Phuket German Expat Loses Bt600K To Skimmers

tropo · May 17, 2013

Exactly! I've done the same method for years here, I've never had a problem with this method using Bangkok Bank. It does seem like Kasikorn Bank has the biggest problem with skimming of all the Thai banks.

Probably only because more foreigners have accounts with Kasikorn than with other banks because they make it easier to open accounts.

Edited May 17, 2013 by tropo

BB1955 · May 17, 2013

I do what most do. I have two bank accounts here in Thailand one has an atm card one doesnt . The bulk of my funds are in the account I dont have a card for . In order to use the atm I must go into the bank and transfer the funds to the atm account .. They would be disapointed in either of them ... Just like me ........

bangkapi · May 17, 2013

I live in Bangkok and work in Africa on a rotational basis. I was in Cebu, Philippines back in March. On my last day of a 2 week holiday I used my BKK Bank ATM card to take out 10K pesos just to see if it was more convenient and cheaper than Western Union to open another bank account and give the card it to a lass who I'm helping through college there.

I returned to Thailand the next day and one week later when I arrived in Africa to my Oil Services job, I checked my bank account.. It was cleaned out.. 127K baht lost to skimming.. I had the ATM card in my possession, so I have no idea how they did it. Nobody was near me when I used it.

I reported it to Bangkok Bank and now I'm waiting.....

From this point on, I'm not keeping more that a few thousand in that account.... 8.5 days wages gone!!.. Dammit!!

hyperdimension · May 17, 2013

To those who have been victims of skimming, did you ensure that your hand that was pressing the PIN digits was covered?

hyperdimension · May 17, 2013

Has anyone encountered any key pad overlays? Here's one shown on the page Sophisticated ATM Skimmer Transmits Stolen Data Via Text Message:

How would it be possible to prevent getting skimmed when there is a keypad overlay?

BradinAsia · May 17, 2013

@candypants...

"Clearly you don't know the difference between an ATM card and a credit or debit card. The difference is enormous."

With a debit card you go to an ATM and withdraw your money from your account.

With an ATM card you go to an ATM and withdraw your money from your account.

Maybe you could please enlighten the rest of us on the difference.

A debit card can be used most anywhere credit cards are accepted. It means the cloned card could be used to go and purchase a notebook, or a 72" Plasma TV (or both ) as well as stealing directly from the account at an ATM.

An ATM card is for removing cash from the ATM only. Now you're enlightened.

Thank you so much, I think everybody already knows that.

I was hoping to hear about a difference that is "enormous."

Jimi007 · May 17, 2013

Exactly! I've done the same method for years here, I've never had a problem with this method using Bangkok Bank. It does seem like Kasikorn Bank has the biggest problem with skimming of all the Thai banks.

Probably only because more foreigners have accounts with Kasikorn than with other banks because they make it easier to open accounts.

I wouldn't know. I set up my first Thai bank account with Siam Commercial. They didn't and still don't have an international branch in the USA. Bangkok Bank has! Plus several other countries. It allows me to do internet transfers via ACH rather than SWIFT at much lower costs. And because as you say it is much easier for a foreigner to set up an account is possibly the reason that so many foreigners are being skimmed?

vijer · May 17, 2013

I feel for the guy, but really 200,000 baht a day limit? Seriously, what could you possibly need that much in one day that couldn't wait for you to go to the bank. Also, really, you keep 600,000 in an account that is accessible by ATM?!

JetsetBkk · May 17, 2013

I feel for the guy, but really 200,000 baht a day limit? Seriously, what could you possibly need that much in one day that couldn't wait for you to go to the bank. Also, really, you keep 600,000 in an account that is accessible by ATM?!

I've got well over a million in my ATM account. No worries as I get an SMS message when money is withdrawn.

I've actually lost my ATM card twice - left it in the machines, I think. One was in Makro - they had a drawer full of cards, but not mine. So I called the bank and stopped the card. Cost me 150 baht for a new one each time.

TallGuyJohninBKK · May 17, 2013

I've got well over a million in my ATM account. No worries as I get an SMS message when money is withdrawn.

The SMS notifications are a nice feature... But once the money is withdrawn from your account by a skimmer, it's gone, and the Thai bank is unlikely to do much to reimburse someone who's victimized by this.

So I'd suggest the SMS notifications need to be combined with other prudent measures:

--keeping a low balance in the ATM card-linked account, and keeping the majority of funds in a linked non ATM account.

--turning off POS (Point of Sale) purchase authorization for the card, meaning it can't be used for swipe and sign purchases -- only ATM withdraws. Thai banks have separate POS daily purchase limits, and they're often quite high by default. And, no PIN is required for such purchases, just use the card number or present the card and go... the thief, that is.

--setting a low daily limit on ATM withdrawals, to help prevent a thief from making multiple back to back ATM withdrawals before you'd have a chance to do anything with your bank.

deecee10 · May 17, 2013

Two things stand out :

1. Having such a large amount in an account accessible by an ATM card.

2. Having a high daily withdrawal limit.

All too risky for me, especially with a bank that's not exactly customer friendly when things go wrong.

cabralad · May 18, 2013

I recently had funds skimmed from my Commonwealth Bank ATM account in a bank in Hua Hin. The following day the bank contacted me and asked if I had any transactions in the Philippines, I responded no. They immediately cancelled the card, 2 days later the skimmed funds were back into my account. A new card arrived from Oz via FedEx and the following day the PIN arrived also by FedEx. Definately a different experience from the above OP.

Wow, great bank response.

I had $300 stolen from my Wespac account by an illegal Paypal direct debit, westpac would not help and it took 3 months to get my money back from Paypal.

crazykopite · May 18, 2013

I know of someone who this happened to who lives on Samui at around the same time , When speaking to them a couple of weeks ago they said they were still awaiting for their bank to re-compensate them I believe there back was the SCB It seems to me that Thai banks are rteluctant to give you your money back even though they know it is not your fault something that does not happen in the Western world I suppose that is another reason why Thais prefare to keep there money under the bed !!!!!!!!!!!

spectrumisgreen · May 18, 2013

Kasikorn bank response to this is unacceptable!

Banking in Thailand is a JOKE.

He should sue the bank, but he wont be able since he has only 125K baht left.

edit: I can already see it coming the "good luck suing in thailand" replies. LOL

125 BAHT left!!! NOT 125K BAHT!!! Hence the '... the thieves had drained his account to the dregs.' tag-line!! You think the thieves would not have taken another 1000K baht plus if it was there??? (personally, I always eye every ATM machine I ever use suspiciously, whether outside a bank or stand-alone.. 'looks new?.. funny little add-on plastic bit (housing a scanner/ camera?) at the top?.. check.. check.. check.. never used a machine I didn't scrutinise first!.. paranoia?.. does help sometimes! - never been skimmed!!!')...

Soupdragon · May 18, 2013

I had an ATM card cloned on Phuket at the end of last year. Fortunately HSBC sophisticated security picked up suspicious activity and cancelled the card so I lost nothing.

Rosco911 · May 18, 2013

JetsetBkk, on 17 May 2013 - 13:31, said:

I suggest he reads this story and sees if his situation is similar:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/528145-phuket-atm-scams-even-professionals-get-caught-out/

PS. For 10 baht a month, I get an SMS message when any money is removed or added to my account.

For another 10 baht, I get an SMS message when ever my Internet banking account is logged in.

that service is free with bkk bank and has been operating for years,excellent system never failed me once.

Dämn Krung Thai bank charging me for what is free elsewhere!

SCB have just started alerting me by email when my account is accessed. It seems to be a free service. The email comes in before I've even logged out of my account. At first I thought it was a bit of a nuisance but it's really quite a good idea. Especially as the online security isn't up to much with just username and password needed to access the account.

Do any Thai banks use card readers like we do in the UK to access online banking? They should. And the daily withdrawal limits are very low in the UK. My bank in the UK only permits 300 UKP a day (around 13500 baht).

The problem with SCB is that you can set your own limit at the SCB ATM machine so having a small daily limit does not help because the skimmer can reset your limit. I found this out when I ask SCB to up my limit and was told I could do it myself at the ATM machine.

Soupdragon · May 18, 2013

The problem with SCB is that you can set your own limit at the SCB ATM machine so having a small daily limit does not help because the skimmer can reset your limit. I found this out when I ask SCB to up my limit and was told I could do it myself at the ATM machine.

That could be useful but having a seperate PIN number to use the service would add another layer of security.

TallGuyJohninBKK · May 18, 2013

I had an ATM card cloned on Phuket at the end of last year. Fortunately HSBC sophisticated security picked up suspicious activity and cancelled the card so I lost nothing.

The difference here is based on the location of the home bank:

Thai-based banks basically operate from the principle that the cardholder is responsible for any fraud on losses on the card that occur prior to the cardholder notifying the bank to freeze the card (which can be kind of troublesome in that the cardholder often doesn't KNOW fraud has occurred until AFTER it's happened).

On the other hand, U.S. based banks and those in many other countries have national laws/regulations (unlike Thailand) that protect cardholders against liability for bankcard fraud, assuming there's no indication the cardholder was involved or negligent or failed to report in a timely way.

Thailand basically has no legal consumer protection laws for Thai bank card holders. Not if someone clones or steals your Thai bank card. Not if someone at the bank steals money from your account, etc etc.

Pretty much the only thing Thailand does have is a national bank deposit insurance plan that protects bank deposits, up to a certain limit per bank, in the event the bank goes bankrupt or otherwise fails.

TallGuyJohninBKK · May 18, 2013

As for ATMs, it's always better to use an ATM that's inside a bank branch -- as opposed to those that are standalone ATMs.

The ones inside bank branches are presumably better and more carefully maintained, and there's probably also better security and video monitoring that would tend to protect against physical tampering.

Soupdragon · May 18, 2013

I had an ATM card cloned on Phuket at the end of last year. Fortunately HSBC sophisticated security picked up suspicious activity and cancelled the card so I lost nothing.

The difference here is based on the location of the home bank:

Thai-based banks basically operate from the principle that the cardholder is responsible for any fraud on losses on the card that occur prior to the cardholder notifying the bank to freeze the card (which can be kind of troublesome in that the cardholder often doesn't KNOW fraud has occurred until AFTER it's happened).

On the other hand, U.S. based banks and those in many other countries have national laws/regulations (unlike Thailand) that protect cardholders against liability for bankcard fraud, assuming there's no indication the cardholder was involved or negligent or failed to report in a timely way.

Thailand basically has no legal consumer protection laws for Thai bank card holders. Not if someone clones or steals your Thai bank card. Not if someone at the bank steals money from your account, etc etc.

Pretty much the only thing Thailand does have is a national bank deposit insurance plan that protects bank deposits, up to a certain limit per bank, in the event the bank goes bankrupt or otherwise fails.

Understood but I was more talking about the sophistication in the banks systems software that can detect suspicious activity and flag it. A case that highlights this was a reported incident on Phuket. A man used his Thai bank ATM card on Phuket and hours later a clone of the card was used somewhere in Issan to fraudulently withdraw money. Now it would be physical impossible to travel the distance in the elapsed time between withdrawals. A good system would see that and flag it as suspicious.

GeorgeO · May 18, 2013

JetsetBkk, on 17 May 2013 - 13:31, said:

I suggest he reads this story and sees if his situation is similar:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/528145-phuket-atm-scams-even-professionals-get-caught-out/

PS. For 10 baht a month, I get an SMS message when any money is removed or added to my account.

For another 10 baht, I get an SMS message when ever my Internet banking account is logged in.

that service is free with bkk bank and has been operating for years,excellent system never failed me once.

Agreed. I receive my messages within seconds of logging into my account or transfers, etc., being made from it.

TallGuyJohninBKK · May 18, 2013

Snapdragon, you're right, the Thai banks seem to have nowhere nearly as sophisticated fraud detection systems as some of their western counterparts...

But then again, why should they? In a country where the cardholder, not the bank, is pretty much held financially responsible for all fraud, it's not really a compelling financial issue for the bank to prevent bankcard fraud. Nor is it a competitive issue, since pretty much all the Thai banks play by the same rules when it comes to bankcard fraud.

Whereas in other countries, the banks are held more financially responsible for bankcard fraud. Thus it's in their financial interest to try to prevent fraud before it happens.

Do you think Kasikorn really cares if the German got screwed out of 600,000 baht? Why should they? None of that loss is coming out of their pockets, even though they (along with the other Thai banks) perpetuate an inherently un-secure bankcard system where all the liability falls on the cardholder.

Edited May 18, 2013 by TallGuyJohninBKK

chrisinth · May 18, 2013

I know the attached clip is related to America, but I think it outlines what you should be looking for with ATMs related to skimming.

I wonder how many readers actually know what skimming is all about? Pre warned is pre armed................

sirchai · May 18, 2013

On December 17, he put his ATM card into a machine in Patong, and it didn’t recognise his pin. A person came up behind him and offered to help, but Mr Schmidt told him to go away. When he tried a second time, the pin code was accepted, and he was able to withdrawal his money..

Don't you think that the 'person' behind him had installed a second device to get all needed information to empty his bank account?

When he typed his pin the second time, he made sure they'd gotten his details. Why would you tell your German bank to have a 200K limit here?

Somebody else from Germany could have sent him the money on his account, without any problems to buy a car.

Or did he stay with a local woman/man, who found out that he had that amount of money? Land of WHY'S.-

Edited May 18, 2013 by sirchai

Markaew · May 18, 2013

The Kasikornbank website says about skimming, in part, “For any losses suffered, practices adhered to by all commercial banks will be applied for losses resulting from skimmers installed at any ATM. [if] the losses are deemed as not resulting from the mistake or negligence of cardholders, card-issuing banks will be responsible for the losses.”

Best of luck with this bank policy. I had 50,000 baht skimmed about 18 months ago from Kasikorn bank and I had really no explanation or interest from them in my loss. Too bad was their reaction. I cancelled my ATM card and only use my book for transactions. Sure it's a pain, but better than the worry about fraud.

If I have over 100K in a single account, I do the same thing.

Markaew · May 18, 2013

I have had bank workers try to skim money out of my account using incorrect information entered into my bank book. If I hadn't taken a quick look before leaving I would have been out 20K. When I corrected her it was just a "sorry" like it was routine and she corrected the entry. So if you only use a bank book and not an ATM card you still need to be careful. If I had walked out and tried to correct it later I believe there would have been denials all around.

I always thought these large deposits required for non-o visas are just targets for skimming from the bank.

Markaew · May 18, 2013

I had an ATM card cloned on Phuket at the end of last year. Fortunately HSBC sophisticated security picked up suspicious activity and cancelled the card so I lost nothing.

The difference here is based on the location of the home bank:

Thai-based banks basically operate from the principle that the cardholder is responsible for any fraud on losses on the card that occur prior to the cardholder notifying the bank to freeze the card (which can be kind of troublesome in that the cardholder often doesn't KNOW fraud has occurred until AFTER it's happened).

On the other hand, U.S. based banks and those in many other countries have national laws/regulations (unlike Thailand) that protect cardholders against liability for bankcard fraud, assuming there's no indication the cardholder was involved or negligent or failed to report in a timely way.

Thailand basically has no legal consumer protection laws for Thai bank card holders. Not if someone clones or steals your Thai bank card. Not if someone at the bank steals money from your account, etc etc.

Pretty much the only thing Thailand does have is a national bank deposit insurance plan that protects bank deposits, up to a certain limit per bank, in the event the bank goes bankrupt or otherwise fails.

Understood but I was more talking about the sophistication in the banks systems software that can detect suspicious activity and flag it. A case that highlights this was a reported incident on Phuket. A man used his Thai bank ATM card on Phuket and hours later a clone of the card was used somewhere in Issan to fraudulently withdraw money. Now it would be physical impossible to travel the distance in the elapsed time between withdrawals. A good system would see that and flag it as suspicious.

If the banks are not responsible from the results of skimming then they have no motivation to improve their system. Besides, there really isn't any sympathy for a foreigner losing money in Thailand by the Thais.

The Thais just want to know how he lost his money so they can get in on the action.

Edited May 18, 2013 by Markaew

TallGuyJohninBKK · May 18, 2013

I have had bank workers try to skim money out of my account using incorrect information entered into my bank book. If I hadn't taken a quick look before leaving I would have been out 20K. When I corrected her it was just a "sorry" like it was routine and she corrected the entry. So if you only use a bank book and not an ATM card you still need to be careful. If I had walked out and tried to correct it later I believe there would have been denials all around.

I always thought these large deposits required for non-o visas are just targets for skimming from the bank.

Unfortunately, there have been lots of reports in the news over time of Thai bank employees and even managers stealing money out of customers' accounts...and Thai customers too...not just farangs.

Sometimes it's been direct theft. Sometimes it's been providing account details/info to outside parties (criminals, BFs/GFs, etc).

And as the more experienced around here might expect, the typical response from the banks in those situations has NOT been to accept responsibility for the criminal acts of their own employees and reimburse the bank customers, but instead, to tell the victims that it's a police matter and they need to seek restitution through the police.

Amazing Thailand!

JetsetBkk · May 18, 2013

The problem with SCB is that you can set your own limit at the SCB ATM machine so having a small daily limit does not help because the skimmer can reset your limit. I found this out when I ask SCB to up my limit and was told I could do it myself at the ATM machine.

That is just so stupid! Do the people at SCB have any brains?

Markaew · May 18, 2013

I have had bank workers try to skim money out of my account using incorrect information entered into my bank book. If I hadn't taken a quick look before leaving I would have been out 20K. When I corrected her it was just a "sorry" like it was routine and she corrected the entry. So if you only use a bank book and not an ATM card you still need to be careful. If I had walked out and tried to correct it later I believe there would have been denials all around.

I always thought these large deposits required for non-o visas are just targets for skimming from the bank.

Unfortunately, there have been lots of reports in the news over time of Thai bank employees and even managers stealing money out of customers' accounts...and Thai customers too...not just farangs.

Sometimes it's been direct theft. Sometimes it's been providing account details/info to outside parties (criminals, BFs/GFs, etc).

And as the more experienced around here might expect, the typical response from the banks in those situations has NOT been to accept responsibility for the criminal acts of their own employees and reimburse the bank customers, but instead, to tell the victims that it's a police matter and they need to seek restitution through the police.

Amazing Thailand!

Yes and if you go to the police they tell you to get a lawyer.

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