Pot remains Europe's most used drug, agency report says

[7by7]

The argument "I've used cannabis for years and it's never done me any harm" is meaningless.

There are many people who have smoked tobacco for years without any noticeable harm.

There are many people who drink alcohol for years without any noticeable harm.

An uncle of mine smoked 20 plus cigarettes a day and drank heavily, beer, wine and spirits, until he died; aged 93.

If I used this to 'prove' that tobacco and alcohol were harmless I'd, rightly, be laughed out of the topic!

Yes, it is true, as I originally said, that my friend may have developed schizophrenia even if he hadn't been a heavy cannabis user. But, as I also said, his doctors at the time said it would probably not have been as serious and led to his suicide if he hadn't been a cannabis user.

I also posted three reports by health professionals on the health risks of this drug. There are many more. Those risks are as proven as the health risks of tobacco and alcohol.

Con yourself if you wish, but don't try and con other people into believing that cannabis use is harmless.

Stevenl, you said that the only reason you would stop someone from smoking a joint next to your infant child was because it contained tobacco.

So presumably you would have no problem if someone was smoking pure weed or resin and your baby inhaled, as they would be sure to do, the second hand smoke from that.

I ask you, how can any responsible parent be happy if any child, let alone an infant child, inhaled a mind altering drug?

All the research shows that the younger the user, the more harmful the effects of cannabis are to that person's mental health. Particularly when the brain is still developing.

Finally, it is true that cannabinoids can have therapeutic benefits, and medicinal cannabis is being grown and tested and even prescribed. THC is the active ingredient of Sativex; licensed in the UK as a treatment to relieve the pain of muscle spasms in multiple sclerosis.

What is medical marijuana?

But this, of course, does not mean it is safe for recreational use. Most prescribed medicines are most definitely not; That is why they are not available over the counter and should be taken under medical supervision.

The opiate morphine being a prime example.

Edit: I'm not trying to say that cannabis and opiates such as heroin are the same; obviously they are not.

Edited June 5, 2015 by 7by7

[h90]

I think both tobacco and alcohol are more used

[h90]

Please don't legalize marijuana.

I can think of many reasons to legalise it, not many not to legalise.

What is your reasoning?

Is that your child in your avatar? How would you like me to sit next to him and legally smoke a joint?

Anyone that thinks pot is a harmless drug is crazy.

Definately LESS harmful than tobacco though.

Perhaps time to make tobacco illegal. I'd vote for that.

How about let the people decide which drugs they want to use and which not. It doesn't need the smart politician to decide for me.....And check my pee to check if I am a good slave or not.

[impulse]

Yes, it is true, as I originally said, that my friend may have developed schizophrenia even if he hadn't been a heavy cannabis user. But, as I also said, his doctors at the time said it would probably not have been as serious and led to his suicide if he hadn't been a cannabis user.

I also posted three reports by health professionals on the health risks of this drug. There are many more. Those risks are as proven as the health risks of tobacco and alcohol.

Con yourself if you wish, but don't try and con other people into believing that cannabis use is harmless.

Sorry to crop your post to get to what I consider the points. Let me ask you a few questions about legalization.

Which is more harmful to my health, my family, my career and my life in general?

Smoking a little dope occasionally

Getting tossed in jail after an expensive trial and having a criminal record for smoking a little dope occasionally

Which one harms communities more?

People who smoke a little dope occasionally

Multi-million dollar prisons full of people who smoked a little dope occasionally, and ex- inmates that can't get a decent job because they have a criminal record

Where would you rather have the inevitable money spent on marijuana going?

Drug cartels who would kill you just for stumbling upon their operation

Philip Morris, their stockholders, and the governments to whom they pay taxes

I don't know anyone who would contend that getting wasted is healthy or beneficial (leaving aside medical marijuana questions for a minute).

But the bigger question is what is in society's best interest? Legalizing pot, or continuing the (long ago lost) war on drugs that tears families and communities apart, costs us billions of enforcement dollars, takes police focus and prison space away from truly dangerous offenders, and puts money into the hands of drug cartels.

Edited June 5, 2015 by impulse

[Ulysses G.]

I'm not trying to say that cannabis and opiates such as heroin are the same; obviously they are not.

Opiates are a lot more enjoyable IMO, but addiction is likely with frequent use.

[7by7]

Impulse,

In my posts I have not declared that I am against the legalisation of cannabis or any other recreational drug.

There is a reason for that; I agree with all your arguments against prohibition. Not just for cannabis but for all recreational drugs.

What I want to drive home is that cannabis is not the harmless drug many users try to convince themselves and others it is.

If it, or any other recreational drug, were to be legalised then it should be under the same terms as tobacco and alcohol.

That is only available to adults and the health risks made absolutely clear.

If an adult is fully aware of the risks and still chooses to use a drug, whether it be cannabis, heroin, tobacco, alcohol, whatever, then that is their choice and they have no one to blame but themselves for any consequences.

But anyone who gives or sells a recreational drug of any kind to a child should be treated as a criminal and severely punished.

Anyone who exposes a child to it's effects, second hand smoke from tobacco or cannabis for example, is, in my opinion, completely irresponsible.

Of course, there is the argument of why should the tax payer pay to treat a drug user's self inflicted illness? An argument already used with regard to alcohol and tobacco. But, like alcohol and tobacco, at least in the UK, the heavy taxes any government which legalised currently prohibited drugs will doubtless impose on the sale of those drugs will cover that.

As an example; in the UK there are no direct figures on the cost to the NHS of treating smoking related diseases; but it is estimated that it could be as much as £6 billion p.a.

Whereas tobacco duty and VAT on tobacco sales is estimated to raise just over double that; £12.1 billion p.a. (Does smoking cost as much as it makes for the Treasury?)

If the same tax regime were applied to cannabis, or any other currently illegal recreational drug, then the Treasury would make a net profit.

Of course, there is far more important aspects to health issues than mere pecuniary profit and loss.

[robblok]

Please don't legalize marijuana.

I can think of many reasons to legalise it, not many not to legalise.

What is your reasoning?

Is that your child in your avatar? How would you like me to sit next to him and legally smoke a joint?

Anyone that thinks pot is a harmless drug is crazy.

I also would not want you to sit next to my kid (if I had one) smoking. But if I had to choose between a drunk and a stoned person (on weed next to my kid) give me the guy on weed. Alcohol causes so much aggression and pot does not.

But allowing people to smoke weed does not equal them smoking it next to your kid. People can use it at home or in clubs.. your fear is irrational. In Holland I never saw people smoking it next to kids.

[impulse]

As an example; in the UK there are no direct figures on the cost to the NHS of treating smoking related diseases; but it is estimated that it could be as much as £6 billion p.a.

Whereas tobacco duty and VAT on tobacco sales is estimated to raise just over double that; £12.1 billion p.a. (Does smoking cost as much as it makes for the Treasury?)

If the same tax regime were applied to cannabis, or any other currently illegal recreational drug, then the Treasury would make a net profit.

Of course, there is far more important aspects to health issues than mere pecuniary profit and loss.

Well reasoned post and I'd agree with most. But I've always taken the "cost of treating smoking related illnesses" with a grain of salt.

It could even be argued that smoking saves the government money. It's not a very humane argument, but it goes like this: End of life care is expensive. Whether one dies of smoking, or cancer, or heart disease, or old age. So the government is paying for smoking related diseases now and not paying for other end of life care later. Let's see the study that says smoking related end of life care is more expensive than other end of life care. Otherwise, they're comparing smoking related health care costs to ???

That neglects, of course, the lost productivity of the portion of life cut short by smoking, but most smokers die at an age when they're collecting retirement anyway. So smoking reduces the pension and benefits obligations to people who die from smoking soon after they retire. Cold and cruel, but that saves billions every year. Of course, that's offset by those who are forced to retire early because of smoking related disability. But I don't have those numbers, either.

Again, not humane. In fact, pretty despicable. But, like you said, it's not all about the monetary effects. Nobody argues that smoking nicotine delivery systems are good for anyone, but they don't arrest people for it.

Edited June 5, 2015 by impulse

[stevenl]

The argument "I've used cannabis for years and it's never done me any harm" is meaningless.

There are many people who have smoked tobacco for years without any noticeable harm.

There are many people who drink alcohol for years without any noticeable harm.

An uncle of mine smoked 20 plus cigarettes a day and drank heavily, beer, wine and spirits, until he died; aged 93.

If I used this to 'prove' that tobacco and alcohol were harmless I'd, rightly, be laughed out of the topic!

Yes, it is true, as I originally said, that my friend may have developed schizophrenia even if he hadn't been a heavy cannabis user. But, as I also said, his doctors at the time said it would probably not have been as serious and led to his suicide if he hadn't been a cannabis user.

I also posted three reports by health professionals on the health risks of this drug. There are many more. Those risks are as proven as the health risks of tobacco and alcohol.

Con yourself if you wish, but don't try and con other people into believing that cannabis use is harmless.

Stevenl, you said that the only reason you would stop someone from smoking a joint next to your infant child was because it contained tobacco.

So presumably you would have no problem if someone was smoking pure weed or resin and your baby inhaled, as they would be sure to do, the second hand smoke from that.

I ask you, how can any responsible parent be happy if any child, let alone an infant child, inhaled a mind altering drug?

All the research shows that the younger the user, the more harmful the effects of cannabis are to that person's mental health. Particularly when the brain is still developing.

Finally, it is true that cannabinoids can have therapeutic benefits, and medicinal cannabis is being grown and tested and even prescribed. THC is the active ingredient of Sativex; licensed in the UK as a treatment to relieve the pain of muscle spasms in multiple sclerosis.

What is medical marijuana?

But this, of course, does not mean it is safe for recreational use. Most prescribed medicines are most definitely not; That is why they are not available over the counter and should be taken under medical supervision.

The opiate morphine being a prime example.

Edit: I'm not trying to say that cannabis and opiates such as heroin are the same; obviously they are not.

Please don't twist my words.

[55Jay]

OMG, like, stop the hate and let's make some foreign policy!

Cough, cough, hack hack, oooohhh yeah, Luke Skywalker, those Clingons, bloody bas'tads!

[7by7]

<snip>

Stevenl, you said that the only reason you would stop someone from smoking a joint next to your infant child was because it contained tobacco.

So presumably you would have no problem if someone was smoking pure weed or resin and your baby inhaled, as they would be sure to do, the second hand smoke from that.

I ask you, how can any responsible parent be happy if any child, let alone an infant child, inhaled a mind altering drug?

Please don't twist my words.

If I have misinterpreted what you said, then I apologise.

But if I have misinterpreted what you said, then perhaps you could explain what you meant in your earlier reply to krisb

Is that your child in your avatar? How would you like me to sit next to him and legally smoke a joint?

I'd make sure you don't. Not because of the joint but because of the second hand tobacco smoke.

(7by7 emphasis)

as it seems to me that you were saying that you, quite rightly, don't want your child exposed to tobacco smoke, but have no objection to him/her being exposed to marijuana smoke.

[stevenl]

So presumably you would have no problem if someone was smoking pure weed or resin and your baby inhaled, as they would be sure to do, the second hand smoke from that.

I ask you, how can any responsible parent be happy if any child, let alone an infant child, inhaled a mind altering drug?

Please don't twist my words."

If I have misinterpreted what you said, then I apologise.

But if I have misinterpreted what you said, then perhaps you could explain what you meant in your earlier reply to krisb

Is that your child in your avatar? How would you like me to sit next to him and legally smoke a joint?

I'd make sure you don't. Not because of the joint but because of the second hand tobacco smoke.
(7by7 emphasis)

as it seems to me that you were saying that you, quite rightly, don't want your child exposed to tobacco smoke, but have no objection to him/her being exposed to marijuana smoke.

I never said 'only' and as you must know the vast majority of cannabis users smoke it combined with tobacco.

So it is not the joint in itself that I object to.

I also agree with Robblok's post here about this:

"I also would not want you to sit next to my kid (if I had one) smoking. But if I had to choose between a drunk and a stoned person (on weed next to my kid) give me the guy on weed. Alcohol causes so much aggression and pot does not.

But allowing people to smoke weed does not equal them smoking it next to your kid. People can use it at home or in clubs.. your fear is irrational. In Holland I never saw people smoking it next to kids. "

I also agree with your reasoning about financing, which leads me to conclude that smoking is saving society a hell of a lot of money. First by taxes on tobacco, which I think will at least equal the additional health costs directly related to smoking, and on top of that the savings for society by dying younger, which I presume are huge.

Edited quotes because of forum regulations.

[7by7]

Indeed, most cannabis users do combine resin with tobacco, but not if smoking weed.

Also, many use pipes to smoke resin only; then there are methods for smoking resin such as hot knives which makes the hit faster and stronger.

At least that was the case when I was a regular user.

But I am still confused; so a straight question to which I hope you will give a straight yes/no answer.

Would you allow someone to smoke pure cannabis, weed or resin, which is not mixed with tobacco in the same room as your child?

BTW, many studies have shown that cannabis use can provoke a violent response; maybe not as common as alcohol, but the risk is still there.

From the British Journal of Psychiatry;

Results and conclusions An appreciable proportion of cannabis users report short-lived adverse effects, including psychotic states following heavy consumption, and regular users are at risk of dependence. People with major mental illnesses such as schizophrenia are especially vulnerable in that cannabis generally provokes relapse and aggravates existing symptoms. Health workers need to recognise, and respond to, the adverse effects of cannabis on mental health.
(7by7 emphasis)

Would you want someone who could enter a psychotic state near your child?

Whilst Robblok may not have seen people in Holland smoking cannabis in front of children in pubs or clubs, where one assumes children aren't allowed anyway, no one knows what people will do at home.

Irresponsible parents expose their children to second hand tobacco smoke at home, can you guarantee they wont, or don't, do the same with second hand cannabis smoke? Of course you can't.

[mrfill]

"Pot remains Europe's most used drug"

and in other news, water is discovered to be wet....

[Credo]

Indeed, most cannabis users do combine resin with tobacco, but not if smoking weed.

Also, many use pipes to smoke resin only; then there are methods for smoking resin such as hot knives which makes the hit faster and stronger.

At least that was the case when I was a regular user.

But I am still confused; so a straight question to which I hope you will give a straight yes/no answer.

Would you allow someone to smoke pure cannabis, weed or resin, which is not mixed with tobacco in the same room as your child?

BTW, many studies have shown that cannabis use can provoke a violent response; maybe not as common as alcohol, but the risk is still there.

From the British Journal of Psychiatry;

Results and conclusions An appreciable proportion of cannabis users report short-lived adverse effects, including psychotic states following heavy consumption, and regular users are at risk of dependence. People with major mental illnesses such as schizophrenia are especially vulnerable in that cannabis generally provokes relapse and aggravates existing symptoms. Health workers need to recognise, and respond to, the adverse effects of cannabis on mental health.

(7by7 emphasis)

Would you want someone who could enter a psychotic state near your child?

Whilst Robblok may not have seen people in Holland smoking cannabis in front of children in pubs or clubs, where one assumes children aren't allowed anyway, no one knows what people will do at home.

Irresponsible parents expose their children to second hand tobacco smoke at home, can you guarantee they wont, or don't, do the same with second hand cannabis smoke? Of course you can't.

How far off-topic did you plan on trying to take this thread? I am reasonably sure most parents wouldn't want their children around pot smoking and I know most adults wouldn't necessarily appreciate the antics of a child while enjoying a joint. Most people wouldn't be inviting people to their home to smoke weed if they didn't know them well enough to know they probably won't have a psychotic break from the stuff.

I wouldn't want my kids around people smoking pot, but it mostly has to do with the affect the smoke may have on them. My in-laws used to smoke pot around my grandkids. I told them I didn't think it was a good idea and they should open the windows. They said they didn't want to open the windows because the neighbors might smell it and call the police.

The grandkids are now adults and none of them are drug users. They don't smoke pot at all, but they did grow up around a lot of it.

[7by7]

Why do you think responding to posts about cannabis being harmless by showing how much reputable medical research has proven that to be completely untrue is taking the thread off topic?

It seems you do not want to hear about nor discuss this drug's harmful effects; kid yourself it's harmless if you want, but don't try and kid anyone else.

I did not say that children being around cannabis smokers will turn them into drug users. What I did was compare the health risks of children breathing second hand cannabis smoke to those of children breathing second hand tobacco smoke.

The mental health risks of cannabis, especially to a brain still developing, are well known and documented.

Which is why I consider smoking cannabis in the presence of children to be irresponsible.

Just as I consider smoking tobacco around children to be irresponsible.

Just as I consider pregnant women drinking alcohol, smoking tobacco, taking any drug, even over the counter medicine, without first seeking proper advice from a medical professional or pharmacist to be irresponsible.

In all the above situations there may be no ill effects to the child at all; but how can any responsible adult, let alone a parent, take the chance?

[Scott]

Please stay on topic.