[F1fanatic]

Thanks to all who gave links and the video.

This is very important to me because insects come from far and wide to bite me and I had no idea what so ever that there were risks with mozzy sprays.

I have been using local repellents containing 12 or 13% DEET.

The links say the risks are acceptable compared to catching mosquito-born diseases such as malaria, dengue fever, and West Nile virus.

However, it seems that the risks increase dramatically if I am also in contact with pesticides.

If hotels generally spray pesticides and I apply DEET topically, could the combination be problematic?

or does it need much larger concentrations of DEET?

There was a suggestion that these combinations caused Gulf War Syndrome - scary.

Thank goodness I do not have small children, their small bodies makes them more vulnerable.

What a crazy world we live in.....

Please @laislica don't start listening to these scare mongers, I have been using DEET products for years and regularly spray my house with mozzie killers and, I confess, am now in the middle age group. I just had a check up at my doctors and she proclaimed me fit as a 20 year old, she didn't have to amputate any additional heads or limbs that I'd grown. DEET is safe if used as directed. I go out into really mosquito infested places and by dressing sensibly and applying DEET sparingly in exposed places I seldom get bitten.

Read post 214....

[sysardman]

Thanks to all who gave links and the video.

This is very important to me because insects come from far and wide to bite me and I had no idea what so ever that there were risks with mozzy sprays.

I have been using local repellents containing 12 or 13% DEET.

The links say the risks are acceptable compared to catching mosquito-born diseases such as malaria, dengue fever, and West Nile virus.

However, it seems that the risks increase dramatically if I am also in contact with pesticides.

If hotels generally spray pesticides and I apply DEET topically, could the combination be problematic?

or does it need much larger concentrations of DEET?

There was a suggestion that these combinations caused Gulf War Syndrome - scary.

Thank goodness I do not have small children, their small bodies makes them more vulnerable.

What a crazy world we live in.....

Please @laislica don't start listening to these scare mongers, I have been using DEET products for years and regularly spray my house with mozzie killers and, I confess, am now in the middle age group. I just had a check up at my doctors and she proclaimed me fit as a 20 year old, she didn't have to amputate any additional heads or limbs that I'd grown. DEET is safe if used as directed. I go out into really mosquito infested places and by dressing sensibly and applying DEET sparingly in exposed places I seldom get bitten.

Read post 214....

Sorry don't get the connection at all with my post ,maybe DEET is making me senile

[TommyDee]

I live on Phi Phi for half of the year and I can tell you FOR CERTAIN that it is entirely possible and plausible that the two candian girls died from drinking a lethal cocktail containing deet.

I know people who have drunk the 4 x100 and who have also drunk variations on same, by adding redbull to this mix, ground up mossie coils, crushed pain medication tablets, and even unknown types of drugs just to see what they will do (in one instance it was a cholesterol reducing drug that someone had left in a guesthouse after checking out).

Whether or not the girls were aware of the added deet will maybe never be known, but I have tasted Kratom (the natural leaves, not the boiled version or the 4 x 100) and it is extremely bitter and quite disgusting so the girls might have been told they were just drinking nam tom or the 4 x 100, which although still somewhat dangerous, rarely results in death. (I have heard some places use the mossie coils when they can't get magic mushies as it produces a similar high/effect, so perhaps they thought they were having a mushie shake.)

Whatever the case, it is not a stupid, farfetched, or fake possiblity... these things do exist and are drunk every day, especially in southern thailand, and if this indeed is what was uncovered by the autopsy results, it makes a lot of sense.

Unfortunately, many of the locals I know who use variations of the kratom mixes have done so because of their addictions to methamphetamine (ya ice and ya ba) and various other speed-like drugs. When they can't get ice or whatever, they mix up nam tom (boiled kratom leaves) which has a similar effect of enabling them to stay awake for days on end, and when they need a bigger high, they add all the other stuff to it.

The people I know personally who use such items were all victims of the tsunami, and all lost loved ones, and the majority of them turned to drugs as a coping mechanism and ended up becoming addicts.

It's a sad but very real tragedy that I see evidence of everytime I'm home on the island, and is a constant reminder of what can happen to survivors when there is no care or follow up. None of these people received any counselling, for grief or coping or loss or depression or anything. The only medical help they received was to fix the external wounds, not the mental damage. So do not judge them for becoming drug addicts when for a long time after the tsunami that was the only way they could forget what happened, and get rid of the sadness.

Having such widespread use of illicit substances rife within local communities like Phi Phi which are tourist targets, means the word quickly spreads among the tourists eager to have a good time while on holidays. Recreational drug users, even non drug users, are more likely to do a bit of experimenting while on holidays, especially young adults leaving home for the first time and so on. Yet all holiday makers (regardless of whether they choose to try drugs etc) are also more likely to become targets ... whether it be from locals requiring money with which to feed their drug habits or support their families, and from locals or non locals keen to engage in sex acts, or steal items from the drug affected recipients or whatever.

Sadly, some individuals, and even some bars on Phi Phi have chosen to exploit this need/desire by selling or making easily available, buckets containing such substances. Buckets should be banned as those sold in the crazy beach bars on Phi Phi are usually premixed behind the scenes so there's no way of customers knowing exactly what's going into them (in contrast to the buckets sold in small stalls/shops which have unopened bottles of alcohol and mixers in them). What's more, due to the large wide opening of each bucket, it's extremely easy to add unknown poisonous substances at any time without the customer realising.

Banning buckets won't solve all the problems, but it will give people like the two canadians who died a better chance of knowing what they're actually drinking. Next step is obviously police checks and regular random tests to shut down the bars supplying the customers with shit mixes (ie 4 x 100, kratom, 1-2-call, magic mushie shakes et al) because sadly, it's very easy for tourists to buy pre mixed drug cocktails, KNOWINGLY, over the counter at more than one establishment on Phi Phi. Thirdly, spread the word. Because my first two points will take time to implement, let's all do the third. Say no to buckets, and say no to anything not mixed in clear view of the public. Watch your drinks, and avoid dabbling in the local drug scene. Whether the two girls died of one of the locally available drug cocktails or not,and whether they knew what they were drinking or not, these cocktails are very real, they do exist, and they could kill anyone.

My sincere condolences to the family of the two girls who died, such a very sad, and very tragic ending to what should have been a wonderful time in their short lives.

a very informative post, thanks. I still dont understand the "desirability" of adding deet or, god forbid, a mozzie coil to the drink. magic mushrooms, of course, have been around for eons, but the other two are kind of weird. and you say the drink taste foul too, which I suppose explains the coke?

[F1fanatic]

Thanks to all who gave links and the video.

This is very important to me because insects come from far and wide to bite me and I had no idea what so ever that there were risks with mozzy sprays.

I have been using local repellents containing 12 or 13% DEET.

The links say the risks are acceptable compared to catching mosquito-born diseases such as malaria, dengue fever, and West Nile virus.

However, it seems that the risks increase dramatically if I am also in contact with pesticides.

If hotels generally spray pesticides and I apply DEET topically, could the combination be problematic?

or does it need much larger concentrations of DEET?

There was a suggestion that these combinations caused Gulf War Syndrome - scary.

Thank goodness I do not have small children, their small bodies makes them more vulnerable.

What a crazy world we live in.....

Please @laislica don't start listening to these scare mongers, I have been using DEET products for years and regularly spray my house with mozzie killers and, I confess, am now in the middle age group. I just had a check up at my doctors and she proclaimed me fit as a 20 year old, she didn't have to amputate any additional heads or limbs that I'd grown. DEET is safe if used as directed. I go out into really mosquito infested places and by dressing sensibly and applying DEET sparingly in exposed places I seldom get bitten.

Read post 214....

Sorry don't get the connection at all with my post ,maybe DEET is making me senile

Sorry, my computer/internet is playing up.... Hopefully it should be post 210.

Edit - Anyway, Lialica's second post on this page!

Edited September 1, 2012 by F1fanatic

[Chads]

Man this is messed up. I'm gonna stick with branded, sealed liqour as I always have.

[RogueLeader]

The LD50 for DEET is about 2g / kg of body weight. These two women would have needed around 100g of DEET each to each stand a 50% chance of dying.

Someone is lying.

EDIT: I'll read to the end of the thread next time

Edited September 1, 2012 by RogueLeader

[pointoffew]

My wife says the "cocktail" is called 1-2-Call.

From now on a.k.a. Thai Dating

Edited September 1, 2012 by pointoffew

[melcoe]

I live on Phi Phi for half of the year and I can tell you FOR CERTAIN that it is entirely possible and plausible that the two candian girls died from drinking a lethal cocktail containing deet.

I know people who have drunk the 4 x100 and who have also drunk variations on same, by adding redbull to this mix, ground up mossie coils, crushed pain medication tablets, and even unknown types of drugs just to see what they will do (in one instance it was a cholesterol reducing drug that someone had left in a guesthouse after checking out).

Whether or not the girls were aware of the added deet will maybe never be known, but I have tasted Kratom (the natural leaves, not the boiled version or the 4 x 100) and it is extremely bitter and quite disgusting so the girls might have been told they were just drinking nam tom or the 4 x 100, which although still somewhat dangerous, rarely results in death. (I have heard some places use the mossie coils when they can't get magic mushies as it produces a similar high/effect, so perhaps they thought they were having a mushie shake.)

Whatever the case, it is not a stupid, farfetched, or fake possiblity... these things do exist and are drunk every day, especially in southern thailand, and if this indeed is what was uncovered by the autopsy results, it makes a lot of sense.

Unfortunately, many of the locals I know who use variations of the kratom mixes have done so because of their addictions to methamphetamine (ya ice and ya ba) and various other speed-like drugs. When they can't get ice or whatever, they mix up nam tom (boiled kratom leaves) which has a similar effect of enabling them to stay awake for days on end, and when they need a bigger high, they add all the other stuff to it.

The people I know personally who use such items were all victims of the tsunami, and all lost loved ones, and the majority of them turned to drugs as a coping mechanism and ended up becoming addicts.

It's a sad but very real tragedy that I see evidence of everytime I'm home on the island, and is a constant reminder of what can happen to survivors when there is no care or follow up. None of these people received any counselling, for grief or coping or loss or depression or anything. The only medical help they received was to fix the external wounds, not the mental damage. So do not judge them for becoming drug addicts when for a long time after the tsunami that was the only way they could forget what happened, and get rid of the sadness.

Having such widespread use of illicit substances rife within local communities like Phi Phi which are tourist targets, means the word quickly spreads among the tourists eager to have a good time while on holidays. Recreational drug users, even non drug users, are more likely to do a bit of experimenting while on holidays, especially young adults leaving home for the first time and so on. Yet all holiday makers (regardless of whether they choose to try drugs etc) are also more likely to become targets ... whether it be from locals requiring money with which to feed their drug habits or support their families, and from locals or non locals keen to engage in sex acts, or steal items from the drug affected recipients or whatever.

Sadly, some individuals, and even some bars on Phi Phi have chosen to exploit this need/desire by selling or making easily available, buckets containing such substances. Buckets should be banned as those sold in the crazy beach bars on Phi Phi are usually premixed behind the scenes so there's no way of customers knowing exactly what's going into them (in contrast to the buckets sold in small stalls/shops which have unopened bottles of alcohol and mixers in them). What's more, due to the large wide opening of each bucket, it's extremely easy to add unknown poisonous substances at any time without the customer realising.

Banning buckets won't solve all the problems, but it will give people like the two canadians who died a better chance of knowing what they're actually drinking. Next step is obviously police checks and regular random tests to shut down the bars supplying the customers with shit mixes (ie 4 x 100, kratom, 1-2-call, magic mushie shakes et al) because sadly, it's very easy for tourists to buy pre mixed drug cocktails, KNOWINGLY, over the counter at more than one establishment on Phi Phi. Thirdly, spread the word. Because my first two points will take time to implement, let's all do the third. Say no to buckets, and say no to anything not mixed in clear view of the public. Watch your drinks, and avoid dabbling in the local drug scene. Whether the two girls died of one of the locally available drug cocktails or not,and whether they knew what they were drinking or not, these cocktails are very real, they do exist, and they could kill anyone.

My sincere condolences to the family of the two girls who died, such a very sad, and very tragic ending to what should have been a wonderful time in their short lives.

a very informative post, thanks. I still dont understand the "desirability" of adding deet or, god forbid, a mozzie coil to the drink. magic mushrooms, of course, have been around for eons, but the other two are kind of weird. and you say the drink taste foul too, which I suppose explains the coke?

Tom leaves themselves taste disgusting and are usually washed down with redbull! To the kratom mixes, they add sugar, other cough syrup type products, coke, redbull, whatever is sweet and syrupy to mask the bitter taste of other drugs used.

Kratom is not a desirable flavour but I guess it at least comes from a tree, however there's now problems with the leaves being sprayed with insecticide too so I wouldn't be surprised if that's also playing a role in the drug cocktails. People I know who eat the natural leaves (not in the boiled mixes or with anything else) now won't chew the leaves without first thoroughly washing them in water as some of them are still covered in insecticide. Some won't even eat unmarked leaves and choose instead those that are imperfect and have holes from where insects etc have eaten them as that's a good sign no poisonous insecticides have been used.

As for the Kratom mixes though, the insecticide covered leaves are probably seen as a bonus! And as for mossie coils/deet, my only guess as to there desirability is the fact they're cheap, readily available options that apparently give the mixes an extra kick. I haven't tried any of the kratom type mixes myself though so can't comment on the taste!

[Hellhound66]

Whoever mixed their drinks is guilty of murder. Period. How's the investigation going? Anyone knows?

Wow amazing, the first intelligent post in 10 pages. We know who put this in their drinks because they all three of them scarpered post haste off the Island as soon as they could. Luciano Tinto, 30, and his friend left the island in Krabi province on June 15 cutting his holiday short and Samantha Kay who also got sick the same night who scarpered sharpish off to Malaysia. They were all drinking together on the night in question.

But don't waste your time -this can never be proved unless the hospital where Samantha Kay stayed overnight took samples which is highly doubtful.

This will be my last post. The Hell Hound was right from the start and you were all......well you were you :-)

[F1fanatic]

Whoever mixed their drinks is guilty of murder. Period. How's the investigation going? Anyone knows?

Wow amazing, the first intelligent post in 10 pages. We know who put this in their drinks because they all three of them scarpered post haste off the Island as soon as they could. Luciano Tinto, 30, and his friend left the island in Krabi province on June 15 cutting his holiday short and Samantha Kay who also got sick the same night who scarpered sharpish off to Malaysia. They were all drinking together on the night in question.

But don't waste your time -this can never be proved unless the hospital where Samantha Kay stayed overnight took samples which is highly doubtful.

This will be my last post. The Hell Hound was right from the start and you were all......well you were you :-)

Aaah - so the acquaintances put Deet in the sisters' drinks? Or do we still need to wait for the Canadian autopsy results before agreeing that they were killed by Deet?

[Andre0720]

The report says they had DEET in their body. That doesn't mean the DEET came from a drink, that is them theorizing, and conveniently that explanation absolves anyone of blame. If their guesthouse room been sprayed with toxic chemicals and they contained DEET then it would also be in their bodies. I would think if people were regularly pouring DEET in to drinks, and it were capable of doing what happeend to these two girls, that people would be dropping dead left and right

Perhaps it would take just one moron who would think that his bottle of DEET could give him easy access to 2 cute girls.

[Andre0720]

And do not forget that clinical observations indicate poisoning with a quantity of DEET reaching:

Intentional Ingestion of DEET

Of the six reported cases of deliberate DEET ingestion, three led to death. In these cases, the amount ingested was 15-50 mL of 47.5% to 95% DEET in bottles. In two cases, bottles of DEET were drunk along with unspecified amounts of alcohol. Health effects included coma, unresponsiveness to pain and other stimuli, and death (Tenenbein 1987). In another case, a woman with a history of unipolar-depressive illness ingested a number of pills along with 50 mL of 95% DEET. She arrived at the hospital comatose and pulseless.

That is a lot ofDEET.

Edited September 1, 2012 by Andre0720

[melcoe]

So many foreigners in this country (not just here) die because of drug abuse. Full moon parties,with all sorts of drugs in the south, more heroin related deaths in the north, etc....

But would the TAT be interested in any investigation? Sad that the two girls had to die such a terrible death and it seems that there won't me much more information available.

People in heroin business mix strychnine into some bad quality stuff. It could make them high, or they could die.

Seems that too much of DEET came into their bodies. If they wanted to get high or not, shouldn't be the question.

Was it a "bar mixer" accident? Let's at least hope that some people have learned through such a tragedy.

I remember that the major's son of a bigger city in the UK died overdosed on Ko Panghan not too many moons ago.

English authorities took the dead body home and nothing has changed since then.

Did they really take that stuff, without knowing what was inside? Without the intention of trying to hurt anybody, but I've seen so many foreigners leaving their brains back home when heading to Thailand.

I'm still struggling to understand why any bar would put Deet into drinks?

Personally, I find it impossible to believe they knew that the drink contained Deet.

It's highly likely they didn't know it contained deet. Either they thought they were drinking the kratom mix 4 x 100, they didn't know the '1-2-call mix' contained deet, they thought it was a mushie shake, or they purchased a 'normal' alcohol/mixer bucket and were given the wrong ones, or their drinks were spiked by locals or non locals who were after their money/phones/bodies.

Why would any bar or any individual for that matter put deet into drinks? Because it's cheap, readily available, and isn't illegal to purchase, and has similar effects to other more desirable drugs (such as magic mushies) that come with a heftier price tag and can't always be delivered to a far away island like Phi Phi.

Illicit substances aren't always easy to come by on Phi Phi so the locals who live there have become very adept at working out how to substitute with other items or make do until the real stuff comes through. Word spreads on the new options and then the drug providers (often from within a bar) start offering it to the tourists to try.

[F1fanatic]

So many foreigners in this country (not just here) die because of drug abuse. Full moon parties,with all sorts of drugs in the south, more heroin related deaths in the north, etc....

But would the TAT be interested in any investigation? Sad that the two girls had to die such a terrible death and it seems that there won't me much more information available.

People in heroin business mix strychnine into some bad quality stuff. It could make them high, or they could die.

Seems that too much of DEET came into their bodies. If they wanted to get high or not, shouldn't be the question.

Was it a "bar mixer" accident? Let's at least hope that some people have learned through such a tragedy.

I remember that the major's son of a bigger city in the UK died overdosed on Ko Panghan not too many moons ago.

English authorities took the dead body home and nothing has changed since then.

Did they really take that stuff, without knowing what was inside? Without the intention of trying to hurt anybody, but I've seen so many foreigners leaving their brains back home when heading to Thailand.

I'm still struggling to understand why any bar would put Deet into drinks?

Personally, I find it impossible to believe they knew that the drink contained Deet.

It's highly likely they didn't know it contained deet. Either they thought they were drinking the kratom mix 4 x 100, they didn't know the '1-2-call mix' contained deet, they thought it was a mushie shake, or they purchased a 'normal' alcohol/mixer bucket and were given the wrong ones, or their drinks were spiked by locals or non locals who were after their money/phones/bodies.

Why would any bar or any individual for that matter put deet into drinks? Because it's cheap, readily available, and isn't illegal to purchase, and has similar effects to other more desirable drugs (such as magic mushies) that come with a heftier price tag and can't always be delivered to a far away island like Phi Phi.

Illicit substances aren't always easy to come by on Phi Phi so the locals who live there have become very adept at working out how to substitute with other items or make do until the real stuff comes through. Word spreads on the new options and then the drug providers (often from within a bar) start offering it to the tourists to try.

Thank you Sirchai - I've been waiting for someone to explain that Deet has drug-like qualities and is cheap! Otherwise, it made no sense to me.

Edit - my computer is now showing that somebody else made the post that previously showed came from Sirchai... Whoever it was - thank you.

Edited September 1, 2012 by F1fanatic

[sysardman]

Thanks to all who gave links and the video.

This is very important to me because insects come from far and wide to bite me and I had no idea what so ever that there were risks with mozzy sprays.

I have been using local repellents containing 12 or 13% DEET.

The links say the risks are acceptable compared to catching mosquito-born diseases such as malaria, dengue fever, and West Nile virus.

However, it seems that the risks increase dramatically if I am also in contact with pesticides.

If hotels generally spray pesticides and I apply DEET topically, could the combination be problematic?

or does it need much larger concentrations of DEET?

There was a suggestion that these combinations caused Gulf War Syndrome - scary.

Thank goodness I do not have small children, their small bodies makes them more vulnerable.

What a crazy world we live in.....

Please @laislica don't start listening to these scare mongers, I have been using DEET products for years and regularly spray my house with mozzie killers and, I confess, am now in the middle age group. I just had a check up at my doctors and she proclaimed me fit as a 20 year old, she didn't have to amputate any additional heads or limbs that I'd grown. DEET is safe if used as directed. I go out into really mosquito infested places and by dressing sensibly and applying DEET sparingly in exposed places I seldom get bitten.

Read post 214....

Sorry, my computer/internet is playing up.... Hopefully it should be post 210.

Edit - Anyway, Lialica's second post on this page!

Ahh you mean the post (210) that is actually included as a quote in my post - I think your brain is playing up too

Edited September 1, 2012 by sysardman

[Baloo22]

Thanks to all who gave links and the video.

This is very important to me because insects come from far and wide to bite me and I had no idea what so ever that there were risks with mozzy sprays.

I have been using local repellents containing 12 or 13% DEET.

The links say the risks are acceptable compared to catching mosquito-born diseases such as malaria, dengue fever, and West Nile virus.

However, it seems that the risks increase dramatically if I am also in contact with pesticides.

If hotels generally spray pesticides and I apply DEET topically, could the combination be problematic?

or does it need much larger concentrations of DEET?

There was a suggestion that these combinations caused Gulf War Syndrome - scary.

Thank goodness I do not have small children, their small bodies makes them more vulnerable.

What a crazy world we live in.....

I would not be too worried about using insect repellents containing DEET as long as you follow the instructions. Obviously, external application only. DEET has been around for decades and been subject to multiple medical studies. Here are some excerpts from the U.S. CDC website on the use of insect repellents containing DEET.

U.S. CDC - Questions & Answers on Insect Repellent Use and Safety

http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/dvbid/westnile/qa/insect_repellent.htm

“Of the active ingredients registered with the EPA, CDC believes that two have demonstrated a higher degree of efficacy in the peer-reviewed, scientific literature (See Publications page). Products containing these active ingredients typically provide longer-lasting protection than others:

• DEET (N,N-diethyl-m-toluamide)

• Picaridin (KBR 3023) “

“DEET is an effective active ingredient found in many repellent products and in a variety of formulations. Based on a 2002 study (Fradin and Day, 2002. See Publications page.):

• A product containing 23.8% DEET provided an average of 5 hours of protection from mosquito bites.

• A product containing 20% DEET provided almost 4 hours of protection

• A product with 6.65% DEET provided almost 2 hours of protection

• Products with 4.75% DEET were both able to provide roughly 1 and a half hour of protection.

These examples represent results from only one study and are only included to provide a general idea of how such products may work. Actual protection will vary widely based on conditions such as temperature, perspiration, and water exposure.”

“Since it is the most widely available repellent, many people ask about the use of products containing DEET on children. No definitive studies exist in the scientific literature about what concentration of DEET is safe for children. No serious illness has been linked to the use of DEET in children when used according to manufacturer’s recommendations.”

[jcw]

I live on Phi Phi for half of the year and I can tell you FOR CERTAIN that it is entirely possible and plausible that the two candian girls died from drinking a lethal cocktail containing deet.

I know people who have drunk the 4 x100 and who have also drunk variations on same, by adding redbull to this mix, ground up mossie coils, crushed pain medication tablets, and even unknown types of drugs just to see what they will do (in one instance it was a cholesterol reducing drug that someone had left in a guesthouse after checking out).

Whether or not the girls were aware of the added deet will maybe never be known, but I have tasted Kratom (the natural leaves, not the boiled version or the 4 x 100) and it is extremely bitter and quite disgusting so the girls might have been told they were just drinking nam tom or the 4 x 100, which although still somewhat dangerous, rarely results in death. (I have heard some places use the mossie coils when they can't get magic mushies as it produces a similar high/effect, so perhaps they thought they were having a mushie shake.)

Whatever the case, it is not a stupid, farfetched, or fake possiblity... these things do exist and are drunk every day, especially in southern thailand, and if this indeed is what was uncovered by the autopsy results, it makes a lot of sense.

Unfortunately, many of the locals I know who use variations of the kratom mixes have done so because of their addictions to methamphetamine (ya ice and ya ba) and various other speed-like drugs. When they can't get ice or whatever, they mix up nam tom (boiled kratom leaves) which has a similar effect of enabling them to stay awake for days on end, and when they need a bigger high, they add all the other stuff to it.

The people I know personally who use such items were all victims of the tsunami, and all lost loved ones, and the majority of them turned to drugs as a coping mechanism and ended up becoming addicts.

It's a sad but very real tragedy that I see evidence of everytime I'm home on the island, and is a constant reminder of what can happen to survivors when there is no care or follow up. None of these people received any counselling, for grief or coping or loss or depression or anything. The only medical help they received was to fix the external wounds, not the mental damage. So do not judge them for becoming drug addicts when for a long time after the tsunami that was the only way they could forget what happened, and get rid of the sadness.

Having such widespread use of illicit substances rife within local communities like Phi Phi which are tourist targets, means the word quickly spreads among the tourists eager to have a good time while on holidays. Recreational drug users, even non drug users, are more likely to do a bit of experimenting while on holidays, especially young adults leaving home for the first time and so on. Yet all holiday makers (regardless of whether they choose to try drugs etc) are also more likely to become targets ... whether it be from locals requiring money with which to feed their drug habits or support their families, and from locals or non locals keen to engage in sex acts, or steal items from the drug affected recipients or whatever.

Sadly, some individuals, and even some bars on Phi Phi have chosen to exploit this need/desire by selling or making easily available, buckets containing such substances. Buckets should be banned as those sold in the crazy beach bars on Phi Phi are usually premixed behind the scenes so there's no way of customers knowing exactly what's going into them (in contrast to the buckets sold in small stalls/shops which have unopened bottles of alcohol and mixers in them). What's more, due to the large wide opening of each bucket, it's extremely easy to add unknown poisonous substances at any time without the customer realising.

Banning buckets won't solve all the problems, but it will give people like the two canadians who died a better chance of knowing what they're actually drinking. Next step is obviously police checks and regular random tests to shut down the bars supplying the customers with shit mixes (ie 4 x 100, kratom, 1-2-call, magic mushie shakes et al) because sadly, it's very easy for tourists to buy pre mixed drug cocktails, KNOWINGLY, over the counter at more than one establishment on Phi Phi. Thirdly, spread the word. Because my first two points will take time to implement, let's all do the third. Say no to buckets, and say no to anything not mixed in clear view of the public. Watch your drinks, and avoid dabbling in the local drug scene. Whether the two girls died of one of the locally available drug cocktails or not,and whether they knew what they were drinking or not, these cocktails are very real, they do exist, and they could kill anyone.

My sincere condolences to the family of the two girls who died, such a very sad, and very tragic ending to what should have been a wonderful time in their short lives.

Fantastic information. Also many of the "stalls" have ethanol mixed with flavoring essence and coloring to make cocktails. There are several "protected" ones on BK Suk late at night on the street that 100% do that. This is a story regarding Bali bu could just as easily be any Thai tourist area. http://www.news.com.au/travel/news/backpacker-blinded-by-bali-cocktail/story-e6frfq80-1226442158267

[sydneyjed]

^^

There's also the possibility that someone spiked their drinks without their knowledge to rob them or worst. There was a news article on a man who robbed truck drivers by spiking their coffee. He was trying to get them unconscious to rob, but ended up killing them.

is this the story you are refering to or another one?

A man has been arrested on suspicion of killing at least four people by serving them pesticide-laced beverages, while plotting to steal their valuables and vehicles.

THE NATION April 18, 2012 1:00 am

http://www.nationmul...r-30180161.html

I would somehow be sending /alerting this post to the relevant Canadian authorities..as this is disturbing news having read it1

[melcoe]

I live on Phi Phi for half of the year and I can tell you FOR CERTAIN that it is entirely possible and plausible that the two candian girls died from drinking a lethal cocktail containing deet.

I know people who have drunk the 4 x100 and who have also drunk variations on same, by adding redbull to this mix, ground up mossie coils, crushed pain medication tablets, and even unknown types of drugs just to see what they will do (in one instance it was a cholesterol reducing drug that someone had left in a guesthouse after checking out).

Whether or not the girls were aware of the added deet will maybe never be known, but I have tasted Kratom (the natural leaves, not the boiled version or the 4 x 100) and it is extremely bitter and quite disgusting so the girls might have been told they were just drinking nam tom or the 4 x 100, which although still somewhat dangerous, rarely results in death. (I have heard some places use the mossie coils when they can't get magic mushies as it produces a similar high/effect, so perhaps they thought they were having a mushie shake.)

Whatever the case, it is not a stupid, farfetched, or fake possiblity... these things do exist and are drunk every day, especially in southern thailand, and if this indeed is what was uncovered by the autopsy results, it makes a lot of sense.

Unfortunately, many of the locals I know who use variations of the kratom mixes have done so because of their addictions to methamphetamine (ya ice and ya ba) and various other speed-like drugs. When they can't get ice or whatever, they mix up nam tom (boiled kratom leaves) which has a similar effect of enabling them to stay awake for days on end, and when they need a bigger high, they add all the other stuff to it.

The people I know personally who use such items were all victims of the tsunami, and all lost loved ones, and the majority of them turned to drugs as a coping mechanism and ended up becoming addicts.

It's a sad but very real tragedy that I see evidence of everytime I'm home on the island, and is a constant reminder of what can happen to survivors when there is no care or follow up. None of these people received any counselling, for grief or coping or loss or depression or anything. The only medical help they received was to fix the external wounds, not the mental damage. So do not judge them for becoming drug addicts when for a long time after the tsunami that was the only way they could forget what happened, and get rid of the sadness.

Having such widespread use of illicit substances rife within local communities like Phi Phi which are tourist targets, means the word quickly spreads among the tourists eager to have a good time while on holidays. Recreational drug users, even non drug users, are more likely to do a bit of experimenting while on holidays, especially young adults leaving home for the first time and so on. Yet all holiday makers (regardless of whether they choose to try drugs etc) are also more likely to become targets ... whether it be from locals requiring money with which to feed their drug habits or support their families, and from locals or non locals keen to engage in sex acts, or steal items from the drug affected recipients or whatever.

Sadly, some individuals, and even some bars on Phi Phi have chosen to exploit this need/desire by selling or making easily available, buckets containing such substances. Buckets should be banned as those sold in the crazy beach bars on Phi Phi are usually premixed behind the scenes so there's no way of customers knowing exactly what's going into them (in contrast to the buckets sold in small stalls/shops which have unopened bottles of alcohol and mixers in them). What's more, due to the large wide opening of each bucket, it's extremely easy to add unknown poisonous substances at any time without the customer realising.

Banning buckets won't solve all the problems, but it will give people like the two canadians who died a better chance of knowing what they're actually drinking. Next step is obviously police checks and regular random tests to shut down the bars supplying the customers with shit mixes (ie 4 x 100, kratom, 1-2-call, magic mushie shakes et al) because sadly, it's very easy for tourists to buy pre mixed drug cocktails, KNOWINGLY, over the counter at more than one establishment on Phi Phi. Thirdly, spread the word. Because my first two points will take time to implement, let's all do the third. Say no to buckets, and say no to anything not mixed in clear view of the public. Watch your drinks, and avoid dabbling in the local drug scene. Whether the two girls died of one of the locally available drug cocktails or not,and whether they knew what they were drinking or not, these cocktails are very real, they do exist, and they could kill anyone.

My sincere condolences to the family of the two girls who died, such a very sad, and very tragic ending to what should have been a wonderful time in their short lives.

Fantastic information. Also many of the "stalls" have ethanol mixed with flavoring essence and coloring to make cocktails. There are several "protected" ones on BK Suk late at night on the street that 100% do that. This is a story regarding Bali bu could just as easily be any Thai tourist area. http://www.news.com....0-1226442158267

Yes Jcw, i've heard reports of ethanol being used to. Can't say for certain it happens on phi phi, but I wouldn't doubt it. Because of the Muslim population on our island (my partner is Muslim so i'm not being racist at all) among the thai locals there are more problems with the drugs that don't include alcohol as many of them abide by muslim rules of not drinking, thereby looking for their drug highs and self medication requirements elsewhere.

Incidentally, as an addition to my other information posted elsewhere, I was just reminded by my partner about one of the guys we know who specifically crushes up mossie coils (among other things) to add to his mixes and he has been close to death many times. He gets to the point where he is basically paralysed and cannot move, but then he comes good again. How he does this and repeatedly survives I don't know but perhaps this could help explain why the girls didn't leave their room? Perhaps they too were victims of this paralysis, albeit temporarily, hence why they didn't seek help. Just might help explain a few of the unanswered questions.

[Ripple]

I am not so surprised that teens are finding new ways to deal with their pain and sadness of living in this horribly corrupt world, awful atmosphere and slim chance of getting a promising career or small business.

Sad for sure, but there is a sound reason behind their reactions (in a majority of cases). The real sadness lies in the fact that individually we do little or nothing to help resolve the serious issues facing the planet today. Even starting a free blog with info about horrific corruption or other important topics is a great way to start. We are just individuals, but one small act daily adds up to a HUGE sum of inspiring and knowledge-creating work each month!

It's so sad that teens are finding new ways to get high. It is happening all over the world kids experimenting

[sysardman]

did anyone test, if some genius put DEET in the airco, supposedly to kill mozzies, if they can/will be inhaled and absorbed by the body ???

I have been told, by an ex-pat air conditioning engineer that this is the most likely cause of death in the Chiang Mai Hotel deaths story--constant application of insecticide in the rooms which does not become a health issue until the air-con is turned on--apparently.

Indeed, exactly the point I was trying to make. It's the combination of pesticides and DEET which amplify the effects. Air con units have filters and they would accumulate the pesticide and redistribute it when turned on. Should your blood contain sufficient DEET either by ingesting or liberal, regular topical application you could be in bed, possibly in a drunken stupor, and before you realise, the severe symptoms have kicked in and it's too late. The symptons of severe asphyxiation can be rapidly life-threatening.

One of the links says; Persons who use very high concentrations of DEET on their skin over a long period of time (such as military personnel or game wardens) may have more severe skin reactions that include blistering, burning, and permanent scars of the skin. Other symptoms associated with long-term use of high amounts of DEET (over 50% concentration) include insomnia and mood changes.

I have to say that I never read the ingredients on my sprays, and before this, I wouldn't have understood it anyway.

From another of the links: Psychological Effects in Adults

The two recorded cases of dermal DEET exposure resulting in psychological effects involve males 27 and 30 years old. In one case the 27-year-old applied Deep Woods Off! (20% DEET) while fishing on a humid afternoon. The man experienced an altered mental state and paresthesias, which progressed to auditory hallucinations and severe agitation. He was heavily sedated when he arrived at the hospital and required mechanical ventilation. After 24 hours, his condition had improved and he was discharged after 3 days with no recurring symptoms (Hampers et al. 1999).

I use 12% and/or 13% but in future I shall take much more care and try to use long sleeve shirts to minimise the area of exposed skin which needs to be sprayed.

Also many thanks to sysardman, on 2012-09-01 12:38:11, post 221.

My second post was about "Holiday Heads"

Thanks @laislica for the mention and glad to see someone on here with a level head on their shoulders. All I'm saying is use as directed, listen to advice and you should be OK. I can assure you Malaria and Dengue fever are a lot worse than being high for a few days. Deaths attributed to mosquito bites is one of the number 1 world killers and leaves snake bites, shark attacks and spider bites way, way in the shadows.

Edited September 1, 2012 by sysardman

[rakman]

I've seen people do some pretty strange things to get high, but drinking DEET was not one of them. That crap in banned in the US because it is so toxic. The girls probably never knew what they were drinking. So sad.

For the record:

Health Canada has banned any insect repellent containing more than 30% concentrations of DEET. Here in the US however, DEET-based repellents are simply required to carry warning labels against using these products on children under 6. You can get 100% DEET products in the US.

DEET and/or citronella, both of which have been banned as active ingredients in similar products manufactured in the European Union countries.

This ban, which became effective in 2006, cited harmful effects on both humans and animals of exposure to a number of "natural" products, including citronella oil, eucalyptus oil, and neem oil, to name a few.

[rakman]

I've seen people do some pretty strange things to get high, but drinking DEET was not one of them. That crap in banned in the US because it is so toxic. The girls probably never knew what they were drinking. So sad.

For the record:

Health Canada has banned any insect repellent containing more than 30% concentrations of DEET. Here in the US however, DEET-based repellents are simply required to carry warning labels against using these products on children under 6. You can get 100% DEET products in the US.

DEET and/or citronella, both of which have been banned as active ingredients in similar products manufactured in the European Union countries.

This ban, which became effective in 2006, cited harmful effects on both humans and animals of exposure to a number of "natural" products, including citronella oil, eucalyptus oil, and neem oil, to name a few.

[laislica]

I am not so surprised that teens are finding new ways to deal with their pain and sadness of living in this horribly corrupt world, awful atmosphere and slim chance of getting a promising career or small business.

Sad for sure, but there is a sound reason behind their reactions (in a majority of cases). The real sadness lies in the fact that individually we do little or nothing to help resolve the serious issues facing the planet today. Even starting a free blog with info about horrific corruption or other important topics is a great way to start. We are just individuals, but one small act daily adds up to a HUGE sum of inspiring and knowledge-creating work each month!

It's so sad that teens are finding new ways to get high. It is happening all over the world kids experimenting

There is a Dr called Joe Mercola and his website exposes FDA, EPA corruption and that of Big Pharma etc mercola.com but this is rather off topic.....

[laislica]

did anyone test, if some genius put DEET in the airco, supposedly to kill mozzies, if they can/will be inhaled and absorbed by the body ???

I have been told, by an ex-pat air conditioning engineer that this is the most likely cause of death in the Chiang Mai Hotel deaths story--constant application of insecticide in the rooms which does not become a health issue until the air-con is turned on--apparently.

Indeed, exactly the point I was trying to make. It's the combination of pesticides and DEET which amplify the effects. Air con units have filters and they would accumulate the pesticide and redistribute it when turned on. Should your blood contain sufficient DEET either by ingesting or liberal, regular topical application you could be in bed, possibly in a drunken stupor, and before you realise, the severe symptoms have kicked in and it's too late. The symptons of severe asphyxiation can be rapidly life-threatening.

One of the links says; Persons who use very high concentrations of DEET on their skin over a long period of time (such as military personnel or game wardens) may have more severe skin reactions that include blistering, burning, and permanent scars of the skin. Other symptoms associated with long-term use of high amounts of DEET (over 50% concentration) include insomnia and mood changes.

I have to say that I never read the ingredients on my sprays, and before this, I wouldn't have understood it anyway.

From another of the links: Psychological Effects in Adults

The two recorded cases of dermal DEET exposure resulting in psychological effects involve males 27 and 30 years old. In one case the 27-year-old applied Deep Woods Off! (20% DEET) while fishing on a humid afternoon. The man experienced an altered mental state and paresthesias, which progressed to auditory hallucinations and severe agitation. He was heavily sedated when he arrived at the hospital and required mechanical ventilation. After 24 hours, his condition had improved and he was discharged after 3 days with no recurring symptoms (Hampers et al. 1999).

I use 12% and/or 13% but in future I shall take much more care and try to use long sleeve shirts to minimise the area of exposed skin which needs to be sprayed.

Also many thanks to sysardman, on 2012-09-01 12:38:11, post 221.

My second post was about "Holiday Heads"

Thanks @laislica for the mention and glad to see someone on here with a level head on their shoulders. All I'm saying is use as directed, listen to advice and you should be OK. I can assure you Malaria and Dengue fever are a lot worse than being high for a few days. Deaths attributed to mosquito bites is one of the number 1 world killers and leaves snake bites, shark attacks and spider bites way, way in the shadows.

I tried the like button but got this massege; You have reached your quota of positive votes for the day

I am currently creating a post on Facebook to help spread the word.

Thanks again

[IAMSOBAD]

I want to know IF they had a bottle of mosquito repellent in their room and were using it as prescribed and it showed up in toxicology reports.

All avenues to blame the victims and save face will be very crowded with traffic.

If you understand my metaphor.

Sent from my GT-N7000 using Thaivisa Connect App

[rics21]

My wife says the "cocktail" is called 1-2-Call.

They call it "4 x 100" / "si kun roi".

I get called 1-2- call all the time means nothing to me that ?

Sent from my XT910 using Thaivisa Connect App

[jrincon17]

Everyone is jumping to conclusions , it is a sad story and RIP both of these young girls. Everyone is speculating on here, what if the girls met some locals and decided to do as the Romans(when in Rome) and this happened. People expermenting everywhere, we have people mixing cough syrup with codine along with grape soda called purple drank. Now add something stupid like OFF for insects, surely something bad can happen. Poor girls dont know if they knew what they were drinking or maybe they tried something a local had. Wow poor girls and the familys.

[sysardman]

I have been told, by an ex-pat air conditioning engineer that this is the most likely cause of death in the Chiang Mai Hotel deaths story--constant application of insecticide in the rooms which does not become a health issue until the air-con is turned on--apparently.

Indeed, exactly the point I was trying to make. It's the combination of pesticides and DEET which amplify the effects. Air con units have filters and they would accumulate the pesticide and redistribute it when turned on. Should your blood contain sufficient DEET either by ingesting or liberal, regular topical application you could be in bed, possibly in a drunken stupor, and before you realise, the severe symptoms have kicked in and it's too late. The symptons of severe asphyxiation can be rapidly life-threatening.

One of the links says; Persons who use very high concentrations of DEET on their skin over a long period of time (such as military personnel or game wardens) may have more severe skin reactions that include blistering, burning, and permanent scars of the skin. Other symptoms associated with long-term use of high amounts of DEET (over 50% concentration) include insomnia and mood changes.

I have to say that I never read the ingredients on my sprays, and before this, I wouldn't have understood it anyway.

From another of the links: Psychological Effects in Adults

The two recorded cases of dermal DEET exposure resulting in psychological effects involve males 27 and 30 years old. In one case the 27-year-old applied Deep Woods Off! (20% DEET) while fishing on a humid afternoon. The man experienced an altered mental state and paresthesias, which progressed to auditory hallucinations and severe agitation. He was heavily sedated when he arrived at the hospital and required mechanical ventilation. After 24 hours, his condition had improved and he was discharged after 3 days with no recurring symptoms (Hampers et al. 1999).

I use 12% and/or 13% but in future I shall take much more care and try to use long sleeve shirts to minimise the area of exposed skin which needs to be sprayed.

Also many thanks to sysardman, on 2012-09-01 12:38:11, post 221.

My second post was about "Holiday Heads"

Thanks @laislica for the mention and glad to see someone on here with a level head on their shoulders. All I'm saying is use as directed, listen to advice and you should be OK. I can assure you Malaria and Dengue fever are a lot worse than being high for a few days. Deaths attributed to mosquito bites is one of the number 1 world killers and leaves snake bites, shark attacks and spider bites way, way in the shadows.

I tried the like button but got this massege; You have reached your quota of positive votes for the day

I am currently creating a post on Facebook to help spread the word.

Thanks again

Now the dust seems to have settled here can I just use a little analogy - if a knife wielding maniac was coming at you, you would start thinking a full suit of armour would be a pretty neat idea and you probably won't complain that it's heavy and chafes a bit and restricts your movement. Now as small as a mosquito is (and most time you don't see the one that bites you) it could potentially be a killer so you would also think protection would be a neat idea. Anyway I've tried Citronella and it didn't last as long as DEET (a bit like the repo man coming for the suit of armour half way through the knife attack) so that is why I prefer DEET. At the end of the day it's your choice so use what you want.

[jrincon17]

While in the Philippines in June nearly got in a fight with someidiots because I wouldn't drink with them. I told the guy sorry I do not drink with people I do not know or drink drinks from bottles that I have no clue where it came from. To get the guy to shut up I finally excepted the drink and dunmped it, did he get mad, you thru my drink away, I said no I thru my drink away as you gave it to me now **** off. Then latter his buddy got into the act I finally told him to **** off as well the wait staff knew me and calmed these idiots down.

You have to be carefull who you except drinks from especially if you are a good looking girl, you do not have a clue whats in the drink. Best wishes to the family of the 2 girls very sad.

Never knew anyone get mad in the Phils or in Thai if you said no politely that would get mad.