DNA test will clear my son: Koh Tao headman

[ClutchClark]

@StealthEnergiser

Thank you for posting the videos in the other thread which was locked by the mods just after you posted them. I had not seen the one sourced from the Thai news site before. It was particularly sad to actually hear the victims' friends speak. Chris Ware appeared to be absolutely shell-shocked. The impression I got from the femail travelling companion (presumably Hannah's room mate and the one who gave her phone to the police) was that Hannah's travelling group barely knew David. I cannot see that they were ever a "couple" as such and IMHO this puts paid to the theory that they were engaged in a romantic encounter on the beach that night. Besides, there was never any solid evidence that this was the case. So what was the so-called confession by the Burmese that they were "aroused" by the activities of the couple all about? I think this is total BS.

It makes a big difference to see moving pictures with sound, rather than the still images which were published in the press. I also noticed the village headman and his brother trampling all over the crime scene before the bodies had even been moved. Still images never tell the whole story.

From what I understand David Miller came across a bunch of people raping a woman and he intervened. They killed him for this.

Then they killed her, right now I'm presuming they killed her because she witnessed Davids murder.

This is my opinion only. I hope they convict the correct people for this because someone who does this kind of crime will do it again, it's just be a matter of time...

To pre-empt the usual name-calling of RTP apologist and family supporter, I will simply say that I do not know who killed and raped these two young British people. Nor do I think Justice is likely ever to found in this case. I do not say it is the Burmese and I do not say it is the "son".

If the two Burmese actually did commit the crime then there are quite alot of people here arguing for genuine killers to be set free. There have been unspeakable crimes of violence committed by Burmese just like there have been committed by Thai or any other group of humans.

If a member of this powerful family was not a participant in this crime then there are quite alot of posters here who are allowing certain prejudices to cloud their judgement and to malign a family in a manner that is completely unfair and these educated posters adamantly refuse to practice the same empathy and courtesy they would ask for themselves and their own family.

I do not understand how everyone is convinced a powerful family on a small island supposedly has the power to control the entire country of Thailand and that is exactly what members on this board are suggesting. There are claims on this thread that suggest all powerful families and the RTP are all in a conspiracy. History has shown that powerful families do not all work together, that there are, in fact, shifting allegiances and power plays taking place just like they take place on Wall Street or throughout British History. In other words, some powerful groups would profit by the fall of this headman and would immediately move in to fill the void in power created.

Lastly, there is this idea amongst many British posters that David could not possibly have been romantically engaged with Hannah. The very need for these posters to deny even the possibility that these two young people could have been walking romantically on the beach defies all logic. The reason for this denial is because Hannah was engaged to another young man and any suggestion she was "with" David apparently would make her a bad person. Regardless the fact, David was a handsome and talented young man with a bright future ahead and most any young lady would find him attractive. Regardless the fact they had been having a fun time drinking with friends only hours before. Regardless the fact KT is a romantic getaway of a tropical island beach with sand, surf, a star-filled sky and even moonlight.

The idea that these two could not possibly have shared a kiss or held each others hand seems so unlikely and suggests such denial exists from some members on this board that it seems almost impossible they could be relied on to make any sound opinion of guilty party.

[smokie36]

Whatever Clutch....none of that is a predisposition to rape and murder.

The same could be said any week on Koh Tao.

[ClutchClark]

Whatever Clutch....none of that is a predisposition to rape and murder.

The same could be said any week on Koh Tao.

Your post doesn't even make enough sense to allow a response.

[German Viking]

Back in the day one way to test if somebody being accused of a witch was to tie waits to her and put her in water. If she didn't sink and die then they would know she was a witch. The conspiracy folks have got to this same point of losing touch with reality and are so caught up in this crowd mentality of accusation that they don't even realize how ignorant and out of touch with reality they have become. It is like lemmings following each other off a cliff, they just can't help themselves and are too far gone to pull themselves back.

Holy smoke I did'nt know that the english ppl know this extraordinary Witch test, this was very common in the dark middle age in Germany too and 99,99% of these ppl who drowned or burnt where innocent.

They was defamed for different reasons, for example a pretty girl denied to having sex with some powerful ppl this was good enough to defame her as a witch.

Or some ppl who where jealous about other ppl fortune, it was easy for them to defame others, when they got powerful witnesses on their site.

After the Witches was burned, they was automaticly excommunicated, means their fortune was confiscated and shared between the judge and the witnesses.

When there are any similarities to the Koh Tao case, it's maybe just random!!???

I my opinion we are on the way back to the dark middleage.

I guess, how this case will solved can be a milestone to a better world or vice versa.

I still hope the best, but expect the worst.

Carpe diem

[phuketandsee]

This isn't aimed at any particular poster, but can I please reiterate the Thai Visa forum rules, in particular rule 11.

11) You will not post slurs, degrading or overly negative comments directed towards Thailand, specific locations, Thai institutions such as the judicial or law enforcement system, Thai culture, Thai people or any other group on the basis of race, nationality, religion, gender or sexual orientation.

Please everyone, do be careful what you post. Please don't use names when discussing possible perpetrators of these murders.

Moderating the Koh Tao topics has become like walking a tightrope for us mods, who do this on a voluntary basis. We all want to see real justice as the outcome of this case. But at the same time we have to be aware of Thailand's rather draconian libel laws which are covered under criminal law as well as civil. This is the reason we have to keep removing posts that link the CSI LA Facebook page and we have to keep to boring old mainstream media reports.

This really isn't easy. We honestly don't want to endlessly remove posts. We are not complicit in any sort of bizarre cover up. But we do have to protect the forum and the people who post here.

If anyone has any questions about this, please PM me rather than replying to this post.

Many thanks,

MJP

Thanks for all your hard work. You have a very difficult, tedious and possibly dangerous job. Can't think why you do it really!

[MJP]

This isn't aimed at any particular poster, but can I please reiterate the Thai Visa forum rules, in particular rule 11.

11) You will not post slurs, degrading or overly negative comments directed towards Thailand, specific locations, Thai institutions such as the judicial or law enforcement system, Thai culture, Thai people or any other group on the basis of race, nationality, religion, gender or sexual orientation.

Please everyone, do be careful what you post. Please don't use names when discussing possible perpetrators of these murders.

Moderating the Koh Tao topics has become like walking a tightrope for us mods, who do this on a voluntary basis. We all want to see real justice as the outcome of this case. But at the same time we have to be aware of Thailand's rather draconian libel laws which are covered under criminal law as well as civil. This is the reason we have to keep removing posts that link the CSI LA Facebook page and we have to keep to boring old mainstream media reports.

This really isn't easy. We honestly don't want to endlessly remove posts. We are not complicit in any sort of bizarre cover up. But we do have to protect the forum and the people who post here.

If anyone has any questions about this, please PM me rather than replying to this post.

Many thanks,

MJP

Thanks for all your hard work. You have a very difficult, tedious and possibly dangerous job. Can't think why you do it really!

The endless trolling and baiting back and forth is tedious. Wouldn't say this is a dangerous pastime, but my eyeballs sometimes require refitting.

It's difficult in the sense that you want people to have free speech, you agree with what they're saying, but know it can't be left up on the board for all manner of reasons. Then because you've taken it down you're accused of being part of some bizarre conspiracy to hide the truth. Which couldn't be further from the truth.

Rather than do the usual modspeak I've decided to communicate like a human being on this matter.

[IslandLover]

culicine, on 31 Oct 2014 - 02:05, said:culicine, on 31 Oct 2014 - 02:05, said:culicine, on 31 Oct 2014 - 02:05, said:

KarenBravo, on 31 Oct 2014 - 01:49, said:KarenBravo, on 31 Oct 2014 - 01:49, said:KarenBravo, on 31 Oct 2014 - 01:49, said:

Why does everyone think that samples were sent to a laboratory in Singapore?

I'm pretty sure they weren't though, would appreciate a link if they were.

Initial samples form the victims WERE sent to SP for analyses. That's how they could determine it was asian dna.

It was reported at the beginning of the investigation that DNA samples had to be sent to Singapore to establish ethnicity, yet in the Kirsty Jones case the DNA of her attacker was established as "Asian" 14 years ago. Were these samples tested in Thailand or elsewhere? If they were tested in Thailand 14 years ago, and the Thais were able to establish ethnicity then, why would the DNA in the present case need to be tested in Singapore?

I have been reading up on the Kirsty Jones case and there are so many parallels with the Koh Tao case in the way it was handled by the RTP, the Foreign Office and the British police. Firstly the crime scene was contaminated, farangs (western and Burmese) were targetted, DNA tests were mishandled or falsified, the British police who came to Thailand to investigate were thwarted at every turn, and a massive cover-up ensued. In the end Anglo-Thai relations were paramount so the British investigators had to back off and the case was never solved So, just like with Kirsty Jones, I feel there will never be justice for Hannah and David.

[IslandLover]

BoristheBlade, on 31 Oct 2014 - 03:16, said:

That diving school of your must really me suffering, hey Claus

If it is the diving school I am thinking of - you know the one with the same name as the creature that rose from the ashes - then Hannah went diving with them while she was on Koh Tao. At least, that is what I read a couple of days ago (don't ask me for the link because I can't remember). Everything seems to be linked in this case: diving school, AC Bar, owners of said establishments etc., etc.

[IslandLover]

Johnsen, on 31 Oct 2014 - 03:16, said:

Still would love to know what football team the number 9 shirt promotes... Whose colours are they????

It could be either Manchester United or Liverpool FC - both are red. I cannot read the name of the player on the back from the CCTV image. I noticed that some of the key people in this case have the Man UTD logo displayed on their facebook. On the other hand it could just as easily be a "Made in Thailand" copy of a football shirt. However, in my experience, the Thais seem to favour Man UTD and Liverpool FC football teams. Man UTD is also my team

[KarenBravo]

Back in the day one way to test if somebody being accused of a witch was to tie waits to her and put her in water. If she didn't sink and die then they would know she was a witch. The conspiracy folks have got to this same point of losing touch with reality and are so caught up in this crowd mentality of accusation that they don't even realize how ignorant and out of touch with reality they have become. It is like lemmings following each other off a cliff, they just can't help themselves and are too far gone to pull themselves back.

Holy smoke I did'nt know that the english ppl know this extraordinary Witch test, this was very common in the dark middle age in Germany too and 99,99% of these ppl who drowned or burnt where innocent.

So......you are saying that 0.01% of these "witches were guilty? This means you believe in witches, witch-craft and black magic.

I put it to you that 100% of these unfortunates were innocent.

[IslandLover]

nev, on 31 Oct 2014 - 03:36, said:nev, on 31 Oct 2014 - 03:36, said:

BoristheBlade, on 31 Oct 2014 - 03:24, said:BoristheBlade, on 31 Oct 2014 - 03:24, said:

Eighth Region Police Command commissioner Pol Lt-Gen Panya Mamen identified the first suspect as Mon.

He said both suspects were captured by CCTV cameras and the police have gathered enough evidence to implicate them in the murders.

I must be missing something, the cctv released shows only one person, but people say there are two minutes of the said cctv missing

Has anyone other than Policeman Panya seen this video? why is two minutes missing, did they accidentally erase the information?

The two minutes missing will never be seen again.

I came across an interesting CCTV image the other day (no it was not from CSI LA). What it shows is two people (farang and Thai girl?) walking 3 seconds ahead of the "running man" if the timestamps are genuine. They appear to be from the same camera in front of the same shop. To my knowledge, these two images have never been shown side-by-side before, although both have been separately published in the international press. I wonder if this couple was ever traced and questioned about what they may have seen that night?

[ClutchClark]

nev, on 31 Oct 2014 - 03:36, said:

BoristheBlade, on 31 Oct 2014 - 03:24, said:

Eighth Region Police Command commissioner Pol Lt-Gen Panya Mamen identified the first suspect as Mon.

He said both suspects were captured by CCTV cameras and the police have gathered enough evidence to implicate them in the murders.

I must be missing something, the cctv released shows only one person, but people say there are two minutes of the said cctv missing

Has anyone other than Policeman Panya seen this video? why is two minutes missing, did they accidentally erase the information?

The two minutes missing will never be seen again.

I came across an interesting CCTV image the other day (no it was not from CSI LA). What it shows is two people (farang and Thai girl?) walking 3 seconds ahead of the "running man" if the timestamp is to be believed. To my knowledge, these two images have never been shown side-by-side before, although both have been separately published in the international press. I wonder if the couple was ever traced and questioned about what they many have seen that night?

Isn't that something that the shirtless guy has no blood on him at all.

No blood splatter. No transfer of blood on his shorts from bodily contact during sexual assault.

Was the phot taken before the attack?

[JohnThailandJohn]

Back in the day one way to test if somebody being accused of a witch was to tie waits to her and put her in water. If she didn't sink and die then they would know she was a witch. The conspiracy folks have got to this same point of losing touch with reality and are so caught up in this crowd mentality of accusation that they don't even realize how ignorant and out of touch with reality they have become. It is like lemmings following each other off a cliff, they just can't help themselves and are too far gone to pull themselves back.

Holy smoke I did'nt know that the english ppl know this extraordinary Witch test, this was very common in the dark middle age in Germany too and 99,99% of these ppl who drowned or burnt where innocent.

So......you are saying that 0.01% of these "witches were guilty? This means you believe in witches, witch-craft and black magic.

I put it to you that 100% of these unfortunates were innocent.

You only think that because there are no witches now ... this procedure got rid of them all long ago

[Local Drunk]

Back in the day one way to test if somebody being accused of a witch was to tie waits to her and put her in water. If she didn't sink and die then they would know she was a witch. The conspiracy folks have got to this same point of losing touch with reality and are so caught up in this crowd mentality of accusation that they don't even realize how ignorant and out of touch with reality they have become. It is like lemmings following each other off a cliff, they just can't help themselves and are too far gone to pull themselves back.

Holy smoke I did'nt know that the english ppl know this extraordinary Witch test, this was very common in the dark middle age in Germany too and 99,99% of these ppl who drowned or burnt where innocent.

They was defamed for different reasons, for example a pretty girl denied to having sex with some powerful ppl this was good enough to defame her as a witch.

Or some ppl who where jealous about other ppl fortune, it was easy for them to defame others, when they got powerful witnesses on their site.

After the Witches was burned, they was automaticly excommunicated, means their fortune was confiscated and shared between the judge and the witnesses.

When there are any similarities to the Koh Tao case, it's maybe just random!!???

I my opinion we are on the way back to the dark middleage.

I guess, how this case will solved can be a milestone to a better world or vice versa.

I still hope the best, but expect the worst.

Carpe diem

Ah... The Spanish Inquisition, Salem, The Reign on Terror in France and Monty Python come to mind here.

[BoristheBlade]

The one that rises from the ashes and has some of it's staff entertaining us on here with there tales of family virtues

BoristheBlade, on 31 Oct 2014 - 03:16, said:

That diving school of your must really me suffering, hey Claus

If it is the diving school I am thinking of - you know the one with the same name as the creature that rose from the ashes - then Hannah went diving with them while she was on Koh Tao. At least, that is what I read a couple of days ago (don't ask me for the link because I can't remember). Everything seems to be linked in this case: diving school, AC Bar, owners of said establishments etc., etc.

[BoristheBlade]

I would also have expected the said individual to show great sympathy with the freinds and relatives of the victims, if only for good PR....silence.........

Obviously a man with high class manners and morals

Perhaps looking at the situation on Koh Tao it might have been expected on a small island for the Headman to have done more to help try to solve this case from the beginning.

It is after all his island...a gruesome double murder....seems like there was more obstruction than desire to catch the criminals involved.

Makes you wonder what the role of a headman is on these islands and small outlying areas?

[retarius]

Guess he knows the results of the test before it is even done.

[BoristheBlade]

We all did, anyway Nomsod has already stated he was in Bangkok that day, so how would it be possible for his DNA to be on the victims?

Guess he knows the results of the test before it is even done.

[German Viking]

Back in the day one way to test if somebody being accused of a witch was to tie waits to her and put her in water. If she didn't sink and die then they would know she was a witch. The conspiracy folks have got to this same point of losing touch with reality and are so caught up in this crowd mentality of accusation that they don't even realize how ignorant and out of touch with reality they have become. It is like lemmings following each other off a cliff, they just can't help themselves and are too far gone to pull themselves back.

Holy smoke I did'nt know that the english ppl know this extraordinary Witch test, this was very common in the dark middle age in Germany too and 99,99% of these ppl who drowned or burnt where innocent.

So......you are saying that 0.01% of these "witches were guilty? This means you believe in witches, witch-craft and black magic.

I put it to you that 100% of these unfortunates were innocent.

Nobody is real innocent in general, the Question is, is it worth a dead sentence,

this was the reason not to take 100%.

Anyway it is a shame this kind of justice, the top was the Inquisition.

I see some similarities in this case for example torture.

We will see how this investigation continues and the following trail.

I hope it will be fair in general.

[atyclb]

How anyone can ignore the overwhelming evidence on CSILA Facebook page

LMAO

The same site that has brought one disproved lunatic conspiracy after another starting with the there being positive that police planted at the Burmese suspects home the same phone they showed to the press early on in the case. This was the original theory which created a huge drive to their site but of course later proved to be 100% BS and just caused the posters there to double down on more nonsense speculation base conspiracy theories they claim to be facts..

l

ets see, in science, math, medicine many "theorists" start out with a theory. many physicists labelled einstein a crackpot for his theories that some of which took decades to prove correct.

one need not be einstein to look at the kt murders. the actors, their statements, and their behaviors to theorize rational scenarios.

some conspiracy theorists thought "the gulf of tonkin" even was not as it was reported. in case a mod sees my reference to "gulf of tonkin" research it before automatically deleting it as a conspiracy theory especially since government documents released confirm it was indeed a false flag event and was presented in the media to the american people as a pretext to war.

I have a theory; my theory is that some TV posters are not the brightest stars in the sky. Am I a nut?

[German Viking]

LATEST

DNA testing of Varot Toovichien, the son of influential Koh Tao village headman and owner of AC Bar on the resort island, by the Institute of Forensic Medicine of the Police General Hospital showed no match with the DNA samples found on the slain British backpacker Ms Hannah Witheridge, and samples collected at other scenes.

But the police said they have to wait for the testing results of three other hospitals, Chulalongkorn, Siriraj, and Ramathibodi.

Source: http://englishnews.thaipbs.or.th/70152/

-- Thai PBS 2014-10-31

My apologies to Nomsod and his family - I thought he would be guilty.

PPl who are involved in any corruption are not innocent, in general.

There is no reason for any apology, caused this family plays a dirty game.

[Bleacher Bum East]

There's no question that a Thai commited the crime, but what hasn't been discussed is motive. What's the reason? Did the two britons piss off the murder, or make him lose face?

Only the murderers/rapists know for sure, but since you asked, here's a plausible scenario:

Party beach, thousands of partying farang, drunk, every night. Several handsome young Thais, some of whom run a bar or are family and friends with bar owners. Cute farang chicks get drunk, they might get slipped a date-rape drug, they get silly and loose, they're easy prey for guys who want to have some sexual fun on the beach, particularly late at night.

The supposed scenario, more specifically: very cute female stays late at bar. Thai dude asks (about David), "is that your boyfriend?" she says 'no.' (which is strictly true). Thai guy (or guys) may or may not have slipped her a date-rape drug, but it's likely she's tipsy from drinking (as are nearly every one of the farang and Thais out partying that night). Thai guy(s) get her to walk out to the beach. David follows. Thai guy(s) start by seducing gal, then find that doesn't work well enough, then resorts to force. David (who may have been sidelined with talking to someone else) notices a struggle. He goes to assist Hannah, is struck in the right side of the neck and head (probably by a left-hander, another of the hundreds of things Thai cops either didn't gauge or disregarded as unimportant). The wounds are indicative of a stubby blade (held in fist) and are nothing like a blunt garden hoe. Note: cops still don't have an idea of the weapon used on David. They said David's blood was not on the hoe, yet they used the hoe in the reenactment, completely disregarding the types of wounds).

I could go on with the supposed crime scene, but I'll stop here for brevity.

Can 'Thaiman' now get a better idea of motive? Drunk horny men, late at night, who are used to seducing many women, are thwarted from sex by a very cute blonde gal, ....that's motive, my friend. Add to that, possible disparaging remarks aimed at Thais, and that becomes explosive. If you just casually give the finger to a Thai man, he goes apeshit ballistic. A farang might just give the finger back and say 'fk you' in a monotone.

I posted this earlier when someone said who else (other as depicted in the scenario above) might have motive with no need to sop for brevity:

So if I were a prosecuting attorney, here is (hypothetically) what I might say:

People have commented that a crime of this brutality could only have been perpetrated in extreme passion such as one who has suffered rejection, humiliation, and losing face by having his advances denied by the deceased UK female.

But here may be another source of extreme passion: 2 young men from another country have been working low-paying menial jobs on the island for 2 years. Every day they see scantily clad Western females and know that Western males are -- for the proper consideration which they certainly lack -- able to have sex with Thai females and maybe even the females from their own country whom they covet. One day they are out on the beach at 4AM and the hear the sounds of love making close by and figure this may be the chance that has been gnawing away at them for years. And the rest happened when things just got out of control.

And then the razz squad kicked in.

JL---If you were a prosecuting attorney putting this forward as a potential motive, it wouldn't be the razz squad that kicked in, it would be the defense attorney. Here is what he might say in response:

The two accused men had everything to lose and very little to gain. The jobs they had on the island were their best means of supporting themselves and more importantly their families. Committing a crime like this would potentially throw everything they had away for a slim chance of having rape sex with no certainty of monetary gain (which in their personal circumstance would have been a much more believable motive).

There was a high probability that they would not be successful in their crime, given that they were two small men attacking a very large man and a woman of equal size to them. Even if it was a sneak attack from behind, David was not killed with the hoe. So that means they would have to have gotten very close with a small weapon and knocked him out instantly without him seeing anything coming, and then be able to subdue Hannah without her screaming and being heard or running away.

There was a high probability they would get caught and had no way to protect themselves. This was not a remote location, many people knew they often came to that place to sing and drink, and since they'd already been there for hours that night, it was likely that they would automatically be the first suspects, which they were. And they had nobody to protect them if the got caught.

There was no evidence that either of these men had ever shown any violent tendency or aggression towards woman. An attack like this as a one time act of extreme aggression by two men with no such history is unlikely. (Assuming there was no such history).

The extremely violent results of the attack shows a level of depravity that does not match the "horny sexually unfulfilled migrant worker" profile.

If this were the motive, the accused men would not have chosen a woman accompanied by a very large young man. As the "prosecutor" said, thousands of beautiful, scantily clad women came through the island each year. Many could be found wandering the beaches or even more remote locations on their own, or without a large man with them. So it makes no sense for these two to satisfy their repressed sexual needs by attacking a large man when many more vulnerable women could easily be found.

These arguments would not entirely eliminate the prosecutor's theory of motive, but the defense would argue that they would cast such a huge amount of doubt on the prosecutor's theoretical motive to render it highly improbable. Certainly not even close to a clear motive beyond a reasonable doubt.

This kind of prosecutor/defense analysis could be made with respect to every piece of evidence the prosecutor may offer.

And the Thai prosecutor is likely performing this analysis himself to predict what will happen under the public spotlight if and when he takes the case to trial.

This is interesting.

Should we next try "means"?

[DennisF]

There's no question that a Thai commited the crime, but what hasn't been discussed is motive. What's the reason? Did the two britons piss off the murder, or make him lose face?

Only the murderers/rapists know for sure, but since you asked, here's a plausible scenario:

Party beach, thousands of partying farang, drunk, every night. Several handsome young Thais, some of whom run a bar or are family and friends with bar owners. Cute farang chicks get drunk, they might get slipped a date-rape drug, they get silly and loose, they're easy prey for guys who want to have some sexual fun on the beach, particularly late at night.

The supposed scenario, more specifically: very cute female stays late at bar. Thai dude asks (about David), "is that your boyfriend?" she says 'no.' (which is strictly true). Thai guy (or guys) may or may not have slipped her a date-rape drug, but it's likely she's tipsy from drinking (as are nearly every one of the farang and Thais out partying that night). Thai guy(s) get her to walk out to the beach. David follows. Thai guy(s) start by seducing gal, then find that doesn't work well enough, then resorts to force. David (who may have been sidelined with talking to someone else) notices a struggle. He goes to assist Hannah, is struck in the right side of the neck and head (probably by a left-hander, another of the hundreds of things Thai cops either didn't gauge or disregarded as unimportant). The wounds are indicative of a stubby blade (held in fist) and are nothing like a blunt garden hoe. Note: cops still don't have an idea of the weapon used on David. They said David's blood was not on the hoe, yet they used the hoe in the reenactment, completely disregarding the types of wounds).

I could go on with the supposed crime scene, but I'll stop here for brevity.

Can 'Thaiman' now get a better idea of motive? Drunk horny men, late at night, who are used to seducing many women, are thwarted from sex by a very cute blonde gal, ....that's motive, my friend. Add to that, possible disparaging remarks aimed at Thais, and that becomes explosive. If you just casually give the finger to a Thai man, he goes apeshit ballistic. A farang might just give the finger back and say 'fk you' in a monotone.

I posted this earlier when someone said who else (other as depicted in the scenario above) might have motive with no need to sop for brevity:

So if I were a prosecuting attorney, here is (hypothetically) what I might say:

People have commented that a crime of this brutality could only have been perpetrated in extreme passion such as one who has suffered rejection, humiliation, and losing face by having his advances denied by the deceased UK female.

But here may be another source of extreme passion: 2 young men from another country have been working low-paying menial jobs on the island for 2 years. Every day they see scantily clad Western females and know that Western males are -- for the proper consideration which they certainly lack -- able to have sex with Thai females and maybe even the females from their own country whom they covet. One day they are out on the beach at 4AM and the hear the sounds of love making close by and figure this may be the chance that has been gnawing away at them for years. And the rest happened when things just got out of control.

And then the razz squad kicked in.

JL---If you were a prosecuting attorney putting this forward as a potential motive, it wouldn't be the razz squad that kicked in, it would be the defense attorney. Here is what he might say in response:

The two accused men had everything to lose and very little to gain. The jobs they had on the island were their best means of supporting themselves and more importantly their families. Committing a crime like this would potentially throw everything they had away for a slim chance of having rape sex with no certainty of monetary gain (which in their personal circumstance would have been a much more believable motive).

There was a high probability that they would not be successful in their crime, given that they were two small men attacking a very large man and a woman of equal size to them. Even if it was a sneak attack from behind, David was not killed with the hoe. So that means they would have to have gotten very close with a small weapon and knocked him out instantly without him seeing anything coming, and then be able to subdue Hannah without her screaming and being heard or running away.

There was a high probability they would get caught and had no way to protect themselves. This was not a remote location, many people knew they often came to that place to sing and drink, and since they'd already been there for hours that night, it was likely that they would automatically be the first suspects, which they were. And they had nobody to protect them if the got caught.

There was no evidence that either of these men had ever shown any violent tendency or aggression towards woman. An attack like this as a one time act of extreme aggression by two men with no such history is unlikely. (Assuming there was no such history).

The extremely violent results of the attack shows a level of depravity that does not match the "horny sexually unfulfilled migrant worker" profile.

If this were the motive, the accused men would not have chosen a woman accompanied by a very large young man. As the "prosecutor" said, thousands of beautiful, scantily clad women came through the island each year. Many could be found wandering the beaches or even more remote locations on their own, or without a large man with them. So it makes no sense for these two to satisfy their repressed sexual needs by attacking a large man when many more vulnerable women could easily be found.

These arguments would not entirely eliminate the prosecutor's theory of motive, but the defense would argue that they would cast such a huge amount of doubt on the prosecutor's theoretical motive to render it highly improbable. Certainly not even close to a clear motive beyond a reasonable doubt.

This kind of prosecutor/defense analysis could be made with respect to every piece of evidence the prosecutor may offer.

And the Thai prosecutor is likely performing this analysis himself to predict what will happen under the public spotlight if and when he takes the case to trial.

This is interesting.

Should we next try "means"?

Ive got a better idea.

Can we stop with all the BS and stick to FACTS.

FACTS are what we know,

As far as I am aware this forum has not made the move towards interviewing potential lawyers.

Get real.

[Bleacher Bum East]

I posted this earlier when someone said who else (other as depicted in the scenario above) might have motive with no need to sop for brevity:

So if I were a prosecuting attorney, here is (hypothetically) what I might say:

People have commented that a crime of this brutality could only have been perpetrated in extreme passion such as one who has suffered rejection, humiliation, and losing face by having his advances denied by the deceased UK female.

But here may be another source of extreme passion: 2 young men from another country have been working low-paying menial jobs on the island for 2 years. Every day they see scantily clad Western females and know that Western males are -- for the proper consideration which they certainly lack -- able to have sex with Thai females and maybe even the females from their own country whom they covet. One day they are out on the beach at 4AM and the hear the sounds of love making close by and figure this may be the chance that has been gnawing away at them for years. And the rest happened when things just got out of control.

And then the razz squad kicked in.

JL---If you were a prosecuting attorney putting this forward as a potential motive, it wouldn't be the razz squad that kicked in, it would be the defense attorney. Here is what he might say in response:

The two accused men had everything to lose and very little to gain. The jobs they had on the island were their best means of supporting themselves and more importantly their families. Committing a crime like this would potentially throw everything they had away for a slim chance of having rape sex with no certainty of monetary gain (which in their personal circumstance would have been a much more believable motive).

There was a high probability that they would not be successful in their crime, given that they were two small men attacking a very large man and a woman of equal size to them. Even if it was a sneak attack from behind, David was not killed with the hoe. So that means they would have to have gotten very close with a small weapon and knocked him out instantly without him seeing anything coming, and then be able to subdue Hannah without her screaming and being heard or running away.

There was a high probability they would get caught and had no way to protect themselves. This was not a remote location, many people knew they often came to that place to sing and drink, and since they'd already been there for hours that night, it was likely that they would automatically be the first suspects, which they were. And they had nobody to protect them if the got caught.

There was no evidence that either of these men had ever shown any violent tendency or aggression towards woman. An attack like this as a one time act of extreme aggression by two men with no such history is unlikely. (Assuming there was no such history).

The extremely violent results of the attack shows a level of depravity that does not match the "horny sexually unfulfilled migrant worker" profile.

If this were the motive, the accused men would not have chosen a woman accompanied by a very large young man. As the "prosecutor" said, thousands of beautiful, scantily clad women came through the island each year. Many could be found wandering the beaches or even more remote locations on their own, or without a large man with them. So it makes no sense for these two to satisfy their repressed sexual needs by attacking a large man when many more vulnerable women could easily be found.

These arguments would not entirely eliminate the prosecutor's theory of motive, but the defense would argue that they would cast such a huge amount of doubt on the prosecutor's theoretical motive to render it highly improbable. Certainly not even close to a clear motive beyond a reasonable doubt.

This kind of prosecutor/defense analysis could be made with respect to every piece of evidence the prosecutor may offer.

And the Thai prosecutor is likely performing this analysis himself to predict what will happen under the public spotlight if and when he takes the case to trial.

This is interesting.

Should we next try "means"?

Ive got a better idea.

Can we stop with all the BS and stick to FACTS.

FACTS are what we know,

As far as I am aware this forum has not made the move towards interviewing potential lawyers.

Get real.

The "fact" is that motive will be a key issue at trial and is a key issue in the prosecutor deciding to bring the case to trial.

Therefore, motive will be a key issue in whether Hannah and David's families receive justice and in whether the killers are removed from the chance of doing this again.

In addition, how these key issues are analyzed and argued have a huge impact on whether the investigation and trial (if there is one) are fair.

These things matter and will have real impact, and are highly worthy of discussion.

[DennisF]

I posted this earlier when someone said who else (other as depicted in the scenario above) might have motive with no need to sop for brevity:

So if I were a prosecuting attorney, here is (hypothetically) what I might say:

People have commented that a crime of this brutality could only have been perpetrated in extreme passion such as one who has suffered rejection, humiliation, and losing face by having his advances denied by the deceased UK female.

But here may be another source of extreme passion: 2 young men from another country have been working low-paying menial jobs on the island for 2 years. Every day they see scantily clad Western females and know that Western males are -- for the proper consideration which they certainly lack -- able to have sex with Thai females and maybe even the females from their own country whom they covet. One day they are out on the beach at 4AM and the hear the sounds of love making close by and figure this may be the chance that has been gnawing away at them for years. And the rest happened when things just got out of control.

And then the razz squad kicked in.

JL---If you were a prosecuting attorney putting this forward as a potential motive, it wouldn't be the razz squad that kicked in, it would be the defense attorney. Here is what he might say in response:

The two accused men had everything to lose and very little to gain. The jobs they had on the island were their best means of supporting themselves and more importantly their families. Committing a crime like this would potentially throw everything they had away for a slim chance of having rape sex with no certainty of monetary gain (which in their personal circumstance would have been a much more believable motive).

There was a high probability that they would not be successful in their crime, given that they were two small men attacking a very large man and a woman of equal size to them. Even if it was a sneak attack from behind, David was not killed with the hoe. So that means they would have to have gotten very close with a small weapon and knocked him out instantly without him seeing anything coming, and then be able to subdue Hannah without her screaming and being heard or running away.

There was a high probability they would get caught and had no way to protect themselves. This was not a remote location, many people knew they often came to that place to sing and drink, and since they'd already been there for hours that night, it was likely that they would automatically be the first suspects, which they were. And they had nobody to protect them if the got caught.

There was no evidence that either of these men had ever shown any violent tendency or aggression towards woman. An attack like this as a one time act of extreme aggression by two men with no such history is unlikely. (Assuming there was no such history).

The extremely violent results of the attack shows a level of depravity that does not match the "horny sexually unfulfilled migrant worker" profile.

If this were the motive, the accused men would not have chosen a woman accompanied by a very large young man. As the "prosecutor" said, thousands of beautiful, scantily clad women came through the island each year. Many could be found wandering the beaches or even more remote locations on their own, or without a large man with them. So it makes no sense for these two to satisfy their repressed sexual needs by attacking a large man when many more vulnerable women could easily be found.

These arguments would not entirely eliminate the prosecutor's theory of motive, but the defense would argue that they would cast such a huge amount of doubt on the prosecutor's theoretical motive to render it highly improbable. Certainly not even close to a clear motive beyond a reasonable doubt.

This kind of prosecutor/defense analysis could be made with respect to every piece of evidence the prosecutor may offer.

And the Thai prosecutor is likely performing this analysis himself to predict what will happen under the public spotlight if and when he takes the case to trial.

This is interesting.

Should we next try "means"?

Ive got a better idea.

Can we stop with all the BS and stick to FACTS.

FACTS are what we know,

As far as I am aware this forum has not made the move towards interviewing potential lawyers.

Get real.

The "fact" is that motive will be a key issue at trial and is a key issue in the prosecutor deciding to bring the case to trial.

Therefore, motive will be a key issue in whether Hannah and David's families receive justice and in whether the killers are removed from the chance of doing this again.

In addition, how these key issues are analyzed and argued have a huge impact on whether the investigation and trial (if there is one) are fair.

These things matter and will have real impact, and are highly worthy of discussion.

It falls under the umbrella of supposition and theory not discussion.

Discussion would be if there was any value in the discussion and as there is no one, AFAIK, on this forum who will participate or have input into the trial its just more

useless dialogue for the sake of it.

Speculation is useless.

[bigjules007]

Back in the day one way to test if somebody being accused of a witch was to tie waits to her and put her in water. If she didn't sink and die then they would know she was a witch. The conspiracy folks have got to this same point of losing touch with reality and are so caught up in this crowd mentality of accusation that they don't even realize how ignorant and out of touch with reality they have become. It is like lemmings following each other off a cliff, they just can't help themselves and are too far gone to pull themselves back.

Holy smoke I did'nt know that the english ppl know this extraordinary Witch test, this was very common in the dark middle age in Germany too and 99,99% of these ppl who drowned or burnt where innocent.

Carpe diem

Links showing certified stats please.

[ParadiseLost]

Johnsen, on 31 Oct 2014 - 03:16, said:

Still would love to know what football team the number 9 shirt promotes... Whose colours are they????

It could be either Manchester United or Liverpool FC - both are red. I cannot read the name of the player on the back from the CCTV image. I noticed that some of the key people in this case have the Man UTD logo displayed on their facebook. On the other hand it could just as easily be a "Made in Thailand" copy of a football shirt. However, in my experience, the Thais seem to favour Man UTD and Liverpool FC football teams. Man UTD is also my team

You may as well forget about the football shirt; there have been no posts from the two defenders of the indefensible to 'run interference'...

Sure way of telling if you are on the wrong trail imo.

[Bleacher Bum East]

Ive got a better idea.

Can we stop with all the BS and stick to FACTS.

FACTS are what we know,

As far as I am aware this forum has not made the move towards interviewing potential lawyers.

Get real.

The "fact" is that motive will be a key issue at trial and is a key issue in the prosecutor deciding to bring the case to trial.

Therefore, motive will be a key issue in whether Hannah and David's families receive justice and in whether the killers are removed from the chance of doing this again.

In addition, how these key issues are analyzed and argued have a huge impact on whether the investigation and trial (if there is one) are fair.

These things matter and will have real impact, and are highly worthy of discussion.

It falls under the umbrella of supposition and theory not discussion.

Discussion would be if there was any value in the discussion and as there is no one, AFAIK, on this forum who will participate or have input into the trial its just more

useless dialogue for the sake of it.

Speculation is useless.

I completely disagree with you . . . this is not speculation it is an analysis/debate of an important aspect of the case and making inferences based on facts that are known. This is exactly what the judge will hear and decide on, and what independent professional observers will make a judgment on in deciding whether the trial was fair and a just result was achieved.

But you're entitled to your opinion.

And we've both stated our position so can now let others make up their own minds about whether it's a worthwhile matter to consider and discuss.

[German Viking]

CCTV footage of Nomsod in BKK on the [email protected] pm (check 3,44 minutes)

• So, if he was on the island he must have left after this footage and probably have traveled to Koh Tao by plane to Samui + boat. This means there MUST be other CCTV footage from somewhere (airport, airport lounge whatever). I think it will be impossible to hide this and they must assume this will emerge one day
• it seems unlikely he traveled by car to Chumpon on a Sunday afternoon if he needed to attend university on Monday morning. It just takes too long and if he came back on the night of the 15th, how? By car? Or by Plane? There must be CCTV footage somewhere. Same as above, think it will be impossible to hide this and again, they must assume this will emerge one day.
• The girl in the elevator MUST remember this encounter when she sees this footage? right? Don't you think so? And what about this Timber table? Should be relatively easy to proof where it was on the 13th? 12th? How long do they keep these tapes? Or do they work like a voice recorder in a plane? Can we see some tapes from the 13th, 12th where this table was?

Anyway, although many (including myself) believe he is involved will have a hard time to argue with all this......

Personally I think his phone record needs to checked as well, If he was not there, my guess is, he still knows who was involved.

If it turns out he was on the island, this whole tape must have been doctored, even if easy, what about other CCTV footage, airport lounges, airports, gas stations whatever? Passenger lists? You name it.........you can't hide this nowadays!

If he was on the island on the night of the murder, why would they lie? This makes no sense..

You are right, for normal ppl who believe in law and order and a police who take care of this rules, make it no sence, but in the first time they was arrogant enough and believed only in 1 thing that the power of their money make them untouchable.

This is not the first case they wiped off, caused of their money, there was no investigation at all. They defeated all who was asking after the truth(Parents) or punishment.

They was sure they can wiping also this case under the carpet as all the other cases before, caused publicity like this is very bad for the business.

[German Viking]

CCTV footage of Nomsod in BKK on the [email protected] pm (check 3,44 minutes)

• So, if he was on the island he must have left after this footage and probably have traveled to Koh Tao by plane to Samui + boat. This means there MUST be other CCTV footage from somewhere (airport, airport lounge whatever). I think it will be impossible to hide this and they must assume this will emerge one day
• it seems unlikely he traveled by car to Chumpon on a Sunday afternoon if he needed to attend university on Monday morning. It just takes too long and if he came back on the night of the 15th, how? By car? Or by Plane? There must be CCTV footage somewhere. Same as above, think it will be impossible to hide this and again, they must assume this will emerge one day.
• The girl in the elevator MUST remember this encounter when she sees this footage? right? Don't you think so? And what about this Timber table? Should be relatively easy to proof where it was on the 13th? 12th? How long do they keep these tapes? Or do they work like a voice recorder in a plane? Can we see some tapes from the 13th, 12th where this table was?

Anyway, although many (including myself) believe he is involved will have a hard time to argue with all this......

Personally I think his phone record needs to checked as well, If he was not there, my guess is, he still knows who was involved.

If it turns out he was on the island, this whole tape must have been doctored, even if easy, what about other CCTV footage, airport lounges, airports, gas stations whatever? Passenger lists? You name it.........you can't hide this nowadays!

If he was on the island on the night of the murder, why would they lie? This makes no sense..

You are right, for normal ppl who believe in law and order and a police who take care of this rules, make it no sence, but in the first time they was arrogant enough and believed only in 1 thing that the power of their money make them untouchable.

This is not the first case they wiped off, caused of their money, there was no investigation at all. They defeated all who was asking after the truth(Parents) or punishment.

They was sure they can wiping also this case under the carpet as all the other cases before, caused publicity like this is very bad for the business.