For Those That Have Children ....

[meme]

Asked my husband what he would do if we had kids and strangers started taking our kid out of their stroller. He said he would tell them to f*** off. I asked him shouldn't you try a polite way of saying it first and he asked me "why be polite to people like that? They don't have any manners anyway".

So, there you go, a Thai male perspective. Have you tried asking your husband what he really thinks of this?

I just asked my bf the same question. He said he is OK if people from around his home do it. But he is not OK if they are strangers. He says Thai people are not as trusting anymore when it comes ot strangers and kids, cause there are more cases of kids getting stolen. He is however very strong on his point that its OK if they are people he knows or from around his area ( he lives in a village). Personally from what I have seen from his village and family, I love how they all raise the kids together. However if we had kids and people were touching and picking them up in bkk or a busy hectic setting like that I would not be pleased.

[sylvafern]

He's more accepting of it than I am ... but he also doesn't like it when people touch him, etc but he usually deals with it better than me ... but I guess it's easier for him to explain in Thai why he doesn't like it happening.

[solo siam]

Sounds like typical western mollycoddling to me.

Surely its a good thing for any child/person to get as much varied social contact as possible at an early age.

Also keeping children completely isolated from germs etc... isnt particularly useful IMO, they may end up with a particularly week immune system from lack of exposure to well anything. Most people I knew back at school who had over-protective parents/upbringing where the weakest kids who were forever ill. You can be safe without insisting that people dont ever touch or pick up your baby.

If its not germs your worried about, I'm not sure where you think the danger is, I haven't heard of a case of a gaggle of store assistants, waitresses etc... stealing farang babies.

[Jasmine]

If its not germs your worried about, I'm not sure where you think the danger is, I haven't heard of a case of a gaggle of store assistants, waitresses etc... stealing farang babies.

I dunno Ben there was a case when a luk kreung was taken when I lived in BKK but this is a few years back now. I think she was a young girl who was a friend of the families maid. She took the child back to her apartment and it seems she just wanted to look after her cos she found the baby so cute. The baby was returned unharmed.

But can you imagine how the parents suffered for those 2 days?

I do think the op has a point. When it comes to my kids I'd much rather be safe than sorry.

[Griffin]

I have had to explain this to my Thai girlfriend and her pals many times. Why touching western children is 'seen' as wrong. They fail to see how anybody would baulk at them showing kids affection.

Our view that demands the arrest of anyone who speaks to a child that is not their own may be in need of a review.

I don't doubt that it is stressful for mothers, but is a monster behind every gate?

[Jasmine]

I don't doubt that it is stressful for mothers, but is a monster behind every gate?

I fully fess up to being a paranoid parent!! Don't get me wrong I love the way Thai's are such a child friendly culture. It definitely pays off too. I've taught in BKK and the UK and give me a class of Thai kids any day. The worst thing anyone ever did was turn up 10 mins late for class. In the UK being told to f*** off on a daily basis and the threat of physical violence are par for the course.

What bothered me most about the op was the child being taken out of the pram when the parents back was turned. I do think that's going too far and I'm not 100% sure (I may be wrong) that every Thai mother would be happy with that.

[sbk]

Precisely Jasmine, the OP is not talking about mollycoddling her children or about not allowing strangers to be interested in her child. She is talking about complete strangers in a shopping center taking her child out of the stroller not only without her permission but without her knowledge.

Seems to me that some of the more critical of the posters have not had this experience so perhaps should withhold judgement until such time as something like this occurs to them.

[solo siam]

Actually the OP objected to a lot of things including people holding or taking photos etc..

I can see how it would be worrying to turn around and your baby is gone, however thats not very common whilst holding, photos, looking, kissing etc... is.

I would much rather have my child grow up here, with all the above than in the UK where this doesnt happen but actually my child would be in more danger.

[The Dan Sai Kid]

I don't think the touching is restricted to just kids. When I go to my wife's village I almost always get some old lady feeling the hair on my arms.

The culture in the UK is such that cameras are now banned at school events. I think that when a country gets round to doing stuff like that then it's pretty sad.

If you want to see the current trend for UK youth then do a goodle search for "happy-slapping".

Edited February 26, 2006 by Grant

[sbk]

Yes, the op did complain about other things as well but I'd have to say, that after watching the OTT attention my nephew got when he came to visit, I would want to put some restrictions on others behaviors as well. There has to come a time when enough is enough.

One time we were at Erawan waterfalls and a small group of female students wanted their picture taken with my nephew. My sister said, "OK, why not?" until the next group came and wanted pics and then the next group came. At one point he was surrounded by something like 50 female students all giggling and touching. He was terrified.

[solo siam]

Which is kind of my point, a child brought up in the west ends up 'terrified' by students giggling and laughing.

You cant pick and choose which bits of a culture should apply to you, if you think your child is generally safer off in the west and thats the most important thing to you then thats where you should be.

I'm sure if the lady in your example would have said no, nothing would have happened, so its a lesson learned - Thais like to share the joy of children.

[Gulliver_in_LOS]

Our six months old baby boy also gets the same attention everywhere we go I remember when we took him back to my wife's village; everyday people were queuing up just to see him Personally I don't see anything wrong with that. Of course, nobody was allowed to carry or kiss him without his mother's permission. At shopping malls, people also smile at him or try to touch his hands, but as far as I remember, nobody has ever tried to lift him out of his stroller. That surely would have crossed the line I remember at one time, a whole group of schoolgirls surrounded our baby's stroller smiling and touching him, and he seemed very much enjoying it

[sbk]

Which is kind of my point, a child brought up in the west ends up 'terrified' by students giggling and laughing.

You cant pick and choose which bits of a culture should apply to you, if you think your child is generally safer off in the west and thats the most important thing to you then thats where you should be.

I'm sure if the lady in your example would have said no, nothing would have happened, so its a lesson learned - Thais like to share the joy of children.

Ah, but then it would fall back on the "molly coddling" "can't enjoy Thai culture" accusations again wouldn't it? She did say no, finally. 50 full grown female students all surrounding one 4 year old would terrify any kid and would NEVER happen to a 100% Thai kid.

[skylar]

I would much rather have my child grow up here, with all the above than in the UK where this doesnt happen but actually my child would be in more danger.

It's been that way in the UK since the early 80s. I remember my mother always holding my hand tightly and telling me never to accept anything from strangers, not to talk to them, not to play too close to the front school fence or in the front garden and made me memorise our phone number at the age of 4 onwards. I still remember it now! So many children have been snatched in the UK it makes the papers on at least a weekly basis.

[Boo]

We have 2 thai neices living with the mother in law in Issan, the oldest one (12) isn't allowed to go more than a few metres from the house, they aren't allowed to talk to strangers & even family friends don't grab or touch the youngest one (5), who in thai view is very cute, mongolian looking with very very white skin. Security is a massive issue in their house & the kids are told never to talk to strangers & they can only go to the shop at the end of the road togteher. Pretty much how I was raised in London (except I had more freedom)

The mother in law is a a 68y/o thai women, maybe she should leave the country she has never left & the culture she has helped create & move to another country as she is practicing western ideas about childrearing?? BUT how is that possible, she has never been overseas & until 2 years ago, had never met a westerner??? How did she manage to learn these western parenting skills 40 years ago so she would raise her 2 sons & a daughter???

Being careful & putting your childs saftey & security above all others feelings is most mothers first priority, reagrdless of where they were raised or lived.

IF you are happy for stranges to grab, snatch or man handle your baby then that is your business as a parent, but if your not happy with that then you have every right to say so & act on it.

[Jasmine]

I would much rather have my child grow up here, with all the above than in the UK where this doesnt happen but actually my child would be in more danger.

I agree that threat of violence is more obvious in the UK but I can think of pros and cons for either place. One of our kids is disabled and sadly there's is no contest about which country is a better place for us to raise him re: services, his education, financial help etc

That's not to say I would definitely have chosen the UK as a place to bring up kids if things had been different. Like I said everywhere has good and bad.

Interestingly in the light of the recent murder on Samui one of the daytime phone in programmes in the UK ran a phone in on an 'is it safe to let our children go backpacking in Thailand' theme. Of course most people phoning in were saying that things need to be put in perspective but some were saying it had put them off.

There was also a piece in the news that the FO had played down the fact that 9 Brits had been murdered in Thailand in the last 18 months. I know murder of tourists is off topic but I think it's easy to fall into the trap of thinking Thailand is a safer place because of the lack of violent attacks such as muggings. Like anywhere in the world it has it's fair share of unpleasant going ons.

[sylvafern]

I would much rather have my child grow up here, with all the above than in the UK where this doesnt happen but actually my child would be in more danger.

I agree that threat of violence is more obvious in the UK but I can think of pros and cons for either place. One of our kids is disabled and sadly there's is no contest about which country is a better place for us to raise him re: services, his education, financial help etc

That's not to say I would definitely have chosen the UK as a place to bring up kids if things had been different. Like I said everywhere has good and bad.

Interestingly in the light of the recent murder on Samui one of the daytime phone in programmes in the UK ran a phone in on an 'is it safe to let our children go backpacking in Thailand' theme. Of course most people phoning in were saying that things need to be put in perspective but some were saying it had put them off.

There was also a piece in the news that the FO had played down the fact that 9 Brits had been murdered in Thailand in the last 18 months. I know murder of tourists is off topic but I think it's easy to fall into the trap of thinking Thailand is a safer place because of the lack of violent attacks such as muggings. Like anywhere in the world it has it's fair share of unpleasant going ons.

That's exactly true .... often living in Thailand does seem like a safer place to live and people let their guards down ... since living in Thailand I've been broken into, someone tried to mug me and for the first few Songkrans was gropped by drunken idiots in public places .... but in saying that in some cases I put myself in position that I never would have done had I been back home in NZ (e.g. I was walking home from the skytrain by myself at midnight when the attempted mugging took place - never would have walked alone at that time of night in NZ).

I think it's important to remember all those things our parents and teachers taught us as kids, and I know it is the fact that 'stranger danger' was drummed into me from an early age that makes me wary of the attention my son gets from strangers here. Unfortunately the 'give an inch, take a mile' attitude is in place here .... I had the same experience that SBK had, but at Aytthaya - a polite Thai Uni student asked to take a photo of my son (this was my first experience) so I said yes .... next thing you know he was swarmed by students all with their massive SLR cameras inches from him face!

[Jasmine]

but in saying that in some cases I put myself in position that I never would have done had I been back home in NZ (e.g. I was walking home from the skytrain by myself at midnight when the attempted mugging took place - never would have walked alone at that time of night in NZ).

I agree Sylva, with hindsight I put myself in situations I wouldn't back home. I must have had a guardian angel, the worst thing I encountered was a persistant flasher who would lay in wait down a quiet soi my friend and I had to walk down to get to our apartment from the school we worked at.

And we knew something about the culture ie when we were going to start a days work at school at 7.00am in our black cocktail dresses we were at least wearing tights underneath ( sorry, see the appropriate dressing thread ) !!!

Edited February 26, 2006 by Jasmine

[xty]

How do others cope with it? Does it drive you crazy or do you just accept it as part of the culture here?

Same for my 22 months daughter (100% Asian), ever since she was 4 months old, and mostly when we're living in Middle East. For us the parents, it's a pride. Apparently they say that my daughter looks like a baby doll (black round eyes, round chicks, light skin). As long as it doesn't scare her, all should be fine. Once or twice it happened when other older babies/toddlers just grabbed or pinched her. I just took her away from them. You can't yell to them not to disturb, can you?

[The Dan Sai Kid]

How do others cope with it? Does it drive you crazy or do you just accept it as part of the culture here?

Same for my 22 months daughter (100% Asian), ever since she was 4 months old, and mostly when we're living in Middle East. For us the parents, it's a pride. Apparently they say that my daughter looks like a baby doll (black round eyes, round chicks, light skin). As long as it doesn't scare her, all should be fine. Once or twice it happened when other older babies/toddlers just grabbed or pinched her. I just took her away from them. You can't yell to them not to disturb, can you?

You know, I sort of thought that people should accept the cultural differences and benefits of living here. But, today I took my friends kid to the shop and someone in the shop just grabbed him and lifted him up - no asking or anything, I think there is a point where you feel comfortable, and after that there is no question of respecting culture - just doing what feels right as a parent

[bggg]

My daughters were 18 months and 4 when we arrived. Both are toe head blondes (very very light blonde) it was (and still is to a point) horrible! They were picked up, stroked, grabbed, pinched, constantly. Once a motorcycle taxi driver picked the little one up and walked off with her, she started screaming and he laughed and pretended he was taking her away on his motorcycle.

How about how the kids feel. My children got to the point where they cringed when thais came near. Refused to let people take their pictures (this was an overwhelming request when on holidays). They would ask me why Thai people thought it was okay to stroke their hair in elevators, pinch their arms etc. It really turned them off from Thais. They were not old enough to have had any stranger danger talk before arriving here. They said they thought it was just rude! It is not just coochy cooing!

My So african friend (who also had a toe head blonde daughter) said it was worse in vietnam, her daughter started kicking people and my friend said she didn't stop her. Nothing else she had tried would get them to stop!

I tried every manner of thing to say I could come up with nothing worked. I absolutely do not agree that you must accept it as their culture.

[solo siam]

All these people who have suffered these terrifying experiences obviously know now that they should probably holiday somewhere else, If you live here I dont understand why you would want to live in a place where you see danger everywhere and dont appreciate the love that Thai's have for children.

[Swelters]

Here's the good news. My fahlang kids 2 and 3 in Korat, 1963-65, every morning off to the market with the cook, God knows what they are eating and who's touching them, but they certainly seem to enjoy themselves.

Fast forward to 1970 in California, their pediatrican: "These kids are remarkable, they never have any normal illnesses." No bad effects visible 35 years later, either.

[sbk]

All these people who have suffered these terrifying experiences obviously know now that they should probably holiday somewhere else, If you live here I dont understand why you would want to live in a place where you see danger everywhere and dont appreciate the love that Thai's have for children.

This is a very tiresome argument that I find utterly pointless. Many of us have chosen to make Thailand our home for various reasons. Please drop the continuously banal "if you dont' like it leave" argument as it just does not have any relevance.

Not everything that Thai people do is right, not everything they do is wrong. Same goes with those of us from other places that have chosen to make this our home.

And need I point out again, that a Thai child would generally not be exposed to this kind of situation so it doesn't really make it a part of "Thai culture".

[solo siam]

I see Thai kids experience the same thing every single day,theres a young Thai lady who lives up the road from me who literally stops at almost every house with people asking after, speaking to and playing with her baby. I see it everyday, whether or not the child is Thai or otherwise.

Thais also often borrow close relatives kids for the day, they just love being around babies and young children.

The children are in much LESS danger because everyone is taking notice of them, where they are, what they are doing etc... The dangers in the west come from kids being ignored by the general public.

I just dont believe in being overly overprotective.

[Boo]

Your example is completly different to the examples given by the women here. This lady is a known neighbour not a complete stranger in the street. Not even remotely the same thing.

[sylvafern]

I have never seen a Thai child getting attention the way a farang child gets when out in public. Whenever we take kids on school trips it is ONLY the farang kids or very pale half-Thai children that get the attention (i.e. - the grabs, pinches, hugs). Not that anything bad has ever happened on any of these trips, but it is proof that Thai kids do not get the same attention as farang kids.

[seraph]

I have a 16 month old son who's half-Thai (but very light-skinned) who is constantly grabbed, touched, kissed, pointed at, talked about, etc, etc when we're out in public, e.g. shopping. I don't mind if it's just a wave, a game of peek-a-boo, or a comment on how cute he is .... but when he's grabbed, touched, taken out of his push-chair when my back is turned, or is being mobbed by people taking photos of him on their phones it really stresses me out, especially when I've already specifically told someone not to do it (shop assistants are the worst!). Sometimes, in my limited Thai, I attempt to explain the concept of stranger danger, but other times I literally push the person away or keep walking at the same pace and run them over with the push chair (and then feel bad cos they weren't to know they were the 20th person that day to maul him). How do others cope with it? Does it drive you crazy or do you just accept it as part of the culture here?

Hi sylvafern,

I am a Thai mother of two 100% Thai children. Let me assure you that picking up a child out of the pushchair without the parent's permission, especially if the child is securely buckled up, is NOT acceptable and by no means part of the culture.

If this ever happens to you again, tell the person firmly that she should not do this as it worries the mother and upsets the child and let's hope she won't do it to the next cute kid she sees. You don't have to feel guilty in case like this. Think of it this way, if this same person walked in smiling, drank your coffee or stroked your bum, you probably wouldn't think twice about giving her a nasty look or telling her off. This is your child's welfare and safety. You are in charge.

For other situations, maybe it is a good idea to follow your child's reaction. If he seems ok, just grin and bear it. If he is annoyed or afraid, it'll show and the strangers should naturally back off. You might as well warn them that he bites/kicks/slaps or just give the 'excuse us' smile and walk away.

If I were you, I would try to create a private 'no entry' space. For example, park the pushchair sideways right between yourself and the cashier counter/bookshelves/clothes rack/lift wall. If you block the way like that, you can see your son the whole time and vice versa. This should limit the chance of him being touched or lifted off.

Also try to relax. Feel blessed that your child is welcome and adored in this society. It is much better than him being shooed away or given an annoyed or a disgusted look.

[sylvafern]

Thanks Seraph ... good to get another point of view!

[Master Chief]

I have kids here as well and I used to get quite upset with all the people touching my kids, when I removed the kids gold peices, the touching by strangers reduced to half emmidiatly. Now there are only those left whom genuily like our kids or those who think they are so cute they want to make them cry. The last ones are the most presistance and very hard to get rid off, people I have no respect for at all, just plane idiots. Thai culture or not, "man kiao" is not needed.