Koh Tao: Trial opens for 2 accused of killing British tourists

[BritTim]

The Burmese government believes in the innocence of the Burmese kids.

Just to clarify ... So they Thai government is only concerned with looking good and not tarnishing the image of the country or people but Myanmar, one of the worst human right violators, is only concerned with truth and justice? This is the same country where the military commonly uses rape as a means to control its own people.

Not going to defend the Burmese government. However, they do need to consider the public relations effect of failing to assist two of their citizens being framed for a crime that it seems highly unlikely to most observers they committed.

[fab99]

The Burmese government believes in the innocence of the Burmese kids.

Just to clarify ... So they Thai government is only concerned with looking good and not tarnishing the image of the country or people but Myanmar, one of the worst human right violators, is only concerned with truth and justice? This is the same country where the military commonly uses rape as a means to control its own people.

Myanmar is not on trial here, the fact that the young guys are Burmese isn't really important in this debate, the fact that they COULD be innocent is (I say could because I like many here would accept a guilty verdict with sufficient proofs). Everyone has the right to a fair trial, even two poor migrants, they deserve the best defense, money shouldn't be relevant in justice, but it is, that is why donations are important and it doesn't matter by the way if the lawyer are paid or not, what matters is that the B2 have a fair chance with a good defense, the RTP and some here don't seem to like this idea...

[bunglebag]

So if only 5 are what you called "Facts" then I gather the rest is just Bull-shit then and I will throw them in the Bull-shit Pile.

Okay? Lets' check Your "Facts"

Sniffer Dogs?

I can't see what the Sniffer Dogs would do on the beach, besides having a good Poopoo, when the Crime Scene is covered in 2 feet of water after the Tide came in.

Mon on the crime scene?

The Media Reported the bodies were discovered by beach cleaners, but if it was the gardener no difference, as they both would have worked for Mon and his hotel or the bar.

Now if some excited migrant worker came running to you all excited and said in broken English he found bodies on the beach what would you do? Well before I would call the Police and possibly make a fool out of myself.I would go and look for myself first. Which I gather this is what he would do also.

Since the bodies were behind rocks, he would need to enter the crime scene to see for himself. Or do you think a partial blind migrant beach cleaner, or gardener would call the Police before he talked to his boss first, who he knew was nearby?

Allowed People to handle evidence without rubber gloves?

The only instances I can think of is first the the Hoe. The gardener went to get his hoe as he needed it. He did not know it could be a possible murder weapon at that time so he handled it the same way as he always did. This does not qualify that they allowed him to do this. He just did what he normally did each day. I believe it was Mon and the Police who asked the Gardener to put on gloves before returning the hoe, which contradicts your "Fact" also.

David Millers Body was perhaps the second instance and handled without gloves. I don't no for sure. But either way I don't see much choice they had then. The Tide was coming in and they either had to move him or risk that he would be swept away, and taken out to sea. If there is more it will be answered in you next "Fact".

Didn't have qualified people doing Forensics?

If you mean the crime scene I already explained that in an early post but for you I will give you the shorter version.

People here tend to like to compare this case to a case involving the FBI investigating a case in New York City, or Scotland Yard in London. What they tend to forget is that these double murders and rape took place on a small remote island that has a population of about 2,000 People and a Total Police Force of 5 people.

How much training do you think they have in securing a Crime Scene and if so how long ago? How many Double Murders and Rapes do you think they handle every year? What is the size of their S.W.A.T. Team on the Island? The highest ranking Police Officer on the Island was on the stand and when asked by the Defense he said he was involved with 2 rapes but not including a murder in his Life-time. That should indicate the rest of the Police Men and there experience.

How long would it take to get a Profession Investigative Team together in Bangkok, with approval from the higher ups, plus all the equipment and supplies you are going to need? Then get from Bangkok to a remote island and unload everything then get to the Crime Scene? Have they even a place for them to all stay that night and sleep? Would you go if you had to sleep in the Jungle? Would you send your men to do that?

My point is Professional help was a long way off and since the Tide was coming in they had to do something quickly or risk losing all the evidence and maybe even the bodies. That is also why they asked for help from ordinary people. But then you would probably think all this was all staged to.

Lied about DNA?

They never did and that has never been proven anywhere, so this is not a "Fact" at all. So I will just throw that one in the Bull-shit Pile.

First, I acknowledge that it is unreasonable to expect perfect handling of the crime scene by the local police. However, one does not need to be a police general to know that a crime scene should be cordoned off and everyone not directly involved in the investigation kept out. Further, while the police on Koh Tao may not be very experienced, one would imagine they would inform Koh Samui and Surat Thani headquarters immediately. It does not take long to determine that a serious crime needing senior officers to take charge is needed (unless you consider the Koh Tao police too inexperienced to recognize this). Speed boats (if no helicopter is available) do not take that long to Koh Tao.

On the need to collect evidence before it was covered by the rising tide, I could not find tide tables for Koh Tao on the morning of September 15, but tables for Koh Samui (which should be similar) are available. Based on those, the water level was falling when the police arrived (low tide about 7:30 am) and high tide was not until after 3:00 pm. Also the tides were not very strong on that day.

Let us consider Mon's involvement, both because you brought it up, and because it is pretty key. Let us start with Mon's claim that he is the running man on the CCTV footage. From the time he walked past the camera until he is seen running back was about 50 minutes. What was he doing at the crime scene for about 45 minutes? Does Mon own a phone? Did he immediately inform the police?

You are making a lot of assumptions here which you do not know if they did or did not happen. The first WRONG one is you saying I brought Mons' name up. I did no such thing! I was asked by another poster here how I could explain certain things (which you deleted out) about Mon. If you are going to twist what has been written here then I have no interest in discussions with you on that subject.

If this was however an accidental mistake then lets' step back a few paces. You said low tide at 7:30 am and high tide at 3 pm. So 7 hours and 30 minutes from low tide to high tide. So lets put some times together here.

The bodies was reported by the media to have been found by a beach cleaner at around 6:30 am. What is the next logical thing to do once that happens and you are this cleaner? Well, I would gather you would want to report this, but to who? The Police, who may question your whereabouts that night, or your boss? I would go with My Boss (Mon).

So where would Mon most likely be at 6:30 am? In bed still perhaps? Awake and having his first cup of coffee? So now this beach cleaner has to go and find him. Is he in his hotel already or is he at home? But if you are with me so far he sooner or later finds him, tells him what he saw. As mentioned already, and if I was the Boss, I would want to see that for myself. Who knows for sure that this wasn't just some beached up dauphin, which this migrant worker saw?

So you go to the Crime Scene and witness these bodies for yourself. Now what? Well I gather you would want to get the Police involved at this stage and call them. Did you bring your mobile Phone with you, or did you forget it in all this excitement and have to go back and get it? So you contact the Police and an Officer comes to investigate. Because the Boss was still waiting there to show him the location he sees the dead bodies to. Now what?

Well, if I was this officer I would now want to call my Superior and ask instructions on what to do, then wait for him to show up to. What time are we looking at now? It is reported by the media that the Police Man in charge moved David from the sea on fear it might get washed away as the tide was coming in. Since low tide was 7:30 am then it would have had to been past this time. So shall we call this 8 am or 9 am?

Does the Police Man in charge have the authority to call in a Special Investigative Team from Bangkok. I would think he would need a higher rank than this. So now he would have to call his Superior on perhaps the next island over, and he to might want to see the Crime Scene to first. So now he is off to the Island, then call his Superior in Bangkok to get approval to send out a Special Investigative Team with supplies, and perhaps even tents to sleep in on the beach.

My point is that organizing something like this takes time. A lot of time. It is not just one simple telephone call away. Many people have to get involved first. The location is remote and the Police there are not specialists in dealing with crimes like this. There was no urgency to fly everyone in on a helicopter. The dead bodies aren't going anywhere.

So there was no way they could do this before 3 pm anyway, and high tide. Even if they could, who is to say that even at half tide, say 10:30 am that the Crime Scene may be completely covered in water already? Do you know that for sure? So the way I see it the Local Police were forced to make the best out of a bad situation and before all the evidence would have been washed away and out to sea, including the bodies.

And you say other people make a lot of assumptions!

[IslandLover]

hello everybody,

first of all, it seems that we have a few disgusting people (alias or no) who are posting here (on an exagerated way), poison the subject, the forum and causing troubles . may i suggest to them : ignore me and move it along !

new on the forum i hope to help and contribute positivly to the discussion in the future but i wanted to say that above...

i leave you with the kind of naugthy people (found on FB) i don't want to argue. they will recognize them self in this :

Sorry, I don't get your point, new friend. Do you have an idea as to who Adam is? Fear won't stop me. Or many others. What do you think charging someone for talking on a website about a crime, this crime, would say about the politics/corruption?

I know who he is

can you tell us if can be one of these disgusting people i hin at above ?

Possibly

[HUH]

Was it ever explained why early on these two, outside of police presence admitted their guilt to their embassy, human rights worker and lawyers from the embassy? I am sure given people's here wild theories their is lots of hypothesis but has their lawyer ever explained why he publicly stated they confessed to him?

If the RTP had ever bothered to turn up to face the the Human Rights lawyer to answer the questions and investigate the allegations of torture then perhaps we would have had a clearer picture of this. This same lawyer also saw the wound marks on them from the alleged torture.

Hey 4 cancelled meetings later and the beloved RTP still failed to show and now we're at trial! What do you have to say on there failure to show?

[GOLDBUGGY]

Ah but buggy, many would like to know if you are in Thailand, what your interest in the case, who do you know and many other things about why you shill for the RTP and island mafia. Many of us would like to know what your connection, or "connections" are. Everything you say is nothing but conspiracy theory. A cop doesn't know how to handle a crime scene, what kind of cop would that be? I was basically what we call in America a "possum cop" for over 10 yrs. and I learned crime scene protection much earlier as a Federal firefighter. I was damn good at preserving the crime scene, proper collection of evidence and preserving the chain of evidence. Yes we really would like to know your "interest" in this case which would have never proceeded to trail, oops I meant trial, due to the corruption at the crime scene.

I suppose that if these Police on this Island had they same budget as your big city did, where they can even afford to train Firefighters in preserving evidence, then I suppose they would have these skill to. You are just making another comparison of the FBI in New York City, or Scotland Yard in London, to 5 Police Men on a Remote Island with total population of about 2,000 people.

My Race, Religion, Skin Color, where I live, or Sex, has nothing to do with this case. As I mentioned here already I didn't even hear of this Island until a year ago, and I have never been there.

But if you want to Post your CV here sgtsabai please feel free to do so.

[HUH]

The Burmese government believes in the innocence of the Burmese kids.

Just to clarify ... So they Thai government is only concerned with looking good and not tarnishing the image of the country or people but Myanmar, one of the worst human right violators, is only concerned with truth and justice? This is the same country where the military commonly uses rape as a means to control its own people.

Thank you for that clarification and the point in regards to this case is?

[JLCrab]

Reuters coverage of trial will be here: http://uk.mobile.reuters.com/newsSearch?keyWords=samui&submit=Search

Chief correspondent in Thailand is UK-educated Thai who writes her own copy in English

.

[GOLDBUGGY]

So if only 5 are what you called "Facts" then I gather the rest is just Bull-shit then and I will throw them in the Bull-shit Pile.

Okay? Lets' check Your "Facts"

Sniffer Dogs?

I can't see what the Sniffer Dogs would do on the beach, besides having a good Poopoo, when the Crime Scene is covered in 2 feet of water after the Tide came in.

Mon on the crime scene?

The Media Reported the bodies were discovered by beach cleaners, but if it was the gardener no difference, as they both would have worked for Mon and his hotel or the bar.

Now if some excited migrant worker came running to you all excited and said in broken English he found bodies on the beach what would you do? Well before I would call the Police and possibly make a fool out of myself.I would go and look for myself first. Which I gather this is what he would do also.

Since the bodies were behind rocks, he would need to enter the crime scene to see for himself. Or do you think a partial blind migrant beach cleaner, or gardener would call the Police before he talked to his boss first, who he knew was nearby?

Allowed People to handle evidence without rubber gloves?

The only instances I can think of is first the the Hoe. The gardener went to get his hoe as he needed it. He did not know it could be a possible murder weapon at that time so he handled it the same way as he always did. This does not qualify that they allowed him to do this. He just did what he normally did each day. I believe it was Mon and the Police who asked the Gardener to put on gloves before returning the hoe, which contradicts your "Fact" also.

David Millers Body was perhaps the second instance and handled without gloves. I don't no for sure. But either way I don't see much choice they had then. The Tide was coming in and they either had to move him or risk that he would be swept away, and taken out to sea. If there is more it will be answered in you next "Fact".

Didn't have qualified people doing Forensics?

If you mean the crime scene I already explained that in an early post but for you I will give you the shorter version.

People here tend to like to compare this case to a case involving the FBI investigating a case in New York City, or Scotland Yard in London. What they tend to forget is that these double murders and rape took place on a small remote island that has a population of about 2,000 People and a Total Police Force of 5 people.

How much training do you think they have in securing a Crime Scene and if so how long ago? How many Double Murders and Rapes do you think they handle every year? What is the size of their S.W.A.T. Team on the Island? The highest ranking Police Officer on the Island was on the stand and when asked by the Defense he said he was involved with 2 rapes but not including a murder in his Life-time. That should indicate the rest of the Police Men and there experience.

How long would it take to get a Profession Investigative Team together in Bangkok, with approval from the higher ups, plus all the equipment and supplies you are going to need? Then get from Bangkok to a remote island and unload everything then get to the Crime Scene? Have they even a place for them to all stay that night and sleep? Would you go if you had to sleep in the Jungle? Would you send your men to do that?

My point is Professional help was a long way off and since the Tide was coming in they had to do something quickly or risk losing all the evidence and maybe even the bodies. That is also why they asked for help from ordinary people. But then you would probably think all this was all staged to.

Lied about DNA?

They never did and that has never been proven anywhere, so this is not a "Fact" at all. So I will just throw that one in the Bull-shit Pile.

First, I acknowledge that it is unreasonable to expect perfect handling of the crime scene by the local police. However, one does not need to be a police general to know that a crime scene should be cordoned off and everyone not directly involved in the investigation kept out. Further, while the police on Koh Tao may not be very experienced, one would imagine they would inform Koh Samui and Surat Thani headquarters immediately. It does not take long to determine that a serious crime needing senior officers to take charge is needed (unless you consider the Koh Tao police too inexperienced to recognize this). Speed boats (if no helicopter is available) do not take that long to Koh Tao.

On the need to collect evidence before it was covered by the rising tide, I could not find tide tables for Koh Tao on the morning of September 15, but tables for Koh Samui (which should be similar) are available. Based on those, the water level was falling when the police arrived (low tide about 7:30 am) and high tide was not until after 3:00 pm. Also the tides were not very strong on that day.

Let us consider Mon's involvement, both because you brought it up, and because it is pretty key. Let us start with Mon's claim that he is the running man on the CCTV footage. From the time he walked past the camera until he is seen running back was about 50 minutes. What was he doing at the crime scene for about 45 minutes? Does Mon own a phone? Did he immediately inform the police?

You are making a lot of assumptions here which you do not know if they did or did not happen. The first WRONG one is you saying I brought Mons' name up. I did no such thing! I was asked by another poster here how I could explain certain things (which you deleted out) about Mon. If you are going to twist what has been written here then I have no interest in discussions with you on that subject.

If this was however an accidental mistake then lets' step back a few paces. You said low tide at 7:30 am and high tide at 3 pm. So 7 hours and 30 minutes from low tide to high tide. So lets put some times together here.

The bodies was reported by the media to have been found by a beach cleaner at around 6:30 am. What is the next logical thing to do once that happens and you are this cleaner? Well, I would gather you would want to report this, but to who? The Police, who may question your whereabouts that night, or your boss? I would go with My Boss (Mon).

So where would Mon most likely be at 6:30 am? In bed still perhaps? Awake and having his first cup of coffee? So now this beach cleaner has to go and find him. Is he in his hotel already or is he at home? But if you are with me so far he sooner or later finds him, tells him what he saw. As mentioned already, and if I was the Boss, I would want to see that for myself. Who knows for sure that this wasn't just some beached up dauphin, which this migrant worker saw?

So you go to the Crime Scene and witness these bodies for yourself. Now what? Well I gather you would want to get the Police involved at this stage and call them. Did you bring your mobile Phone with you, or did you forget it in all this excitement and have to go back and get it? So you contact the Police and an Officer comes to investigate. Because the Boss was still waiting there to show him the location he sees the dead bodies to. Now what?

Well, if I was this officer I would now want to call my Superior and ask instructions on what to do, then wait for him to show up to. What time are we looking at now? It is reported by the media that the Police Man in charge moved David from the sea on fear it might get washed away as the tide was coming in. Since low tide was 7:30 am then it would have had to been past this time. So shall we call this 8 am or 9 am?

Does the Police Man in charge have the authority to call in a Special Investigative Team from Bangkok. I would think he would need a higher rank than this. So now he would have to call his Superior on perhaps the next island over, and he to might want to see the Crime Scene to first. So now he is off to the Island, then call his Superior in Bangkok to get approval to send out a Special Investigative Team with supplies, and perhaps even tents to sleep in on the beach.

My point is that organizing something like this takes time. A lot of time. It is not just one simple telephone call away. Many people have to get involved first. The location is remote and the Police there are not specialists in dealing with crimes like this. There was no urgency to fly everyone in on a helicopter. The dead bodies aren't going anywhere.

So there was no way they could do this before 3 pm anyway, and high tide. Even if they could, who is to say that even at half tide, say 10:30 am that the Crime Scene may be completely covered in water already? Do you know that for sure? So the way I see it the Local Police were forced to make the best out of a bad situation and before all the evidence would have been washed away and out to sea, including the bodies.

And you say other people make a lot of assumptions!

Yes, you are right. I did make a lot of assumptions here.

I guess I sort of felt forced into it as from my early post I asked how long does it take to get a Professional Team from Bangkok, which was never answered.

[BritTim]

First, I acknowledge that it is unreasonable to expect perfect handling of the crime scene by the local police. However, one does not need to be a police general to know that a crime scene should be cordoned off and everyone not directly involved in the investigation kept out. Further, while the police on Koh Tao may not be very experienced, one would imagine they would inform Koh Samui and Surat Thani headquarters immediately. It does not take long to determine that a serious crime needing senior officers to take charge is needed (unless you consider the Koh Tao police too inexperienced to recognize this). Speed boats (if no helicopter is available) do not take that long to Koh Tao.

On the need to collect evidence before it was covered by the rising tide, I could not find tide tables for Koh Tao on the morning of September 15, but tables for Koh Samui (which should be similar) are available. Based on those, the water level was falling when the police arrived (low tide about 7:30 am) and high tide was not until after 3:00 pm. Also the tides were not very strong on that day.

Let us consider Mon's involvement, both because you brought it up, and because it is pretty key. Let us start with Mon's claim that he is the running man on the CCTV footage. From the time he walked past the camera until he is seen running back was about 50 minutes. What was he doing at the crime scene for about 45 minutes? Does Mon own a phone? Did he immediately inform the police?

You are making a lot of assumptions here which you do not know if they did or did not happen. The first WRONG one is you saying I brought Mons' name up. I did no such thing! I was asked by another poster here how I could explain certain things (which you deleted out) about Mon. If you are going to twist what has been written here then I have no interest in discussions with you on that subject.

If this was however an accidental mistake then lets' step back a few paces. You said low tide at 7:30 am and high tide at 3 pm. So 7 hours and 30 minutes from low tide to high tide. So lets put some times together here.

The bodies was reported by the media to have been found by a beach cleaner at around 6:30 am. What is the next logical thing to do once that happens and you are this cleaner? Well, I would gather you would want to report this, but to who? The Police, who may question your whereabouts that night, or your boss? I would go with My Boss (Mon).

So where would Mon most likely be at 6:30 am? In bed still perhaps? Awake and having his first cup of coffee? So now this beach cleaner has to go and find him. Is he in his hotel already or is he at home? But if you are with me so far he sooner or later finds him, tells him what he saw. As mentioned already, and if I was the Boss, I would want to see that for myself. Who knows for sure that this wasn't just some beached up dauphin, which this migrant worker saw?

So you go to the Crime Scene and witness these bodies for yourself. Now what? Well I gather you would want to get the Police involved at this stage and call them. Did you bring your mobile Phone with you, or did you forget it in all this excitement and have to go back and get it? So you contact the Police and an Officer comes to investigate. Because the Boss was still waiting there to show him the location he sees the dead bodies to. Now what?

Well, if I was this officer I would now want to call my Superior and ask instructions on what to do, then wait for him to show up to. What time are we looking at now? It is reported by the media that the Police Man in charge moved David from the sea on fear it might get washed away as the tide was coming in. Since low tide was 7:30 am then it would have had to been past this time. So shall we call this 8 am or 9 am?

Does the Police Man in charge have the authority to call in a Special Investigative Team from Bangkok. I would think he would need a higher rank than this. So now he would have to call his Superior on perhaps the next island over, and he to might want to see the Crime Scene to first. So now he is off to the Island, then call his Superior in Bangkok to get approval to send out a Special Investigative Team with supplies, and perhaps even tents to sleep in on the beach.

My point is that organizing something like this takes time. A lot of time. It is not just one simple telephone call away. Many people have to get involved first. The location is remote and the Police there are not specialists in dealing with crimes like this. There was no urgency to fly everyone in on a helicopter. The dead bodies aren't going anywhere.

So there was no way they could do this before 3 pm anyway, and high tide. Even if they could, who is to say that even at half tide, say 10:30 am that the Crime Scene may be completely covered in water already? Do you know that for sure? So the way I see it the Local Police were forced to make the best out of a bad situation and before all the evidence would have been washed away and out to sea, including the bodies.

Just two quick comments:

• Reports on the CCTV footage showing Mon (if you believe his statement that it is him) going to and from the crime scene differ a bit in details. However, they were definitely from a lot earlier than 6:30 am (most reports suggest before 5:00 am). This is one of the reports:

  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vmJdK52E6U. Early reports said the police were informed at 6:30 am.

• In most places, and I am sure Thailand Region 8 that includes Koh Tao, there are dedicated officers available at very short notice to investigate serious crimes. They would be expected to respond quickly to such crimes anywhere within their jurisdiction. I am shocked that, according to reports, it took them 5 hours to arrive. I wonder when Surat Thani headquarters were informed. There are no visa requirements for Surat Thani police to visit Koh Tao, and a fast boat takes less than 2 hours.

[phuketandsee]

"I know who he is "

"can you tell us if can be one of these disgusting people i hin at above ?"

"Possibly "

Oh go on, name and shame!

(You know you want to!)

[SiSePuede419]

"If the RTP had ever bothered to turn up to face the the Human Rights lawyer to answer the questions and investigate the allegations of torture then perhaps we would have had a clearer picture of this. This same lawyer also saw the wound marks on them from the alleged torture...."

There's only one rule of politics everywhere.

If the truth is on your side, you tell the truth.

If the truth ain't on your side, you lie. Or say nothing (to not incriminate yourself).

[JohnThailandJohn]

The Burmese government believes in the innocence of the Burmese kids.

Just to clarify ... So they Thai government is only concerned with looking good and not tarnishing the image of the country or people but Myanmar, one of the worst human right violators, is only concerned with truth and justice? This is the same country where the military commonly uses rape as a means to control its own people.

Thank you for that clarification and the point in regards to this case is?

The fact anyone can be as skeptical of Thailand's motivations and not only not question that of the Myanmar's but rather give them the benefit of the doubt no country should be given shows how far people will go to avoiding the obvious, logic and reality. Your question seems to be another example of this.

[HUH]

The Burmese government believes in the innocence of the Burmese kids.

Just to clarify ... So they Thai government is only concerned with looking good and not tarnishing the image of the country or people but Myanmar, one of the worst human right violators, is only concerned with truth and justice? This is the same country where the military commonly uses rape as a means to control its own people.

Thank you for that clarification and the point in regards to this case is?

The fact anyone can be as skeptical of Thailand's motivations and not only not question that of the Myanmar's but rather give them the benefit of the doubt no country should be given shows how far people will go to avoiding the obvious, logic and reality. Your question seems to be another example of this.

Your post looks like English but I cant understand a word your saying

[BritTim]

Yes, you are right. I did make a lot of assumptions here.

I guess I sort of felt forced into it as from my early post I asked how long does it take to get a Professional Team from Bangkok, which was never answered.

Why would we bother to answer such a question when Koh Tao falls under Police Region 8 (based in Surat Thani). Asking how long a team would take to come from New York has about as much relevance.

[GOLDBUGGY]

Was it ever explained why early on these two, outside of police presence admitted their guilt to their embassy, human rights worker and lawyers from the embassy? I am sure given people's here wild theories their is lots of hypothesis but has their lawyer ever explained why he publicly stated they confessed to him?

If the RTP had ever bothered to turn up to face the the Human Rights lawyer to answer the questions and investigate the allegations of torture then perhaps we would have had a clearer picture of this. This same lawyer also saw the wound marks on them from the alleged torture.

Hey 4 cancelled meetings later and the beloved RTP still failed to show and now we're at trial! What do you have to say on there failure to show?

Odd to me that the Doctor who examined them on the day after they were arrested and they confessed to these crimes, he did not report such injuries. I mean a Doctor who's sole purpose was to go there and exam them with a Trained Eye. Although it was reported by the media that both of the accused confessed to him to.

But then suddenly, 7 days later, or was it 10 days later, when the Lawyers show up, one the accused lawyers sees these injuries, or as you said. I mean one of the very few who cannot be put on the stand to testify against the accused. What a coincidence!

[glenmohr]

ps : we all know that numerous alias are raging here

You think this might be a good example of projecting how ones sees themselves onto others?

silverado

Member Since Today, 10:05

5 Posts all on this thread

And now then JTJ, what exactly has the number of posts made by any particular poster have to do with solving this case ? Do you not believe that all posters were created equal?

[smedly]

Time Magazine http://time.com/3955081/thailand-koh-tao-murder-david-miller-hannah-witheridge-zaw-lin-wai-phyo-burma-myanmar/

I'm guessing Prayuth will add this to the list of Banned media v soon..

Great article and well written, and for me this particular comment is the most damning

quote.....

"Thailand’s forensics chief, Dr. Pornthip Rojanasunand, has said that by not using trained specialists, “police contradicted the principles of forensic science.”

[GOLDBUGGY]

Yes, you are right. I did make a lot of assumptions here.

I guess I sort of felt forced into it as from my early post I asked how long does it take to get a Professional Team from Bangkok, which was never answered.

Why would we bother to answer such a question when Koh Tao falls under Police Region 8 (based in Surat Thani). Asking how long a team would take to come from New York has about as much relevance.

I didn't know that Surat Thani was close to new York. Thanks for the enlightenment BritTim.

[Darkknight666]

Was it ever explained why early on these two, outside of police presence admitted their guilt to their embassy, human rights worker and lawyers from the embassy? I am sure given people's here wild theories their is lots of hypothesis but has their lawyer ever explained why he publicly stated they confessed to him?

If the RTP had ever bothered to turn up to face the the Human Rights lawyer to answer the questions and investigate the allegations of torture then perhaps we would have had a clearer picture of this. This same lawyer also saw the wound marks on them from the alleged torture.

Hey 4 cancelled meetings later and the beloved RTP still failed to show and now we're at trial! What do you have to say on there failure to show?

Odd to me that the Doctor who examined them on the day after they were arrested and they confessed to these crimes, he did not report such injuries. I mean a Doctor who's sole purpose was to go there and exam them with a Trained Eye. Although it was reported by the media that both of the accused confessed to him to.

But then suddenly, 7 days later, or was it 10 days later, when the Lawyers show up, one the accused lawyers sees these injuries, or as you said. I mean one of the very few who cannot be put on the stand to testify against the accused. What a coincidence!

I haven't gone through all replies yet, apologies if I haven't responded to the other questions I had.

David was pulled from the sea and posed, 3 different ways while they were taking photos. Why? Even Thailand, if you must move a body at a crime scene you do it once as to keep things as neat as you can, for memories sake and so that the evidence collected is as accurate as possible. I'm not expecting CSI: New York, here, just simple procedures even a second year Smilin' Somchai would know how to follow. It's gross incompetence in photographic evidence.

Do you have any theories here?

[HUH]

Was it ever explained why early on these two, outside of police presence admitted their guilt to their embassy, human rights worker and lawyers from the embassy? I am sure given people's here wild theories their is lots of hypothesis but has their lawyer ever explained why he publicly stated they confessed to him?

If the RTP had ever bothered to turn up to face the the Human Rights lawyer to answer the questions and investigate the allegations of torture then perhaps we would have had a clearer picture of this. This same lawyer also saw the wound marks on them from the alleged torture.

Hey 4 cancelled meetings later and the beloved RTP still failed to show and now we're at trial! What do you have to say on there failure to show?

Odd to me that the Doctor who examined them on the day after they were arrested and they confessed to these crimes, he did not report such injuries. I mean a Doctor who's sole purpose was to go there and exam them with a Trained Eye. Although it was reported by the media that both of the accused confessed to him to.

But then suddenly, 7 days later, or was it 10 days later, when the Lawyers show up, one the accused lawyers sees these injuries, or as you said. I mean one of the very few who cannot be put on the stand to testify against the accused. What a coincidence!

Another very good example of the confusion caused when the RTP refuse to engage into an enquiry of the alleged tortures and so nothing but speculation is left, sound familiar?

[boomerangutang]

In the interest of the RTP possibly improving their abilities to investigate serious crimes, allow me to make a mention of how trained dogs could assist.

First off, GB pooped on an earlier mention of involving trained dogs, saying something about how it wouldn't have worked in this case because it was on a beach and the tide comes in and out.

Here's an example of how that's not true, and how dogs could have proved effective, even days after the crime:

>>> take a piece of clothing, let's say Hannah's shirt (with the scent of bodily fluids). Put it to dog's nose. Then take the dog, on a leash, to all places of interest. Suggest: Headman house and office, Mon's living quarters, nearby laundry facilities, places where Mon's tough-guy buddies dwell/sleep, Burmeses' dwelling, and so on. Maybe do the same at Nomsod's dwelling in Bkk, and where he does laundry. The idea being: a well-trained dog would seek any other things (clothing, weapons, etc) with Hannah's scent - thereby alerting the dog's handler on what to test for DNA/fingerprints/dandruff, etc. If anything remotely like that had been done within hours/days of the crime, this case would look a lot clearer. Even now, nearly a year later, it could be tried.

There are thousands of stories of dog sniffing miracles: One which stands out: 5 days after a murder at a suburban house, a trained dog was able to show a trail, across a rear lawn and through nearby woods. Discarded clothing was thereby found and tested, and the murderer was caught.

[BritTim]

I haven't gone through all replies yet, apologies if I haven't responded to the other questions I had.

David was pulled from the sea and posed, 3 different ways while they were taking photos. Why? Even Thailand, if you must move a body at a crime scene you do it once as to keep things as neat as you can, for memories sake and so that the evidence collected is as accurate as possible. I'm not expecting CSI: New York, here, just simple procedures even a second year Smilin' Somchai would know how to follow. It's gross incompetence in photographic evidence.

Do you have any theories here?

Not really. Occam's razor says mind boggling incompetence. Possibility: they did not know which pose would be most useful in the future when scapegoats were chosen. They wanted the option to discard the inconvenient ones at that point (as an economy measure) keeping only the ones that fit their story.

[GOLDBUGGY]

First, I acknowledge that it is unreasonable to expect perfect handling of the crime scene by the local police. However, one does not need to be a police general to know that a crime scene should be cordoned off and everyone not directly involved in the investigation kept out. Further, while the police on Koh Tao may not be very experienced, one would imagine they would inform Koh Samui and Surat Thani headquarters immediately. It does not take long to determine that a serious crime needing senior officers to take charge is needed (unless you consider the Koh Tao police too inexperienced to recognize this). Speed boats (if no helicopter is available) do not take that long to Koh Tao.

On the need to collect evidence before it was covered by the rising tide, I could not find tide tables for Koh Tao on the morning of September 15, but tables for Koh Samui (which should be similar) are available. Based on those, the water level was falling when the police arrived (low tide about 7:30 am) and high tide was not until after 3:00 pm. Also the tides were not very strong on that day.

Let us consider Mon's involvement, both because you brought it up, and because it is pretty key. Let us start with Mon's claim that he is the running man on the CCTV footage. From the time he walked past the camera until he is seen running back was about 50 minutes. What was he doing at the crime scene for about 45 minutes? Does Mon own a phone? Did he immediately inform the police?

You are making a lot of assumptions here which you do not know if they did or did not happen. The first WRONG one is you saying I brought Mons' name up. I did no such thing! I was asked by another poster here how I could explain certain things (which you deleted out) about Mon. If you are going to twist what has been written here then I have no interest in discussions with you on that subject.

If this was however an accidental mistake then lets' step back a few paces. You said low tide at 7:30 am and high tide at 3 pm. So 7 hours and 30 minutes from low tide to high tide. So lets put some times together here.

The bodies was reported by the media to have been found by a beach cleaner at around 6:30 am. What is the next logical thing to do once that happens and you are this cleaner? Well, I would gather you would want to report this, but to who? The Police, who may question your whereabouts that night, or your boss? I would go with My Boss (Mon).

So where would Mon most likely be at 6:30 am? In bed still perhaps? Awake and having his first cup of coffee? So now this beach cleaner has to go and find him. Is he in his hotel already or is he at home? But if you are with me so far he sooner or later finds him, tells him what he saw. As mentioned already, and if I was the Boss, I would want to see that for myself. Who knows for sure that this wasn't just some beached up dauphin, which this migrant worker saw?

So you go to the Crime Scene and witness these bodies for yourself. Now what? Well I gather you would want to get the Police involved at this stage and call them. Did you bring your mobile Phone with you, or did you forget it in all this excitement and have to go back and get it? So you contact the Police and an Officer comes to investigate. Because the Boss was still waiting there to show him the location he sees the dead bodies to. Now what?

Well, if I was this officer I would now want to call my Superior and ask instructions on what to do, then wait for him to show up to. What time are we looking at now? It is reported by the media that the Police Man in charge moved David from the sea on fear it might get washed away as the tide was coming in. Since low tide was 7:30 am then it would have had to been past this time. So shall we call this 8 am or 9 am?

Does the Police Man in charge have the authority to call in a Special Investigative Team from Bangkok. I would think he would need a higher rank than this. So now he would have to call his Superior on perhaps the next island over, and he to might want to see the Crime Scene to first. So now he is off to the Island, then call his Superior in Bangkok to get approval to send out a Special Investigative Team with supplies, and perhaps even tents to sleep in on the beach.

My point is that organizing something like this takes time. A lot of time. It is not just one simple telephone call away. Many people have to get involved first. The location is remote and the Police there are not specialists in dealing with crimes like this. There was no urgency to fly everyone in on a helicopter. The dead bodies aren't going anywhere.

So there was no way they could do this before 3 pm anyway, and high tide. Even if they could, who is to say that even at half tide, say 10:30 am that the Crime Scene may be completely covered in water already? Do you know that for sure? So the way I see it the Local Police were forced to make the best out of a bad situation and before all the evidence would have been washed away and out to sea, including the bodies.

Just two quick comments:

• Reports on the CCTV footage showing Mon (if you believe his statement that it is him) going to and from the crime scene differ a bit in details. However, they were definitely from a lot earlier than 6:30 am (most reports suggest before 5:00 am). This is one of the reports:

  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vmJdK52E6U. Early reports said the police were informed at 6:30 am.

• In most places, and I am sure Thailand Region 8 that includes Koh Tao, there are dedicated officers available at very short notice to investigate serious crimes. They would be expected to respond quickly to such crimes anywhere within their jurisdiction. I am shocked that, according to reports, it took them 5 hours to arrive. I wonder when Surat Thani headquarters were informed. There are no visa requirements for Surat Thani police to visit Koh Tao, and a fast boat takes less than 2 hours.

No! I am sorry but most reports say the bodies where discovered at 6:30 am. Some guy running does not indicate the time when they were discovered. This link indicated a guy running at 5 am, which with this grainy CCTV could be anyone going out for a jog at that time.

So you say it took 5 hours then. To be honest I never saw that written before, but for the sake of argument, and until proven differently, lets agree.That places them on the Island at 11:30 am. According to 1 poster that places them their 4 hours after low tide. Since David was found in the sea, and obviously his face under water, I wonder where that would place him 4 hours later with the Tide coming in, if they hadn't move him? On his way to Pattaya maybe?

[Darkknight666]

I haven't gone through all replies yet, apologies if I haven't responded to the other questions I had.

David was pulled from the sea and posed, 3 different ways while they were taking photos. Why? Even Thailand, if you must move a body at a crime scene you do it once as to keep things as neat as you can, for memories sake and so that the evidence collected is as accurate as possible. I'm not expecting CSI: New York, here, just simple procedures even a second year Smilin' Somchai would know how to follow. It's gross incompetence in photographic evidence.

Do you have any theories here?

Not really. Occam's razor says mind boggling incompetence. Possibility: they did not know which pose would be most useful in the future when scapegoats were chosen. They wanted the option to discard the inconvenient ones at that point (as an economy measure) keeping only the ones that fit their story.

Well tough luck, The person who uploaded them to Imgur pulled them down almost immediately... But people have them saved away. So, they're available even if RTP don't have them.

[fab99]

Was it ever explained why early on these two, outside of police presence admitted their guilt to their embassy, human rights worker and lawyers from the embassy? I am sure given people's here wild theories their is lots of hypothesis but has their lawyer ever explained why he publicly stated they confessed to him?

If the RTP had ever bothered to turn up to face the the Human Rights lawyer to answer the questions and investigate the allegations of torture then perhaps we would have had a clearer picture of this. This same lawyer also saw the wound marks on them from the alleged torture.

Hey 4 cancelled meetings later and the beloved RTP still failed to show and now we're at trial! What do you have to say on there failure to show?

Odd to me that the Doctor who examined them on the day after they were arrested and they confessed to these crimes, he did not report such injuries. I mean a Doctor who's sole purpose was to go there and exam them with a Trained Eye. Although it was reported by the media that both of the accused confessed to him to.

But then suddenly, 7 days later, or was it 10 days later, when the Lawyers show up, one the accused lawyers sees these injuries, or as you said. I mean one of the very few who cannot be put on the stand to testify against the accused. What a coincidence!

We have been through this already before in this thread, torture doesn't necessarily leaves traces on the body, only bad torturers do...

I recall some ex marines in this thread said there are many ways to make you confessed you are your sister's father without leaving a trace (just an absurd example).

We already said they were probably scared in prison at the beginning, they have probably been threatened (as have the 18 translators in Samui...) and only when they felt more secure they said they were forced to confess (in a "safe house" by the way, not at the police station with lawyers or recording, suspicious and unfair isn't it?).

The RTP have never answered the calls for clarifications about the confession and the multiple reports of tortures and threats.

Your strategy has always been to focus your answers on a few single unclear topics and avoiding to answer the one too difficult to spin.

As for the new attempt to discredit the defense in the last few pages (they are paid, the one that said they confessed has been "fired", evil Myanmar is financing the defense...), it is really telling.

Every one should have a good defense, including these two, and thumbs up to the lawyers and Andy who work on the case, it sure would be easier to avoid the case like the plague, and those saying they are doing it for financial reasons should think twice.

I did't intervene so much until now, but I read from time to time and it is sad (or rather unsettling) to see the general atmosphere of this thread, a lot of people sceptical of this case writing from time to time and a few others convinced the B2 are guilty (or even more convinced others are innocent) spending a lot of time trying to spin everything all the time.

GB, I am maybe mistaken, but I think you are French, like me, I don't get why you spend so much time on this thread writing very long posts, can you explain what are you motivations ? Just curious, I just want to understand...

[smedly]

Was it ever explained why early on these two, outside of police presence admitted their guilt to their embassy, human rights worker and lawyers from the embassy? I am sure given people's here wild theories their is lots of hypothesis but has their lawyer ever explained why he publicly stated they confessed to him?

You think you will cast doubt by asking this question?

The vast majority of people believe migrants workers (the B2 being part of them) have been threatened and hurt in the process of finding scapegoats, there are reports and pictures of burn skin.

Don't you think they were scared in prison and threatened as well, they retracted when they felt they could as the media was covering it extensively, something happening to them would have been too suspicious and they were then "safer" (a convenient "suicide" was kind of expected at the beginning).

I think you should put yourself in their shoes one minute (but I don't think you would) and imagine yourself trapped for months even if you haven't done anything else than having a few smokes not far from the scene of a totally inhumane crime. I strongly believe these two young guys with no prior problem with the law didn't do it, it took more people ( I should say beasts not people) to savagely murder these two young innocent tourists.

I don't understand how some of you can believe the B2 did it, so strongly so that you have to spend so much time in this forum trying to make it look like the vast majority isn't on the "conspiracy theory" (lol) side...

correct, and may I also add - something vile and evil was on that beach that night, I just don't see it in these two young men, However, I do know where I do see it, a cowardly crime such as this requires a special type of person, someone that believes they are untouchable

[Rykbanlor]

How come the certain posters are still posting huge long-winded posts related to details of the crime scene, which they keep screaming is speculation or fact or proven or disproven, yet on the very simple topic of why all the translators have been scared off and no-one is willing to work the case they remain deafeningly silent?

GB, do you maybe have a few paragraphs to spare on this point? Or maybe this is the machinations of the evil Andy Hall at work, twisting the facts and tweeting the lies?

[BritTim]

I haven't gone through all replies yet, apologies if I haven't responded to the other questions I had.

David was pulled from the sea and posed, 3 different ways while they were taking photos. Why? Even Thailand, if you must move a body at a crime scene you do it once as to keep things as neat as you can, for memories sake and so that the evidence collected is as accurate as possible. I'm not expecting CSI: New York, here, just simple procedures even a second year Smilin' Somchai would know how to follow. It's gross incompetence in photographic evidence.

Do you have any theories here?

Not really. Occam's razor says mind boggling incompetence. Possibility: they did not know which pose would be most useful in the future when scapegoats were chosen. They wanted the option to discard the inconvenient ones at that point (as an economy measure) keeping only the ones that fit their story.

Well tough luck, The person who uploaded them to Imgur pulled them down almost immediately... But people have them saved away. So, they're available even if RTP don't have them.

Quite so. However, the RTP testified in court that most of their photos of the crime scene were no longer available. Apparently, they lack the budget to store them. It is not clear how much this will hamper attempts to get at the truth.

[webfact]

Thailand backpackers murder trial resumes, focus on DNA evidence
KOH SAMUI, THAILAND | BY AMY SAWITTA LEFEVRE

KOH SAMUI: -- Defence lawyers in the trial of two Myanmar men accused of killing two British backpackers on a Thai resort island last year said on Wednesday they would focus on the reliability of crucial DNA evidence.

British tourists Hannah Witheridge, 23, and David Miller, 24, were killed last September. Their bodies were found on a beach on Koh Tao, a Thai island in the Andaman Sea popular with backpackers and divers.

The killings drew outrage in Britain and raised questions about the competence of Thai police and the treatment of migrant labourers in Thailand.

Following weeks of pressure on authorities to solve the crime, Thai police said in October that Myanmar workers Zaw Lin and Win Zaw Htun, both 22, had initially confessed to the killings.

Full story: http://uk.reuters.com/article/2015/07/22/uk-thailand-britain-murder-idUKKCN0PW03320150722


-- Reuters 2015-07-22