helping my wife in local market

[visarunner]

Work is defined as anything they feel like at the time........especially if it upsets another Thai.

or Foreigner. Anyone can report anyone to Immigration.

Basicly you can not even sit in the shop of your wife watching her all day, because with your "presence" alone you might have an advantage. In terms of penalty, there are two things to consider, they might try to fine you or serious, file a court case against you, in that case you are done.....

[bamboozled]

In the end, I suppose, the law can be used against you easily since it is indeed the law. One may have all the best intentions and have helped many folks and be on good terms with most everybody, as thailand49 writes. But it only takes one bad apple as others have mentioned and the world is full of bad apples.
I guess I can be under the illusion that everything is ok and it might well be for a year or two or ten. And then one day, bam, they nab you out of the blue. I guess that's exactly how it would happen.

We didn't make it to the labor office yesterday. Will try again today. I don't think I will be helping the wife unless I get a permit of some sort...it indeed seems too risky.

[bow]

My wife owns a restaurant. I often help out. I never wash dishes and rarely helps with the cooking, but I do all the other stuff that needs to be done.

Nobody has ever complained. The locals think it is cute.

I should probably add that this is in a small town in a remote and rural part of central Thailand.

Maybe I am playing with fire and should stop.

[transam]

Work is defined as anything they feel like at the time........especially if it upsets another Thai.

or Foreigner. Anyone can report anyone to Immigration.

Basicly you can not even sit in the shop of your wife watching her all day, because with your "presence" alone you might have an advantage. In terms of penalty, there are two things to consider, they might try to fine you or serious, file a court case against you, in that case you are done.....

If you have a cup of coffee/beer in front of you on the table there is sod all anyone can do to remove or prosecute you. Just tell 'em I am a paying customer.

[elviajero]

I don't have first hand experience, but the labour acts definition of work means that even doing maintenance on your wife's home would be work and require a work permit. It's a crazy situation, but nonetheless illegal.

Hopefully Thailand will amend this law in the future and bring it up to date.

The "definition" as understood by alien (foreigners) minds could be that, but there are no precedents about anyone prosecuted and sentenced for doing house maintenance. Even in Thailand, some common sense is used.

The 'definition' is so broad that it couldn't be easier to understand by anyone. Obviously the law has been drafted so that the authorities can prosecute or kick out anyone at their discretion.

The debate about what we can and can't do will go on until a case goes to court which is never likely to happen. But the law is clear, and as it stands, to the strict letter of the law, and without precedent, you should expect to be prosecuted if a case went to court. Common sense is not applied in law.

The authorities are turning a blind eye to the many foreigners doing things here that would fall within the acts definition of work, but people can't take that as a green light to do whatever they want. I'm not saying don't do maintenance around the house, or help your wife erect her market stall, but you do so at risk.

As pointed out already, if someone takes offence and reports you, you will be at the mercy of whoever is interpreting the law. If that person wants you gone this catch all definition means you're gone.

[paz]

The 'definition' is so broad that it couldn't be easier to understand by anyone. Obviously the law has been drafted so that the authorities can prosecute or kick out anyone at their discretion.

The debate about what we can and can't do will go on until a case goes to court which is never likely to happen. But the law is clear, and as it stands, to the strict letter of the law, and without precedent, you should expect to be prosecuted if a case went to court. Common sense is not applied in law.

The authorities are turning a blind eye to the many foreigners doing things here that would fall within the acts definition of work, but people can't take that as a green light to do whatever they want. I'm not saying don't do maintenance around the house, or help your wife erect her market stall, but you do so at risk.

As pointed out already, if someone takes offence and reports you, you will be at the mercy of whoever is interpreting the law. If that person wants you gone this catch all definition means you're gone.

Again your talk is made of if's... debate... should expect...

That is basically scaremongering without a solid basis.

Bring a documented case of someone fined, prosecuted, sentenced for doing this as in this topic, or "working online", or trading stocks. and we'll talk about facts. Do you have any ?

Edited February 26, 2015 by paz

[elviajero]

The 'definition' is so broad that it couldn't be easier to understand by anyone. Obviously the law has been drafted so that the authorities can prosecute or kick out anyone at their discretion.

The debate about what we can and can't do will go on until a case goes to court which is never likely to happen. But the law is clear, and as it stands, to the strict letter of the law, and without precedent, you should expect to be prosecuted if a case went to court. Common sense is not applied in law.

The authorities are turning a blind eye to the many foreigners doing things here that would fall within the acts definition of work, but people can't take that as a green light to do whatever they want. I'm not saying don't do maintenance around the house, or help your wife erect her market stall, but you do so at risk.

As pointed out already, if someone takes offence and reports you, you will be at the mercy of whoever is interpreting the law. If that person wants you gone this catch all definition means you're gone.

Again your talk is made of if's... debate... should expect...

That is basically scaremongering without a solid basis.

Bring a documented case of someone fined, prosecuted, sentenced for doing this as in this topic, or "working online", or trading stocks. and we'll talk about facts. Do you have any ?

It is a debate as there is discussion between two opposing opinions.

The law states that working requires a work permit, so if you're caught working without a work permit, and end up in court, you should expect that the law will impose a penalty. Solid fact. No scaremongering.

I haven't claimed that anyone has been "fined, prosecuted, sentenced for doing this as in this topic, or "working online", or trading stocks".

You are the one with the burden of proof that anyone can do these activities without risk. Go and get me a letter from the labour office confirming that you can work online trading stocks, or work along side a Thai at their market stall without fear of prosecution.

​All I'm saying is that if you do something that could be classed as work under the acts broad definition of work you are at risk of penalty. Fact.

[paz]

​All I'm saying is that if you do something that could be classed as work under the acts broad definition of work you are at risk of penalty. Fact.

Yes it's a fact that you stated you opinions about what could happen if and when. Thanks for that.

[elviajero]

​All I'm saying is that if you do something that could be classed as work under the acts broad definition of work you are at risk of penalty. Fact.

Yes it's a fact that you stated you opinions about what could happen if and when. Thanks for that.

Anyone know of an app that can translate gobbledygook?

Have a good day paz. Conversation over.

[thailand49]

Let's keep the discussion in perspective? The BM posting was not owning or operating a cafe/bar as indicated in many of the responses if this was the situation with the posting I would too agree do as little if nothing to avoid a problem.

But this is not the case here. The guy just wants to carry some items for his wife to market. He is married for cry sake that alone to a Thai is a monumental job or work in itself. Even in Thailand being married is a full time job. How do you not work and keep a marriage together? Maybe this is foreign to Thai men and their culture but the BM wants to help no different than he was home washing and cleaning for his family. Is driving your son or daughter to school work? going shopping for food or clothes for them? Hell taking a shit Thai style is lots of work too!

Sure many of us live here we aren't looking to cause trouble or take jobs away and operating a business like a bar etc.. isn't the same as the situation being posted. Going down to any government office to ask or gain permission for something like this to me at least is way out of bounds and I do not care if I was in Communist China!

If one is so afraid that they have to ask permission or get a permit, then while you are down there get a permit to have sex with your Thai wife too that can be consider work?

[paz]

Let's keep the discussion in perspective? The BM posting was not owning or operating a cafe/bar as indicated in many of the responses if this was the situation with the posting I would too agree do as little if nothing to avoid a problem.

...

Your message is strong and clear but I'm afraid someone will still need an app to understand it.

Edited February 26, 2015 by paz

[SoiBiker]

If the lady needs help with her market stall, she could hire a local to assist her. If the husband helps, he's taking the job a local could be doing.

We might not like the law, but it's still the law - and it doesn't magically stop applying to you just because you married a Thai.

[paz]

If the lady needs help with her market stall, she could hire a local to assist her. If the husband helps, he's taking the job a local could be doing.

We might not like the law, but it's still the law - and it doesn't magically stop applying to you just because you married a Thai.

You mean, observing the law as in a self-applied punishment, sort of statement of idiocy? Because there is no other name for a man that keeps his arms crossed when a woman loads/unload purchases for the family shop. Guess what she would be right keeping crossed then after.

[SoiBiker]

Whether you obey the law or not is your call. But it is what it is.

[liddelljohn]

A few years ago an immigration official tried to hustle me for working when i was painting my own house , I told him to FXXX OFF and so did my wife , he called the local fuzz who told him not to be so stupid ...another time a Thai neighbour reported me for fixing a mates ducati but they cant stop me doing that as its not a business ,, if my mate want to give me a gift for helping him they cant do anything about it

[khunpa]

A couple of years ago I helped my wife selling at several exhibitions. Had many visitors/customers who where from the police and I even once sold to the local head of immigration, while helping my wife. Nobody ever asked me if I had a work permit or not. Actually, most Thais who came to our stand, said it was good I was helping her (She was pregnant at that time).

You get a long way with being nice in Thailand, not hanging around the wrong people and just simply avoid pissing people off. I would have no worries of helping my wife with her shop.

Edited February 26, 2015 by khunpa

[thailand49]

Let's keep the discussion in perspective? The BM posting was not owning or operating a cafe/bar as indicated in many of the responses if this was the situation with the posting I would too agree do as little if nothing to avoid a problem.

...

Your message is strong and clear but I'm afraid someone will still need an app to understand it.

Yes you are right we all have a opinion, there are some like me that basically try to use some common sense in life, then there are some who can't seem to turn left or right move a inch before they get permission. My message might be strong and clear but it really doesn't matter as everyone can see from one posting just waking up in the morning is a job that should be given to a Thai! Maybe that is why they think we are nothing but a walking ATM? Maybe I'm right about getting a permit to <deleted> your own wife? When people start to think that every move we make can or should be done by a Thai because we are taking a so call job away? If this was really the thinking maybe that is why so many Thai men think they can <deleted> your wife when you are gone?

[Arkady]

I have heard weird stories, too. The latest was a woman in a restaurant who was chastised for giving her dirty glass to the washer, or something of the sort. That constituted working. I wonder if there is any chance that these laws will be modified anytime...soon. I guess they really don't want foreign men marrying "their" women. I believe the law is different for a foreign woman marrying a Thai man...that may be the law about how much money is needed for a visa, I don't recall exactly.

My wife has called the labor office. No, I cannot set up the table or push the cart (that's "construction work") or sell or talk to a customer.

Ok, does anyone have any ideas about how to find a semi-reliable person to help my wife nightly in the market? Maybe a flyer at CMU or something?

Selling or talking to a customer is even worse because that is specifically prohibited to foreigners (even those with WPs to do something else in the business) by the Royal Decree that specifies the professions that are restricted to Thais. Having said that the reality is that many retail jobs including selling stuff in markets and by the side of the road and working as waiting at tables are now done by Burmese and other Asian migrant workers. Many just pay a fixed monthly fee to the BiB. Standard now in in resort areas where many people working in shops can't speak Thai at all. Unfortunately farangs are more obvious.

[h90]

Where I live I became Tourist police volunteer.......Nooooooooooo, not a street walker...........Just on the end of a phone to help farang folk if needed.......Why did I do that, one of the reasons.............?.............

To get tea money?

(just joking.....not wanting to insult you, but it would be the perfect reason for a Thai become policeman).

[FritsSikkink]

if my mate want to give me a gift for helping him they cant do anything about it

Yes they can, because then you are being paid for that work.

[KarenBravo]

It has nothing to do with being paid, or not.

As I mentioned in a previous post, volunteers after the tsunami were told that they needed work-permits.

You want to do unpaid volunteer work for any cause whatsoever, you'll need a work-permit to be legal.

[bamboozled]

In reference to my wife starting a business, we went to the labor dept. yesterday and received many forms to fill out. The woman helping us didn't have all the answers but we did find out that the same 1,000,000 baht registered capital is required for a Thai to start a business (well, at least in her case it was said to be required). Not that this necessarily needs to be shown (I never showed it for my business but that was 5 years ago). She didn't have an answer as to how many employees were required and directed us to a different office for the answer. We have not yet been there. It seems off the top that it might just be easier to use my existing business.

She said I could be the "manager" of the business. I'm sure part of that job description doesn't include loading/unloading a cart.....

[jdinasia]

If the lady needs help with her market stall, she could hire a local to assist her. If the husband helps, he's taking the job a local could be doing.

We might not like the law, but it's still the law - and it doesn't magically stop applying to you just because you married a Thai.

You mean, observing the law as in a self-applied punishment, sort of statement of idiocy? Because there is no other name for a man that keeps his arms crossed when a woman loads/unload purchases for the family shop. Guess what she would be right keeping crossed then after.

Wrong.

The business needs to be treated like a business. He'd be an ass for not carrying groceries into the house, he'd be a fool to do it at the business.

[bamboozled]

I have a new idea which is to go to immigration and ask them what I can and cannot do to help my wife. Would that be the correct place? I have not been in years but I see a lot of commotion about it here on TV in regard to queue numbers and craziness and such. Is it feasible to show up there and find someone that could answer questions about what is legal and not legal?

thank you

[paz]

I have a new idea which is to go to immigration and ask them what I can and cannot do to help my wife. Would that be the correct place? I have not been in years but I see a lot of commotion about it here on TV in regard to queue numbers and craziness and such. Is it feasible to show up there and find someone that could answer questions about what is legal and not legal?

You can ask what you want but you would never get an authoritative or written answer, beside the basic "need company" or "need work permit".

By the way, work including foreigner's work is regulated by Dept. of Labor not immigration, even if Immigration police can contrast illegal work by foreigners.

I think it's also a matter of understand that Thailand is not your home country, things are done differently here.

[Chivas]

You're helping your wife carry something period !!

Course you can do it

[KarenBravo]

You're helping your wife carry something period !!

Course you can do it

You were born without the self-preservation gene.

My sympathies......

[nzexpat]

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I have a new idea which is to go to immigration and ask them what I can and cannot do to help my wife. Would that be the correct place? I have not been in years but I see a lot of commotion about it here on TV in regard to queue numbers and craziness and such. Is it feasible to show up there and find someone that could answer questions about what is legal and not legal?

thank you

Immigration is not concerned with work or work permits !

Best you ask at your local Labour office ..................................

[elviajero]

I have a new idea which is to go to immigration and ask them what I can and cannot do to help my wife. Would that be the correct place? I have not been in years but I see a lot of commotion about it here on TV in regard to queue numbers and craziness and such. Is it feasible to show up there and find someone that could answer questions about what is legal and not legal?

thank you

You'd need to go to the labour office not immigration, but I doubt you'll get the answers you want. I didn't! And even if you get a verbal go ahead you'd need it in writing, which you won't get, otherwise you're still at risk.

Unfortunately there is no way around this ridiculous law.

Your options are to do whatever you want and fight your case if challenged, get a work permit for the job you want to do, or avoid doing anything that could be classed as work, which is pretty much anything.

In my various conversations with immigration and the labour office they are always sympathetic, but their hands are tied.

[paz]

You're helping your wife carry something period !!

Course you can do it

You were born without the self-preservation gene.

My sympathies......

Better to lack a gene than the entire spinal cord.