Unprofessional and unskilled English Teacher's do you feel guilty?

[wilcopops]

wow64, since there are many mistakes in your post, I wouldn't criticize others on their ability.

Secondly your argument falls flat since teaching EFL in Thailand isn't related to any subject most people would be teaching in their native countries.

Just like all careers everyone has to start somewhere. Being dedicated and effective do not relate direclty to qualifications.

Many of the issues with student progress has little to do with the teachers and more to do with the system.

Do you really think that children are going to be fluent in a foreign language studying 3-4 hours a week in classes of 50+?

A teacher is usually only as effective as the curriculum they are forced to teach. Since most directors/ principals know nothing of how students learn languages or the most effective ways to teach a foreign language the programs are designed to fail.

Even the greatest teacher in the world still has limited sucess in most Thai institutions.

Teaching for 10 years in Thailand I was never given a curriculum to teach. I always made my own.

QED!

[wilcopops]

All you guys arguing why you are a better teacher then someone else. To be honest all of you English teachers must be crap judging by the level if English in this country.

My little one goes to a private school and even the ESL teachers there are crap.

Most of you I think do it either for the visa or because you can't get any other work. 99% of you should not be teachers. Ask yourself why you were not teaching when back home?? If you didn't teach in your home country you should not be teaching here.

I think you need to put "crap" into some kind of context and then let us know your yardstick as it relates to language education in Thailand and the globally. Whewras I'm not one for citations on a chat forum, it would be nice to see some indication of your sources for this.

[duanebigsby]

wow64, since there are many mistakes in your post, I wouldn't criticize others on their ability.

Secondly your argument falls flat since teaching EFL in Thailand isn't related to any subject most people would be teaching in their native countries.

Just like all careers everyone has to start somewhere. Being dedicated and effective do not relate direclty to qualifications.

Many of the issues with student progress has little to do with the teachers and more to do with the system.

Do you really think that children are going to be fluent in a foreign language studying 3-4 hours a week in classes of 50+?

A teacher is usually only as effective as the curriculum they are forced to teach. Since most directors/ principals know nothing of how students learn languages or the most effective ways to teach a foreign language the programs are designed to fail.

Even the greatest teacher in the world still has limited sucess in most Thai institutions.

Haha am I a teacher.. Never claimed to be.. I agree I am the last person in the world to teach ESL and so are the majority of teachers here.

So you were never a teacher and woke up in thailand and decided to teach.. Good for you champ... God help the students. This is the whole reason why none of your students have learnt anything. This is not a shot at you its just the students parents pay good money for an education.. Back in your home country if you paid for you kid to learn thai and Joe Thai showed up with no previous teaching experience.. Would you be happy?

Sent from my c64

You didn't listen to a bloody word zeichen said. It is the system which is the biggest problem with Thailand learning English

I don't understand why you, and so many others on TVF, have this hatred for English teachers.

The requirement to teach English here is, university educated ,native English speakers.

Many have never taught and are learning on the job. Some become fantastic teachers, others are crap and leave. Many are qualified teachers who are crap. The same as any school in the West. There are good and bad teachers.

But ultimately, only 2-3 hours of English a week in classrooms of 50+ kids is an uphill struggle.

[duanebigsby]

All you guys arguing why you are a better teacher then someone else. To be honest all of you English teachers must be crap judging by the level if English in this country.

My little one goes to a private school and even the ESL teachers there are crap.

Most of you I think do it either for the visa or because you can't get any other work. 99% of you should not be teachers. Ask yourself why you were not teaching when back home?? If you didn't teach in your home country you should not be teaching here.

I think you need to put "crap" into some kind of context and then let us know your yardstick as it relates to language education in Thailand and the globally. Whewras I'm not one for citations on a chat forum, it would be nice to see some indication of your sources for this.

You and I seldom agree, but you are spot on. In schools that have good English programs, progress is being made. elsewhere, the system is lacking.

[zeichen]

"So you were never a teacher and woke up in thailand and decided to teach.. Good for you champ... God help the students. This is the whole reason why none of your students have learnt anything"

Actually I am certified as an Art and a Science teacher. I have a Masters degree and over 15 years experience, 12 of which are in Asia teaching EFL as well as subjects at private and International schools.

It is clear that you are upset but actually know nothing about teaching or what it takes to make a good EFL teacher.

"Teaching for 10 years in Thailand I was never given a curriculum to teach. I always made my own."

If you were teaching at Government schools they do actually have a curriculum. If you follow it or not is your problem. Schools usually don't have resources or material but what needs to be covered is on the MOE website.

The fact that you had to create your own curriculum, material and resources without proper training is a huge problem. As I stated isn't the teacher's duty though. If you have a background in TESOL or linguistics and curriculum development, then you might be ok, but overall most teachers don't have the skill set to do that.

I too have published many textbooks and have been DOS at several schools, but fortunately I wasn't teaching a full load and doing that.

[wilcopops]

"So you were never a teacher and woke up in thailand and decided to teach.. Good for you champ... God help the students. This is the whole reason why none of your students have learnt anything"

Actually I am certified as an Art and a Science teacher. I have a Masters degree and over 15 years experience, 12 of which are in Asia teaching EFL as well as subjects at private and International schools.

It is clear that you are upset but actually know nothing about teaching or what it takes to make a good EFL teacher.

"Teaching for 10 years in Thailand I was never given a curriculum to teach. I always made my own."

If you were teaching at Government schools they do actually have a curriculum. If you follow it or not is your problem. Schools usually don't have resources or material but what needs to be covered is on the MOE website.

The fact that you had to create your own curriculum, material and resources without proper training is a huge problem. As I stated isn't the teacher's duty though. If you have a background in TESOL or linguistics and curriculum development, then you might be ok, but overall most teachers don't have the skill set to do that.

I too have published many textbooks and have been DOS at several schools, but fortunately I wasn't teaching a full load and doing that.

I think it is becoming evident that as in all educational establishments in ALL countries there are good and bad teachers........I know where my money is going

[wilcopops]

What is the difference between them TEFL guys and a professional English teacher?

Who cares, the teachers only get paid peanuts. At least you know in advance that they're a mixed bunch.

You always have the option of not whining and keeping the money in your pocket.

Thailand's educational industry is not about to change in the near future, as the only way to attract better Western teachers is to pay high salaries like they do in Thailand's small handful of accredited international schools.

That's not true on various levels - the salaries offered are on a par wit many international destinations and Thailand is a to more popular than some. (the salaries are much higher than native Thai teachers)

TEFL - does not aim itself exclusively at schools - there is a tendency for people to think of this as the only aspect, hen intact it is only part of the picture.The main problem with EL eduction in Thailand is not the teachers - (everyone's an expert and blames the teachers - just like they blame the drivers), the problem is the structure of education in Thailand and the current regulations relating to foreign teachers and the establishment of private language schools.

at present it is incredibly hard for a foreigner to set up a language school - partly due to the regs surrounding employing foreigners and the ratio of foreigners to Thais in a business and then there is the work permit situation which apt from being incredibly bureaucratic is job and location specific, which means eve with a work permit teachers are often working in breach of their restrictions.

it wouldn't take a lot for the government to change the regulations covering the establishment of private schools - we've seen how they change immigration regulations on little more than a whim...and this would make a huge difference to EL education in Thailand.

At least 100k per month.

From a non TEFLr or teacher.

read my earlier comments

[JLCrab]

Just to note that that in the USA, a university/college academic department chair would almost always be a tenured (i.e. lifetime) position as the chair is responsible for advising on the hiring of tenure-track professor positions. One of the few ways tenure can be canceled is through moral turpitude.

[thailiketoo]

What is the difference between them TEFL guys and a professional English teacher?

If you don't know, how do you expect to make an intelligent comment on this thread?

So you don't know the answer? I'm a teacher why would I ask a question I didn't know the answer to? Of course I know. That's what teachers do. Ask questions they know the answers to.

I'll try again. What is the difference between them TEFL guys and a professional English teacher? If you get it right I'll tell you.

In short you aren't asking the right question - it is rendered impotent by your own assumptions that the 2 are different.

Hours of training as opposed to years. Motivation and 4 to 6 years training as opposed to a few weeks or hours. Cost of commitment, a few dollars as opposed to thousands over years.

I took courses over years. I did student teaching after that. For many years teaching was my life as opposed to a few hours for an fast food worker turned English expert.

Student loans that are paid back over the course of years all go to spell commitment as opposed to a part time job to stay with a GF in Thailand.

I don't call you names. I try and answer your questions. Did you learn in 6 weeks what I did in 6 years?

Edited June 4, 2014 by thailiketoo

[boomerangutang]

All you guys arguing why you are a better teacher then someone else. To be honest all of you English teachers must be crap judging by the level if English in this country.

My little one goes to a private school and even the ESL teachers there are crap.

Most of you I think do it either for the visa or because you can't get any other work. 99% of you should not be teachers. Ask yourself why you were not teaching when back home?? If you didn't teach in your home country you should not be teaching here.

Haha am I a teacher.. Never claimed to be.. I agree I am the last person in the world to teach ESL and so are the majority of teachers here.

So you were never a teacher and woke up in thailand and decided to teach.. Good for you champ... God help the students. This is the whole reason why none of your students have learnt anything. This is not a shot at you its just the students parents pay good money for an education.. Back in your home country if you paid for you kid to learn thai and Joe Thai showed up with no previous teaching experience.. Would you be happy?

If the students are stuck at ground zero, that says more about the students than the teacher. In 33 years coming to Thailand, the 3 most fluent English-speakers I've met (who have never been overseas) are; a Thai who learned it from BBC, 2 Burmese, one of whom is also a hill triber who never went to school. The other Burmese speaks and understands English as well as most native English-speakers, including idioms, slang and nuances. He never formally studied English. Of dozens of Thais who teach English, none come close to the fluency of those three.

I think wow64 is slinging mud, in the hopes of eliciting responses. Well, it worked, with me anyway. But he's slinging mud at mostly the wrong people. To me, the worst English teachers fall in to 2 categories:

>>> Thais who think they have to focus almost exclusively on grammar, and wind up spouting convoluted sintax and weird never-used sentence structure and completely archaic words and twisted word structure. To put it simply: They're teaching an error-riven overly-convoluted type of semi-English. They're the type of scholar who write English study books with at least one glaring mistake on each page. I've seen a number of those types of books, each with Thai names as authors.

>>> Farang who have very thick accents, plus a tentative handle on English. Some of whom are native English speakers, but mostly they're from other European countries. Thais who hire, even at the most prestigious Thai U's, can't tell if a Romanian or a Pollock speaks better English than an American. The hirers see credentials, they see a farang face (particularly if it's a handsome or pretty face), and that's what counts the most, from a Thai hirer's perspective.

Edited June 4, 2014 by boomerangutang

[anthobkk]

I'm french, I've a master degree in finance, I've been offered some job to teach french in Thailand...but actually I can't do it.

Some people think they can be teacher only because it's their native language but they are wrong. I don't even know how to teach french grammer since i don't even understand the "grammar rules" by myslef.

So I would feel guilty to be a teacher here if I'm not a real teacher back home.

My sister is an english teacher, her english is perfect but she failed teaching exam twice because she was not good enough to be able to teach english to french kids..

[inutil]

wow64, since there are many mistakes in your post, I wouldn't criticize others on their ability.

Secondly your argument falls flat since teaching EFL in Thailand isn't related to any subject most people would be teaching in their native countries.

Just like all careers everyone has to start somewhere. Being dedicated and effective do not relate direclty to qualifications.

Many of the issues with student progress has little to do with the teachers and more to do with the system.

Do you really think that children are going to be fluent in a foreign language studying 3-4 hours a week in classes of 50+?

A teacher is usually only as effective as the curriculum they are forced to teach. Since most directors/ principals know nothing of how students learn languages or the most effective ways to teach a foreign language the programs are designed to fail.

Even the greatest teacher in the world still has limited sucess in most Thai institutions.

Haha am I a teacher.. Never claimed to be.. I agree I am the last person in the world to teach ESL and so are the majority of teachers here.

So you were never a teacher and woke up in thailand and decided to teach.. Good for you champ... God help the students. This is the whole reason why none of your students have learnt anything. This is not a shot at you its just the students parents pay good money for an education.. Back in your home country if you paid for you kid to learn thai and Joe Thai showed up with no previous teaching experience.. Would you be happy?

Sent from my c64

Troll thee not!

[wow64]

All you guys arguing why you are a better teacher then someone else. To be honest all of you English teachers must be crap judging by the level if English in this country.

My little one goes to a private school and even the ESL teachers there are crap.

Most of you I think do it either for the visa or because you can't get any other work. 99% of you should not be teachers. Ask yourself why you were not teaching when back home?? If you didn't teach in your home country you should not be teaching here.

I think you need to put "crap" into some kind of context and then let us know your yardstick as it relates to language education in Thailand and the globally. Whewras I'm not one for citations on a chat forum, it would be nice to see some indication of your sources for this.

My crap yardstick is teachers that have a degree in something totally different to teaching and have just landed in Thailand with no teaching experience... I know many of them. My friends even say the kids are not learning a thing. How can they?

I went to school here for 1.5 years in Bangkok when I was 16.. That was a good school and the teachers were good teachers. Not like some that of have been exposed too.

Now I am seeing it from the other side that I have a child and I am paying for it. Went a school meeting on Sunday and in the class room were spelling mistakes all over the board.. I am no expert and don't claim to be.

Not a troll just telling it like it is.. I know its a raw nerve with many as they are teachers.... And doing just what I am saying.

If you were a teacher in your home country and you are now teaching here...thats awesome..

Sent from my c64

Edited June 4, 2014 by wow64

[thailiketoo]

All you guys arguing why you are a better teacher then someone else. To be honest all of you English teachers must be crap judging by the level if English in this country.

My little one goes to a private school and even the ESL teachers there are crap.

Most of you I think do it either for the visa or because you can't get any other work. 99% of you should not be teachers. Ask yourself why you were not teaching when back home?? If you didn't teach in your home country you should not be teaching here.

I think you need to put "crap" into some kind of context and then let us know your yardstick as it relates to language education in Thailand and the globally. Whewras I'm not one for citations on a chat forum, it would be nice to see some indication of your sources for this.

My crap yardstick is teachers that have a degree in something totally different to teaching and have just landed in Thailand with no teaching experience... I know many of them. My friends even say the kids are not learning a thing. How can they?

I went to school here for 1.5 years in Bangkok when I was 16.. That was a good school and the teachers were good teachers. Not like some that of have been exposed too.

Now I am seeing it from the other side that I have a child and I am paying for it. Went a school meeting on Sunday and in the class room were spelling mistakes all over the board.. I am no expert and don't claim to be.

Not a troll just telling it like it is.. I know its a raw nerve with many as they are teachers.... And doing just what I am saying.

If you were a teacher in your home country and you are now teaching here...thats awesome..

Sent from my c64

Good luck in getting wilcopops to list any of his academic accomplishments backing up his opinions. He sounds to me like a young man with no formal training in the field of education and with no experience.

[benalibina]

All you guys arguing why you are a better teacher then someone else. To be honest all of you English teachers must be crap judging by the level if English in this country.

My little one goes to a private school and even the ESL teachers there are crap.

Most of you I think do it either for the visa or because you can't get any other work. 99% of you should not be teachers. Ask yourself why you were not teaching when back home?? If you didn't teach in your home country you should not be teaching here.

I think you need to put "crap" into some kind of context and then let us know your yardstick as it relates to language education in Thailand and the globally. Whewras I'm not one for citations on a chat forum, it would be nice to see some indication of your sources for this.

My crap yardstick is teachers that have a degree in something totally different to teaching and have just landed in Thailand with no teaching experience... I know many of them. My friends even say the kids are not learning a thing. How can they?

I went to school here for 1.5 years in Bangkok when I was 16.. That was a good school and the teachers were good teachers. Not like some that of have been exposed too.

Now I am seeing it from the other side that I have a child and I am paying for it. Went a school meeting on Sunday and in the class room were spelling mistakes all over the board.. I am no expert and don't claim to be.

Not a troll just telling it like it is.. I know its a raw nerve with many as they are teachers.... And doing just what I am saying.

If you were a teacher in your home country and you are now teaching here...thats awesome..

Sent from my c64

Good luck in getting wilcopops to list any of his academic accomplishments backing up his opinions. He sounds to me like a young man with no formal training in the field of education and with no experience.

Be the bigger man and guide him through his career as you are so experienced.

[ravip]

I can assure you that to teach English, you DON'T need a native English teacher.

There are countries where there are perfect English teachers

(I am not specifically referring to TH)

But insisting that you need a native English teacher to teach English is absolute Bull.

(or for that matter ANY language)

[wilcopops]

I'm french, I've a master degree in finance, I've been offered some job to teach french in Thailand...but actually I can't do it.

Some people think they can be teacher only because it's their native language but they are wrong. I don't even know how to teach french grammer since i don't even understand the "grammar rules" by myslef.

So I would feel guilty to be a teacher here if I'm not a real teacher back home.

My sister is an english teacher, her english is perfect but she failed teaching exam twice because she was not good enough to be able to teach english to french kids..

All this means is that you don't understand what TEFL is.......

[wilcopops]

I can assure you that to teach English, you DON'T need a native English teacher.

There are countries where there are perfect English teachers

(I am not specifically referring to TH)

But insisting that you need a native English teacher to teach English is absolute Bull.

(or for that matter ANY language)

True but this also means you don't understand what TEFL entails.

[wilcopops]

All you guys arguing why you are a better teacher then someone else. To be honest all of you English teachers must be crap judging by the level if English in this country.

My little one goes to a private school and even the ESL teachers there are crap.

Most of you I think do it either for the visa or because you can't get any other work. 99% of you should not be teachers. Ask yourself why you were not teaching when back home?? If you didn't teach in your home country you should not be teaching here.

I think you need to put "crap" into some kind of context and then let us know your yardstick as it relates to language education in Thailand and the globally. Whewras I'm not one for citations on a chat forum, it would be nice to see some indication of your sources for this.

My crap yardstick is teachers that have a degree in something totally different to teaching and have just landed in Thailand with no teaching experience... I know many of them. My friends even say the kids are not learning a thing. How can they?

I went to school here for 1.5 years in Bangkok when I was 16.. That was a good school and the teachers were good teachers. Not like some that of have been exposed too.

Now I am seeing it from the other side that I have a child and I am paying for it. Went a school meeting on Sunday and in the class room were spelling mistakes all over the board.. I am no expert and don't claim to be.

Not a troll just telling it like it is.. I know its a raw nerve with many as they are teachers.... And doing just what I am saying.

If you were a teacher in your home country and you are now teaching here...thats awesome..

Sent from my c64

Yes - you creation;ly aren't an expert, but you don't need to be - All this tells me is like several other posters, you don't know what TEFL is.

[wilcopops]

Now we’ve got down to schoolboy arguing techniques....no relevance to the argument just a load of gainsaying.

As for Thai teachers’ wages, check my initial comments above...they explain the position quite clearly and accurately.

There does however seem to be a lot of ignorance s to what TEFL actually is........

For example - I’m surprised that the question “What is the difference between them TEFL guys and a professional English teacher? “ because it seems to confirm my suspicions that there are a lot of people on this thread who really don’t know the first thing about education, teaching English and “TEFL”

It’s one of those questions that displays ignorance over curiosity....like

“If you go to the edge of the world will you fall off?”

i think someone even used the term “TEFL guy”

I’m assuming we can all come to some kind of consensus on the meaning of “guy” person (usually male) informal.

How about “professional”?

How’s about these 2 ideas?

• a person engaged in a specified activity, especially a sport, as a main paid occupation rather than as a pastime.

• a person competent or skilled in a particular activity

Teacher.

Someone who.........

· imparts knowledge to or instructs (someone) as to how to do something

· gives information about or instruction in (e.g. - a subject or skill

· causes (someone) to learn or understand something by example or experience.

Teaching like being a plumber or doctor is an occupation and secondary to that is the subject taught.... e.g. - a doctor of bio-chemistry may be highly proficient at his trade but completely unable to teach.

English

OK - English in this context i think means the study of “the language “ - of course there are in fact 2 main ways we study English (as I pointed out before).....

First is the language - this can go from basic learning as a native speaker from childhood or learning as a SECOND or OTHR language by students of ALL LEVELS and it can then be taken a step further in terms of an in depth study of the Language usually at university level takes on many forms including linguistics, etymology and the history of language in general. These studies of language don’t just apply to English but all languages.

The second form of English studied is that of literature - in fact most people who studied English at University will in fact primarily have studied English literature and its meanings and relation to culture.

So what do we mean by TEFL and English teacher actually is a non-question as they may or may not be one and the same. The questioner is making a false distinction with implications based on a lack of knowledge of either TEFL or teaching. You could ask what is the difference between a truck driver and a traffic warden?

TEFL stands for the Teaching of English as a Foreign Language. There are several other related acronyms......TESOL, ESL, EFL etc. ...... There are subtle differences between them but in truth the significance is irrelevant to my point. One that has a significant difference is ELT - English Language Teaching - which is an umbrella term for ALL English Language teaching.... this includes TEFL but as we shall see TEFL itself has implications that indicate a particular kind of teaching.

So what is TEFL and how did it come about?

How did you learn your NATIVE tongue? How were you taught a foreign language? - Most UK citizens were taught French at school - what’s your French like now?

The English language teaching tradition has been subject to tremendous change, especially throughout the twentieth century.

Effectively, up to the 20^th century English was taught under the principles of a classical education. The classics were supposed to be the key to enlightenment and the root of all good studies including English (Many academic papers were written in Latin as for centuries this was the Lingua Franca for international communication) - at least in the western world.... (a common European Language)

Then primary importance was given to grammatical rules, syntactic structures, etc. ..... As English language was viewed in the same way as the classical languages, rules, conjugations and parts of speech were the cornerstones and based largely on Latin.

Foreign languages too were taught on this basis - with rote memorisation of vocabulary and translation of literary texts. Scant attention was given to actually speaking a language, and as Latin and Geek were the primary “foreign” languages taught there was little use for “live” conversation.

This system of language teaching developed into the Grammar Translation Method. Many of us experienced this in French or German lessons at school and for the most part they will probably agree that it helped little in their ability to speak French or German.

Virtually every English student has had a French lesson yet the overall standard of French in the UK is appalling.. ...In my youth I trained as a French teacher, but I wouldn’t teach it now as I feel my French is simply not good enough.

“Many of the problems we have in the classroom today with grammar try to undo age old grammatical myths which were caused by the imposition of a Latin style grammar on the Anglo-Saxon English language.” “and yet we still hear people tell us that a sentence should not end in a preposition.” - Phil Quirke

At this point we need to turn to the French....

Francois Gouin....and Charles Berlitz

Whilst struggling for sometime with no success to learn German using traditional methods, Guoin noticed how his nephew’s language - French - and leapt on in strides - he than formulated and adapted new ideas on how we learn language. He came up with the “series Method” - which focussed on speaking and linked relevant sentences , clauses and phrases together.....”I pick up a book ...I read the book....etc.”

Using observations form scientists a century earlier Guoin was fundamentally changing how we perceived language teaching and subsequently taught language.

This was taken a step further by Charles Berlitz. - the “Direct Method ........

“The basic tenet of Berlitz's method was that second language learning is similar to first language learning. In this light, there should be lots of oral interaction, spontaneous use of the language, no translation, and little if any analysis of grammatical rules and syntactic structures. In short, the principles of the Direct Method were as follows:”

• CLASSROOM INSTRUCTION WAS CONDUCTED IN TARGET LANGUAGE

• There was an inductive approach to grammar

• Only everyday vocabulary was taught

• Concrete vocabulary was taught through pictures and objects, while abstract vocabulary was taught by association of ideas”

Berlitz are still a massive brand name in TEFL, but not tied to ay archaic systems and have contracts with major manufactures in Thailand.

This system though popular proved somewhat unwieldy but lead in turn to the ......

The Audiolingual Method

Originally developed by the US army in WW2 to meet the need for communication with both allies and enemies a quick and efficient way of learning was sought. - This method added the strength psychological and language analytical theory components on how we learn languages.

“The following points sum up the characteristics of the method:

• Dependence on mimicry and memorisation of set phrases

• Teaching structural patterns by means of repetitive drills (??Repetitio est mater studiorum??)[ = CLASSICS!!]

• No grammatical explanation

• Learning vocabulary in context

• Use of tapes and visual aids

• Focus on pronunciation

• Immediate reinforcement of correct responses”

It fell out of favour by the 1960s as subsequent research showed the ineffectiveness of drilling and memorisation so heavily relied on with this system.

...and very importantly...

“.......... Downgrading the role of context and world knowledge in language learning. After all, it was discovered that language was not acquired through a process of habit formation and errors were not necessarily bad or pernicious.” - DT

Thanks largely to Chomsky there was a revolution in linguistics in the 70s that saw the rise of “Designer Methods” of language teaching, all coming from the new linguistics and the advances in psychological knowledge about how we acquire language. The main criticism here was they tended to characterise a one solution for everyone approach. Many of these systems seem a bit “cranky” or off the wall by today’s standards.

The next step ... emphasised the importance of style awareness and strategy development in ensuring mastery of a foreign language.

Here is an example of a list of the "Ten Commandments" for good language learning (taken from Brown, H. D. 2000):

Teacher's Version Learner's Version

1 Lower inhibitions Fear not!

2 Encourage risk-taking Dive in

3 Build self-confidence Believe in yourself

4 Develop intrinsic motivation Seize the day

5 Engage in cooperative learning Love thy neighbour

6 Use right-brain processes Get the BIG picture

7 Promote ambiguity tolerance Cope with the chaos

8 Practice intuition Go with your hunches

9 Process error feedback Make mistakes work FOR you

10 Set personal goals Set your own goals

As you can see far from getting your “apostrophes right” or knowing “who” from “whom”, this is about getting the students in a frame of mind to learn.

The teacher here is seen as FACILITATOR rather than INSTRUCTOR

The 1980s saw the solidification of ideas and theories on Language learning into concrete and proven methods thatconcentrated on student interaction, real life situations and values, and authentic materials. Students were seen as individuals - All those of you trying to set up generalisations and stereotypical examples take note -

So TEFL has become an acronym that symbolises a TYPE of teaching - or rather language learning - that is quite different for that which most of us experienced at school - it is deeply based on the psychology of how we learn a language. TEFL has built upon the learner’s needs, not the teacher. .... and I would say that many of those writing on this thread would not recognise the methods or even some of the physical aspects of a TEFL classroom as they are so completely different from any language learning they experienced back at school. Materials, methods etc. have all been stood on their head. The students too Thai or otherwise find TEFL a really new and different to anything they have experienced before.

The result of all this development of our understanding of how language is acquired and can be taught has resulted in a large “export” industry. All around the world English has become the lingua franca for so many things; business, technology and even diplomacy.....a misconception by many on this thread seems to be that it is primarily taught to youngsters in schools - this is a fallacy - TEFL customers are not just school kids; universities, adults in business all take time to study. For a company to achieve its ISO certification it must show relevant EL courses and a competence of its staff to communicate internationally, doctors have to show competence in English as the vast majority of all medical research is presented in English...air traffic control English, maritime communication English the list goes on and training is needed. Furthermore this training is not just a one-off thing, it continues throughout a person’s career, as promotion usually requires an internationally recognised certificate. IELTS, Cambridge, TOEFL to name but a few.

TEFL - I suppose the end result and most distinctive characteristic of TEFL to the casual observer would be that classes are caries out almost exclusively in the TARGET LANGAUGE - in this case English - hence the preference for a Native Speaker.

So what is a “TEFL guy”? I’d suggest it is someone who understands these methods and carries them out. I’m sure to varying degrees just as all of us can remember having a crap teacher at school - regardless of subject - some never seemed to hit the spot

Qualifications and training? - well most have degrees - which indicates a certain academic/cognitive ability...... virtually all have a TEFL or TESOL cert - many have Diplomas, post-grad degrees, MAs or even PhDs in TEFL /TESOL or related subjects - like any subject you can take it as far as you want.

And........ What is a teacher - I guess the definition above will do - A general description would perhaps be that a teacher may work at an educational establishment of some kind and will usually - but not always have a specialist subject - TEFL is a specialist subject. Many teachers employed or trained in the west won’t be able to “TEFL” - they won’t be familiar with the methodology. So a “TEFL guy” would be included in that.

An English teacher? - Normally that would be someone who teaches English Language or Literature at an English speaking school - i.e. in a Native English Language environment. If they wanted to teach English as a foreign Language, like all the others, they could take a TEFL course, but they would most likely find like most others, they are starting from scratch.

As for the initial question the words of Brown about the development of our knowledge of language teaching and learning seem appropriate........

"Our research miscarriages are fewer as we have collectively learned how to conceive the right questions".

With thanks to Dimitrios Thanasoulas

[thailiketoo]

I think you need to put "crap" into some kind of context and then let us know your yardstick as it relates to language education in Thailand and the globally. Whewras I'm not one for citations on a chat forum, it would be nice to see some indication of your sources for this.

My crap yardstick is teachers that have a degree in something totally different to teaching and have just landed in Thailand with no teaching experience... I know many of them. My friends even say the kids are not learning a thing. How can they?

I went to school here for 1.5 years in Bangkok when I was 16.. That was a good school and the teachers were good teachers. Not like some that of have been exposed too.

Now I am seeing it from the other side that I have a child and I am paying for it. Went a school meeting on Sunday and in the class room were spelling mistakes all over the board.. I am no expert and don't claim to be.

Not a troll just telling it like it is.. I know its a raw nerve with many as they are teachers.... And doing just what I am saying.

If you were a teacher in your home country and you are now teaching here...thats awesome..

Sent from my c64

Good luck in getting wilcopops to list any of his academic accomplishments backing up his opinions. He sounds to me like a young man with no formal training in the field of education and with no experience.

Be the bigger man and guide him through his career as you are so experienced.

I would try but I do get paid for teaching and I don't think he has any money. It takes 4 to 6 years for a basic teaching degree and add a couple of years for a masters and some student teaching. It is laughable to expect someone can put that into a TEFL course for a few thousand bucks in a few weeks. If a TEFL course was a replacement for a degree every school would have switched years ago. There is a reason the good international schools require a degree and teaching certificate.

[thailiketoo]

Now we’ve got down to schoolboy arguing techniques....no relevance to the argument just a load of gainsaying.

As for Thai teachers’ wages, check my initial comments above...they explain the position quite clearly and accurately.

There does however seem to be a lot of ignorance s to what TEFL actually is........

For example - I’m surprised that the question “What is the difference between them TEFL guys and a professional English teacher? “ because it seems to confirm my suspicions that there are a lot of people on this thread who really don’t know the first thing about education, teaching English and “TEFL”

It’s one of those questions that displays ignorance over curiosity....like

“If you go to the edge of the world will you fall off?”

i think someone even used the term “TEFL guy”

I’m assuming we can all come to some kind of consensus on the meaning of “guy” person (usually male) informal.

How about “professional”?

How’s about these 2 ideas?

• a person engaged in a specified activity, especially a sport, as a main paid occupation rather than as a pastime.

• a person competent or skilled in a particular activity

Teacher.

Someone who.........

· imparts knowledge to or instructs (someone) as to how to do something

· gives information about or instruction in (e.g. - a subject or skill

· causes (someone) to learn or understand something by example or experience.

Teaching like being a plumber or doctor is an occupation and secondary to that is the subject taught.... e.g. - a doctor of bio-chemistry may be highly proficient at his trade but completely unable to teach.

English

OK - English in this context i think means the study of “the language “ - of course there are in fact 2 main ways we study English (as I pointed out before).....

First is the language - this can go from basic learning as a native speaker from childhood or learning as a SECOND or OTHR language by students of ALL LEVELS and it can then be taken a step further in terms of an in depth study of the Language usually at university level takes on many forms including linguistics, etymology and the history of language in general. These studies of language don’t just apply to English but all languages.

The second form of English studied is that of literature - in fact most people who studied English at University will in fact primarily have studied English literature and its meanings and relation to culture.

So what do we mean by TEFL and English teacher actually is a non-question as they may or may not be one and the same. The questioner is making a false distinction with implications based on a lack of knowledge of either TEFL or teaching. You could ask what is the difference between a truck driver and a traffic warden?

TEFL stands for the Teaching of English as a Foreign Language. There are several other related acronyms......TESOL, ESL, EFL etc. ...... There are subtle differences between them but in truth the significance is irrelevant to my point. One that has a significant difference is ELT - English Language Teaching - which is an umbrella term for ALL English Language teaching.... this includes TEFL but as we shall see TEFL itself has implications that indicate a particular kind of teaching.

So what is TEFL and how did it come about?

How did you learn your NATIVE tongue? How were you taught a foreign language? - Most UK citizens were taught French at school - what’s your French like now?

The English language teaching tradition has been subject to tremendous change, especially throughout the twentieth century.

Effectively, up to the 20^th century English was taught under the principles of a classical education. The classics were supposed to be the key to enlightenment and the root of all good studies including English (Many academic papers were written in Latin as for centuries this was the Lingua Franca for international communication) - at least in the western world.... (a common European Language)

Then primary importance was given to grammatical rules, syntactic structures, etc. ..... As English language was viewed in the same way as the classical languages, rules, conjugations and parts of speech were the cornerstones and based largely on Latin.

Foreign languages too were taught on this basis - with rote memorisation of vocabulary and translation of literary texts. Scant attention was given to actually speaking a language, and as Latin and Geek were the primary “foreign” languages taught there was little use for “live” conversation.

This system of language teaching developed into the Grammar Translation Method. Many of us experienced this in French or German lessons at school and for the most part they will probably agree that it helped little in their ability to speak French or German.

Virtually every English student has had a French lesson yet the overall standard of French in the UK is appalling.. ...In my youth I trained as a French teacher, but I wouldn’t teach it now as I feel my French is simply not good enough.

“Many of the problems we have in the classroom today with grammar try to undo age old grammatical myths which were caused by the imposition of a Latin style grammar on the Anglo-Saxon English language.” “and yet we still hear people tell us that a sentence should not end in a preposition.” - Phil Quirke

At this point we need to turn to the French....

Francois Gouin....and Charles Berlitz

Whilst struggling for sometime with no success to learn German using traditional methods, Guoin noticed how his nephew’s language - French - and leapt on in strides - he than formulated and adapted new ideas on how we learn language. He came up with the “series Method” - which focussed on speaking and linked relevant sentences , clauses and phrases together.....”I pick up a book ...I read the book....etc.”

Using observations form scientists a century earlier Guoin was fundamentally changing how we perceived language teaching and subsequently taught language.

This was taken a step further by Charles Berlitz. - the “Direct Method ........

“The basic tenet of Berlitz's method was that second language learning is similar to first language learning. In this light, there should be lots of oral interaction, spontaneous use of the language, no translation, and little if any analysis of grammatical rules and syntactic structures. In short, the principles of the Direct Method were as follows:”

• CLASSROOM INSTRUCTION WAS CONDUCTED IN TARGET LANGUAGE

• There was an inductive approach to grammar

• Only everyday vocabulary was taught

• Concrete vocabulary was taught through pictures and objects, while abstract vocabulary was taught by association of ideas”

Berlitz are still a massive brand name in TEFL, but not tied to ay archaic systems and have contracts with major manufactures in Thailand.

This system though popular proved somewhat unwieldy but lead in turn to the ......

The Audiolingual Method

Originally developed by the US army in WW2 to meet the need for communication with both allies and enemies a quick and efficient way of learning was sought. - This method added the strength psychological and language analytical theory components on how we learn languages.

“The following points sum up the characteristics of the method:

• Dependence on mimicry and memorisation of set phrases

• Teaching structural patterns by means of repetitive drills (??Repetitio est mater studiorum??)[ = CLASSICS!!]

• No grammatical explanation

• Learning vocabulary in context

• Use of tapes and visual aids

• Focus on pronunciation

• Immediate reinforcement of correct responses”

It fell out of favour by the 1960s as subsequent research showed the ineffectiveness of drilling and memorisation so heavily relied on with this system.

...and very importantly...

“.......... Downgrading the role of context and world knowledge in language learning. After all, it was discovered that language was not acquired through a process of habit formation and errors were not necessarily bad or pernicious.” - DT

Thanks largely to Chomsky there was a revolution in linguistics in the 70s that saw the rise of “Designer Methods” of language teaching, all coming from the new linguistics and the advances in psychological knowledge about how we acquire language. The main criticism here was they tended to characterise a one solution for everyone approach. Many of these systems seem a bit “cranky” or off the wall by today’s standards.

The next step ... emphasised the importance of style awareness and strategy development in ensuring mastery of a foreign language.

Here is an example of a list of the "Ten Commandments" for good language learning (taken from Brown, H. D. 2000):

Teacher's Version Learner's Version

1 Lower inhibitions Fear not!

2 Encourage risk-taking Dive in

3 Build self-confidence Believe in yourself

4 Develop intrinsic motivation Seize the day

5 Engage in cooperative learning Love thy neighbour

6 Use right-brain processes Get the BIG picture

7 Promote ambiguity tolerance Cope with the chaos

8 Practice intuition Go with your hunches

9 Process error feedback Make mistakes work FOR you

10 Set personal goals Set your own goals

As you can see far from getting your “apostrophes right” or knowing “who” from “whom”, this is about getting the students in a frame of mind to learn.

The teacher here is seen as FACILITATOR rather than INSTRUCTOR

The 1980s saw the solidification of ideas and theories on Language learning into concrete and proven methods thatconcentrated on student interaction, real life situations and values, and authentic materials. Students were seen as individuals - All those of you trying to set up generalisations and stereotypical examples take note -

So TEFL has become an acronym that symbolises a TYPE of teaching - or rather language learning - that is quite different for that which most of us experienced at school - it is deeply based on the psychology of how we learn a language. TEFL has built upon the learner’s needs, not the teacher. .... and I would say that many of those writing on this thread would not recognise the methods or even some of the physical aspects of a TEFL classroom as they are so completely different from any language learning they experienced back at school. Materials, methods etc. have all been stood on their head. The students too Thai or otherwise find TEFL a really new and different to anything they have experienced before.

The result of all this development of our understanding of how language is acquired and can be taught has resulted in a large “export” industry. All around the world English has become the lingua franca for so many things; business, technology and even diplomacy.....a misconception by many on this thread seems to be that it is primarily taught to youngsters in schools - this is a fallacy - TEFL customers are not just school kids; universities, adults in business all take time to study. For a company to achieve its ISO certification it must show relevant EL courses and a competence of its staff to communicate internationally, doctors have to show competence in English as the vast majority of all medical research is presented in English...air traffic control English, maritime communication English the list goes on and training is needed. Furthermore this training is not just a one-off thing, it continues throughout a person’s career, as promotion usually requires an internationally recognised certificate. IELTS, Cambridge, TOEFL to name but a few.

TEFL - I suppose the end result and most distinctive characteristic of TEFL to the casual observer would be that classes are caries out almost exclusively in the TARGET LANGAUGE - in this case English - hence the preference for a Native Speaker.

So what is a “TEFL guy”? I’d suggest it is someone who understands these methods and carries them out. I’m sure to varying degrees just as all of us can remember having a crap teacher at school - regardless of subject - some never seemed to hit the spot

Qualifications and training? - well most have degrees - which indicates a certain academic/cognitive ability...... virtually all have a TEFL or TESOL cert - many have Diplomas, post-grad degrees, MAs or even PhDs in TEFL /TESOL or related subjects - like any subject you can take it as far as you want.

And........ What is a teacher - I guess the definition above will do - A general description would perhaps be that a teacher may work at an educational establishment of some kind and will usually - but not always have a specialist subject - TEFL is a specialist subject. Many teachers employed or trained in the west won’t be able to “TEFL” - they won’t be familiar with the methodology. So a “TEFL guy” would be included in that.

An English teacher? - Normally that would be someone who teaches English Language or Literature at an English speaking school - i.e. in a Native English Language environment. If they wanted to teach English as a foreign Language, like all the others, they could take a TEFL course, but they would most likely find like most others, they are starting from scratch.

As for the initial question the words of Brown about the development of our knowledge of language teaching and learning seem appropriate........

"Our research miscarriages are fewer as we have collectively learned how to conceive the right questions".

With thanks to Dimitrios Thanasoulas

I have interviewed a lot of teachers. Let me share with you some of my first questions to determine skill level and qualifications. Question 1. "Where'd you go to school? 2. "Graduated? What year? 3. GPA? 4. How many years teaching experience?"

I asked a number of times if you were a degreed, professional teacher. Since you won't answer I guess you are not a teacher nor a college graduate.

[wilcopops]

Now we’ve got down to schoolboy arguing techniques....no relevance to the argument just a load of gainsaying.

As for Thai teachers’ wages, check my initial comments above...they explain the position quite clearly and accurately.

There does however seem to be a lot of ignorance s to what TEFL actually is........

For example - I’m surprised that the question “What is the difference between them TEFL guys and a professional English teacher? “ because it seems to confirm my suspicions that there are a lot of people on this thread who really don’t know the first thing about education, teaching English and “TEFL”

It’s one of those questions that displays ignorance over curiosity....like

“If you go to the edge of the world will you fall off?”

i think someone even used the term “TEFL guy”

I’m assuming we can all come to some kind of consensus on the meaning of “guy” person (usually male) informal.

How about “professional”?

How’s about these 2 ideas?

• a person engaged in a specified activity, especially a sport, as a main paid occupation rather than as a pastime.

• a person competent or skilled in a particular activity

Teacher.

Someone who.........

· imparts knowledge to or instructs (someone) as to how to do something

· gives information about or instruction in (e.g. - a subject or skill

· causes (someone) to learn or understand something by example or experience.

Teaching like being a plumber or doctor is an occupation and secondary to that is the subject taught.... e.g. - a doctor of bio-chemistry may be highly proficient at his trade but completely unable to teach.

English

OK - English in this context i think means the study of “the language “ - of course there are in fact 2 main ways we study English (as I pointed out before).....

First is the language - this can go from basic learning as a native speaker from childhood or learning as a SECOND or OTHR language by students of ALL LEVELS and it can then be taken a step further in terms of an in depth study of the Language usually at university level takes on many forms including linguistics, etymology and the history of language in general. These studies of language don’t just apply to English but all languages.

The second form of English studied is that of literature - in fact most people who studied English at University will in fact primarily have studied English literature and its meanings and relation to culture.

So what do we mean by TEFL and English teacher actually is a non-question as they may or may not be one and the same. The questioner is making a false distinction with implications based on a lack of knowledge of either TEFL or teaching. You could ask what is the difference between a truck driver and a traffic warden?

TEFL stands for the Teaching of English as a Foreign Language. There are several other related acronyms......TESOL, ESL, EFL etc. ...... There are subtle differences between them but in truth the significance is irrelevant to my point. One that has a significant difference is ELT - English Language Teaching - which is an umbrella term for ALL English Language teaching.... this includes TEFL but as we shall see TEFL itself has implications that indicate a particular kind of teaching.

So what is TEFL and how did it come about?

How did you learn your NATIVE tongue? How were you taught a foreign language? - Most UK citizens were taught French at school - what’s your French like now?

The English language teaching tradition has been subject to tremendous change, especially throughout the twentieth century.

Effectively, up to the 20^th century English was taught under the principles of a classical education. The classics were supposed to be the key to enlightenment and the root of all good studies including English (Many academic papers were written in Latin as for centuries this was the Lingua Franca for international communication) - at least in the western world.... (a common European Language)

Then primary importance was given to grammatical rules, syntactic structures, etc. ..... As English language was viewed in the same way as the classical languages, rules, conjugations and parts of speech were the cornerstones and based largely on Latin.

Foreign languages too were taught on this basis - with rote memorisation of vocabulary and translation of literary texts. Scant attention was given to actually speaking a language, and as Latin and Geek were the primary “foreign” languages taught there was little use for “live” conversation.

This system of language teaching developed into the Grammar Translation Method. Many of us experienced this in French or German lessons at school and for the most part they will probably agree that it helped little in their ability to speak French or German.

Virtually every English student has had a French lesson yet the overall standard of French in the UK is appalling.. ...In my youth I trained as a French teacher, but I wouldn’t teach it now as I feel my French is simply not good enough.

“Many of the problems we have in the classroom today with grammar try to undo age old grammatical myths which were caused by the imposition of a Latin style grammar on the Anglo-Saxon English language.” “and yet we still hear people tell us that a sentence should not end in a preposition.” - Phil Quirke

At this point we need to turn to the French....

Francois Gouin....and Charles Berlitz

Whilst struggling for sometime with no success to learn German using traditional methods, Guoin noticed how his nephew’s language - French - and leapt on in strides - he than formulated and adapted new ideas on how we learn language. He came up with the “series Method” - which focussed on speaking and linked relevant sentences , clauses and phrases together.....”I pick up a book ...I read the book....etc.”

Using observations form scientists a century earlier Guoin was fundamentally changing how we perceived language teaching and subsequently taught language.

This was taken a step further by Charles Berlitz. - the “Direct Method ........

“The basic tenet of Berlitz's method was that second language learning is similar to first language learning. In this light, there should be lots of oral interaction, spontaneous use of the language, no translation, and little if any analysis of grammatical rules and syntactic structures. In short, the principles of the Direct Method were as follows:”

• CLASSROOM INSTRUCTION WAS CONDUCTED IN TARGET LANGUAGE

• There was an inductive approach to grammar

• Only everyday vocabulary was taught

• Concrete vocabulary was taught through pictures and objects, while abstract vocabulary was taught by association of ideas”

Berlitz are still a massive brand name in TEFL, but not tied to ay archaic systems and have contracts with major manufactures in Thailand.

This system though popular proved somewhat unwieldy but lead in turn to the ......

The Audiolingual Method

Originally developed by the US army in WW2 to meet the need for communication with both allies and enemies a quick and efficient way of learning was sought. - This method added the strength psychological and language analytical theory components on how we learn languages.

“The following points sum up the characteristics of the method:

• Dependence on mimicry and memorisation of set phrases

• Teaching structural patterns by means of repetitive drills (??Repetitio est mater studiorum??)[ = CLASSICS!!]

• No grammatical explanation

• Learning vocabulary in context

• Use of tapes and visual aids

• Focus on pronunciation

• Immediate reinforcement of correct responses”

It fell out of favour by the 1960s as subsequent research showed the ineffectiveness of drilling and memorisation so heavily relied on with this system.

...and very importantly...

“.......... Downgrading the role of context and world knowledge in language learning. After all, it was discovered that language was not acquired through a process of habit formation and errors were not necessarily bad or pernicious.” - DT

Thanks largely to Chomsky there was a revolution in linguistics in the 70s that saw the rise of “Designer Methods” of language teaching, all coming from the new linguistics and the advances in psychological knowledge about how we acquire language. The main criticism here was they tended to characterise a one solution for everyone approach. Many of these systems seem a bit “cranky” or off the wall by today’s standards.

The next step ... emphasised the importance of style awareness and strategy development in ensuring mastery of a foreign language.

Here is an example of a list of the "Ten Commandments" for good language learning (taken from Brown, H. D. 2000):

Teacher's Version Learner's Version

1 Lower inhibitions Fear not!

2 Encourage risk-taking Dive in

3 Build self-confidence Believe in yourself

4 Develop intrinsic motivation Seize the day

5 Engage in cooperative learning Love thy neighbour

6 Use right-brain processes Get the BIG picture

7 Promote ambiguity tolerance Cope with the chaos

8 Practice intuition Go with your hunches

9 Process error feedback Make mistakes work FOR you

10 Set personal goals Set your own goals

As you can see far from getting your “apostrophes right” or knowing “who” from “whom”, this is about getting the students in a frame of mind to learn.

The teacher here is seen as FACILITATOR rather than INSTRUCTOR

The 1980s saw the solidification of ideas and theories on Language learning into concrete and proven methods thatconcentrated on student interaction, real life situations and values, and authentic materials. Students were seen as individuals - All those of you trying to set up generalisations and stereotypical examples take note -

So TEFL has become an acronym that symbolises a TYPE of teaching - or rather language learning - that is quite different for that which most of us experienced at school - it is deeply based on the psychology of how we learn a language. TEFL has built upon the learner’s needs, not the teacher. .... and I would say that many of those writing on this thread would not recognise the methods or even some of the physical aspects of a TEFL classroom as they are so completely different from any language learning they experienced back at school. Materials, methods etc. have all been stood on their head. The students too Thai or otherwise find TEFL a really new and different to anything they have experienced before.

The result of all this development of our understanding of how language is acquired and can be taught has resulted in a large “export” industry. All around the world English has become the lingua franca for so many things; business, technology and even diplomacy.....a misconception by many on this thread seems to be that it is primarily taught to youngsters in schools - this is a fallacy - TEFL customers are not just school kids; universities, adults in business all take time to study. For a company to achieve its ISO certification it must show relevant EL courses and a competence of its staff to communicate internationally, doctors have to show competence in English as the vast majority of all medical research is presented in English...air traffic control English, maritime communication English the list goes on and training is needed. Furthermore this training is not just a one-off thing, it continues throughout a person’s career, as promotion usually requires an internationally recognised certificate. IELTS, Cambridge, TOEFL to name but a few.

TEFL - I suppose the end result and most distinctive characteristic of TEFL to the casual observer would be that classes are caries out almost exclusively in the TARGET LANGAUGE - in this case English - hence the preference for a Native Speaker.

So what is a “TEFL guy”? I’d suggest it is someone who understands these methods and carries them out. I’m sure to varying degrees just as all of us can remember having a crap teacher at school - regardless of subject - some never seemed to hit the spot

Qualifications and training? - well most have degrees - which indicates a certain academic/cognitive ability...... virtually all have a TEFL or TESOL cert - many have Diplomas, post-grad degrees, MAs or even PhDs in TEFL /TESOL or related subjects - like any subject you can take it as far as you want.

And........ What is a teacher - I guess the definition above will do - A general description would perhaps be that a teacher may work at an educational establishment of some kind and will usually - but not always have a specialist subject - TEFL is a specialist subject. Many teachers employed or trained in the west won’t be able to “TEFL” - they won’t be familiar with the methodology. So a “TEFL guy” would be included in that.

An English teacher? - Normally that would be someone who teaches English Language or Literature at an English speaking school - i.e. in a Native English Language environment. If they wanted to teach English as a foreign Language, like all the others, they could take a TEFL course, but they would most likely find like most others, they are starting from scratch.

As for the initial question the words of Brown about the development of our knowledge of language teaching and learning seem appropriate........

"Our research miscarriages are fewer as we have collectively learned how to conceive the right questions".

With thanks to Dimitrios Thanasoulas

I have interviewed a lot of teachers. Let me share with you some of my first questions to determine skill level and qualifications. Question 1. "Where'd you go to school? 2. "Graduated? What year? 3. GPA? 4. How many years teaching experience?"

I asked a number of times if you were a degreed, professional teacher. Since you won't answer I guess you are not a teacher nor a college graduate.

love your methods of deduction (in a rather humorous way) - ever tried critical thinking? So far you haven't argued against a single point I've made, just typed out baseless yet risible schoolboy attempts at insults...the next thing will be you start a "yo mamma" rant

Edited June 4, 2014 by wilcopops

[thailiketoo]

love your methods of deduction (in a rather humorous way) - ever tried critical thinking?

With no experience teaching nor a degree in education how to you feel qualified to comment on skill levels and professionalism in teachers in Thailand? No experience and no education in my book translates into no knowledge.

The critical skills necessary to be a professional educator are acquired after years of education and years of dedicated experience; there is not shortcut.

Edited June 4, 2014 by thailiketoo

[ravip]

I can assure you that to teach English, you DON'T need a native English teacher.

There are countries where there are perfect English teachers

(I am not specifically referring to TH)

But insisting that you need a native English teacher to teach English is absolute Bull.

(or for that matter ANY language)

True but this also means you don't understand what TEFL entails.

I agree.

But, if a teacher can teach English (or any other language) to another perfectly is it bad?

TEFL is a standard.

But again it goes like this...

Qualifications for TEFL teachers

Qualification requirements vary considerably from country to country and among employers within the same country. In many institutions it is possible to teach without a degree or teaching certificate.

[thailiketoo]

I can assure you that to teach English, you DON'T need a native English teacher.

There are countries where there are perfect English teachers

(I am not specifically referring to TH)

But insisting that you need a native English teacher to teach English is absolute Bull.

(or for that matter ANY language)

True but this also means you don't understand what TEFL entails.

I agree.

But, if a teacher can teach English (or any other language) to another perfectly is it bad?

TEFL is a standard.

But again it goes like this...

Qualifications for TEFL teachers

Qualification requirements vary considerably from country to country and among employers within the same country. In many institutions it is possible to teach without a degree or teaching certificate.

Teacher surpluses in the USA, Canada and many places in the West have made available many degreed professional teachers. Thailand has only to increase it's recruiting efforts to better the quality of it's English education.

[wilcopops]

I can assure you that to teach English, you DON'T need a native English teacher.

There are countries where there are perfect English teachers

(I am not specifically referring to TH)

But insisting that you need a native English teacher to teach English is absolute Bull.

(or for that matter ANY language)

True but this also means you don't understand what TEFL entails.

I agree.

But, if a teacher can teach English (or any other language) to another perfectly is it bad?

TEFL is a standard.

But again it goes like this...

Qualifications for TEFL teachers

Qualification requirements vary considerably from country to country and among employers within the same country. In many institutions it is possible to teach without a degree or teaching certificate.

Yep - but not often however in Thailand who require teachers to have a degree - and of course a piece of paper doesn't make a teacher. Knowledge of the methodology does help as it really wouldn't be TEFL otherwise.

TEFL's not a standard - it's a methodology or approach to language learning. As said earlier, it is quite likely that an English teacher from the States or UK who teaches English to native speakers would have little idea on how to teach English as a foreign language - it is a different set of needs and principles. they usually take a TEFL course just like everyone else.

Edited June 4, 2014 by wilcopops

[wilcopops]

I can assure you that to teach English, you DON'T need a native English teacher.

There are countries where there are perfect English teachers

(I am not specifically referring to TH)

But insisting that you need a native English teacher to teach English is absolute Bull.

(or for that matter ANY language)

True but this also means you don't understand what TEFL entails.

I agree.

But, if a teacher can teach English (or any other language) to another perfectly is it bad?

TEFL is a standard.

But again it goes like this...

Qualifications for TEFL teachers

Qualification requirements vary considerably from country to country and among employers within the same country. In many institutions it is possible to teach without a degree or teaching certificate.

Teacher surpluses in the USA, Canada and many places in the West have made available many degreed professional teachers. Thailand has only to increase it's recruiting efforts to better the quality of it's English education.

Thailand already requires its teachers to have a degree.

[wilcopops]

love your methods of deduction (in a rather humorous way) - ever tried critical thinking?

With no experience teaching nor a degree in education how to you feel qualified to comment on skill levels and professionalism in teachers in Thailand? No experience and no education in my book translates into no knowledge.

The critical skills necessary to be a professional educator are acquired after years of education and years of dedicated experience; there is not shortcut.

Now it would seem you don't understand what critical thinking is....however you do seem to e getting very hot under the collar and have now simply resorted to gainsaying.

I wonder if you are like this in the classroom - I bet your students would find your attics on this thread hilarious - if they could translate them.

Your getting wildly off the topic - I'm still waiting for a single comment from you about any point I've made that is relevant to the OP's topic.....any chance?

hint - I'm not after ad hominem attacks, but something relevant to the topic.......you don't seem to grasp the basics of a debate even.

Edited June 4, 2014 by wilcopops

[thailiketoo]

True but this also means you don't understand what TEFL entails.

I agree.

But, if a teacher can teach English (or any other language) to another perfectly is it bad?

TEFL is a standard.

But again it goes like this...

Qualifications for TEFL teachers

Qualification requirements vary considerably from country to country and among employers within the same country. In many institutions it is possible to teach without a degree or teaching certificate.

Teacher surpluses in the USA, Canada and many places in the West have made available many degreed professional teachers. Thailand has only to increase it's recruiting efforts to better the quality of it's English education.

Thailand already requires its teachers to have a degree.

Wrong. Come to Thailand and see for yourself.