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Koh Tao murders: Lawyer protests Myanmar men detention


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Posted

The only possible excluded people and or news agencies would be from the UK.

So still nobody speaking?

Not one German, Italian, Spanish, French, Israeli.... American, Russian, Irish... Nobody.

I do not know where you get the time, to scour all press from these countries is impressive. Maybe they have spoken and it has been reported to the police? we don't know. Because it has not been reported does not make it untrue and again because it has been reported does not make it true. It is uncommon but not unheard of for a particular countries press to be interested in another countries citizens murdered in a third country by persons unknown and then even more uncommon for them to pay for this information. If it did happen this information would then be passed on to police and Soutpeel amongst others has told you why it would not be divulged.

BTW as far as I have been able to determine, since there will be no judicial action in the UK, there is no sub judice reasons that could be applied here

JD: How did you determine that the term "judicial action" is appropriate to determining if sub judice applies?

Can you tell us how you have made the determination that sub judice would not apply to a coroner's inquest because there will be no "judicial action"?

Links to relevant sections of UK statutory or case law?

As far as I have been able to determine, sub judice applies to "legal proceedings" and that the coroner's inquest is a legal proceeding to which sub judice applies.

I assume you disagree with the reasons and support that were given to you on a previous thread as to why this is the case.

Can you tell us why you disagree?

Here is the support for my determination:

http://www.channel4.com/producers-handbook/media-law/contempt-and-reporting-legal-proceedings/contempt-or-sub-judice-rules

"Also known as the 'sub-judice' rules, contempt is a criminal offence. There are two types of contempt: statutory and common law. Both involve interfering with legal proceedings in the UK...."

"There is no exhaustive list of what constitutes "legal proceedings" but it includes, for example, the main courts: Magistrates' Court, County Court, High Court and also Inquests, Military Courts and Industrial Tribunals.
". . . once legal proceedings become "active", it is a criminal offence for media organisations to broadcast material [this is a television producer's website] which would create "a substantial risk of serious prejudice" to the proceedings."
"It is not just potential jurors who might be prejudiced by what is broadcast. Witnesses may also be prejudiced by what they see or hear on television [this is a television producer's website]."
The Parliament's sub judice rule applies to coroner's inquests:
"Parliament’s sub judice rule effectively prevents debate on individual cases while they are
active before the courts . . . .We have concluded that coroners’ courts should remain within the scope of the House’s sub judice rule. This is justified firstly by the risk of prejudice to specific inquests and
secondly on the grounds of comity and non-interference with the judiciary."
Contempt of Court Act 1981
The strict liability rule.
"In this Act “the strict liability rule” means the rule of law whereby conduct may be treated as a contempt of court as tending to interfere with the course of justice in particular legal proceedings regardless of intent to do so.

https://www.gov.uk/g...po-coroners.pdf

The Role of the Coroner
Section 6.1 The coroner is an independent judicial officer with legal responsibility for investigating the cause and circumstances of any death which may be violent, unnatural, sudden, with unknown cause . . .
Death Overseas Section 6.3
. . . coroners are responsible for investigating the circumstances giving rise to the deaths of those persons whose bodies lie or are brought into their district.
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Posted

In English law, the term was correctly used to describe material which would prejudice court proceedings by publication before 1981. Sub judice is now irrelevant to journalists because of the introduction of the Contempt of Court Act 1981. Under Section 2 of the Act, a substantial risk of serious prejudice can only be created by a media report when proceedings are active. Proceedings become active when there is an arrest, oral charge, issue of a warrant, or a summons.

Source : wiki

There's no case before a court nor the risk of a case being before a court in the UK.

Thus no witnesses in a court case etc

Posted

In English law, the term was correctly used to describe material which would prejudice court proceedings by publication before 1981. Sub judice is now irrelevant to journalists because of the introduction of the Contempt of Court Act 1981. Under Section 2 of the Act, a substantial risk of serious prejudice can only be created by a media report when proceedings are active. Proceedings become active when there is an arrest, oral charge, issue of a warrant, or a summons.

Source : wiki

There's no case before a court nor the risk of a case being before a court in the UK.

Thus no witnesses in a court case etc

Are you serious?

That's your response to my comment?

A Wikipedia article with no citations related to English law and this banner on top: "This article needs additional citations for verification. Please help improve this article by adding citations to reliable sources. Unsourced material may be challenged and removed."

No defense of or citation for your use of the phrase "judicial action", another in a growing list of legal terms you have thrown out for which you had no support and which were misleadingly irrelevant to the discussion.

No response to the several citations I provided to reliable UK sources regarding UK law.

Hold yourself to the same standards you hold others every day JD.

And please tell me, how would you respond to this direct quote from Section 39 of the Second Report of Session 2005–06 of the UK House of Commons Procedure Committee titled "Application of the sub

judice rule to proceedings in coroners’ courts".
"The Contempt of Court Act applies to coroners courts in the same way that it applies to other courts."
I'm sure an un-sourced Wiki article trumps a UK House of Commons report any day ;)
Posted

No citation you offered covered cases which could never be tried in a UK court

Once again:

This is a direct quote from Section 39 of the Second Report of Session 2005–06 of the UK House of Commons Procedure Committee titled "Application of the sub

judice rule to proceedings in coroners’ courts".
"The Contempt of Court Act applies to coroners courts in the same way that it applies to other courts."
What my citations say is that sub judice applies to coroners inquests, which is a "legal proceeding" covered by the law of sub judice regardless of whether there will ever be a "judicial action" in which there is a "trial". It is not necessary for the case ever to be "tried" in a UK court for sub judice to apply . . . and you provide absolutely no support for your continued insistence that it is necessary.
Have a nice day JD . . . I had previously thought that you raised some interesting issues at times that would be worth discussing with you. I've now seen over time that you want to make no more effort in your arguments than many of the intellectually lazy posters you joust with. I'll leave you and them to go round in circles of meaningless blather with each other since you clearly don't want to have a serious discussion.
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Posted

It would seem quite likely that UK reps have interviewed Sean, and probably some others who may be able to shed some light on what happened that night. Just as likely, the interview would not be made public before the time Brit authorities deem it's useful to helping solve the case, if ever.

All that JD espouses is similar to the banter of a defense attorney. He/she, along with RTP are going to do and say all they can to try and keep truth from surfacing, while continuing to shield the headman's people from investigative scrutiny. It's working thus far (though public sentiment is against them), but will their ruse hold up if/when the British show their cards? If the Brits have evidence which counters what the Thais have, I don't think the Brits will release findings which will rock Thailand's ship of state. The Brits will likely opt for diplomacy over seeking justice for the victims (and getting some rapists/murders behind bars). The Burmese will be let off, and this KT crime will get filed under the thick file: "Thai murders - Inconclusive"

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Posted

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

Sometime back, when the British investigators left, it was said they would be making a statement much later. Perhaps it was the first of the year.

The problems for them is that they weren't allowed to investigate but only "observe."

The crime scene would have been horribly compromised.

There's no way to know if they could get DNA from the victims after the return to the UK. We don't know what was done to the bodies in Thailand. Protocol is embalming.

Were they allowed to get DNA from the Burmese with proper chain of custody? And on it goes.

I hope the Thais find a reason to release the Burmese and that the case goes unsolved. This time.

I agree with what you say, except for "I hope....the case goes unsolved."

I hope it gets solved. It would be tough to go up against the big money and powerful political status of the headman, ....but not impossible. Resolve!

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Posted

No citation you offered covered cases which could never be tried in a UK court

Once again:

This is a direct quote from Section 39 of the Second Report of Session 2005–06 of the UK House of Commons Procedure Committee titled "Application of the sub

judice rule to proceedings in coroners’ courts".

"The Contempt of Court Act applies to coroners courts in the same way that it applies to other courts."

What my citations say is that sub judice applies to coroners inquests, which is a "legal proceeding" covered by the law of sub judice regardless of whether there will ever be a "judicial action" in which there is a "trial". It is not necessary for the case ever to be "tried" in a UK court for sub judice to apply . . . and you provide absolutely no support for your continued insistence that it is necessary.

Have a nice day JD . . . I had previously thought that you raised some interesting issues at times that would be worth discussing with you. I've now seen over time that you want to make no more effort in your arguments than many of the intellectually lazy posters you joust with. I'll leave you and them to go round in circles of meaningless blather with each other since you clearly don't want to have a serious discussion.

And again you are deflecting from the fact that what you are referring to is about criminal cases in the UK.

You are also avoiding that nobody from any country has come out to help the world view of the conspiracy theorists. Not one person.

Then add to that, not one of the conspiracy theories has been proven, so many people claiming to know who did it, who was on the island. So many people blindly stating that they "know" who did it but not one person has come forward, not one person even outside of Thailand. Not one picture. Nothing from any reporter about the claim that the CCTV still, used in part to clear a former suspect, has reported on the furniture being removed long before that weekend.

Nothing.

But you think that citing references to UK domestic case law which does not apply to cases not possible to try in the UK, actually means something.

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Posted

There's also a cctv video showing the furniture had been moved before the 15th Sept but its in Thai so cannot link to it. Also as much as we cannot trust the time stamp on the Nomsod video then the same goes for the video with the missing furniture

post-223227-0-07460200-1416671951_thumb.

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Posted

There's also a cctv video showing the furniture had been moved before the 15th Sept but its in Thai so cannot link to it. Also as much as we cannot trust the time stamp on the Nomsod video then the same goes for the video with the missing furniture

Strange,

Not one single legitimate source has confirmed this. How long would it take for a UK or Thai press agency to do the basic review of this claim? Yet another 45 days has passed. Nothing.

Posted

You are also avoiding that nobody from any country has come out to help the world view of the conspiracy theorists. Not one person.

Then add to that, not one of the conspiracy theories has been proven, so many people claiming to know who did it, who was on the island. So many people blindly stating that they "know" who did it but not one person has come forward, not one person even outside of Thailand. Not one picture. Nothing from any reporter about the claim that the CCTV still, used in part to clear a former suspect, has reported on the furniture being removed long before that weekend. Nothing.

There's a line from an early Simon & Garfunkle song (The Boxer): "he just sees what he wants to see, and disregards the rest."

That's JD, in the context of KT crime evidence. Social media is putting out lots of things. Not all of it will prove to be valid. However, even if just a small % is useful in nailing the real perps, then it's worthwhile. There are several items which have surfaced on social media which could contribute to solving the crime. It doesn't have to be iron-clad from the moment it's contributed. Example: if a sharks-tooth ring is shown being worn on the middle finger of a big strong Thai man who also happens to be a bouncer/regular at AC bar, and who also happens to be shown in another photo, partying inches away from Hannah ....that could be grist for pursuance of corroborating evidence and/or shoring up the connections. There are dozens of items like that revealed on social media. But we, the general public, would never know of those possibly useful items by looking at what Thai officials reveal. There are 1,000 lines of evidence which Thai officials have either not pursued or have realized implicates the headman's people, so they tossed it in the trash. JD is of the same mindset. He/she can't fathom taking issue with the Thai cop investigators, even when they blunder in plain sight. Just 3 of many examples:

>>> saying there was none of David's blood on the hoe, yet using the hoe in the reenactment.

>>> claiming Hannah's phone was found behind the scapegoat's shack, and then (when social media indicated that couldn't be possible), the police changed their story to say it was 'David's phone' ....and even that fall-back position was flawed.

>>> Thai officials denying or disregarding the knife-like wounds on David, while maintaining the blunt hoe was the weapon used on him.

JD and Thai officials detest social media right now, because many of the items posted there implicate the headman's people. Thai officials are doing everything they can to shield the headman's people. If social media all of a sudden came up with two bloody t-shirts found buried behind the Burmeses' shack, JD and the police would be happier than kids in a candy store.

Apparently we are not allowed to abbreviate members names.

I have dealt with each of your points previously.

Posted

There's also a cctv video showing the furniture had been moved before the 15th Sept but its in Thai so cannot link to it. Also as much as we cannot trust the time stamp on the Nomsod video then the same goes for the video with the missing furniture

Strange,

Not one single legitimate source has confirmed this. How long would it take for a UK or Thai press agency to do the basic review of this claim? Yet another 45 days has passed. Nothing.

Maybe the UK police/press have done a 'basic review of this claim'. None of us know that they haven't - including you JD (I imagine).

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Posted

Why would anybody release these two suspects whose DNA matches to these horrific crimes knowing they will very likely do a runner to Myanmar?

The answer is INDEED very clear as posted earlier in this thread by somebody else, it is THE face-saver for the RTP.

There will be no court-case, no difficult questions to answer, nothing! The runner will even help them to claim the prefect case was perfect but the suspects ran!

I now also predict this is how it will end!!

Of course the real killers will never be caught! They also would like to see the B2 run! Same as the RTP, and the B2 for sure will also use the opportunity!

It will NEVER EVER be solved!

Posted

Why would anybody release these two suspects whose DNA matches to these horrific crimes knowing they will very likely do a runner to Myanmar?

The answer is INDEED very clear as posted earlier in this thread by somebody else, it is THE face-saver for the RTP.

There will be no court-case, no difficult questions to answer, nothing! The runner will even help them to claim the prefect case was perfect but the suspects ran!

I now also predict this is how it will end!!

Of course the real killers will never be caught! They also would like to see the B2 run! Same as the RTP, and the B2 for sure will also use the opportunity!

It will NEVER EVER be solved!

release = release on BAIL

Posted

Let's all be appreciative that the Guardian and other UK interested journalists are not going to allow this to drop, and that the social media has played a major role here,

additionally,

it is very possible that the prosecutor, in reaching out to the family, has brought about their own demise, mush like Moses telling Pharoah, the next curse in on you

the family of the victims of the "-brutal rape and massacre of life on Koh Tao-" may not have any idea what has been done on behalf of the two kids,

and may now come out, and demand a broader investigation

btw,

what is the headman's name?

calling him the headman, makes me want to vomit,

I would rather see his name being used, over and over, to be picked up by the google search engines, and apply as much pressure as possible

let's all consider, that the google search engines will display these brutal murders along side people's search for hotels on Koh Tao,

they should also be splashed with as many "murderers of Koh Tao" as we can offer them

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Posted

We haven't heard a peep from Nomsod's mother. Mothers, particularly in Thailand, seem to know (or desperately want to know) everything about their boys. Granted, as any mother would do, she would defend her boy, no matter what, ....but she still may have some pertinent insights/clues to what happened that night. Was her phone checked? Did she do a particularly important batch of laundry on Monday? Did she scold her son or brother-in-law? There could be cracks in the veneer of the cover-up, but we'll never know if Thai police continue to shield the Headman's people.

There's also a cctv video showing the furniture had been moved before the 15th Sept but its in Thai so cannot link to it. Also as much as we cannot trust the time stamp on the Nomsod video then the same goes for the video with the missing furniture

Strange, not one single legitimate source has confirmed this. How long would it take for a UK or Thai press agency to do the basic review of this claim? Yet another 45 days has passed. Nothing.
The UK is not speaking about anything at this time. As for the Thai authorities, they're keeping mum lately (learning from UK professionalism and/or realizing everything they announce is ridiculed). I realize you're referring to 'the press' but this is Thailand, and we're under martial law. Police + Military = Law, currently in Thailand. It's also police + military who are doing all they can to orchestrate the frame-up of the B2, while shielding the Headman's people.
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Posted

There's also a cctv video showing the furniture had been moved before the 15th Sept but its in Thai so cannot link to it. Also as much as we cannot trust the time stamp on the Nomsod video then the same goes for the video with the missing furniture

Strange,

Not one single legitimate source has confirmed this. How long would it take for a UK or Thai press agency to do the basic review of this claim? Yet another 45 days has passed. Nothing.

Maybe the UK police/press have done a 'basic review of this claim'. None of us know that they haven't - including you JD (I imagine).

Ummm if the press has, they haven't published.

Posted

We haven't heard a peep from Nomsod's mother. Mothers, particularly in Thailand, seem to know (or desperately want to know) everything about their boys. Granted, as any mother would do, she would defend her boy, no matter what, ....but she still may have some pertinent insights/clues to what happened that night. Was her phone checked? Did she do a particularly important batch of laundry on Monday? Did she scold her son or brother-in-law? There could be cracks in the veneer of the cover-up, but we'll never know if Thai police continue to shield the Headman's people.

There's also a cctv video showing the furniture had been moved before the 15th Sept but its in Thai so cannot link to it. Also as much as we cannot trust the time stamp on the Nomsod video then the same goes for the video with the missing furniture

Strange, not one single legitimate source has confirmed this. How long would it take for a UK or Thai press agency to do the basic review of this claim? Yet another 45 days has passed. Nothing.
The UK is not speaking about anything at this time. As for the Thai authorities, they're keeping mum lately (learning from UK professionalism and/or realizing everything they announce is ridiculed). I realize you're referring to 'the press' but this is Thailand, and we're under martial law. Police + Military = Law, currently in Thailand. It's also police + military who are doing all they can to orchestrate the frame-up of the B2, while shielding the Headman's people.
More conspiracy theories.

This case is being heard in a standard court.

Again not one shred of proof for the conspiracy theorists.

Posted

We haven't heard a peep from Nomsod's mother. Mothers, particularly in Thailand, seem to know (or desperately want to know) everything about their boys. Granted, as any mother would do, she would defend her boy, no matter what, ....but she still may have some pertinent insights/clues to what happened that night. Was her phone checked? Did she do a particularly important batch of laundry on Monday? Did she scold her son or brother-in-law? There could be cracks in the veneer of the cover-up, but we'll never know if Thai police continue to shield the Headman's people.

There's also a cctv video showing the furniture had been moved before the 15th Sept but its in Thai so cannot link to it. Also as much as we cannot trust the time stamp on the Nomsod video then the same goes for the video with the missing furniture

Strange, not one single legitimate source has confirmed this. How long would it take for a UK or Thai press agency to do the basic review of this claim? Yet another 45 days has passed. Nothing.
The UK is not speaking about anything at this time. As for the Thai authorities, they're keeping mum lately (learning from UK professionalism and/or realizing everything they announce is ridiculed). I realize you're referring to 'the press' but this is Thailand, and we're under martial law. Police + Military = Law, currently in Thailand. It's also police + military who are doing all they can to orchestrate the frame-up of the B2, while shielding the Headman's people.
More conspiracy theories.

This case is being heard in a standard court.

Again not one shred of proof for the conspiracy theorists.

Is Nomsod's mother alive? Functional? Still married? Involved in her son's life? Etc. You fail to address any of these points but slip a new conspiracy theory in on it. The press covers the press from any country

Murdoch 's organization could be making scads by publishing from any number of outside countries including the USofA

Posted

Bleacher Bum East's last post should be made into a sticky!!! wai.gif

Just about wraps up any clinging doubts about the RTP Glee Club Captain. Not long before an inactive position will be found for him I'm sure thumbsup.gif

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Posted

Bleacher Bum East's last post should be made into a sticky!!! wai.gif

Just about wraps up any clinging doubts about the RTP Glee Club Captain. Not long before an inactive position will be found for him I'm sure thumbsup.gif

Don't want to steal BBE's thunder, but I have articulated JDI's ineptitude many a time, he/she relies on wiki to make poorly constructed erroneous arguments constantly. clap2.gif ... the concerning aspect is that he or she is dishonest with her belief system, and may be close to people who have an interest or involvement in the whole fiasco. JdI needs to take a breath, and step back from the edge, for their own well being. If this goes pear shaped, which it may well, one needs to be on the right side of the fence.

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Posted

All but a relatively few young men have a mother. If she's at all involved with her son, she should at least be questioned. You wanna drag Murdoch in to this? Jeez Louise.

One : you say that there's a conspiracy. That makes you presenting conspiracy theories.

Two: you brought the kid's mother into this then deflected.

Three: the press is the press. Murdoch pays well for stories.

Four: your Murdoch question deflects from why not one single conspiracy theory has been proven yet. Not one person can place the kid on the island nor show evidence of any problems at the bar.

The 2 Burmese men accused of being the killers have been in jail for quite awhile but you have nothing to prove their innocence nor the guilt of anyone else. Social media / armchair detectives / conspiracy theorists have so far failed on every count

Posted

Burmese kids accused of Koh Tao murders appeal to the parents of the murdered,...I've never heard of such a thing.

"Handwritten in Burmese, and with their names signed in English, it reads: We are really distraught about the loss of your children, and we share your grief. But we want to stress to you that we didnt do anything wrong, and this crime was nothing to do with us.

In order that the truth can be revealed, we want to ask for help from all of you to ensure that we get access to information that the British government has. We would like this information to be shared with our lawyers so the truth can come out. We really want to express our thanks for your help.

Posted

From Post #136 above: So it really isn't worth my time and effort to debate these issues with you any further, and after this post I won't do so.

So what is your time worth? You seem to have a lot of it for this issue.

The following are potential verdicts in a UK coroner's inquest:

Verdicts

The coroner can bring the following verdicts:

  • Natural causes
  • Accident or misadventure
  • Suicide
  • Narrative, which enables the coroner to set out the circumstances by which the death came about
  • Unlawful killing
  • Miscellaneous (drug dependence/industrial)
  • Neglect
  • Open, meaning that there is insufficient evidence to decide how the death came about – the case is left open in case further evidence appears.

http://www.medicalprotection.org/uk/england-factsheets/inquests

Doesn't seem here there is much in doubt.

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