Chinese province to ban rooftop Christian crosses

[webfact]

Chinese province to ban rooftop Christian crosses
By DIDI TANG

BEIJING (AP) — A Chinese province where authorities have forcibly removed hundreds of rooftop crosses from skylines of cities and towns has proposed a ban on any further placement of the religious symbol atop sanctuaries at both Protestant and Catholic churches.

The draft, if approved, would give authorities in the eastern province of Zhejiang legal grounds to remove rooftop crosses.

Since early 2014, Zhejiang officials have toppled crosses from more than 400 churches, sometimes resulting in violent clashes with congregation members. They say the crosses violate building codes, but critics say the rapid growth of Christian groups have made the ruling Communist Party nervous.

"The authorities have attached great importance to this religious symbol," said Zheng Leguo, a pastor from the province who now lives in the United States. "This means no more prominent manifestation of Christianity in the public sphere."

A draft of rules on religious structures released by government agencies this week says the crosses should be wholly affixed to a building facade and be no more than one-tenth of the facade's height. The symbol also must fit with the facade and the surroundings, the proposal says. The draft does not provide the rationale for the proposal.

Fang Shenglan, an engineer at Zhejiang Provincial Institute of Architectural Design and Research who was involved with the research for the draft rules, confirmed that rooftop crosses would not be allowed under the proposed rules, but declined to explain why over the phone and did not respond to a written request.

Zhu Libin, president of a semi-official Christian association in Wenzhou, in southeastern Zhejiang, declined to comment. Calls to the provincial Christian association were unanswered Thursday.

"This new draft law is just another attempt by the government to legitimize its existing illegal violent campaign of destruction and removal of the cross," said Bob <deleted> of U.S.-based China Aid, which has documented that 448 churches have had crosses removed or buildings destroyed.

"To continue to forcefully remove and ban the cross on the rooftop of the church buildings demonstrates the Chinese regime's determination to contain the rapid growth of Christianity in China," he said in an email.

Yang Fenggang, an expert on China's religious issues at Purdue University, said the new restriction might be a power play by authorities and may not have real effects on beliefs. "I think this is a formal statement that we are in control," Yang said in a phone interview. "It is that 'you have to obey whatever orders we give. If we don't like the cross, you have to change.'"

Christianity has been expanding in China since the 1980s, when Beijing loosened its controls on religion.

Estimates for the number of Christians in China range from the conservative official figure of 23 million to as many as 100 million by independent scholars, raising the possibility that Christians may rival in size the 85 million members of the ruling Communist Party. The religion's tight-knit parishes, proclivity for civil society, and loyalty to God have made the ruling party edgy about its own rule.

Last August, Beijing authorities called Christian pastors and religious scholars into meetings to deliver an edict that the Christian faith must be free of foreign influence but "adapt to China," a euphemism for obeying the Communist Party.

The Zhejiang city of Wenzhou is known as China's Jerusalem because it has half of the province's 4,000 churches. Rooftop crosses used to dominate the city's skylines, and local churches — often funded by well-off businesspeople — raced to build the largest church and the tallest cross as a display of their blessings.

Compared to the Communist Party's previous militant-style campaigns aiming at wiping out the religion, the latest crackdown is milder and its primary target is a symbol rather than the belief itself, Zheng said.

Still, he called it "a restriction on the public space for Christianity."

The campaign comes amid Beijing's increasing restrictions on civil liberty, Zheng said, as authorities have stepped up persecution of advocates for civil society and rights lawyers, and placed more restrictions on non-governmental groups.


-- (c) Associated Press 2015-05-08

[Dannyboy666]

I Am Shocked, Not...

[trogers]

The only teaching on morals comes from the Little Red Book.

[zydeco]

Exterminate Tibetans, kill muslims (if anyone wants to see provocation, go to Xinjiang), and persecute Christians. China is a very nasty place. If any place deserves sanctions . . . .

[squarethecircle]

They're just getting nervous, the CCP's days are numbered, a higher number but their plan for maintaining power is not sustainable.

Anyways the next batch will be another group of jerks in black suits and ties, nothing changing.

Same people that rule every country on Earth.

[h90]

Exterminate Tibetans, kill muslims (if anyone wants to see provocation, go to Xinjiang), and persecute Christians. China is a very nasty place. If any place deserves sanctions . . . .

There are now more Tibetans than ever before, thanks to the hospitals China built, thanks to the food and thanks that hacking of bodyparts of slaves in the temples are banned.

[Benmart]

They're just getting nervous, the CCP's days are numbered, a higher number but their plan for maintaining power is not sustainable.

Anyways the next batch will be another group of jerks in black suits and ties, nothing changing.

Same people that rule every country on Earth.

"Jerks" often come in many shapes, sizes and colors. They are easily recognized by their spoken and written tendency to vilify others merely because of their beliefs.

[Commander Tamson]

Exterminate Tibetans, kill muslims (if anyone wants to see provocation, go to Xinjiang), and persecute Christians. China is a very nasty place. If any place deserves sanctions . . . .

There are now more Tibetans than ever before, thanks to the hospitals China built, thanks to the food and thanks that hacking of bodyparts of slaves in the temples are banned.

Any trustworthy links or stats to back that up?

[Publicus]

Stats and data are not required or necessary because of the 5000 years of dictatorship in China and the past 60 years of it under the Chinese Communist Party.

The CCP Boyz in Beijing are emperors in $800 business suits who remain as racist towards the world as were their predecessor emperors of the Celestial Kingdom. And the pot at the end of the cash trail of the past 30 years has never been anywhere near this huge or corrupted.

Which is why CCP Chairman Xi Jinping has already made himself the most powerful chairman since Mao. There will be no Gorbechev in the 21st century PRChina.

Meet the new boss, same as the old boss but even worse.

[Nobb]

And what about the Muslim places to worship! Or are there no Muslims in China?

[wabothai]

What's next? the statues?

Sounds like ISIS idiots.

[Scott]

And what about the Muslim places to worship! Or are there no Muslims in China?

There is a sizable Muslim community in China.

I have a very good Chinese colleague here in Thailand who is a Muslim. Although I don't think he is a very good Muslim. He recently came to work with a hangover.

I've had a couple of discussions about religion with him and he is really quite lacking in some of the basic tenets of his religion.

[Publicus]

And what about the Muslim places to worship! Or are there no Muslims in China?

There are Muslims in the PRChina but the growth religion there is Christianity, as it is also in South Korea where also numerous crosses on so many new churches dominate the skylines of sections of many major cities and their adjoining communities.

Chinese emperors were cozy and hospitable toward Islam and Muslims in China because they considered that Muslim belief systems, values and ways were very similar to traditional Chinese and Confucian ways and beliefs and in the ordering of societies. This changed radically when the CCP atheism of Chairman Mao assumed power. Indeed, Muslims believers had fought alongside the loser in the civil war Chang Kai Shek, so Mulsims suddenly became losers in the PRC as is grotesquely evidenced in the Xin Jiang region in the PRC far West.

Because China is China, the Chinese Communist Party with its 85 million members is the largest political party in the world, presently and ever. If the CCP Boyz in Beijing fear Christianity and its rapid growth in the PRChina, then the estimates of 100 million Christians in the PRC are probably understated. Because I'm American, about half of the PRChinese I got to know in the PRC let me know they are Christian. If I somehow knew half the population of the PRChina they would not be Christian, but it's the rapid rate in the growth of Christianity there and its extensive expansion that scares the CCP Boyz.

That the Boyz are reduced to imposing the placing of the cross on churches and the measurements of the cross instead of controlling people's beliefs says the CCP Boyz know and recognize Christianity in the contemporary PRChina is a prairie fire that is beyond their control. Christianity in South Korea and in the PRChina are indeed proliferating throughout each place and rapidly so.

The times they are a'changin' in the PRChina too.

[twocatsmac]

And what about the Muslim places to worship! Or are there no Muslims in China?

There is a sizable Muslim community in China.

I have a very good Chinese colleague here in Thailand who is a Muslim. Although I don't think he is a very good Muslim. He recently came to work with a hangover.

I've had a couple of discussions about religion with him and he is really quite lacking in some of the basic tenets of his religion.

There's a million or so Muslims like that in the UK.

Religion goes on the back burner when they're selling heroin or raping white girls.

[NeverSure]

And what about the Muslim places to worship! Or are there no Muslims in China?

There are Muslims in the PRChina but the growth religion there is Christianity, as it is also in South Korea where also numerous crosses on so many new churches dominate the skylines of sections of many major cities and their adjoining communities.

Chinese emperors were cozy and hospitable toward Islam and Muslims in China because they considered that Muslim belief systems, values and ways were very similar to traditional Chinese and Confucian ways and beliefs and in the ordering of societies. This changed radically when the CCP atheism of Chairman Mao assumed power. Indeed, Muslims believers had fought alongside the loser in the civil war Chang Kai Shek, so Mulsims suddenly became losers in the PRC as is grotesquely evidenced in the Xin Jiang region in the PRC far West.

Because China is China, the Chinese Communist Party with its 85 million members is the largest political party in the world, presently and ever. If the CCP Boyz in Beijing fear Christianity and its rapid growth in the PRChina, then the estimates of 100 million Christians in the PRC are probably understated. Because I'm American, about half of the PRChinese I got to know in the PRC let me know they are Christian. If I somehow knew half the population of the PRChina they would not be Christian, but it's the rapid rate in the growth of Christianity there and its extensive expansion that scares the CCP Boyz.

That the Boyz are reduced to imposing the placing of the cross on churches and the measurements of the cross instead of controlling people's beliefs says the CCP Boyz know and recognize Christianity in the contemporary PRChina is a prairie fire that is beyond their control. Christianity in South Korea and in the PRChina are indeed proliferating throughout each place and rapidly so.

The times they are a'changin' in the PRChina too.

I've been studying this. Well said.

These are fundamentalist Christians as in they believe the Bible is true and they don't need a Pope or other entity to interpret it for them. As such they are very independent thinkers much as your favorite Tea Party Christians are, LOL.

They are nothing like Catholics who tend to be passive, pacifist followers of leaders including the Pope. These Christians have no such person or symbol. These people will fight back and are willing to be martyrs.

A religion can sweep through an area or country with significant speed. The Catholic Church did that in S. Europe, Mexico and S. America, the Philippines and others. At one time at least it was almost complete saturation. The Protestant Group to include much of the rest of Europe including Russia, and N. America at one time could virtually rule. The Muslim religion is saturating many places.

This isn't a small movement and it isn't surprising that the Boyz are worried. These Christians are active and polar opposite of the communist dictatorship. They are direct affronts to each other and natural enemies, not just competitors in a marketplace of ideas. People who believe there must be a God and people who believe there can't be a God don't mix well when they think their job is to press their ideas.

These Christians don't provoke violence but they do believe in defending themselves and others if put in danger. They will fight back and die if they think it's warranted much as the early colonists in America, who were also largely Christian did. The founders of the USA invoked God and the Bible while plotting death to the enemy to gain freedom. People should pay attention to that.

The Christian religion is most attractive to these people because they've never had the right to free thinking or speech. Here they don't have a Pope or other authority which to them probably would seem same same. This is a big relief from the status quo and something other than Mao to believe in. Atheists offer nothing to people who are reaching for something higher to believe in.

This could absolutely, as history has shown elsewhere, change the face of China in a couple of generations. It seems that every generation wants to change and not be its father's Oldsmobile.

[Publicus]

And what about the Muslim places to worship! Or are there no Muslims in China?

There are Muslims in the PRChina but the growth religion there is Christianity, as it is also in South Korea where also numerous crosses on so many new churches dominate the skylines of sections of many major cities and their adjoining communities.

Chinese emperors were cozy and hospitable toward Islam and Muslims in China because they considered that Muslim belief systems, values and ways were very similar to traditional Chinese and Confucian ways and beliefs and in the ordering of societies. This changed radically when the CCP atheism of Chairman Mao assumed power. Indeed, Muslims believers had fought alongside the loser in the civil war Chang Kai Shek, so Mulsims suddenly became losers in the PRC as is grotesquely evidenced in the Xin Jiang region in the PRC far West.

Because China is China, the Chinese Communist Party with its 85 million members is the largest political party in the world, presently and ever. If the CCP Boyz in Beijing fear Christianity and its rapid growth in the PRChina, then the estimates of 100 million Christians in the PRC are probably understated. Because I'm American, about half of the PRChinese I got to know in the PRC let me know they are Christian. If I somehow knew half the population of the PRChina they would not be Christian, but it's the rapid rate in the growth of Christianity there and its extensive expansion that scares the CCP Boyz.

That the Boyz are reduced to imposing the placing of the cross on churches and the measurements of the cross instead of controlling people's beliefs says the CCP Boyz know and recognize Christianity in the contemporary PRChina is a prairie fire that is beyond their control. Christianity in South Korea and in the PRChina are indeed proliferating throughout each place and rapidly so.

The times they are a'changin' in the PRChina too.

I've been studying this. Well said.

These are fundamentalist Christians as in they believe the Bible is true and they don't need a Pope or other entity to interpret it for them. As such they are very independent thinkers much as your favorite Tea Party Christians are, LOL.

They are nothing like Catholics who tend to be passive, pacifist followers of leaders including the Pope. These Christians have no such person or symbol. These people will fight back and are willing to be martyrs.

A religion can sweep through an area or country with significant speed. The Catholic Church did that in S. Europe, Mexico and S. America, the Philippines and others. At one time at least it was almost complete saturation. The Protestant Group to include much of the rest of Europe including Russia, and N. America at one time could virtually rule. The Muslim religion is saturating many places.

This isn't a small movement and it isn't surprising that the Boyz are worried. These Christians are active and polar opposite of the communist dictatorship. They are direct affronts to each other and natural enemies, not just competitors in a marketplace of ideas. People who believe there must be a God and people who believe there can't be a God don't mix well when they think their job is to press their ideas.

These Christians don't provoke violence but they do believe in defending themselves and others if put in danger. They will fight back and die if they think it's warranted much as the early colonists in America, who were also largely Christian did. The founders of the USA invoked God and the Bible while plotting death to the enemy to gain freedom. People should pay attention to that.

The Christian religion is most attractive to these people because they've never had the right to free thinking or speech. Here they don't have a Pope or other authority which to them probably would seem same same. This is a big relief from the status quo and something other than Mao to believe in. Atheists offer nothing to people who are reaching for something higher to believe in.

This could absolutely, as history has shown elsewhere, change the face of China in a couple of generations. It seems that every generation wants to change and not be its father's Oldsmobile.

These are fundamentalist Christians as in they believe the Bible is true and they don't need a Pope or other entity to interpret it for them. As such they are very independent thinkers much as your favorite Tea Party Christians are, LOL.

They are indeed fundamentalist Christians. And, while that is a clever and witty way to put it, the tea party and all of that, I must however turn the statement on its head to say the Chinese Communist tea party, George III of England and the Republican party tea party group that has such great influence and sway over the GOP do have a lot of tyranny in common among them. What you say about PRChinese Christians not needing a pope is true as they do inherently distrust central authority, but Christians in the PRChina are almost entirely severed from contact with and communication from the pope due to the Great Firewall of China and all of the radically increased censorship of Xi Jinping, as if the existing levels of censorship and punishment when Xi came to power in 2012 hadn't generally been more than enough already for CCP purposes and intents.

The Christian religion is most attractive to these people because they've never had the right to free thinking or speech. This is a big relief from the status quo and something other than Mao to believe in. Atheists offer nothing to people who are reaching for something higher to believe in.

The latter part of the statement is a huge point, or so I would say as well. The Chinese have nothing to believe in any more. The fact is a central reason for the widespread surge of Christianity throughout the country. The Mandate of Heaven as it was expired when the emperor system and its dynasties expired. CCP atheism is a rather empty and hollow offering as a substitute or successor. The new mandate is to get rich but the priority in that is for the 85 million members of the CCP yet most of them don't see the biggest bucks and trickle down in the PRChina is for everyone much more trickle than down. The PRChinese have only themselves alone in the world and indeed in the universe to believe in which leaves 'em more isolated than they were under the Mandate of Heaven which was anyway a nebulous mandate, which also brings us to the next vital point.....

The founders of the USA invoked God and the Bible while plotting death to the enemy to gain freedom. People should pay attention to that.

People everywhere need to pay very close attention to that, yes. Believers in God have been fighting other believers in God for millennia in what have been the bloodiest battles of them all, or perhaps the most gruesome of most wars and crusades if not every single one. The wars of more recent history between believers and non-believers have also been fierce. In the Cold War competition that was political-economic and ideological too between the Russian communist Soviet Union and the US-led Christian West, the atheists in Russia fell face down flat. So whether the contest is a military conflict or a socio-cultural and economic competition, it is true that in war or in peace the side that competes civilizationally or which literally enters combat for God and Country isn't about to settle for anything less than both. It's the critical difference between the higher power of God and Country over the inadequate power of ethnicity or, as the Chinese have always seen it, race, that propels the believer to be by their very nature imaginative, skillful, determined, confident and ultimately dominant.

The CCP Boyz in Beijing know that in which ever arena their wholly owned PRChina competes, Christian Chinese will not side with them either.