2 February election can be postponed, Constitutional Court rules: Thailand

[xminator]

As I see it the only way the caretaker government will postpone the elections is if the Democrat party says they will contest the delayed election. Otherwise it is right to get the vote over with as there is no real change other then more weeks of Suthep roaming the streets. He will most likely stay there after the snap election too, but at least Thailand will have a government that is allowed to make laws, and the option of another snap election that is actually contested by the Democrat party will be there again.

[Mackie]

Since when is the New York Times a paragon of truth? They have their own agenda and they are interested in only what benefits them. Thomas Fuller is as biased as it gets. He picked the side. So instead of feeling sorry for Thais you should better start feeling sorry for countless brainwashed and sanitised Americans who live in a corporate dictatorship where neither bankers nor politicians are accountable for their grievous crimes.

More Dishonesty About Thailand's Upheaval From the International New York Times Sunday, 15 December 2013 00:00 By Michael Pirsch, Truthout | Op-Ed

http://truth-out.org/opinion/item/20601-more-dishonesty-about-thailands-upheaval-from-the-international-new-york-times

Edited January 25, 2014 by Mackie

[Piichai]

As I see it the only way the caretaker government will postpone the elections is if the Democrat party says they will contest the delayed election. Otherwise it is right to get the vote over with as there is no real change other then more weeks of Suthep roaming the streets. He will most likely stay there after the snap election too, but at least Thailand will have a government that is allowed to make laws, and the option of another snap election that is actually contested by the Democrat party will be there again.

Thailand doesn't need more rice scams. Thailand needs reforms.

I'm quite sure the Democrat party would be willing to contest elections once reforms are made.

[pookiki]

I am sure there are many other instances in the world where a 'supreme' court authority ruling was regarded as legislative as opposed to interpretive. In most instances, it is the responsibility of the legislative to 'fix' the perceived over-reach of the judiciary with enacting new legislation. In Thailand, the court has made this difficult in 'limiting' the legislative branch's ability to amend the constitution. I found the CC decision on the Senate amendment quite confusing in that the major point of the decision was that it affected the existing checks and balances of power in making the senate a completely elected body. There were the procedural matters as well. On the other hand, I agreed with the CC on the ruling on the treaty issue in that the amendment clearly vested too much power with the Executive - and the procedural errors as well. With the election postponement, there does not appear to be language in the Constitution to support the decision nor does it resolve another crucial issue if the EC and caretaker government cannot agree on whether to postpone the election. At the very least, the CC should have ruled who is vested with the ultimate authority absent a mutual agreement between the two parties.

[whybother]

As I see it the only way the caretaker government will postpone the elections is if the Democrat party says they will contest the delayed election. Otherwise it is right to get the vote over with as there is no real change other then more weeks of Suthep roaming the streets. He will most likely stay there after the snap election too, but at least Thailand will have a government that is allowed to make laws, and the option of another snap election that is actually contested by the Democrat party will be there again.

The only way the Democrats will contest the elections and Suthep will get off the streets is if Yingluck resigns.

Sent from my phone ...

Edited January 25, 2014 by whybother

[Thait Spot]

PCAD claim that their protests are 'entirely peaceful' but the EC expect widespread violence on the day of the election. They can't both be right. Clearly the EC believes PCAD to be a terrorist organisation bent on subverting an election by violence.

Personally I think the predicted violence would be like Suthep's Big Bangkok Shutdown - a big flop. Roll on the election.

That depends on what other nasties turn up doesn't it?

Or are you getting bogged down in your own propaganda?

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[Fat Haggis]

As I see it the only way the caretaker government will postpone the elections is if the Democrat party says they will contest the delayed election. Otherwise it is right to get the vote over with as there is no real change other then more weeks of Suthep roaming the streets. He will most likely stay there after the snap election too, but at least Thailand will have a government that is allowed to make laws, and the option of another snap election that is actually contested by the Democrat party will be there again.

Thailand doesn't need more rice scams. Thailand needs reforms.

I'm quite sure the Democrat party would be willing to contest elections once reforms are made.

What Thailand needs is for both sides to stop the cock measuring contests as it's really solving nothing, and to sit down an engage in Dialogue, forget this amesty bill <deleted>, it's pretty clear that this will never get passed, it's an excuse, Suthep and Abhist should say okay, this is how we see a Thai future, sorry, but it doesn't include the Shiniwattras, however, they need to convince the rest of Thailand that he's a spent force, unless you can convince his ardent supporters, he's always going to be involved somewhere.

Okay reforms, these could take years to happen, can Thailand and the people opposed to Suthep accept this as being an option?

Put egotistical pride aside and start talking to each other!!

The democrats want reforms but have not even bothered putting out any form of Manifesto have they?

Meanwhile the farmers are still no closer to getting paid..

[Thait Spot]

Despite Khaosod's utterly gratuitous last sentence, the EC has indeed constitutional authority. The Constitution Court has affirmed it, and Khoasod - and the administration - was wrong. The Yingluck administration said that the EC did not have the authority. They also insisted that a delay was unconstitutional. The Constitution Court ruled that assumption was wrong. And the administration - and Khaosod - should get over it. The Yingluck administration - and Khaosod - have egg all over their face. How's that for a Khaosod headline ?

As the Constitution Court says that the EC and the administration - jointly - have the power to delay, it obviously means that the administration will simply keep on their path, dictate to the EC or ignore it completely, and forge ahead. A terrible decision - but it's Pheu Thai - one can't expect them to suddenly be cured of their inclination to make terrible decisions. So the election goes ahead. In Udon Thani it will be a roaring success, and likely will go smoothly through at least most of the North. But the bets stop there, and it's anyone's guess what's going to happen elsewhere. But even if the whole thing went without a hitch, the numbers add up to a quorum-less parliament before it even starts. There is no endgame for the administration. And in the interim, there is an unprecedented lack of consensus in the country, a great deal of unrest, and an unlawful caretaker-imposed emergency decree, as the Yingluck administration is determined to exit the stage by delivering a good, swift kick to the media.

The constitutional court and the elites are one and the same making this up as they go along, and so are you.

I beg to disagree. This outcome was blindingly obvious to anyone who bothered to consider the constitution.

Just the fact that any election date is announced by the sitting government, after agreeing with the electoral commission, was the great big clue.

Neither the government, caretaker or otherwise, or the electoral commission have the right to unilaterally decide on an acceptable election date.

The election date must be agreed by both parties.

The constitution court has merely reaffirmed this and sent it back to both the government and the EC to reach agreement.

That the caretaker government has continually refused to discuss setting a new election date, is definitely more questionable and, in effect, contrary to the constitution.

I actually think that the CC's decision is a prelude to further intervention. The CC has suggested that the caretaker government 'may' wish to start discussing an election delay with the EC, but the EC has been calling on YL to meet to discuss the matter for weeks, and has been ignored.

Yl has now been told that her objection to such a move, that she might be charged with failing to do her duty, has been removed, so she can cancel the election without any fear of prosecution.

If YL refuses to recognise that what the CC has actually done is to offer her a face-saving way out of the current impasse, then the next step will probably be for the CC to advise the EC that they have the power to unilaterally delay the election, citing the intransigence of the caretaker government as sufficient grounds to warrant such a move.

Very possible.

Equally the elections could turn into a gong show or collapse in violence and its time for the big khaki reset button

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[Gweiloman]

As I see it the only way the caretaker government will postpone the elections is if the Democrat party says they will contest the delayed election. Otherwise it is right to get the vote over with as there is no real change other then more weeks of Suthep roaming the streets. He will most likely stay there after the snap election too, but at least Thailand will have a government that is allowed to make laws, and the option of another snap election that is actually contested by the Democrat party will be there again.

The only way the Democrats will contest the elections and Suthep will get off the streets is if Yingluck resigns.

Sent from my phone ...

In which case, the country will go to the polls sooner or later, with or without the Dems participating. Guess who will be the winners and losers.

[JRSoul]

The Thai judicial system does not use the doctrine of stare decisis in its processes or in its substantive decision making, which means the constitutional court does not base its decisions on precedent, i.e., previous rulings it has made in like, same, similar cases in the past.

Adhering to the doctrine of precedent would require the court to categorize all cases before it based on its prior rulings, all the way back to year zero.

Stare decisis, or precedent, would mean the court would have to develop a consistent, coherent, body of law in cases of any given category. The body of law would be somewhat predictable and applicable to all cases that are like, same, similar, although it's recognized no one can really predict what a court will do in a given case.

By not adhering to the legal principle of precedent, the Thai legal system does not have to have a consistent and coherent body of law in matters of election law or in any other matters pertaining to any other law. Without precedent, the courts of the Thai legal system have freedom and latitude to roam the legal landscape in any given case or decision, unbound or unobligated by any constraints from prior rulings and unrestrained in the rulings it can make at any time.

Absent the legal doctrine of stare decisis, precedent, the court is free to make any determination in anything anytime regardless of what it may have ruled previously.

To summarise, it's not like the US system so can't possibly work well.

[JRSoul]

They should vote and anyone from the protest site be banned from voting next time.

Lol. Why do they care they don't like elections anyway.

Oh dear me. Given that identifying those involved would be almost impossible, and separating protesters from non-participating residents even harder, should they resort to a blanket geographical ban? All of Bangkok, and those pesky southerners too?

If only northern Thailand are allowed to vote, PTP may have a fair chance of being returned. Makes a bit of a mockery of all the pseudo-democratic BS your mates have been spouting though.

[bluie3]

It's just like I thought. They do have a plan for those seats in the southern areas - they will have bi-elections and eventually get the numbers so they can govern as the majority want.

Suthep will have a difficult time when he HAS to admit that all his 'dreams' have been squashed. He will need a therapist to help him work out his 'illness' - the vacuum of being irrelevant - it is a big black hole that he is falling head first into.

The farmers will get their money, the mega projects will create the jobs needed to keep the economy bouncing, the tourists will be able to enjoy the Land of Smiles, peace in the streets and schools and universities and work places.

It's like this long cold spell - it will soon be over and those who still have an itch about 'T S' will have to scratch themselves some other way - get a life to start with. Put 'T S' out of your minds and lives, things HAVE changed. Drop the 'S' and just concentrate on 'T' for Thailand as a whole and respect the voters rights. Say, 'NO' to becoming like Russia WAS, North Korea IS, and the millions of lives lost like in Cambodia and China. Sick Suthep needs to cool off in a prison where he belongs and they aren't trumped up charges that are against his wicked doings past and present.

[Publicus]

The Thai judicial system does not use the doctrine of stare decisis in its processes or in its substantive decision making, which means the constitutional court does not base its decisions on precedent, i.e., previous rulings it has made in like, same, similar cases in the past.

Adhering to the doctrine of precedent would require the court to categorize all cases before it based on its prior rulings, all the way back to year zero.

Stare decisis, or precedent, would mean the court would have to develop a consistent, coherent, body of law in cases of any given category. The body of law would be somewhat predictable and applicable to all cases that are like, same, similar, although it's recognized no one can really predict what a court will do in a given case.

By not adhering to the legal principle of precedent, the Thai legal system does not have to have a consistent and coherent body of law in matters of election law or in any other matters pertaining to any other law. Without precedent, the courts of the Thai legal system have freedom and latitude to roam the legal landscape in any given case or decision, unbound or unobligated by any constraints from prior rulings and unrestrained in the rulings it can make at any time.

Absent the legal doctrine of stare decisis, precedent, the court is free to make any determination in anything anytime regardless of what it may have ruled previously.

To summarise, it's not like the US system so can't possibly work well.

The people who want to speak for other people almost always get shot down.

Stare decisis is the legal system originating in medieval England and that is used in native English speaking countries or in countries where English is prominently used, most specifically, the UK, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, USA, Hong Kong, Singapore, Malaysia, South Africa, Pakistan, Cyprus.

Almost everyone at TVF is a native speaker of English so people here are - or should be - familiar with the system of common law, also called case law, which uses stare decisis, precedent, to significantly guide its legal judgements from the bench and/or in a verdict by a jury.

Stare decisis applies precedent to frame a pending legal decision made in common law, using the present fact patters and circumstance of the case as the basis of a modification or extension of historically established common law or existing codified law that is written by parliamentary bodies.

Thailand almost literally has the pre-stare decisis feudal system of law in which decisions of the courts are arbitrarily made in respect to the rights of the individual, in property law, unbiased court processes, human rights, crime rates, the severity of sentences and so on. Jurisprudence in Thailand is what the Thais have and accept working with, so who am I to complain. I simply point out the facts and the reality of it.

And then there is the separate matter of corruption.

It's relevant to note that Muslim law includes some common law principles to include some measure of stare decisis that Thai law does not have.

CIA World Factbook Field Listing of Legal Systems

[Piichai]

What Thailand needs is for both sides to stop the cock measuring contests as it's really solving nothing, and to sit down an engage in Dialogue, forget this amesty bill <deleted>, it's pretty clear that this will never get passed, it's an excuse,

This is Thailand; no one can be sure the Amnesty Bill won't be revived until the 180-day deadline passes. Trust Yingluck? Not even the farmers would do that now.

Suthep and Abhist should say okay, this is how we see a Thai future, sorry, but it doesn't include the Shiniwattras, however, they need to convince the rest of Thailand that he's a spent force, unless you can convince his ardent supporters, he's always going to be involved somewhere.

At the moment, the Shiniwattras seem to be doing a pretty good job of that on their own.

I don't know if the Shiniwattras need specifically to be banned from politics. There was a post on TV this morning that mentioned getting rid of the Party List, stopping the pass-down of seats, and getting rid of MP immunity among other things, which might go along way to getting the country on the right track.

Of course, there's still the problem of corruption to tackle.

At some point, Thailand *must* start enforcing their laws, and making those convicted suffer the consequences.

Okay reforms, these could take years to happen, can Thailand and the people opposed to Suthep accept this as being an option?

Put egotistical pride aside and start talking to each other!!

The democrats want reforms but have not even bothered putting out any form of Manifesto have they?

Meanwhile the farmers are still no closer to getting paid..

At some point Thailand will reform. Why not now?

As I recall, Suthep and the Democrats were quite happy to appear at the conference chaired by the military. Hard to blame them for passing on Yingluck's conference.

Although they could very well be working on one right now, I don't know that it should be up to Suthep or the Democrats to issue "The Manifesto." First Yingluck goes, then a council can be established to discuss reforms. Wouldn't have a problem with whoever wants to submit ideas to the council being able to do so.

But who should be in the be in the council. Would the unelected senators be a bad start?

I have mixed feelings about the farmers. Emotionally, I hate to see anyone suffer. Intellectually, as The Reds would have one believe that all the farmers voted for the Shins, the farmers are now experiencing the consequences of their actions. For some, it's an expensive lesson to learn, but that's how life is sometimes.

[Piichai]

The constitution says that elections may be postponed in the event of a national emergency.

By passing the decision back to the same 2 bodies - the EC and the caretaker government - it maintains the constitution.

By calling a state of emergency, the government may have shot itself in what little remains of its feet

Thank you for that!

[Publicus]

The constitution says that elections may be postponed in the event of a national emergency.

By passing the decision back to the same 2 bodies - the EC and the caretaker government - it maintains the constitution.

By calling a state of emergency, the government may have shot itself in what little remains of its feet

Thank you for that!

There are people here who are looking at the shadows on the wall instead of directly into the fire where Suthep stands and dances his mad dance.

[Mrgk]

And the administration - and Khaosod - should get over it. The Yingluck administration - and Khaosod - have egg all over their face. How's that for a Khaosod headline ?

In what way is being contradicted by the ludicrous Thai consitutional court a reason for embaressment? If anything, being a supporter of this often comically corrupt institution should be plenty of reason for feeling ashamed of oneself.

Edited January 26, 2014 by Mrgk

[Crushdepth]

And the administration - and Khaosod - should get over it. The Yingluck administration - and Khaosod - have egg all over their face. How's that for a Khaosod headline ?

In what way is being contradicted by the ludicrous Thai consitutional court a reason for embaressment? If anything, being a supporter of this often comically corrupt institution should be plenty of reason for feeling ashamed of oneself.

When was the last time Yingluck's legal team got it right?

[LevelHead]

Well :

The Thai Constitution Court said the election can be delayed "in some circumstances" but failed to give clear guidance on what all the circumstances are and if the present situation should warrant it.

In this instance they have basically said it can be delayed but we are not telling you all the reasons why and we are not telling you if the present situation is enough.

That they have not issued any guidance on the nature of all events that can cancel an election, and failed to give guidance on whether the present situation warrants cancelling the election they have in effect in peoples views laid a trap for PTP and Yingluck. If they cancel it or postpone it then the CC could rule that the reason was not correct (as they have not said what are all the reasons).

Given the lack of clear guidance on whether the present situation can warrant a postponement or cancellation there is nothing the caretaker government can do apart from continuing with the election as planned.

What is good to see today is that near 90% of the country appears fine and polling booths in those area's are open and people are being allowed to vote.

It appears to be only in area's where the Democrat Party are strong that the law is being broken, criminal activity is happening where people are being denied their right to vote by mobs using force.

In my opinion of course all of the above.

[rubl]

This is a reply to

casualbiker, on 24 Jan 2014 - 22:01, said:

" EC issues statement to Cabinet that SOE affects election and so it won't be fair and not in accordance with Constitution"

That's why you have a constitution court.. to allow ALL the organic laws to work together.. The laws governing the EC, the laws governing the ombudsman's office etc.. unless the constitution writers have access to a time machine.. and KNOW everything that will happen in the future,, it's how it is.

My response

The Constitution gave power to CC to rule without any legal basis? Based only on personal opinions, speculation, imagination, conjecture? Where is the principle of justice and evidence. In Thai's current legal system, judges can be impeached, but judges and Senators are appointing each other.

"EC issues statement to Cabinet that SOE affects election......" Sorry, I missed this one. Wonder if EC commissioners red the whole content of the SOE?

BTW, I do not against CC and all independent agencies. I have doubt on the way judges and officials conduct, investigate and rule on complaints. On ground level, except those oppositions of the government, people are losing faith and trust in these judges and official. The people's feeling of haplessness could create problems to the Country's well being.

Forgot to mention. I have been replying to many rebuttals and if possible - all. Some posters may think I have a full time job here. One already said that. BTW, I have ten more days for my vacation. I will continue to share my thoughts and will not be intimidated to stop. May be a little less frequent after ten more days.

Oh, please don't stop. As long as it's clear that you profess your thoughts rather than 'facts' that is.

[rubl]

Ok. This idiotic Elite serving Constitusion is about 8 years old and was a BS when it was written.

How about lowering the quroum for the Parliment to sit?

What is wrong with 85 percent of seat filled for it to function... or less.

Why can 7-8 provinces not sending MP's hold the whole country to hostage?

Or was this put in place to make sure that exactly this could happen if the Elites needed to scupper parliament?

Instead of flaming, please put in writing why the Parliament could not sit with 20 mps missing? 20 MP's I might add, that chose not to contest and chose to obstruct elections.

We have seen the fudge today and this is because they are now hedging. Maybe believe Suthep does not have the numbers to pull off his coup and are hoping to save their skins so they can come back and re-try this coup again later.

The little weasel Akanat was saying yesterday the really need the donations as some business backers not putting money in as they are afraid they PDRC cannot win. That from the horses mouth!!!

Steady on the flames please.

"This idiotic Elite serving Constitusion is about 8 years old and was a BS when it was written."

Most of it was written in 1997.

After reading publicus' post I wonder why people want to return to the 1997 consitution.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/699136-2-february-election-can-be-postponed-constitutional-court-rules-thailand/page-6#entry7339749

[icommunity]

This is a reply to

casualbiker, on 24 Jan 2014 - 22:01, said:

" EC issues statement to Cabinet that SOE affects election and so it won't be fair and not in accordance with Constitution"

That's why you have a constitution court.. to allow ALL the organic laws to work together.. The laws governing the EC, the laws governing the ombudsman's office etc.. unless the constitution writers have access to a time machine.. and KNOW everything that will happen in the future,, it's how it is.

My response

The Constitution gave power to CC to rule without any legal basis? Based only on personal opinions, speculation, imagination, conjecture? Where is the principle of justice and evidence. In Thai's current legal system, judges can be impeached, but judges and Senators are appointing each other.

"EC issues statement to Cabinet that SOE affects election......" Sorry, I missed this one. Wonder if EC commissioners red the whole content of the SOE?

BTW, I do not against CC and all independent agencies. I have doubt on the way judges and officials conduct, investigate and rule on complaints. On ground level, except those oppositions of the government, people are losing faith and trust in these judges and official. The people's feeling of haplessness could create problems to the Country's well being.

Forgot to mention. I have been replying to many rebuttals and if possible - all. Some posters may think I have a full time job here. One already said that. BTW, I have ten more days for my vacation. I will continue to share my thoughts and will not be intimidated to stop. May be a little less frequent after ten more days.

Oh, please don't stop. As long as it's clear that you profess your thoughts rather than 'facts' that is.

I think this the best you can argue.

[tsnyder]

Ok. This idiotic Elite serving Constitusion is about 8 years old and was a BS when it was written.

"This idiotic Elite serving Constitusion is about 8 years old and was a BS when it was written."

Most of it was written in 1997.

After reading publicus' post I wonder why people want to return to the 1997 consitution.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/699136-2-february-election-can-be-postponed-constitutional-court-rules-thailand/page-6#entry7339749

He certainly does make it sound icky.

Additionally, going back to it would not change any of the issues that pipkins has with current constitution.

Is there another one available besides the 1997 or the 2007 versions that would get pipkins want he wants?

[tsnyder]

And the administration - and Khaosod - should get over it. The Yingluck administration - and Khaosod - have egg all over their face. How's that for a Khaosod headline ?

In what way is being contradicted by the ludicrous Thai consitutional court a reason for embaressment? If anything, being a supporter of this often comically corrupt institution should be plenty of reason for feeling ashamed of oneself.

When was the last time Yingluck's legal team got it right?

Difficult to believe they got it right when they prepared her asset declaration upon taking office.

They reported she had 541 million baht in assests in 2011, yet in just 2006, Yingluck netted about 985 million baht in a single stock transaction when Shin Corp. was sold adding to her already formidable assets.

Did she really blow though half a billion baht in assets in just 5 years or did her legal time not get it right.

https://www.tvs.vn/EN/News.aspx?LangId=2&Id=563&Menu=134

http://www2.irrawaddy.org/article.php?art_id=22163