No shame,no morals.

[StreetCowboy]

So if we choose to buy something,we deserve to be ripped of simply because we chose to buy something,wow that's some great logic there.

What would you think of the people of a country who overcharged the servicemen of an allied country that was defending and dying for them? What would you think of the morals of the citizens of a country that did that? It doesn't bother me. I got overcharged in Thailand and Vietnam a long time ago.

For an interesting experiment google,"Growing reports of civilians overcharging American servicemen for taxi fare drinks and food." Do you have the bottle to post the results?

Is this relevant to my thread or me,what are you talking about.

I think he's agreeing with you. I think he concurs that market segmentation and differential pricing is the most scurrilous of sins, particularly while applied to himself as a serving US serviceman in foreign countries.

SC

Growing reports of Australian civilians overcharging American servicemen for taxi fare drinks and food.

Australia 1942: In the Shadow of War

Ok,I think you know what I think about it,it's disgraceful.

Our American allies or brothers as I sometimes like to think of them deserved nothing but respect,if I was a cab driver I would not even charge them.

That's my thoughts.

Right. So we're agreed it's OK to charge different fares to people depending on who they are.

I love it when we reach consensus

SC

[Kangawallafox]

So if we choose to buy something,we deserve to be ripped of simply because we chose to buy something,wow that's some great logic there.

What would you think of the people of a country who overcharged the servicemen of an allied country that was defending and dying for them? What would you think of the morals of the citizens of a country that did that? It doesn't bother me. I got overcharged in Thailand and Vietnam a long time ago.

For an interesting experiment google,"Growing reports of civilians overcharging American servicemen for taxi fare drinks and food." Do you have the bottle to post the results?

Is this relevant to my thread or me,what are you talking about.

I think he's agreeing with you. I think he concurs that market segmentation and differential pricing is the most scurrilous of sins, particularly while applied to himself as a serving US serviceman in foreign countries.

SC

Growing reports of Australian civilians overcharging American servicemen for taxi fare drinks and food.

Australia 1942: In the Shadow of War

Ok,I think you know what I think about it,it's disgraceful.

Our American allies or brothers as I sometimes like to think of them deserved nothing but respect,if I was a cab driver I would not even charge them.

That's my thoughts.

Right. So we're agreed it's OK to charge different fares to people depending on who they are.

I love it when we reach consensus

SC

Street cowboy,your one of the people here who seemed to have some sense.

I will spell it out again because I have already said it more then once,I actually support dual pricing .

I have stated that places in Thailand that I visit often such as the zoo should do it,locals could never afford to go if they payed a normal rate,and if we payed their rate they would close down.

Yep the issue is when they lie about it,is it hard for people here to not only read through the posts before commenting,but to also not twist things into a complete falsehood.

[StreetCowboy]

...

Yep the issue is when they lie about it,is it hard for people here to not only read through the posts before commenting,but to also not twist things into a complete falsehood.

So we're absolutely clear that they told you they were charging you the same unmarked price that they were charging Thais? Or was it simply that the lack of a clearly marked pricing strategy (which would have been consistent with ISO 9001 - don't get me started on the importance of quality*) resulted in the old buffer misquoting you?

* Quality is the single distinguishing factor of successful companies like Macdonalds or Red Bull or Rolls Royce or Microsoft - the ability to deliver the purchased product to specification

SC

[Hardened Spanker]

Hey there Kangawallafox ... you are true an amazing man.

May I ask what country you are in now?

Still up Surin way or back in Oz?

Never been to surin.

OK ... no problems.

What country are you now?

Thailand,will be back in oz soon,back and forth.

I love Thailand so much,however on a permanent basis it's not for me.

So you're a "Romance Traveller" then,are you?

[Nignoy]

So if we choose to buy something,we deserve to be ripped of simply because we chose to buy something,wow that's some great logic there.

What would you think of the people of a country who overcharged the servicemen of an allied country that was defending and dying for them? What would you think of the morals of the citizens of a country that did that? It doesn't bother me. I got overcharged in Thailand and Vietnam a long time ago.

For an interesting experiment google,"Growing reports of civilians overcharging American servicemen for taxi fare drinks and food." Do you have the bottle to post the results?

Is this relevant to my thread or me,what are you talking about.

I think he's agreeing with you. I think he concurs that market segmentation and differential pricing is the most scurrilous of sins, particularly while applied to himself as a serving US serviceman in foreign countries.

SC

Growing reports of Australian civilians overcharging American servicemen for taxi fare drinks and food.

Australia 1942: In the Shadow of War

Ok,I think you know what I think about it,it's disgraceful.

Our American allies or brothers as I sometimes like to think of them deserved nothing but respect,if I was a cab driver I would not even charge them.

That's my thoughts.not just foreign serviceman in the past ,same happens present day, airport taxis in aus overcharge any one they pick up from arrivals immaterial of colour race or creed,especially after 2200hrs, many moons ago in patpong ,there were 4 different price ranges, US Forces, Europeans,asians and thai, in Singapore, the prices used to double when the US fleet was in port!!hats off to kanga he is the first nightshift worker who has difficulty sleeping and at the ripe old age of 36 years too ,kin ell at 36 was chasing wild animals round the globe , for the trading zoo I was working for at the time, if any of you remember the john wayne movie Hatari it was filmed on one of our animal farms in Kenya, I was not there at the time but it gives you an idea of my job, didn't sleep much then either, and I still didn't worry or feel degraded if I paid 2 bob more for my beer than the natives, last but not least!! so you have married a thai lady, is she from Isaan ,you love Thailand , but have you tried living here, spent a couple of weeks or months in a Buddhist retreat, oh no you cant have, you don't believe in learning the thai language, truth be known the reason you return to Thailand is purely for your wifes purposes, there is obviously so much you don't like about the land of smiles, you don't have to be like many expats who believe they are more thai than the thais, just go with the flow ,make your own coffee and live a little, sorry about punctuation ,but my stone , age Dragon speak program does what it wants, but have to persevere till my hands open up!!

[Kangawallafox]

So if we choose to buy something,we deserve to be ripped of simply because we chose to buy something,wow that's some great logic there.

What would you think of the people of a country who overcharged the servicemen of an allied country that was defending and dying for them? What would you think of the morals of the citizens of a country that did that? It doesn't bother me. I got overcharged in Thailand and Vietnam a long time ago.

For an interesting experiment google,"Growing reports of civilians overcharging American servicemen for taxi fare drinks and food." Do you have the bottle to post the results?

Is this relevant to my thread or me,what are you talking about.

I think he's agreeing with you. I think he concurs that market segmentation and differential pricing is the most scurrilous of sins, particularly while applied to himself as a serving US serviceman in foreign countries.

SC

Growing reports of Australian civilians overcharging American servicemen for taxi fare drinks and food.

Australia 1942: In the Shadow of War

Ok,I think you know what I think about it,it's disgraceful.

Our American allies or brothers as I sometimes like to think of them deserved nothing but respect,if I was a cab driver I would not even charge them.

That's my thoughts.not just foreign serviceman in the past ,same happens present day, airport taxis in aus overcharge any one they pick up from arrivals immaterial of colour race or creed,especially after 2200hrs, many moons ago in patpong ,there were 4 different price ranges, US Forces, Europeans,asians and thai, in Singapore, the prices used to double when the US fleet was in port!!hats off to kanga he is the first nightshift worker who has difficulty sleeping and at the ripe old age of 36 years too ,kin ell at 36 was chasing wild animals round the globe , for the trading zoo I was working for at the time, if any of you remember the john wayne movie Hatari it was filmed on one of our animal farms in Kenya, I was not there at the time but it gives you an idea of my job, didn't sleep much then either, and I still didn't worry or feel degraded if I paid 2 bob more for my beer than the natives, last but not least!! so you have married a thai lady, is she from Isaan ,you love Thailand , but have you tried living here, spent a couple of weeks or months in a Buddhist retreat, oh no you cant have, you don't believe in learning the thai language, truth be known the reason you return to Thailand is purely for your wifes purposes, there is obviously so much you don't like about the land of smiles, you don't have to be like many expats who believe they are more thai than the thais, just go with the flow ,make your own coffee and live a little, sorry about punctuation ,but my stone , age Dragon speak program does what it wants, but have to persevere till my hands open up!!

I return for my wife's purposes you say,I can't have lived here you say,have I ever lived in a Buddhist retreat.

I lived in bkk for several years some time ago,a long time ago.

Never stayed in a Buddhist retreat in the sense you speak of however I was a monk for two years if that counts.

My time here was before I met my wife mostly when I was training in Muay Thai,age being what it is I don't stay in camps now due to a back injury.

Punctuation I don't care about,your assumptions I'm used to here.

Why don't I speak thai,takes a strong will to learn a language,it has to really really interest you.

Do I love Thailand,obviously,look at what I have done here.

[Nignoy]

lived as a monk for 2 years ,trained for muay thai ,but no interest in the thai language did Sanskrit not interest you either, which Wat or retreat did you stay in as a monk??,there were a few of us Brits training in Muay Thai near Leong Nok Tha in isaanfrom 1964 onwards centuries before it became the thing to do for young aussies to do on their break year, after a bad case of lepto-spirosis in 66, I was in such bad shape I could not resume training, it would really interest me where you spent your 2years as amonk, I have spent a lot of time over the years , mostly in Leong nok tha, Warin, retreat periods in Ayuthya, but also in east Grinstead when staying in England and Konstanz when staying in Germany, when not pm me,as Imentioned before I only get on the net mornings

[NOPOMPAM]

Possibly a misunderstanding? We're there any add ons and how do you know what "everyone else" pays. My advice is to chill and just go with it. Change shops is what it's all about.

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

[David48]

...however I was a monk for two years if that counts.

Why don't I speak Thai, takes a strong will to learn a language,it has to really really interest you.

WOW ... that's amazing.

How did you survive as a Monk for 2 years without speaking the local lingo?

That could almost be a thread in itself!

You have a lot of knowledge to pass onto to folk like me ...

May I ask how long ago that was?

[StreetCowboy]

...however I was a monk for two years if that counts.

Why don't I speak Thai, takes a strong will to learn a language,it has to really really interest you.

WOW ... that's amazing.

How did you survive as a Monk for 2 years without speaking the local lingo?

That could almost be a thread in itself!

You have a lot of knowledge to pass onto to folk like me ...

May I ask how long ago that was?

Maybe it was a silent order

[atyclb]

This is nothing to do with morals, it's to do with running a business and maximising revenue.

A business which does not display fixed prices (and many which do) will sell for varying prices depending on what they think the customer will pay. It happens everywhere.

It appears they were correct, the OP was happy with the price charged. This pricing approach has a drawback as this post attests, when someone finds out other people have been charged less. So their business decision on pricing fell over. This is not a moral issue, it's a business decision which didn't work out.

Is it a moral issue when two people sitting next to each other on a flight find out they have paid different prices for the ticket? Of course not.

Let me first address the airline seat price discrepancy you mention;

Airline allocates a certain number of seats that are sold at an economy rate specific price. Travel companies in addition may purchase a block of seats that also will be sold at that economy price point. Then there are other seats although they may be in the same section, that are priced higher. For example when you go on the internet to buy the first tier economy seats they dont ask you to turn on the camera to see your face, skin color, ethnicity to decide if you are eligible for that price, nor do they ask your nationality or ethnicity as a per-requisite to checking prices.

On the very surface your argument and example about airline prices seems plausible, but one simply needs to think a little bit into how that pricing structure works to see it cannot be used in the context of double pricing based on national origin, ethnicity.

Issues of morality and lack of shame in thai society are far from secret unknowns and have been addressed and even written about by prominent thai's. One such author/ university professor that comes to mind is Voranai Vanijaka. Google "Decency drowns in a culture without a sense of shame"

In my opinion charging more to customers based upon their skin color or ethnicity is simply an extension of a culture of cheating and corruption and altered senses of shame and morality.

[khunpa]

Shame is only connected to "losing face" meaning... Getting confronted with doing something wrong. The act of doing something wrong is not a moral problem, as long as you do not get caught and are thereby confronted with "losing face"...

And the worst thing you can do is make someone "lose face"... since you will then have created an enemy (no matter if you are actually morally right).

Best advice is therefore: Just shop somewhere else...

[Rakathaorai]

Every morning my wife and I head down the soi and get ice coffee,lovely couple selling it,friendly as hell. Today we discovered they charge us more then everyone else,no prizes for guessing why,we will now go to another cart that charges more but at least tells the truth and charges everyone the same. Don't mind the new cart,don't mind paying more,it's the fact the other one had to whisper in her husbands ear after he quoted the normal price,it then jumped up to the special farang thai wife price,asked another local what they paid and they were busted. As I said I have no problem paying more as I now do at the new place,it's the fact that they are so friendly,so nice,and putting a knife in your back at the same time. I told them why I will not go there again,will not hurt their business sure but they should know they lost about twenty eight coffees a week.

Yes the more farang protest and boycott this disgraceful practise the sooner the Thais will be in a position that this angle is a liability to their business!

“Asiatique The Riverfront” blocked Richard Barrow from their Facebook Page for organising a boycott against charging a higher foreigner price

http://www.richardbarrow.com/2012/12/why-asiatique-the-riverfront-has-banned-me-from-their-facebook-page/

[true blue]

I thought "lol" meant "lots of love" but i have come across it many times in TV (including this thread) where, if it meant what I thought it meant it would be completely out of context......does "lol" have a different meaning when used on TV?

lol (laugh out loud)

[canuckamuck]

How does this thread have such legs?

[thailiketoo]

Every morning my wife and I head down the soi and get ice coffee,lovely couple selling it,friendly as hell. Today we discovered they charge us more then everyone else,no prizes for guessing why,we will now go to another cart that charges more but at least tells the truth and charges everyone the same. Don't mind the new cart,don't mind paying more,it's the fact the other one had to whisper in her husbands ear after he quoted the normal price,it then jumped up to the special farang thai wife price,asked another local what they paid and they were busted. As I said I have no problem paying more as I now do at the new place,it's the fact that they are so friendly,so nice,and putting a knife in your back at the same time. I told them why I will not go there again,will not hurt their business sure but they should know they lost about twenty eight coffees a week.

Yes the more farang protest and boycott this disgraceful practise the sooner the Thais will be in a position that this angle is a liability to their business!

“Asiatique The Riverfront” blocked Richard Barrow from their Facebook Page for organising a boycott against charging a higher foreigner price

http://www.richardbarrow.com/2012/12/why-asiatique-the-riverfront-has-banned-me-from-their-facebook-page/

Sounds like sneaky European behavior to me! Who owns Asiatique? I don't think it is Thai people. Anyone know? But If I am correct and it is not Thai people what does that say?

[Rakathaorai]

Let me first address the airline seat price discrepancy you mention;

Airline allocates a certain number of seats that are sold at an economy rate specific price. Travel companies in addition may purchase a block of seats that also will be sold at that economy price point. Then there are other seats although they may be in the same section, that are priced higher. For example when you go on the internet to buy the first tier economy seats they dont ask you to turn on the camera to see your face, skin color, ethnicity to decide if you are eligible for that price, nor do they ask your nationality or ethnicity as a per-requisite to checking prices.

On the very surface your argument and example about airline prices seems plausible, but one simply needs to think a little bit into how that pricing structure works to see it cannot be used in the context of double pricing based on national origin, ethnicity.

Issues of morality and lack of shame in thai society are far from secret unknowns and have been addressed and even written about by prominent thai's. One such author/ university professor that comes to mind is Voranai Vanijaka. Google "Decency drowns in a culture without a sense of shame"

In my opinion charging more to customers based upon their skin color or ethnicity is simply an extension of a culture of cheating and corruption and altered senses of shame and morality.

Excellent point!

http://rightnowplus.org/EC/es/3736/1/web/n/noticias/decency-drowns-in-a-culture-without-a-sense-of-shame/

Shame is only connected to "losing face" meaning... Getting confronted with doing something wrong. The act of doing something wrong is not a moral problem, as long as you do not get caught and are thereby confronted with "losing face"...

And the worst thing you can do is make someone "lose face"... since you will then have created an enemy (no matter if you are actually morally right).

Best advice is therefore: Just shop somewhere else...

I disagree. Thailand and other third world countries will HAVE to eventually bring in price parity and also reduce the ineffective , inefficient side of saving face. The more that speak up and boycott the faster we can assist Thailand to become an even greater country!

Yes the more farang protest and boycott this disgraceful practise the sooner the Thais will be in a position that this angle is a liability to their business!

“Asiatique The Riverfront” blocked Richard Barrow from their Facebook Page for organising a boycott against charging a higher foreigner price

http://www.richardbarrow.com/2012/12/why-asiatique-the-riverfront-has-banned-me-from-their-facebook-page/

Sounds like sneaky European behavior to me! Who owns Asiatique? I don't think it is Thai people. Anyone know? But If I am correct and it is not Thai people what does that say?

It's a company operating within Thailand so at the very least the majority of shares in this BKK branch will be Thai owned and controlled.

[JLCrab]

I thought "lol" meant "lots of love" but i have come across it many times in TV (including this thread) where, if it meant what I thought it meant it would be completely out of context......does "lol" have a different meaning when used on TV?

lol (laugh out loud)

LOL is the internet equivalent of someone who in person laughs at their own jokes.

[thailiketoo]

Sounds like sneaky European behavior to me! Who owns Asiatique? I don't think it is Thai people. Anyone know? But If I am correct and it is not Thai people what does that say?

It's a company operating within Thailand so at the very least the majority of shares in this BKK branch will be Thai owned and controlled.

Not true. Maybe you have never heard of the Treaty of Amity or other such legal ways of owning 100% of a Thai company but I assure you they are there. Perhaps you should do your homework before you post.

Having said that I think Charoen Sirivadhanabhakdi owns it. Someone else can confirm.

[ttthailand]

Two days ago I was at Central Festival Chiang Mai. I needed to get a tuk tuk, taxi or baht bus back to my hotel which is about 5 minutes away down the highway. First guy asked 150baht, walked to another group of tuk tuks and the price was 200 baht. I thought screw those clowns and walked down the street where I had got tuk tuks to the same location for 80baht before. Needless to say there were no tuk tuks , taxis or baht busses so kept walking. About an hour later I go my ride, 80 baht..... But wasted an hour of my time and was hot and sweaty.... Should had paid the 150 and been happy. Such is life !

[Rakathaorai]

Sounds like sneaky European behavior to me! Who owns Asiatique? I don't think it is Thai people. Anyone know? But If I am correct and it is not Thai people what does that say?

It's a company operating within Thailand so at the very least the majority of shares in this BKK branch will be Thai owned and controlled.

Not true. Maybe you have never heard of the Treaty of Amity or other such legal ways of owning 100% of a Thai company but I assure you they are there. Perhaps you should do your homework before you post.

Having said that I think Charoen Sirivadhanabhakdi owns it. Someone else can confirm.

In all likelyhood it is true ... face it about 0.1% of Thai companies would fall under the US Amnesty yours is a neglible point basically fat chance of it being such an American company!

[thailiketoo]

Sounds like sneaky European behavior to me! Who owns Asiatique? I don't think it is Thai people. Anyone know? But If I am correct and it is not Thai people what does that say?

It's a company operating within Thailand so at the very least the majority of shares in this BKK branch will be Thai owned and controlled.

Not true. Maybe you have never heard of the Treaty of Amity or other such legal ways of owning 100% of a Thai company but I assure you they are there. Perhaps you should do your homework before you post.

Having said that I think Charoen Sirivadhanabhakdi owns it. Someone else can confirm.

In all likelyhood it is true ... face it about 0.1% of Thai companies would fall under the US Amnesty yours is a neglible point basically fat chance of it being such an American company!

The Act also allows the Minister of Finance to authorize foreign ownership above 49 percent only if recommended by the central bank. In January 2009, the Ministry of Finance allowed Malaysia's CIMB Group to hold majority shares (around 93 percent) in BankThai, the country's ninth largest commercial bank, changing its name to CIMB Thai Bank Public Company Limited. In February 2010, the Ministry of Finance also granted Industrial and Commercial Bank of China (ICBC - the largest commercial bank in China) a waiver for the 49 percent foreign ownership limit to 97.24 percent in ACL Bank, Thailand’s smallest commercial bank, renaming it as ICBC (Thai) Public Company Limited. The other two are Nakornthon Bank, with England’s Standard Chartered Group, holding 99.87 percent ownership and the new name Standard Chartered Bank (Thai) Public Company Limited, and Bank of Asia with Singaporean United Overseas Bank as a majority holder (99.66 percent ownership), called UOB (Thai) Public Company Limited. The increase of foreign participation in the Thai banking system has improved competitiveness in the sector.

http://www.state.gov/e/eb/rls/othr/ics/2013/204745.htm

I list the above as an example of the many exceptions that large businesses are granted to own projects in Thailand. Since the project you are discussing is a multi billion baht project I would think anyone can own it.

[StreetCowboy]

On a scale of shameless lack of morality, which would you rank highest:

- overcharging a couple of baht for a cup of coffee (actually, not overcharging, since it was still cheaper than the stall up the road, but differential pricing)

- towing refugees out to sea and abandoning them

- allowing illegal prostitution to flourish

- selling national industries to the Singapore government sovereign wealth fund and trousering the proceeds free of tax?

SC

[thailiketoo]

On a scale of shameless lack of morality, which would you rank highest:

- overcharging a couple of baht for a cup of coffee (actually, not overcharging, since it was still cheaper than the stall up the road, but differential pricing)

- towing refugees out to sea and abandoning them

- allowing illegal prostitution to flourish

- selling national industries to the Singapore government sovereign wealth fund and trousering the proceeds free of tax?

SC

Depends, who owns the national industries? What other industries does Thailand own? National parks I guess but other than that? What is the difference between a refugee and an expat sneaking in to Thailand because he ran out of cash in another country? Could Thailand tell him he couldn't come in? And is it Thailand's obligation to feed and care for people who try to sneak in across an unmarked border?

Or I'll suggest one more. Is it shameless for a poster trying to turn a question about selling coffee in to a moral and political debate that tars all of Thailand with the same dark brush? Is that shameless? I think it is.

And give us folk from NYC a break about the illegal prostitution flourishing will ya? Ever been to the Big Apple. Prostitution has been flourishing legal or illegal since granny straightened up and started walking upright. Got some bananas, you handsome caveman you.

[mogandave]

Don't be a doormat!!!!!

[StreetCowboy]

Don't be a sofa!

[David48]

Don't be a sofa!

OH ... I don't know.

I'm kinda soft and cuddly and like when the lady reclines on top ...

But I'm not a Pattaya sofa ... they look more like a Chesterfield due to the 'dimpling'.

[atyclb]

On a scale of shameless lack of morality, which would you rank highest:

- overcharging a couple of baht for a cup of coffee (actually, not overcharging, since it was still cheaper than the stall up the road, but differential pricing)

- towing refugees out to sea and abandoning them

- allowing illegal prostitution to flourish

- selling national industries to the Singapore government sovereign wealth fund and trousering the proceeds free of tax?

SC

Depends, who owns the national industries? What other industries does Thailand own? National parks I guess but other than that? What is the difference between a refugee and an expat sneaking in to Thailand because he ran out of cash in another country? Could Thailand tell him he couldn't come in? And is it Thailand's obligation to feed and care for people who try to sneak in across an unmarked border?

Or I'll suggest one more. Is it shameless for a poster trying to turn a question about selling coffee in to a moral and political debate that tars all of Thailand with the same dark brush? Is that shameless? I think it is.

And give us folk from NYC a break about the illegal prostitution flourishing will ya? Ever been to the Big Apple. Prostitution has been flourishing legal or illegal since granny straightened up and started walking upright. Got some bananas, you handsome caveman you.

Amazing how you are unable to see the difference between dirt poor people risking their lives for some chance at a better life and a person that moves to thailand deciding to live as an expat. Typically expats dont sneak in, they have passports and travel modes and tend to run out of money while in thailand.

Liven up a bit. selling national resources to a foreign nation refers to a famous high profile case in which a former PM made a personal fortune doing. His actions were viewed by thais as a shameless selling out of national interests to a foreign nation. Ignorance is bliss til you get into a discussion without command of the facts.

the documented cases of dirt poor boat people risking their lives are intercepted by thai government and towed out to sea and left to die seems to be the correct thing thing to do according to you?

OK, prostitution exists in NYC... therefore the possibility of not having to travel to thailand to get laid exists.

[paz]

lived as a monk for 2 years ,trained for muay thai ,but no interest in the thai language did Sanskrit not interest you either, which Wat or retreat did you stay in as a monk??,there were a few of us Brits training in Muay Thai near Leong Nok Tha in isaanfrom 1964 onwards centuries before it became the thing to do for young aussies to do on their break year, after a bad case of lepto-spirosis in 66, I was in such bad shape I could not resume training, it would really interest me where you spent your 2years as amonk, I have spent a lot of time over the years , mostly in Leong nok tha, Warin, retreat periods in Ayuthya, but also in east Grinstead when staying in England and Konstanz when staying in Germany, when not pm me,as Imentioned before I only get on the net mornings

Why don't you write up on your stories and experiences, that would be a great reading.

[Nignoy]

I wanna be a sofa, but cant!! have too many metal bits!!