Koh Tao murder trial reconvenes in Koh Samui

[StealthEnergiser]

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Jonah Fisher‏@JonahFisherBBC

@Atomicalandy What about suggesting a possible alternative narrative? Will that form any part of defense?

[StealthEnergiser]

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Andy Hall‏@Atomicalandy

@JonahFisherBBC but at end of day, this case primarily about innocence or guilt of accused Wai Phyo/Zaw Lin. Alternative scenarios for later

[StealthEnergiser]

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Andy Hall‏@Atomicalandy

@JonahFisherBBC but certainly throughout the defense witness testimony, again there would be implications of alternative scenarios appearing

[thailandchilli]

Chemical treatment using dyes can alter the cuticle. Dyes can easily penetrate the spaces between the scaly cells forming the hair cuticle or even raise them in order to be better absorbed by the hair. Peroxides, one of the main constituent chemicals in hair dyes, heavily contribute to the degradation of DNA in hair. Peroxides act by specifically breaking the phosphodiester bonds in DNA. Once the hair is exposed to water on washing, the DNA is easily washed out of the hair fibers. The higher the number of washes, the more DNA is lost from the hairs. This loss of DNA is not only due to the degradation and breaking down of the phosphodiester bonds in DNA but also to the damage caused to the hair by simply washing it.

http://www.forensicmag.com/articles/2013/04/challenges-dna-testing-and-forensic-analysis-hair-samples

The above presumes your testing the hair with no root, however its clearly stated the root was in the hair sample that Hannah had in her hand, in any case who is to say this hair was actually dyed? They mentioned a blonde hair, that does not necessarily mean it was dyed blond, and then more contradictions arose later with them being not sure what colour it was.

from the same article

Although nuclear DNA cannot be isolated from the hair shaft since it is mostly absent as a result of the aforementioned cornification, nuclear DNA can successfully be extracted from the hair root.

[Gweiloman]

Tweet from AH: "Koh Tao trial day 13 final prosecution witness still on stand for cross examination.Lots of last minute prosecution documents given to court."

"Lots of last minute prosecution documents given to court." underhanded tactics: prosecution drop a bunch of papers on the court, during their last remaining minutes, knowing there's not enough time left for defense to read or respond to them.

If I was the judge, I'd say to prosecution: "sorry guys. We have protocol for how to submit evidence. You can't just drop a bunch of papers on my desk and say, 'there you see - there's more proof of guilt,' and then just walk away. Mai dee, dudes. I won't accept these papers."

Why is there a need to give lots of documents at the last minute? One would imagine that this would be done only if they feel that their case was not strong enough.

Could it also be that they (the prosecution) have some shills on TV to try and collect information? To see what armchair detectives and amateur sleuths bring up in order to try and strengthen their case? It would be interesting to know if these documents were recently prepared or have been in the files for many months

[boomerangutang]

All accessories items such as telephone, hair, traces hoe on the condom and cigarette butts are only presumptions. Certainly important but debatable ad infinitum.

However the DNA match (or discordance) will be the indisputable proof.

The defence will certainly make its case to challenge the validity of the analyzes. But his options are limited for the following reasons:

1- Sampling and examination on the bodies of victims predates that performed on suspects. He probably left traces in the body sent in the UK. It will be difficult to challenge.

2- The challenge for suspects is worthless. The DNA does not change with time, and at any time any lawyer can get against expertise.

That is why the courts and justice exist and have more credibility than lounge detectives.

100% sure that this DNA evidence was not manipulated? Did you see where Dr. Pornthip had concerns over the process? Is there a guarantee that the B2 DNA found on the cigarettes, that the cigarettes actually came from the beach? Upon requested further DNA review later, it had been "lost".

As you peel an onion it does get smellier.

Oh jeez, the cig but again. Besides the fact that RTP detective said its DNA "was all used up," it never was important to the case. It reminds me of the time (true story) I went with a friend in the US, waaaaay out in the boonies to a cabin of a guy who had split the area and said we could take whatever we wanted. I was considering some ok furniture to haul away. My friend was busy taking little thumb tacks out of the wooden walls. I asked, "what are you doing?" He said, "hey, thumb tacks ain't cheap."

[fireplay]

Lets look at this Sean Mckenna (sorry if I have that spelling wrong) again.

Why did Sean have blood on him? He also bled onto his guitar.

Why were the AC bar guys chasing him (?), there are pictures of him hiding out in a minimart as those angry guys were outside. He posted via his phone "They are after me".

Why did he post "David was a hero".

Could he have been in the fight with David, saw it was going badly and split before he too was killed?

And why was there blood on his guitar 5 6 7 or 8 days after 1. He arrived and claimed to be in a motosai accident the first day he arrived...and 2. After that fateful morning of the 15th September. Sean bailed a week later or whatever...why did he leave the blood on his guitar? A punk rock statement...or...

[boomerangutang]

Tweet from AH: "Koh Tao trial day 13 final prosecution witness still on stand for cross examination.Lots of last minute prosecution documents given to court."

"Lots of last minute prosecution documents given to court." underhanded tactics: prosecution drop a bunch of papers on the court, during their last remaining minutes, knowing there's not enough time left for defense to read or respond to them.

If I was the judge, I'd say to prosecution: "sorry guys. We have protocol for how to submit evidence. You can't just drop a bunch of papers on my desk and say, 'there you see - there's more proof of guilt,' and then just walk away. Mai dee, dudes. I won't accept these papers."

Why is there a need to give lots of documents at the last minute? One would imagine that this would be done only if they feel that their case was not strong enough.

Could it also be that they (the prosecution) have some shills on TV to try and collect information? To see what armchair detectives and amateur sleuths bring up in order to try and strengthen their case? It would be interesting to know if these documents were recently prepared or have been in the files for many months

I think the primary reason is: by slapping those papers on the judge's desk at the last few minutes, they precluded the defense from challenging any of it. I would expect such tactics from randy 10 year old, but not from supposed professionals. It's like if a big sister said to her 10 yr old brother and his buddies, "Hey guys, who took the cookies out of the jar? They were here a little while ago, and now I want one." The boys say they didn't do it, but all of a sudden (after some whispering), they take the remaining cookie bits from their pockets, drop them on the table and quickly run out the door laughing.

[Darkknight666]

From Andy Hall's Twitter account:

Andy Hall ‏@Atomicalandy 23h

23 hours ago

Either 2mrw or 2nd Sept defense witnesses start. Today defense team/translators preparing accused for their testimony

So I was wondering what might be their testimony and their responses on cross but you guys are talking about bail and assisted suicide in prison, huh?

So you believe that's outside the realm of possibilities in Thailand? I think it's a possibility.

I do hope the B2 have more to say other than they were sleeping so have no idea.

they might have little more to say than we already know or have discussed here, would you like them to lie and make it up, I am expecting them to fill in some blanks - like how they got home that morning (prosecution/police claimed on the motorbike) and the route they took raising questions as to why they were not captured on cctv that were obviously working - stuff like that, to me their best defense is raising obvious questions about why the police have covered up or excluded evidence that would debunk the case against them

You're really asking me if I want the B2 to lie on the stand? Settle down.

[Gweiloman]

From Andy Hall's Twitter account:

Andy Hall ‏@Atomicalandy 23h

23 hours ago

Either 2mrw or 2nd Sept defense witnesses start. Today defense team/translators preparing accused for their testimony

So I was wondering what might be their testimony and their responses on cross but you guys are talking about bail and assisted suicide in prison, huh?

So you believe that's outside the realm of possibilities in Thailand? I think it's a possibility.

I do hope the B2 have more to say other than they were sleeping so have no idea.

they might have little more to say than we already know or have discussed here, would you like them to lie and make it up, I am expecting them to fill in some blanks - like how they got home that morning (prosecution/police claimed on the motorbike) and the route they took raising questions as to why they were not captured on cctv that were obviously working - stuff like that, to me their best defense is raising obvious questions about why the police have covered up or excluded evidence that would debunk the case against them

You're really asking me if I want the B2 to lie on the stand? Settle down.

I think you might have misunderstood smedly's post. I think he means that he hopes the B2 can provide a more detailed and rock solid story / alibi. There are too many missing bits in between them sitting on the log and returning home to sleep. Maybe they heard something. Maybe they were called upon to do something, etc etc

[Madaussie]

Hannah was clutching a hair, it came out by the roots, in other words she pulled it out of the attackers head! The hair does not belong to David, it does not belong to the B2. There's a killer on the loose and the whole case against the B2 is a sham. The scenario the RTP have said happened is false. For Gods sake get out there again and re investigate this case the victims deserve more than this charade as do the parents of the victims.

agreed, but I'd like to add this, the most common place to find DNA evidence on both victims and perps of this sort of violent close encounter crime is under finger nails, for the perp it is hard to remove and often overlooked and can remain there for a very long time, have you ever done some motor servicing and got that dirty black oil in behind your nails, not easy to remove

Theres the UK autopsy results coming so lets see what it discloses.

[Gweiloman]

Hannah was clutching a hair, it came out by the roots, in other words she pulled it out of the attackers head! The hair does not belong to David, it does not belong to the B2. There's a killer on the loose and the whole case against the B2 is a sham. The scenario the RTP have said happened is false. For Gods sake get out there again and re investigate this case the victims deserve more than this charade as do the parents of the victims.

agreed, but I'd like to add this, the most common place to find DNA evidence on both victims and perps of this sort of violent close encounter crime is under finger nails, for the perp it is hard to remove and often overlooked and can remain there for a very long time, have you ever done some motor servicing and got that dirty black oil in behind your nails, not easy to remove

Theres the UK autopsy results coming so lets see what it discloses.

Would this be admissible in court?

[Madaussie]

I'd guess it was Day 13 sir, as there's been a lot more than 13 prosecution witnesses but a lot less that they 65 claimed they had.!!

To be honest, this judge is not up to this case either, he should have put his foot down and said "no more evidence or documents or else I will call a mistrial" but he wont as the whole court case is a red herring and a show case, the verdict is already known.

I really do hope that's it not predetermined already.

[Madaussie]

All accessories items such as telephone, hair, traces hoe on the condom and cigarette butts are only presumptions. Certainly important but debatable ad infinitum.

However the DNA match (or discordance) will be the indisputable proof.

The defence will certainly make its case to challenge the validity of the analyzes. But his options are limited for the following reasons:

1- Sampling and examination on the bodies of victims predates that performed on suspects. He probably left traces in the body sent in the UK. It will be difficult to challenge.

2- The challenge for suspects is worthless. The DNA does not change with time, and at any time any lawyer can get against expertise.

That is why the courts and justice exist and have more credibility than lounge detectives.

Your last sentence made me laugh. BTW, DNA at best can only be circumstantial evidence that needs to have other 'evidence' to support it.

Not in Thailand M8..

[Jai Dee]

Several posts have had to be edited due to the use of oversized fonts.

In future they won't be edited, simply deleted.

[Madaussie]

Hannah was clutching a hair, it came out by the roots, in other words she pulled it out of the attackers head! The hair does not belong to David, it does not belong to the B2. There's a killer on the loose and the whole case against the B2 is a sham. The scenario the RTP have said happened is false. For Gods sake get out there again and re investigate this case the victims deserve more than this charade as do the parents of the victims.

agreed, but I'd like to add this, the most common place to find DNA evidence on both victims and perps of this sort of violent close encounter crime is under finger nails, for the perp it is hard to remove and often overlooked and can remain there for a very long time, have you ever done some motor servicing and got that dirty black oil in behind your nails, not easy to remove

Theres the UK autopsy results coming so lets see what it discloses.

Would this be admissible in court?

Yes. The defence has an expert witness as well coming from the UK. He is under contract to the MOD in the UK, he worked on the UN forensic operation in Kosovo, a crime of scenes officer for several police forces as high as manager.. The guy knows his stuff.

CV below:

Michael Riggs-Moulden

Title Forensic, Crime Scene & Exploitation Consultant and Trainer. Demographic info United Kingdom | Law Enforcement Current Subject Matter Expert at UK Ministry of Defence Past Forensic Consultant at EULEX Kosovo, European Union Rule of Law Mission, Head of Forensic Services at Special Anti Crime Unit, Scenes of Crime Of... Education Cranfield University

[saminoz]

I'd guess it was Day 13 sir, as there's been a lot more than 13 prosecution witnesses but a lot less that they 65 claimed they had.!!

To be honest, this judge is not up to this case either, he should have put his foot down and said "no more evidence or documents or else I will call a mistrial" but he wont as the whole court case is a red herring and a show case, the verdict is already known.

I really do hope that's it not predetermined already.

That's the core of the issue here Madaussie,

We witnessed an obvious scapegoating developing withing days of the murders and, somehow, came together on this forum, and others, to try and derail what was rapidly becoming a steamrollering of two innocent Burmese towards the "gallows".

It was obvious, to those of us,with a reasonable amount of Thai experience, what was happening so we started to rise our voices in dissent and defense of the B2.

Had this not occurred, it seems obvious that these two hapless scapegoats would have been found guilty (as the RTP and other interested parties intended) and could well be history by now.

I believe this is the first time in history that the arrogant, unprofessional and visibly corrupt practices of the RTP supporting the equally corrupt patriarchal system has been exposed to this much scrutiny. It is for this reason, and this reason alone, IMO, that we have the level of visibility of this trial now.

What needs to come under the microscope next, after - presumably, hopefully and rightfully - the B2 are found innocent, are the actions of the RTP, other players and here, on TVF, why certain members lunged to protect certain persons, establishments and, probably,their own little parochial interests.

I have certain info on some of the so-called "apologists and shills" and will undoubtedly reveal these if I see them trying to derail the defense's revelations. They are clearly working to an agenda and if I have to reveal some information (all available in the public domain, by the way, if you care to really look), then I will.

<snip>

Edited September 2, 2015 by Jai Dee
comment on moderation removed

[Darkknight666]

From Andy Hall's Twitter account:

Andy Hall ‏@Atomicalandy 23h

23 hours ago

Either 2mrw or 2nd Sept defense witnesses start. Today defense team/translators preparing accused for their testimony

So I was wondering what might be their testimony and their responses on cross but you guys are talking about bail and assisted suicide in prison, huh?

So you believe that's outside the realm of possibilities in Thailand? I think it's a possibility.

I do hope the B2 have more to say other than they were sleeping so have no idea.

they might have little more to say than we already know or have discussed here, would you like them to lie and make it up, I am expecting them to fill in some blanks - like how they got home that morning (prosecution/police claimed on the motorbike) and the route they took raising questions as to why they were not captured on cctv that were obviously working - stuff like that, to me their best defense is raising obvious questions about why the police have covered up or excluded evidence that would debunk the case against them

You're really asking me if I want the B2 to lie on the stand? Settle down.

I think you might have misunderstood smedly's post. I think he means that he hopes the B2 can provide a more detailed and rock solid story / alibi. There are too many missing bits in between them sitting on the log and returning home to sleep. Maybe they heard something. Maybe they were called upon to do something, etc etc

We essentially said the same thing, Only he asked if I wanted them to "make it up"... Which, Obviously I do not.

What I meant was I'm hoping they say exactly what they know no matter what.

[Jai Dee]

One post containing discussion of moderation and another post containing a personal flame have been removed from this thread.

[webfact]

Zaw Lin accused of Koh Tao murders takes the stand as the defense present their case



KOH SAMUI: -- Zaw Lin, one of the two migrant workers charged with the Koh Tao murders took the stand in Koh Samui Provincial court today, 2nd September 2015, a day later than expected. After twelve days of prosecution evidence one further day was required for the testimony of a senior police officer who took the stand on the 1st of September in a hearing that did not close until 1.02am.

The court session, due to reconvene at 10am today got underway at 10-30. In front of a packed court room including members of both Hannah Witheridge and David Millers family. 22 year old Zaw Lin faced the judges with a translator to his left. Giving his testimony in Burmese the accused was questioned by the defense team on his movements on the night of the murders.

Bar worker Zaw Lin seemed confident in delivering his testimony despite the stressful situation. His mother as well as the mother of his co-accused Wei Phyo, were also in the court room.

After initially confessing to the crime, both Zaw Lin and Wei Phyo, both from Rakhine State, retracted their confessions claiming their admission of guilt was the result of torture. Although the police strenuously deny any allegations of torture a cell mate of the accused testified he had seen wounds on the accused bodies and Zaw Lin was taken to Samui Hospital complaining of chest pains after his incarceration.

The court also heard that the accused were initially questioned by the police via translators from Myanmar who do not speak the Rakhine dialect or have full comprehension of the Thai language. The witnesses for the prosecution have largely been police officers. DNA linking the pair to the crime has also been presented, however leading Thai pathologist Porntip Rojanansund, has been highly critical of the way the forensic investigation was conducted, she is due to take the stand later this month.

The trial that started on the 8th of July, will break once again after today’s hearing, originally due to reconvene on the 22nd of September the 11th has now been earmarked as an additional date for the defense team.


-- Samui Times 2015-09-02

[Lozza]

But DNA found on Miss Witheridges body and a cigarette butt nearby did not match samples taken from three Westerners, including Chris, and nine migrant workers.

http://liverpoolinnews.com/agony-of-british-beach-murder-victims-family-as-clueless-thai-police-probe-descends-into-farce-after-dna-tests-clear-jersey-brothers-and-10-other-suspects-over-their-deaths/

Anyone know who the other two 'westerners' were whose DNA did not match apart from Chris Ware? As far as I'm aware, there has never been any mention of the two young blonde men sitting at the back of this photo.

Of course - James Ware was one of them. He left the island the day or night before the murders apparently. Was the other one McAnna - anyone know?

That photo was taken in the U.K. the second hirl on the left is David's girlfriend.

No neither is McAnna. He looks like this.

sean-mcanna-lotus.jpg

Yes. And this is the state of his guitar when he leaves Koh Tao. Not something we should forget.

Don't get me going about McAnna. The one guy who spoke out. Also the guy who was named as seen with a lot of blood on him. Gets police escort of the islands a few hours after his allegations.

Anyway you know this whole case is riddle with madness. And one I doubt we will never work out unless someone pillow talks after a heavy night or bout of guilt Don't hold your breath though..

Actually I'm 100% confident that someone will spill the beans or as I've said before one of the UK Sunday papers will latch on to it, probably already are, and the truth will come out. This whole case is unprecedented in Thai courts and there is generally a interest in this case. Let's be honest here whoever gets the real story is going to sell so many papers etc. not what's important to most including me I might add but a paper could bring down the court and police set up in Thailand overnight if the real story comes out. And as I said It will for sure. Money and time will ensure it will.

[Madaussie]

The court session, due to reconvene at 10am today got underway at 10-30. In front of a packed court room including members of both Hannah Witheridge and David Millers family

Is that true? I didn't think they had attended?

[uty6543]

Hannah was clutching a hair, it came out by the roots, in other words she pulled it out of the attackers head! The hair does not belong to David, it does not belong to the B2. There's a killer on the loose and the whole case against the B2 is a sham. The scenario the RTP have said happened is false. For Gods sake get out there again and re investigate this case the victims deserve more than this charade as do the parents of the victims.

agreed, but I'd like to add this, the most common place to find DNA evidence on both victims and perps of this sort of violent close encounter crime is under finger nails, for the perp it is hard to remove and often overlooked and can remain there for a very long time, have you ever done some motor servicing and got that dirty black oil in behind your nails, not easy to remove

Theres the UK autopsy results coming so lets see what it discloses.

Would this be admissible in court?

Maybe or maybe not but it is admissible in the press and would make it harder for the court to convict knowing that DNA from a unbiased source contradicts the RTP version.

[Basil B]

I'd guess it was Day 13 sir, as there's been a lot more than 13 prosecution witnesses but a lot less that they 65 claimed they had.!!

To be honest, this judge is not up to this case either, he should have put his foot down and said "no more evidence or documents or else I will call a mistrial" but he wont as the whole court case is a red herring and a show case, the verdict is already known.

Judge Judges, 3 of them...

Does Thai law allow for mistrial, could not the judges just refuse to review the additional evidence?

[Gweiloman]

Listen up guys and gals, trial is now becoming interesting as it's the defence's turn. If you want to keep your posting rights, do not get baited in by you know who (those that should not be named). Do not engage directly. If you must comment, copy and paste and start your post with something like "it was mentioned by another poster........"

At the same time, in order to keep objective, be as critical of the defence's case as you were about the prosecution's if you feel the defence is also shambolic (though I think it highly unlikely, considering that even the least credible of their witnesses surely cannot fumble as much as the prosecution's star (phantom) witness.

[AleG]

Zaw Lin accused of Koh Tao murders takes the stand as the defense present their case

KOH SAMUI: -- Zaw Lin, one of the two migrant workers charged with the Koh Tao murders took the stand in Koh Samui Provincial court today, 2nd September 2015, a day later than expected. After twelve days of prosecution evidence one further day was required for the testimony of a senior police officer who took the stand on the 1st of September in a hearing that did not close until 1.02am.

The court session, due to reconvene at 10am today got underway at 10-30. In front of a packed court room including members of both Hannah Witheridge and David Millers family. 22 year old Zaw Lin faced the judges with a translator to his left. Giving his testimony in Burmese the accused was questioned by the defense team on his movements on the night of the murders.

Bar worker Zaw Lin seemed confident in delivering his testimony despite the stressful situation. His mother as well as the mother of his co-accused Wei Phyo, were also in the court room.

After initially confessing to the crime, both Zaw Lin and Wei Phyo, both from Rakhine State, retracted their confessions claiming their admission of guilt was the result of torture. Although the police strenuously deny any allegations of torture a cell mate of the accused testified he had seen wounds on the accused bodies and Zaw Lin was taken to Samui Hospital complaining of chest pains after his incarceration.

The court also heard that the accused were initially questioned by the police via translators from Myanmar who do not speak the Rakhine dialect or have full comprehension of the Thai language. The witnesses for the prosecution have largely been police officers. DNA linking the pair to the crime has also been presented, however leading Thai pathologist Porntip Rojanansund, has been highly critical of the way the forensic investigation was conducted, she is due to take the stand later this month.

The trial that started on the 8th of July, will break once again after today’s hearing, originally due to reconvene on the 22nd of September the 11th has now been earmarked as an additional date for the defense team.

-- Samui Times 2015-09-02

So here it is:

"DNA linking the pair to the crime has also been presented"

I hope this puts the argument that no evidence, DNA or otherwise, has been presented to rest.

[Rykbanlor]

Sure, moving swiftly on...

[Madaussie]

Zaw Lin accused of Koh Tao murders takes the stand as the defense present their case

KOH SAMUI: -- Zaw Lin, one of the two migrant workers charged with the Koh Tao murders took the stand in Koh Samui Provincial court today, 2nd September 2015, a day later than expected. After twelve days of prosecution evidence one further day was required for the testimony of a senior police officer who took the stand on the 1st of September in a hearing that did not close until 1.02am.

The court session, due to reconvene at 10am today got underway at 10-30. In front of a packed court room including members of both Hannah Witheridge and David Millers family. 22 year old Zaw Lin faced the judges with a translator to his left. Giving his testimony in Burmese the accused was questioned by the defense team on his movements on the night of the murders.

Bar worker Zaw Lin seemed confident in delivering his testimony despite the stressful situation. His mother as well as the mother of his co-accused Wei Phyo, were also in the court room.

After initially confessing to the crime, both Zaw Lin and Wei Phyo, both from Rakhine State, retracted their confessions claiming their admission of guilt was the result of torture. Although the police strenuously deny any allegations of torture a cell mate of the accused testified he had seen wounds on the accused bodies and Zaw Lin was taken to Samui Hospital complaining of chest pains after his incarceration.

The court also heard that the accused were initially questioned by the police via translators from Myanmar who do not speak the Rakhine dialect or have full comprehension of the Thai language. The witnesses for the prosecution have largely been police officers. DNA linking the pair to the crime has also been presented, however leading Thai pathologist Porntip Rojanansund, has been highly critical of the way the forensic investigation was conducted, she is due to take the stand later this month.

The trial that started on the 8th of July, will break once again after today’s hearing, originally due to reconvene on the 22nd of September the 11th has now been earmarked as an additional date for the defense team.

-- Samui Times 2015-09-02

So here it is:

"DNA linking the pair to the crime has also been presented"

I hope this puts the argument that no evidence, DNA or otherwise, has been presented to rest.

however leading Thai pathologist Porntip Rojanansund, has been highly critical of the way the forensic investigation was conducted, she is due to take the stand later this month.

[StealthEnergiser]

[saminoz]

I hope this puts the argument that no evidence, DNA or otherwise, has been presented to rest.

Please explain why we should believe anything you write about this subject Ale...... G.....? Don't get out of your depth Sir!

Have not you already disqualified yourself from any level of truthfulness in your previous posts and/or reviews?

Edited September 2, 2015 by saminoz