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No God, Not Even Allah

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'Others' still doesn't allow for those who want to choose 'none'.

I think it does, Endure. It simply means (in this case) those who do not fit into the named categories.

A funny thing about atheists is that they seem to delight in attacking religion. Surely if they have no belief, they should not be concerned with the beliefs of others? If you fight against something, you have to be fighting for something else, don't you?

+1 vigorously.

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The only people I see doing the attacking here are the religious zealots. A number of threads have been started over the years by these people about atheists in attempts to bait.

I still remember one of the most pious members here stating on one of these threads a year or so, that he doesn't HATE anyone except atheists.

Sick little puppy.

The only people I see doing the attacking here are the religious zealots. A number of threads have been started over the years by these people about atheists in attempts to bait.

I still remember one of the most pious members here stating on one of these threads a year or so, that he doesn't HATE anyone except atheists.

Sick little puppy.

I think you must be reading a different forum, Old Croc. I have seen several attacks by atheists on religion. It's true, they are mostly just mindless sneers, but a few have been fairly specific.

I try not to hate anyone. I can't say I'm all that successful, though! Atheists I feel sorry for, which is almost worse!

'Others' still doesn't allow for those who want to choose 'none'.

I think it does, Endure. It simply means (in this case) those who do not fit into the named categories.

A funny thing about atheists is that they seem to delight in attacking religion. Surely if they have no belief, they should not be concerned with the beliefs of others? If you fight against something, you have to be fighting for something else, don't you?

Our belief is human reason. Religion is the OPPOSITE of human reason.

Sorry about the font size in my previous post. I don't know why but it does it sometimes and is impossible to fix it seems.

You can "choose" it and click on either size font 14 or 18. One is a little too big and one is a little too big, but at least it is readable. However, sometimes a mod will delete your post for not using the default font size.

I know mate, there is something wrong with my pc I think as it sometimes happens and cannot be fixed even I go back and edit. Happens on some other forums I post on too.

To further the discussion, I came across a quote from George Carlin.

“Religion has convinced people that there’s an invisible man. living in the sky, who watches everything you do every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a list of ten specific things he doesn’t want you to do. And if you do any of these things, he will send you to a special place, of burning and fire and smoke and torture and anguish for you to live forever, and suffer and burn and scream until the end of time. But he loves you. He loves you and he needs money.”

-

The only people I see doing the attacking here are the religious zealots. A number of threads have been started over the years by these people about atheists in attempts to bait.

I still remember one of the most pious members here stating on one of these threads a year or so, that he doesn't HATE anyone except atheists.

Sick little puppy.

\

I am far from a religious zealot. I don't impose my personal beliefs on this forum and don't particularly like it when others try to impose their own personal beliefs.

Nobody really cares what you or others believe concerning religion.

'Others' still doesn't allow for those who want to choose 'none'.

I think it does, Endure. It simply means (in this case) those who do not fit into the named categories.

A funny thing about atheists is that they seem to delight in attacking religion. Surely if they have no belief, they should not be concerned with the beliefs of others? If you fight against something, you have to be fighting for something else, don't you?

Our belief is human reason. Religion is the OPPOSITE of human reason.

"Different from", JT, not "opposite to". Reason is not subject to belief; you only believe things which you cannot prove.

The only people I see doing the attacking here are the religious zealots. A number of threads have been started over the years by these people about atheists in attempts to bait.

I still remember one of the most pious members here stating on one of these threads a year or so, that he doesn't HATE anyone except atheists.

Sick little puppy.

\

I am far from a religious zealot. I don't impose my personal beliefs on this forum and don't particularly like it when others try to impose their own personal beliefs.

Nobody really cares what you or others believe concerning religion.

I don't think I "impose" them, do I? I try not to, but I can't not be what I am, and my faith is part of me, so there are times when it comes to the surface! But I hope you can't find any examples where I try to impose my beliefs on others, or denigrate the beliefs of others. This would be counter-productive in a forum like this.

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'Others' still doesn't allow for those who want to choose 'none'.

I think it does, Endure. It simply means (in this case) those who do not fit into the named categories.

A funny thing about atheists is that they seem to delight in attacking religion. Surely if they have no belief, they should not be concerned with the beliefs of others? If you fight against something, you have to be fighting for something else, don't you?

If I'm asked the question "What religion are you"? and the choices are CofE/RC/Muslim/other it means that I'm being asked to declare that I have some sort of religion. There is no option in there for me to say I don't have a religion.

A little earlier in this thread you said that you would feel hurt if you were forced to declare yourself to be of a religion that you aren't yet you seem to find it acceptable that others 'tick the box' just to fit in.

A little earlier in this thread you said that you would feel hurt if you were forced to declare yourself to be of a religion that you aren't yet you seem to find it acceptable that others 'tick the box' just to fit in.

post-145163-0-80295700-1355404586_thumb.

I have no belief in any religion, but that does not mean I'm interested in challenging the rights of anyone to practice whatever religion they choose - as long as it does not interfere with the way I choose to live. I have just read that an atheist in Egypt got 3 years jail for criticizing Islam and Christianity. Now I'd be interested to know how in criticizing any belief system does he stop anyone else from believing in it.

P.S Coming to think of it my new signature is rather pertinent to this thread.

I have no belief in any religion, but that does not mean I'm interested in challenging the rights of anyone to practice whatever religion they choose - as long as it does not interfere with the way I choose to live.

Very much on topic.

I feel the same... believe what you like, even that you are a chicken sandwich for all business it is of mine. But.... a huge BUT... One would think that those of a religious bent would be happy but they are not, they won't be happy until you believe it too.

I have no belief in any religion, but that does not mean I'm interested in challenging the rights of anyone to practice whatever religion they choose - as long as it does not interfere with the way I choose to live.

Very much on topic.

I feel the same... believe what you like, even that you are a chicken sandwich for all business it is of mine. But.... a huge BUT... One would think that those of a religious bent would be happy but they are not, they won't be happy until you believe it too.

Where's your evidence for the "most"? I've had a few Jehovah's Witnesses, and Mormons, and Scientologists, push their own brand of faith on me, but I've never been approached by a Muslim or a Jew or a pagan or shamanist or a Taoist. The buddhist approaches are generally pretty low key. I would reckon that of all the people with a strong degree of faith I've met, those missionaries were a small percentage, and of course they are far more visible than their less proselytic brethren.

I've never seen anyone here ridiculing atheism, or encouraging anyone to adopt a given faith or belief, while I have seen many atheists being distinctly uncharitable to their pious fellows.

So where's your evidence for the "most"?

?

SC

I have no belief in any religion, but that does not mean I'm interested in challenging the rights of anyone to practice whatever religion they choose - as long as it does not interfere with the way I choose to live.

Very much on topic.

I feel the same... believe what you like, even that you are a chicken sandwich for all business it is of mine. But.... a huge BUT... One would think that those of a religious bent would be happy but they are not, they won't be happy until you believe it too.

Where's your evidence for the "most"? I've had a few Jehovah's Witnesses, and Mormons, and Scientologists, push their own brand of faith on me, but I've never been approached by a Muslim or a Jew or a pagan or shamanist or a Taoist. The buddhist approaches are generally pretty low key. I would reckon that of all the people with a strong degree of faith I've met, those missionaries were a small percentage, and of course they are far more visible than their less proselytic brethren.

I've never seen anyone here ridiculing atheism, or encouraging anyone to adopt a given faith or belief, while I have seen many atheists being distinctly uncharitable to their pious fellows.

So where's your evidence for the "most"?

?

SC

Have I used the word 'most' in your quoted text?

I have no belief in any religion, but that does not mean I'm interested in challenging the rights of anyone to practice whatever religion they choose - as long as it does not interfere with the way I choose to live.

Very much on topic.

I feel the same... believe what you like, even that you are a chicken sandwich for all business it is of mine. But.... a huge BUT... One would think that those of a religious bent would be happy but they are not, they won't be happy until you believe it too.

Where's your evidence for the "most"? I've had a few Jehovah's Witnesses, and Mormons, and Scientologists, push their own brand of faith on me, but I've never been approached by a Muslim or a Jew or a pagan or shamanist or a Taoist. The buddhist approaches are generally pretty low key. I would reckon that of all the people with a strong degree of faith I've met, those missionaries were a small percentage, and of course they are far more visible than their less proselytic brethren.

I've never seen anyone here ridiculing atheism, or encouraging anyone to adopt a given faith or belief, while I have seen many atheists being distinctly uncharitable to their pious fellows.

So where's your evidence for the "most"?

?

SC

Have I used the word 'most' in your quoted text?

My apologies; you were not so qualified or limited. You said "those of a religious bent... won't be happy until you believe it too"

Did you mean all those of a religious bent? Most? Some? A few? Or did you mean the newsworthy religious zealots that make it into the tabloid newspapers?

SC

My apologies;

Accepted.

You said "those of a religious bent... won't be happy until you believe it too" Did you mean all those of a religious bent? Most? Some? A few?

I mean unequivocally and absolutely 'those of a religious bent'

I have read enough of you posts to know that you are no fool SC. I wonder if you could indulge me in so far as I could ask you a question.

My apologies;

Accepted.

You said "those of a religious bent... won't be happy until you believe it too" Did you mean all those of a religious bent? Most? Some? A few?

I mean unequivocally and absolutely 'those of a religious bent'

I can tell you that many (in fact, I think all, other than those I have met in the course of their proselytic activities) of those that I have met who are of a religious bent do not raise the issue of my beliefs, and the only people I have met who have tried to persuade me to adopt one faith or another have been actively engaged in proselytic activities.

On this forum, issues of faith often crop up, and I have never heard anyone actively promoting any particular faith, beyond the possible piety of people encouraging participation in the activities of alcoholics anonymous. On the other hand, you can review this thread critically to identify posters ridiculing or denigrating the faith of others.

I imagine it's a bit like whistling in the dark. You've formed a rational decision on your beliefs (an opinion, since it is a matter of faith rather than logical proof), but you're not 100% sure, and so you need to keep reinforcing your belief. "There is no God...no hell below us...I'll not rot in hell's damnation for this....". Speculation on my part, but if that was the way that it was, how would things look different?

SC

I have read enough of you posts to know that you are no fool SC. I wonder if you could indulge me in so far as I could ask you a question.

It requires little indulgence of me to ask a question. Were I not to answer it, I doubt anyone would find you at fault.

I have read enough of you posts to know that you are no fool SC. I wonder if you could indulge me in so far as I could ask you a question.

It requires little indulgence of me to ask a question. Were I not to answer it, I doubt anyone would find you at fault.

I thank you

What mechanisms are available/ unavailable in order for religious belief to continue to flourish?

I have read enough of you posts to know that you are no fool SC. I wonder if you could indulge me in so far as I could ask you a question.

It requires little indulgence of me to ask a question. Were I not to answer it, I doubt anyone would find you at fault.

I thank you

What mechanisms are available/ unavailable in order for religious belief to continue to flourish?

That's a very fair point. I didn't understand your question at first, but on a bit of reflection, the crux of the question seems to be this:

How would my (meaning your) denigration impact on the freedom of belief of others?

But the point of religious freedom is not whether one is free to believe or not believe. That is a matter of entirely personal faith. Some people believe that there is no god. Some people believe that there is a god, some people ascribe different characteristics to that god. But no amount of oppression will convince you that your beliefs are false.

The objective of religious intolerence is not conversion, but extermination, Either literally through ethnic cleansing, or through suppression of the practices of religion, which reinforce belief within the believrs - preventing beliefs from being passed from one generation to the next.

In my opinion, people should be allowed to practice their religion. I would prefer a slightly quieter call to prayers, perhaps sent by SMS, but if I need to, I sleep through it. If people preach hatred and violence, then their religion seems irrelevant to me; there are plenty of violent loonies of most faiths, and of no faith.

When any of us encourage prejudice, however limited, well-meaning and constructive our opinion, we lend a little to the zealots who would take opinion and preference to the level of bigotry and intolerance

SC

Some people believe that there is no god.

THIS is the crux of the argument and is very much on topic. It is a lack of belief and is in no way whatsoever the same thing, it's a rejection of a claim. If you were to say you has a 500m banana I would reject that claim but it says nothing else other than that.

We could get into the musing of Descartes & Kant but that would be outside the topic.

And to be honest your post did not answer my question. It was a good post however.

Some people believe that there is no god.

THIS is the crux of the argument and is very much on topic. It is a lack of belief and is in no way whatsoever the same thing, it's a rejection of a claim. If you were to say you has a 500m banana I would reject that claim but it says nothing else other than that.

We could get into the musing of Descartes & Kant but that would be outside the topic.

Belief that there is no god is a belief same as any other. I think it would be far harder to prove than the converse.

Some people believe that there is no god.

THIS is the crux of the argument and is very much on topic. It is a lack of belief and is in no way whatsoever the same thing, it's a rejection of a claim. If you were to say you has a 500m banana I would reject that claim but it says nothing else other than that.

We could get into the musing of Descartes & Kant but that would be outside the topic.

Belief that there is no god is a belief same as any other. I think it would be far harder to prove than the converse.

It's the rejection of a claim SC.

Take a coin and flip it. It's covered by your other hand but you claim it's heads. I reject your claim that you know that it is heads rather than tails. I do not say it IS tails, I reject your claim.

And to be honest your post did not answer my question. It was a good post however.

As I said, I didn't understand the question, so I interpreted it as best I could into one that I understood and that I could answer.

In terms of specific mechanisms, I think that 'education' is an important part in maintaining religion; the right to teach one's offspring and, perhaps, others, the beliefs of your culture (faith).

I personally am a little unhappy that my children are not being adequately taught, in a 3rd person context, the anecdotes that underly our culture. Whether one believes in God, whether one believes he wears white robes and a flowing white beard, whomsoever you believe rolled aside the stone, the teachings therein form the basis for our culture (including our tolerance of other religions and of atheism) and therefore are important (in my opinion).

We could work on an entirely humanist set of teachings, but that is outwith my experience

SC

Some people believe that there is no god.

THIS is the crux of the argument and is very much on topic. It is a lack of belief and is in no way whatsoever the same thing, it's a rejection of a claim. If you were to say you has a 500m banana I would reject that claim but it says nothing else other than that.

We could get into the musing of Descartes & Kant but that would be outside the topic.

Belief that there is no god is a belief same as any other. I think it would be far harder to prove than the converse.

It's the rejection of a claim SC.

Take a coin and flip it. It's covered by your other hand but you claim it's heads. I reject your claim that you know that it is heads rather than tails. I do not say it IS tails, I reject your claim.

That's agnosticism. threre may be a god, there may not be a god. You can;t prove there is, I can't prove there is not.

It's more like saying "I believe there is a pound coin down the back of the sofa. I beieve it;s heads up; my muslim brothers believe it is heads down. We.ve searched and we.ve searched for proof, and we've found aids infected needles and buttons and ten shilling bits, but we still can't prove that there is no pound coin there, nor which way up it is.

SC

In terms of specific mechanisms, I think that 'education' is an important part in maintaining religion; the right to teach one's offspring and, perhaps, others, the beliefs of your culture (faith).

Culture has nothing to do with faith in this context.

However 'faith' is a personal thing and cannot be taught, it can only be inculcated.

This is the only mechanism religious belief has to propagate, if child inculcation was stopped religious/ superstitious belief will die out quick time.

That's agnosticism. threre may be a god, there may not be a god. You can;t prove there is, I can't prove there is not.

SC

Very true hence agnostic atheist.

I don't see the question as being in any way valid so condier myself Ignostic.

  1. The view that a coherent definition of God must be presented before the question of the existence of God can be meaningfully discussed. Furthermore, if that definition is unfalsifiable, the ignostic takes the theological noncognitivist position that the question of the existence of God (per that definition) is meaningless. In this case, the concept of God is not considered meaningless; the term "God" is considered meaningless.

  1. The second view is synonymous with theological noncognitivism, and skips the step of first asking "What is meant by 'God'?" before proclaiming the original question "Does God exist?" as meaningless.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignosticism

In terms of specific mechanisms, I think that 'education' is an important part in maintaining religion; the right to teach one's offspring and, perhaps, others, the beliefs of your culture (faith).

Culture has nothing to do with faith in this context.

However 'faith' is a personal thing and cannot be taught, it can only be inculcated.

This is the only mechanism religious belief has to propagate, if child inculcation was stopped religious/ superstitious belief will die out quick time.

I'd rather not condemn my descendents to eternal damnation through a lack of certainty; I'd rather offer them what I know, and let them make their own decisions. And in the absence of anything remotely comparable,I have to say that my christian upbringing gives me a set of morals with which I feel much more comfortable than any alternative I have been offered (to be fair, I don;t think I have been offered a coherent set of alternatives)

Perhaps you may feel that morals are not necessary, but in my opinion, it is unreasonable to expect every individual to develop their own moral code; their course towards realising their mistakes would be likely to inconvenience me and my fellow members of society, as well as themselves. So I rely on the liberal moral code that was taught to me. And I hope that I have promulgated that to my children, though they have not had the theological institutional support that my parents had

SC

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