Universal doubts cloud 'perfect' Koh Tao murder investigation

[dcutman]

Geez maybe if these two had a lawyer in the first place, like during the interrogation and confession, this might not be so dramatic.

Oh yeh thats right the Thai police say they didnt ask for one (in Thai)

Edited October 8, 2014 by dcutman

[prakhonchai nick]

The ex general, now PM, can rekindle some of his waning magic, by insisting on new DNA samples being taken from all current and previous suspects, this being carried out by UK approved doctors/clinics.

[yellowboat]

...........Let's rustle up a million baht and offer it to the heads mans family .........

Wouldn't give them the skin of my sh1t.

I will be happy to pay your share as well Mr. Potty Mouth.

[littlebw]

UK Rules--you often suggest that the UK Government 'should' do XYZ--but, as we all know, this is very unlikely--Cameron has enough on his plate with ISIS, UKIP, and other anagrams and really--does he have the balls? The UK Police are about as likely to get involved as Deputy Dawg.

Perhaps England is involved but laying low until crunch time eh...

This is what Im thinking , surely Sean and friends of Hannah and David have spoke to UK police

and like a genuine police force there is no need to spout any details off to the general public

how it should be done

Edited October 8, 2014 by littlebw

[Rumblecat]

How come we only get articles like this from 'Coconuts BKK'--surely, if the Burmese have recanted their confessions then major news syndicates would be running the story?

And this one today--where are the big Media players?

They are running the story. Telegraph, Mirror, Independent, New York Daily News, Mail, Guardian etc etc etc.

Not sure what your point is- that the Coconuts Bkk article is inaccurate? Or that you'd rather read an article on it from a different source..?

[mjnaus]

Well, at least one guy bought it: JohnThailandJohn, come in please...

[mommysboy]

If the DNA test was positive that's that. Only other explanation is that it was introduced afterwards.

Sent from my i-mobile IQ 1 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[Cuchulainn]

Potty mouth

Like it.

[haybilly]

How come we only get articles like this from 'Coconuts BKK'--surely, if the Burmese have recanted their confessions then major news syndicates would be running the story?

And this one today--where are the big Media players?

They are running the story. Telegraph, Mirror, Independent, New York Daily News, Mail, Guardian etc etc etc.

Not sure what your point is- that the Coconuts Bkk article is inaccurate? Or that you'd rather read an article on it from a different source..?

I wasn't aware that the papers that you mention have printed that the boys have recanted their confessions-yes, those papers have more clout.

[bannork]

I think it is only natural and right that this allegedly "perfect job" is being scrutinized and criticized by the public following all these inconsistencies and bizarre tales described in the OP. After all, no-one should be allowed to play with the lives of two people if there is even the slightest chance they may not be guilty of this horrendous crime.

I suppose that even the families and relatives of David Miller and Hannah Witheridge would not like to see a couple of scapegoats going to the gallows while the real culprits possibly still remain at large - or are perhaps even protected by some influential parties, as has been alleged more than once.

The RTP can at this point plead as much as they want how "perfect" this investigation has allegedly been, but a large proportion of the public both locally and abroad simply doesn't buy it. The RTP has nobody to blame but themselves for this situation, because in the past they have shown again and again what an incompetent, corrupt lot they are; nothing short of worthy of the Keystone Cops, actually.

That this latest case seemingly has been botched up once more only proves to the public that nothing has been learned from similarly botched-up cases in the past and that nothing has improved in terms of the RTP's investigative professionalism. THAT is why the public is suspicious. THAT is why the public demands transparency and honest answers. And THAT is why the public has the right to criticize and scrutinize.

And the RTPs stubborn refusal to permit an independent investigation and re-examination of evidence does not exactly help to remedy the current situation either, does it?

The police may have nailed down DNA evidence this time, even though they were unable to get a match the first time they checked samples from the suspects. But their case still depends on the suspects' confession, since the police will be unable to satisfactorily explain in court exactly what happened with all the discrepancies in their evidence.

It is very important that the suspects withdraw their confession and plead not guilty. The downside to them is no different is they lose. No deal from the police to spare them the death sentence can be honoured by the court. But they will not be executed for fear of bad relations with Burma. If they plead not guilty, decent lawyers would have a sporting chance of getting them off with only the illegal entry and work permit offences sticking. That's a fee trip to the Ranong crossing point. Change names, get new ID cards and passports and they could come back to Thailand as legal workers. The Thai authorities don't seem to know their real names anyway as they quote different names every time, all of which are different from the names quoted by the Burmese lawyer.

The police didn't take their DNA before they were detained, they lived outside the zone for testing in the first round.

[Dogmatix]

What as come out of this report that has not been said before (that I have seen ) is that the 2 "Suspects" do not speak Thai.

I suspected this all along and it begs the question : Did they really understand what was going on when they were arrested and taken to a safe house to be interrogated for however long it was ?

It is said that a Rohinga was used as a translator but I cant believe that one translator was with both of them, probably separated, throughout the whole interrogation.

I didn't see the reenactment but I read from those who did that the pair had to be coached as to where to point and what to do, no translator by the look of it, did they really know what was happening ?

Independent DNA tests are the only way to go and if the police really believe they have the right people why would they refuse ? For if those tests were positive then it would prove beyond doubt they have the right people and vindicate them.

There were two Rohingya interpretors - one for each - and they must both be illegal immigrants too, since the Rohingyas are stateless and a passport is needed to enter and work legally. So they have to do police dirty work, or get deported, and obviously have no qualifications as translators of legal language and could probably not read the confessions in Thai given to the suspects to sign either. In fact they are probably illiterate in Burmese. The Burmese lawyer said he was told by the suspects that at least one of the interpreters joined in the police beatings. One of the 'interpreters' sidelines as a banana pancake salesman as you can see here.

Thai taxpayers should be happy with the BiB for saving taxpayers' money by not flying professionally qualified interpreters down from Bkk. Great, if they could really take their turn at the beatings too and save the police' knuckles.

Edited October 8, 2014 by Dogmatix

[godden]

A much closer look at this case needs to be conducted

[Josh88]

Please sign this petition if you haven't already - http://www.change.org/p/the-government-of-the-united-kingdom-independently-investigate-the-horrific-murders-of-hannah-witheridge-and-david-miller

The UK government needs to be pressured into independently investigating two of its citizens' murders and the obvious injustice and cover up by the Thai officials. International pressure, particularly from the UK, is the only chance of the truth ever coming to light and the responsible parties being held accountable. It seems as though the UK isn't interested in dong so for fear of diplomatic repercussions, so maybe if enough of their citizens demand that they do then they'll have no choice. If they don't then they're as guilty as the corrupt Thai government and police officials as far as I'm concerned.

[rethaier]

This is just one of many cases over the decades where the Police have flipped and flopped and rocked from one disaster to another,tainting and destroying the crime scene as they go , if they haven't a Police media unit they should get one , now if they go back to all the B/S spoken about this case and filtered the facts, they would look very ordinary outfit indeed, for instance, the spokesperson said , quote, The DNA indicates that it wasn't an Asian , what the F!!k are you doing releasing these important facts and then bouncing a backward flip and arresting two Burmese workers and shock horror gasp the Burmese officials are satisfied with the grand result, well I'll be F!!!ked.

I am not saying it is the two Asians that were chosen, but the first DNA test I heard of was that the DNA was from two Asians.

[ukrules]

UK Rules--you often suggest that the UK Government 'should' do XYZ--but, as we all know, this is very unlikely--Cameron has enough on his plate with ISIS, UKIP, and other anagrams and really--does he have the balls? The UK Police are about as likely to get involved as Deputy Dawg.

This has nothing to do with Cameron and how busy he is. There's a full and dedicated system in place for creating DNA profiles of the whole population, in fact I believe this is their ultimate goal.

When a victim arrives back in the UK after a vicious murder it is investigated, inquests can be held regardless of where the person dies.

If this happens samples will have been collected and stored permanently. These samples would be sent to a well equiped DNA lab along with 1000's of other samples collected every week and a full DNA profile of the material will have been produced.

This will have been done already as it's a standard procedure.

Read this - Section 5.2 in particular :

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/141958/mou-fco-acpo-coroners.pdf

If the families of the victims are fully satisfied that a full and honest investigation has taken place then I'm sure there will be no issue.

However if they aren't 100% satisfied then the following appears to apply :

Also this one from the above link :

So to sum it up, a murder investigation will be launched.

Do you think the families are fully satisfied at this stage ?

Edited October 8, 2014 by ukrules

[OmarZaidMD]

"V' for Vendetta appears to be in order. Forget the RTP et. al. call in a 'pro'.

[MrJohnson]

How come we only get articles like this from 'Coconuts BKK'--surely, if the Burmese have recanted their confessions then major news syndicates would be running the story?

And this one today--where are the big Media players?

They are running the story. Telegraph, Mirror, Independent, New York Daily News, Mail, Guardian etc etc etc.

Not sure what your point is- that the Coconuts Bkk article is inaccurate? Or that you'd rather read an article on it from a different source..?

It would be nice to read some of these other newspapers online but apparently Big Brother has decided that the little children old enough to read that kind of thing just yet (in Thailand). Get used to it. There will be more censorship here, no less!

[Rykbanlor]

UK Rules--you often suggest that the UK Government 'should' do XYZ--but, as we all know, this is very unlikely--Cameron has enough on his plate with ISIS, UKIP, and other anagrams and really--does he have the balls? The UK Police are about as likely to get involved as Deputy Dawg.

Perhaps England is involved but laying low until crunch time eh...

This is what Im thinking , surely Sean and friends of Hannah and David have spoke to UK police

and like a genuine police force there is no need to spout any details off to the general public

how it should be done

I don't think Sean will want to talk - I think he's involved a little more than he made out during his little window of media scrutiny.

[balo]

they're trying to tell everyone that these two Myanmar Midgets first overpowered a young, apparently fit European twice their size, killed him, then raped the girl and killed her, oh, after sharing a condom? Plus, they say they used the handle of the hoe on David, but the pictures of David clearly show that a KNIFE, or some type of SHARP BLADED weapon, was used by his attackers. They can not read, write or speak Thai, but they "confessed" to police after an "intensive interrogation" at a supposed "safe house". And by the video of their "reenactment" of the crime, they had to be "directed" by the Thai police as to what they did.

sorry, way too many "inconsistencies" for me.

And so many inconsistencies in your writing too.

- Midgets as you call them can easily kill a farang twice their size , Thais have done that before. especially when they are 3 against one.

. What they actually said does not always reflect what actually happened, they were drunk that night.

- They can not speak good Thai but a Burmese translator was present during the interrogation according to the official statement.

And you last comment about being "directed" by the police , well I've seen the picture and that ridiculous pointing in all directions , but do you really know what the police asked them to do ?

Edited October 8, 2014 by balo

[cookee68]

Now the burmese have their lawyers perhaps we could start a fund to match the $1 million baht that the head man said he would pay if anyone could prove anyone from his family was involved....

Let's rustle up a million baht and offer it to the heads mans family if they give DNA samples to the UK authorities..All the sons and cousins...not put the samples in a taxi fto Singapore and end up in bkk...Let the uk compare them with the samples they have

If they have nothing to hide they'd jump at it and all this inuendo would vanish...

Then their sweet little Island can return to business as normal, even regain their already lost face and income,

What's worse for a Thai, loss of face or money? Well you have all of the above now..

Would be the perfect call for his disgusting offer of a million to prove his family did it...

The familes DNA holds the key..

why did they not give their dna, it proves guilt or no guilt, unless they are scared the police will use their dna and fit them up, hhmmmmm

[MediaWatcher]

Recent news indicates that, although we were told the British Embassy, or a senior diplomat would attend the meeting, they in fact stayed away and the Myanmar embassy contradicts claims it is "pleased" with the investigation...so, here we have out right lies. Let's see what the PM and police come up with next.

[asiletto]

Here's the non-suspect who fled the island the day after and has not provided a dna sample.

Mon sot.....

Taken from his fb page

who is this man and why you say it is involved? Just asking because I don't followed the case

[Rykbanlor]

I think it is only natural and right that this allegedly "perfect job" is being scrutinized and criticized by the public following all these inconsistencies and bizarre tales described in the OP. After all, no-one should be allowed to play with the lives of two people if there is even the slightest chance they may not be guilty of this horrendous crime.

I suppose that even the families and relatives of David Miller and Hannah Witheridge would not like to see a couple of scapegoats going to the gallows while the real culprits possibly still remain at large - or are perhaps even protected by some influential parties, as has been alleged more than once.

The RTP can at this point plead as much as they want how "perfect" this investigation has allegedly been, but a large proportion of the public both locally and abroad simply doesn't buy it. The RTP has nobody to blame but themselves for this situation, because in the past they have shown again and again what an incompetent, corrupt lot they are; nothing short of worthy of the Keystone Cops, actually.

That this latest case seemingly has been botched up once more only proves to the public that nothing has been learned from similarly botched-up cases in the past and that nothing has improved in terms of the RTP's investigative professionalism. THAT is why the public is suspicious. THAT is why the public demands transparency and honest answers. And THAT is why the public has the right to criticize and scrutinize.

And the RTPs stubborn refusal to permit an independent investigation and re-examination of evidence does not exactly help to remedy the current situation either, does it?

The police may have nailed down DNA evidence this time, even though they were unable to get a match the first time they checked samples from the suspects. But their case still depends on the suspects' confession, since the police will be unable to satisfactorily explain in court exactly what happened with all the discrepancies in their evidence.

It is very important that the suspects withdraw their confession and plead not guilty. The downside to them is no different is they lose. No deal from the police to spare them the death sentence can be honoured by the court. But they will not be executed for fear of bad relations with Burma. If they plead not guilty, decent lawyers would have a sporting chance of getting them off with only the illegal entry and work permit offences sticking. That's a fee trip to the Ranong crossing point. Change names, get new ID cards and passports and they could come back to Thailand as legal workers. The Thai authorities don't seem to know their real names anyway as they quote different names every time, all of which are different from the names quoted by the Burmese lawyer.

The police didn't take their DNA before they were detained, they lived outside the zone for testing in the first round.

Wrong - there are pictures of them both lining up from the first DNA testing rounds. Every time a piece of irrefutable evidence such as this is floated the Police story changes and any confusion is blamed on inaccurate media reports or unofficial Police sources. Convenient.

[HenryC]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/thailand/11147921/Amnesty-urges-investigation-into-torture-of-Thai-island-murder-suspects.html

Now that has clout to quote another, the pressure is mounting.

I wonder how JTJ will spin this one out

[Suffinator]

One of the benefits of the junta (and believe me I`m more accustomed to pointing out the negatives) is that Prayuth can basically act as he wishes in terms of reshuffling police hierarchy and demanding a fair trial. Heads should have rolled and a big show put on to show the world Thai police can actually do a good job.

Instead he came out and said the girl basically deserved it as she was wearing a bikini, (she wasn`t actually but beside the point) whilst others have suggested electronic tagging and charging tourists to visit. Finally we shamefully have 2 innocent Burmese, the most vulnerable group, framed for it when everyone know who did it. The whole thing has been a farce.

In reality the junta is more concerned with whether the RTP hierarchy are loyal to them or Thaksin, and have little concern about their ability to do the job or corruption.

Do what I did ... Leave in protest. I've said this so many times... if significant numbers of expats hit the Had Yai border the world would take notice and maybe change can be effected. Whilst you still financially support such a regime it will continue to flourish.

[prakhonchai nick]

Please sign this petition if you haven't already - http://www.change.org/p/the-government-of-the-united-kingdom-independently-investigate-the-horrific-murders-of-hannah-witheridge-and-david-miller

Would love to, but what goes where? it is all in Thai. i tried and filled in what I thought was correct, but it was rejected.

[Chetzee]

As perfect as it may seem ! Open and closed case , i am sure that at autopsy the pathologist in the UK has been diligent enough to take hair samples to test for Rohipnol .

This is no wine or alcohol related crime , it smacks of premeditated date rape , outRAGE and instant remorse by the Iced up perps .

I mean lets be frank here ,Hannah was not merely killed on that beach , someone no doubt in a rage made an attempt to annihilate , to wipe her face of this earth .

As a consequence i am sure those friends and associates , of they main suspects in this case , will have noticed outbursts of rage on other occasions , no doubt some of those associates are now having their own doubts . It is time for them to voice their doubts , they may be among the Burmese community of Koh tao , or the more refined society of BBk university , or indeed previous travellers to the island .

[MediaWatcher]

NongKhaiKid, on 08 Oct 2014 - 15:11, said:

A ' perfect job ', I wonder what he would call one that had really been botched ?

I think in this case "perfect" refers to the police and National police chief Somyot Poompanmoung believing it to be a "perfect" frame up.

[Dogmatix]

UK Rules--you often suggest that the UK Government 'should' do XYZ--but, as we all know, this is very unlikely--Cameron has enough on his plate with ISIS, UKIP, and other anagrams and really--does he have the balls? The UK Police are about as likely to get involved as Deputy Dawg.

This has nothing to do with Cameron and how busy he is. There's a full and dedicated system in place for creating DNA profiles of the whole population, in fact I believe this is their ultimate goal.

When a victim arrives back in the UK after a vicious murder it is investigated, inquests can be held regardless of where the person dies.

If thi shappens samples will have been collected and stored permanently. These samples would be sent to a well equiped DNA lab along with 1000's of other samples collected every week and a full DNA profile of the material will have been produced.

This will have been done already as it's a standard procedure.

Read this - Section 5.2 in particular :

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/141958/mou-fco-acpo-coroners.pdf

If the families of the victims are fully satisfied that a full and honest investigation has taken place then I'm sure there will be no issue.

However if they aren't 100% satisfied then the following appears to apply :

request-assistance.JPG

Also this one from the above link :

request-assistance-2.JPG

So to sum it up, a murder investigation will be launched.

Do you think the families are full satisfied at this stage ?

Is it confirmed that the bodies of the deceased were sent for autopsy in the UK? I thought the Thais only send embalmed bodies abroad after removal of all internal organs in cases like this to avoid the embarrassment of conflicting autopsy reports.

Is is also confirmed that there will be inquests? Without reliable autopsies inquests would be a lot less effective.

[Rykbanlor]

Here's the non-suspect who fled the island the day after and has not provided a dna sample.

Mon sot.....

Taken from his fb page

who is this man and why you say it is involved? Just asking because I don't followed the case

This is Nomsod, or Dodo - The son of village headman Warot Tuvichien. The Thai webpage CSI LA has been working on this guy. I read Thai so I have been able to scour the site and I believe he was involved too.

His father claims he wasn't there, and they have CCTV footage in his uni in BKK to prove it, but the CCTV footage is after 9am the next day and previously the day before. A speedboat was seen leaving the Island early and its assumed he got out to a nearby airport (samui/surat/etc).

He is the one running on the CCTV footage with no shirt. I have looked at many differnet cross-comparisons of his gait, haircut etc and he seems to be the one.

Also Thai people from Koh Tao, too afraid to speak out have contacted this page to say he was there that night, and other students at his uni confirmed he wasnt in for class the following day and when he did return people noticed scratches on his neck and arms.

Him along with his uncle, the 'mafia guy' in Seans picture, and at the crime site (Mon Tuvichien) are both left handed as seen from pictures, which is consistent with the wounds to David's body. The 2 Burmese are both right handed, I noticed myself from videos and pictures.

Don't underestimate the connections of the Tuvichien family.

If anyone wants to know anymore details feel free to PM me.

Regards