How Would You Have Liked To Be One Of The Ranong 12 ?

[thedivezone]

Could you have been caught on that visa run bus, with an expired visa ?

How about those of us who have a legal wife, possibly a kid or two ? (i Have one (wife) and a kid !))

To me it's obviously the beginning of the plan to seed out "quality" tourists (quote Thaksin) from the ones that are just not affluent enough to be welcome here !

Thoughts, anyone ?

Mike

[Guest endure]

Don't let your visa expire?

[britmaveric]

Don't let your visa expire?

Yes, a bit obvious!!!

[thedivezone]

Don't let your visa expire?

Yes, a bit obvious!!!

Sound advice, both of you, and i congratulate you on your opinion that the Ranong 12 have been treated fairly by the powers that be !

Mike

[Maestro]

Could you have been caught on that visa run bus, with an expired visa ?

No.

To me it's obviously the beginning of the plan to seed out "quality" tourists (quote Thaksin) from the ones that are just not affluent enough to be welcome here !

I do not agree. The motive behind that police action was entirely different. There has been speculation about it in another thread (of which you may be aware), but I fear we shall never know the truth.

--------------

Maestro

[slackula]

Don't let your visa expire?

Yes, a bit obvious!!!

Sound advice, both of you, and i congratulate you on your opinion that the Ranong 12 have been treated fairly by the powers that be !

Mike

I don't see where in their posts they discuss whether the group has been fairly treated or not.

They were just stating the obvious: if these folks had not allowed their visas to expire then they would not be in the sh!t right now. It's not rocket science

[kurgen]

Don't let your visa expire?

Yes, a bit obvious!!!

Sound advice, both of you, and i congratulate you on your opinion that the Ranong 12 have been treated fairly by the powers that be !

Mike

I don't see where in their posts they discuss whether the group has been fairly treated or not.

They were just stating the obvious: if these folks had not allowed their visas to expire then they would not be in the sh!t right now. It's not rocket science

It is to some

[Kerryd]

It's not rocket science

It is to some

V(30)/2400=80

1(O)+1000+13000=14000

(Sorry, that's as close to rocket science as I could come up with on short notice)

In summary, the cost of a 30 day visa (V) divided by length of the visa equals 80 baht per day (or less depending on which service you use.

1 day (O)verstay plus time in jail (5 days at 200 baht/day) plus the cost of a one-way plane ticket home when they deport your butt equals 14,000 baht.

Prices subject to change without notice, depending on length of overstay, cost of plane ticket, ability to pay fine(s) and money lost by trying to bribe the wrong people.

[raro]

There's this guy with wife and family doing time in Klong Prem Central Prison for mugging old ladies off their handbags. Could this happen to you?

Give me a break...overstaying is an offence and if you do it you have to face the music. Just like in any other country.

[Sing_Sling]

Whatever the hidden agenda might be - if there even is one, the fact is quite simple. Thailand, as any otehr country, hands out visas allowing people to stay for X-period of time. Thailand has no obligation to grant anyone a visa, so if you have one do not take it for granted.

K.I.S.S. principle. If your visa is about to expire = renew it.

Any country will have your arse in a sling for overstaying, in Singapore you can even get caned for it before they chuck you out.

Stop whining and thinking that we're something special simply because we're Caucasians and have more money than most of the locals - we still have to follow the rules and laws of wherever we're staying.

[Khutan]

I think that Thailand is quite kind to people who overstay a little compared to other countries like Singapore, Australia, etc.

[Kerryd]

Any country will have your arse in a sling for overstaying, in Singapore you can even get caned for it before they chuck you out.

Not any country. If you overstay your visa in Canada, they send a notice for you to appear at a hearing. Failure to appear at the hearing may result in another notice being sent out, possibly with a non-offensive warning.

If you still decide to not show up, they may put out a deportation order for you. They may even convince a judge to issue a warrant for your arrest, but don't worry, they won't come looking to arrest you. (Apparently, Canada has over 13,000 outstanding deportation orders. Problems is, the authorities have no idea where any of those people are !)

They wait until you are arrested for commiting a crime. If you are convicted, you may get deported after getting out of jail, but your lawyer will probably be able to squash that and get you out on bail.

Once out on bail, you are home free, as once again, they won't actually come looking for you ! As long as you don't commit another crime, no worries !

Even if you are one of the very few unlucky ones that they actually do manage to get rid of, it's still not a problem. Simply go to the embassy the day you get back to your home country, apply for another visa, hop on the next flight back to Canada and viola ! Set for life !

One character actually played this game for 17 years ! Even after being convicted of arranging a million dollar credit card scam. After having been caught with numerous fake passports in a people smuggling ring, and after having been deported at least once already. He just keeps coming back and flouting the system.

So as you can see, some 1st world "developed" nations are far more progressive in their dealings with foreign nationals

[britainmal]

You people really need to use common sense. First of all, the law for overstaying is 200 per day. You cannot go over 20000 baht of overstay, if you do they can deport you. what is this nonsense the police are saying. What clause in the nationality and immigration act did they violate for them to be deported. Were the law breakers given access to counsel like in every democratic country. The traffic police are not immigration police, so what right do they have to deport them. Thai Police must follow the laws of Thailand not their own laws.

Edited February 17, 2006 by britainmal

[HarryHacker]

You people really need to use common sense. First of all, the law for overstaying is 200 per day. You cannot go over 20000 baht of overstay, if you do they can deport you. what is this nonsense the police are saying. What clause in the nationality and immigration act did they violate for them to be deported. Were the law breakers given access to counsel like in every democratic country. The traffic police are not immigration police, so what right do they have to deport them. Thai Police must follwo the laws of Thailand not their own laws.

...not quite the way I read it. almost trollish.

Edited February 17, 2006 by HarryHacker

[britainmal]

...not quite the way I read it. almost trollish.

Well, lighten me on your side of the story and law.

[HarryHacker]

...not quite the way I read it. almost trollish.

Well, lighten me on your side of the story and law.

There are no sides to the law.... http://www.thaivisa.com/303.0.html

....and I think you will find any police division can arrest you, regards if they are Immigration, Traffic, Tourist or whatever.

[Indo-Siam]

Fair disclosure: I run a business based upon helping non-Thais comply with Labor Department and Immigration rules, among other activities.

With that said, I will relate two thoughts that I always have when Thai authorities enforce some rule, and then "busted" individuals (or their friends and admirers) cry foul:

1) Such occurrences must cause all the many, many, many people who spend the money and suffer the inconveniences to rigorously comply with all rules to feel somewhat content in the knowledge that their painstaking efforts actually mean something. If - everytime rules violators were caught - the authorities simply let them go, the rules would rapidly lose all meaning, and the general trend toward compliance would go out the window. People who complied would be fools.

2) I wonder if Immigration violators ever think of what their actions mean to Immigration officers. Does it ever occur to an Immigration violator that he is - in effect - saying to the Immigration officials: " I have no respect for you or your jobs. Your entire system of uniforms, rank titles, documents and forms, little date stamps, and rules bores me, and irritates me - and I think I'm too important to be bothered by your trivial rules - so I'll do what I feel like, when I feel like it - when it's convenient to me, and I will be mightily angered if you choose to actually try to penalize me for a rule that I have violated."

Any time that Immigration wants to raise several tens of millions of baht really easily and quickly, all they have to do is start enforcing the 90 day reporting rule. Although they typically charge just 2,000 baht now for violations, I believe the Immigration law actually allows for a fine of up to 5,000 baht per violation. I suspect that upwards of 90% of all long-term entry permit extension holders do not comply with this rule. I am utterly amazed that this huge "hidden cash cow" has never been aggressively milked. I have to assume that the day of enforcement of this rule is eventually going to come (10,000 violations x 5,000 baht = an easy 50 million baht) - and I can imagine the outcry of whining that will come from all the non-compliers. The whining will surely drown out the chuckles from the thin ranks of individuals who have conscientiously complied.

Cheers!

Steve

Indo-Siam

[Kerryd]

There are no sides to the law.... http://www.thaivisa.com/303.0.html

....and I think you will find any police division can arrest you, regards if they are Immigration, Traffic, Tourist or whatever.

As mentioned in the link, if you have overstayed and can make it to the airport/border, there is usually no problem.

But as mentioned, if you are caught before getting there, even if you are on the way to the airport/border, you could be in for a world of hurt.

"it can be a very different story if you are stopped by the police beforehand for whatever reason and are found to have overstayed - no matter for how long."

In other words, even if your visa expired the day before, you could face jail, fines and deportation.

After watching some of the people I've travelled with on recent visa runs, all it would take is for them to run into a cop in a bad mood (or one with his boss looking over his shoulder) and next stop would be jail and deportation.

Why is it so many people come here and decide that the local rules shouldn't (or don't) apply to them ? Is it arrogance, or ignorance, or a combination of both ?

[richard10365]

I use to live near Aranyapreth and often took the bus there from Sa Kaeo. Every time I took the bus from Aranyapreth, it would stop at a check point. Immagration would board and remove anyone without a proper visa. Usually it was people from Cambodia they removed. Most probably did not have the money to pay the fine and likely spent more time with the authorities than a farang would.

Now 12 farangs were caught without a proper visa. Do they think because they are farang that they should be treated any differently than people from other nations?

I think they got what they deserved.

[Noel]

1. Could you have been caught on that visa run bus, with an expired visa ?

2. How about those of us who have a legal wife, possibly a kid or two ? (i Have one (wife) and a kid !))

3. To me it's obviously the beginning of the plan to seed out "quality" tourists (quote Thaksin) from the ones that are just not affluent enough to be welcome here !

Thoughts, anyone ?

Mike

1. No.

2. Irrelevant.

3. Perhaps the inference is (if there is one, other than the obvious) that they prefer genuine tourists who will respect the law.

[fatter than harry]

I think they were harshly treated, I don't think anyone can argue with that.

If we're talking about breaking rules, what about the police breaking with the 'pay 200 baht a day' rule? It's been the rule that has been enforced day in for the last 5 years as far as I'm aware.

I know it's their country and they can do what they want and we are guests, I agree with those sentiments, however I once pointed an elderly Canadian gentleman to a visa run service as he was a day late before his return home - I would have been mortified if he'd been detained for 12 days in a Ranong cell on my reccomendation.

[seonai]

Britainmal I sort of agree, although scared to say it for fear of the wrath of TV posters, I have never heard of anything like this happening before in Thailand. Usually, a couple of days overstay and you just pay your fine.

[Sing_Sling]

Ok, Canada is an exception . . . as are most European countries.

I actually don't get the gist of this discussion as it seems quite simple - if you do not follow the law then you have the chance to be penalised. Or am I missing something?

[fatter than harry]

I think the thing you may be missing is the fact that for as long as anyone can remember, if you do over stay your visa - which is a stupid thing to do, we all agree - you have been charged 200 bat a day.

Not locked up.

Which seems a bit harsh.

[britmaveric]

I think the thing you may be missing is the fact that for as long as anyone can remember, if you do over stay your visa - which is a stupid thing to do, we all agree - you have been charged 200 bat a day.

Not locked up.

Which seems a bit harsh.

FTH - well I always understood it to be - if you overstay better not be caught. If you can make it to the airport or border without being nicked you were in ok shape - ie pay the fine per day and back to being legal. If you happened to be nicked whether it 1 day or 100days - I kind of assumed what happen to those 12 would happen.

[Crossy]

FTH - well I always understood it to be - if you overstay better not be caught. If you can make it to the airport or border without being nicked you were in ok shape - ie pay the fine per day and back to being legal. If you happened to be nicked whether it 1 day or 100days - I kind of assumed what happen to those 12 would happen.

That has been my understanding too Brit.

[phibunmike]

There's this guy with wife and family doing time in Klong Prem Central Prison for mugging old ladies off their handbags. Could this happen to you?

Give me a break...overstaying is an offence and if you do it you have to face the music. Just like in any other country.

The underlying problem is with the arbitrary nature of certain offences compared with the need to make a precise definition in law.

A 30 day visa duration is not because there is something intrinsically wrong with visiting a country for 31 days. It is a convenient figure plucked from the sky. The people targeted by overstay laws are the ones who intend to take up residence in a country without going through the proper formalities.

Those on their way out clearly do not fit into this category. The written laws fail to take into account the intentions of those involved, and so people who were not the motive for writing the law in the first place become offenders - albeit through their own carelessness or whatever.

An operation like catching overtsayers on their way out obviously does not reduce the number of overstayers in the country - and is meant for purely financial gain.

[HarryHacker]

I think the thing you may be missing is the fact that for as long as anyone can remember, if you do over stay your visa - which is a stupid thing to do, we all agree - you have been charged 200 bat a day.

Not locked up.

Which seems a bit harsh.

FTH - well I always understood it to be - if you overstay better not be caught. If you can make it to the airport or border without being nicked you were in ok shape - ie pay the fine per day and back to being legal. If you happened to be nicked whether it 1 day or 100days - I kind of assumed what happen to those 12 would happen.

I agree Britmaveric, it’s a very simple issue.

What I don’t understand is, why be 1 or 3 days late in doing a Visa run, why not do it 1 or 3 days early? To me is shows a degree of arrogance and foolishness, apologies to sound harsh.

However, I have to admit that a about 6 years ago I was ‘in between’ work and after leaving company I was working for I did not bother to hand in my Work Permit or inform the authorities. I certainly overstayed for an extended period, one day I had a problem with a <deleted> car park security guard at a Tesco store and the police were called. (A situation can arise when you least suspect it.) The cop called the tourist police and whilst arguing with them it dawned on me I was in deep <deleted>. I managed to solve the problem with a few $ before the situation escalated.

I had been very stupid to allow myself to stay here illegally.

[stumonster]

one day I had a problem with a <deleted> car park security guard at a Tesco store

was it over 20 Baht?

I made a mistake once misreading the 16th , I thought it said 18th. It was only when I was standing in line at the border immigration that I was reading my visa stamp again and realised. Now I always double check any stamps I get in any country.

[fatter than harry]

Don't get me wrong, I agree that overstaying your visa is bad for your health, I definately made sure it never happened to me although I would argue against it showing arrogance and contest that not all people who overstay are stupid.

But what abouth the fine system? The one thats been in place for a while now? You know the one, it's ran by the immigration department at every point of entry around the country. We just forget about that?

I'm not trying to win an argument, I just think that the treatment these guys got was harsh, indeed, that was what I was thinking when I first read the story.

If you don't think it was harsh would you have been saying 'fair enough' when you'd overstayed your visas and got put in jail for 12 days? I know I would. Lets even say you knew 12 days in a Thai prison was the accepted punishment for an overstay, would you be so casual with the expiry date?

Anyway, Don't mind me, I'm just be contrary, carry on