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Sanders transforms into contender, still pitches revolution

rooster59

By rooster59
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lannarebirth Star Member

lannarebirth

Posted
Posted (edited)

It’s politically unrealistic, they argue, to think that nearly a fifth of the economy could be totally remade. “As the old joke goes, ‘You can’t get there from here,’” writes economist Henry J. Aaron of the liberal-leaning Brookings Institution in Newsweek. There would be too much opposition and uncertainty.

That's basically the same argument you hear from the people that want to prop up the TBTF banks or the Generals turned lobbyists about Defense spending. If they argued that they agreed on the goal but thought the change should come more incrementally, I might have more sympathy for the position. But it's never that. It's always that the change itself is dangerous, when in fact it is only dangerous to their own interests.

There is also the economics part of the equation which does not add up. Math matters, even if you do feel the bern.

I'm pretty good at math. I see large highly profitable corporations paying their full time workers a wage that qualifies them for food stamps, Medicaid, low income housing, free school lunches, mostly free higher education and exempts them from paying income taxes. I'm already paying for all that. I'm not subsidizing those workers, I'm subsidizing those corporations. Let the corporation pay their share and if they can't stay in business paying a living wage then let them fail. The worker should earn enough that they, in turn, are paying taxes and making a contribution to their society.

Edited by lannarebirth
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lannarebirth Star Member

lannarebirth

Posted
Posted (edited)

I thought that this was interesting. The biographer of John D. Rockefeller wrote of the same result when Standard Oil was forced to break up - Rockefeller became substantially richer via owning pieces of all the companies that were formed as a result of the break up.

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/what-would-actually-happen-if-we-broke-up-the-banks-20160209

I've got no problem with people getting rich, even really, really rich. Just pay your share, and if you're really really rich your share's going to be more.

I don't even blame the rich for lobbying for loopholes, buying politicians and policy. By beef is that we have a campaign finance system that allows it.

Edited by lannarebirth
lannarebirth Star Member

lannarebirth

Posted
Posted (edited)
  • Among men, Sanders won, 66% to 32%.
  • Among women, Sanders had a 55% to 44% edge.
  • Sanders won 83% of the vote among voters aged 18-29, 66% with 30- to 44-year-olds, and 53% in the 45-64 age group. One of the only groups with which he lost was among voters aged 65 and older.
  • He won among voters at all educational levels, including 64% of voters with a high-school degree or less and 60% of college graduates.
  • Sanders captured majorities among all income levels except for those making $200,000 a year or more, which broke 53% for Clinton. He won 71% of voters making less than $30,000 a year.
  • Sanders narrowly edged out Clinton among registered Democrats, 52% to 48%. Among independents, he had a stunning, 72% to 25% victory.

http://www.businessinsider.com/bernie-sanders-new-hampshire-results-exit-polls-hillary-2016-2

  • This is the thing that galls me. The only group that is guaranteed healthcare in America votes to deny it to everyone else.

http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2011/11/07/the-rising-age-gap-in-economic-well-being/

Edited by lannarebirth
up2u2 Newbie

up2u2

Posted
Posted

Hospitals, Insurance and drug companies will do what they are told to do. I am sure there are plenty of investors that would be happy to take their place and earn a reasonable profit margin.

The right leaning Henry J Aaron from the Brookings Institute can go whistle dixie.

Who is running America? The People or the wealthy elite and Corporate America?

It is true 40 years of 'white anting' by the wealthy and Corporate greed isn't going to be addressed overnight. It will be a gradual transition and needs to be carefully managed. This is like a 300 ton pig we need to get out of the trough and it is going to be kicking and screaming with swill flying everywhere.

cumgranosalum Silver Member

cumgranosalum

Posted
Posted

Sanders has labelled himself that way, socialist, so that's the deal breaker aside from the other stuff.

Of course all candidates support some socialist style programs, even the republicans.

That's not the point.

The U.S. is still not Europe. Like it or not.

That is simply not true. Bernie labels himself as a Democratic Socialist and then sets out how that applies to his political view. The Government is there to represent the People not Wall Street not Big Health and Pharma not war mongers not god botherers not the NRA not oil and coal producers it is there to represent what is in the best interests of the American People.

In fact I have heard it said that Bernie represents the true values of early Republicans. Of course the corrupted neocons will run the big evil 'socialist' drivel. Why, because they cannot argue the social values that Bernie promotes.

Radical ideas, far fetched campaign and political revolution. oh please, spare me the rhetoric.

You overestimate the intelligence of the American people. They hear the word socialist in ANY context, and it's GAME OVER.

Trump on the other hand may become president based on the opposite, assuming the American people are the most STUPID on the planet.

...it WAS game over...until now.

lannarebirth Star Member

lannarebirth

Posted
Posted

Sanders has labelled himself that way, socialist, so that's the deal breaker aside from the other stuff.

Of course all candidates support some socialist style programs, even the republicans.

That's not the point.

The U.S. is still not Europe. Like it or not.

That is simply not true. Bernie labels himself as a Democratic Socialist and then sets out how that applies to his political view. The Government is there to represent the People not Wall Street not Big Health and Pharma not war mongers not god botherers not the NRA not oil and coal producers it is there to represent what is in the best interests of the American People.

In fact I have heard it said that Bernie represents the true values of early Republicans. Of course the corrupted neocons will run the big evil 'socialist' drivel. Why, because they cannot argue the social values that Bernie promotes.

Radical ideas, far fetched campaign and political revolution. oh please, spare me the rhetoric.

You overestimate the intelligence of the American people. They hear the word socialist in ANY context, and it's GAME OVER.

Trump on the other hand may become president based on the opposite, assuming the American people are the most STUPID on the planet.

...it WAS game over...until now.

I hope Bernie wins if only to change the conversation about what a society should value and invest in and what a governments role is in providing that given their broad taxing authority. That said, Bernie's detractors aren't completely wrong. You can't tax people until they bleed or they will change their behaviour such that they will feel less pain and the government in consequence will get less revenue to carry out their stated goals.

Chicog Star Member

Chicog

Posted
Posted

Hospitals, Insurance and drug companies will do what they are told to do. I am sure there are plenty of investors that would be happy to take their place and earn a reasonable profit margin.

The right leaning Henry J Aaron from the Brookings Institute can go whistle dixie.

Who is running America? The People or the wealthy elite and Corporate America?

It is true 40 years of 'white anting' by the wealthy and Corporate greed isn't going to be addressed overnight. It will be a gradual transition and needs to be carefully managed. This is like a 300 ton pig we need to get out of the trough and it is going to be kicking and screaming with swill flying everywhere.

I notice that most of the links in the last few posts refer to "health care costs" when what they really mean is cost+profit margin.

And this is the problem. In most developed countries, healthcare is a right and considered a public service. It is not there to make money.

In the US it's essentially a business, and like most big businesses it has taken advantage of a political climate that has allowed its greed to grow unabated.

The top ten Health Care companies in the US had combined revenues over a trillion dollars in 2014.

SpokaneAl Silver Member

SpokaneAl

Posted
Posted

Sanders has labelled himself that way, socialist, so that's the deal breaker aside from the other stuff.

Of course all candidates support some socialist style programs, even the republicans.

That's not the point.

The U.S. is still not Europe. Like it or not.

That is simply not true. Bernie labels himself as a Democratic Socialist and then sets out how that applies to his political view. The Government is there to represent the People not Wall Street not Big Health and Pharma not war mongers not god botherers not the NRA not oil and coal producers it is there to represent what is in the best interests of the American People.

In fact I have heard it said that Bernie represents the true values of early Republicans. Of course the corrupted neocons will run the big evil 'socialist' drivel. Why, because they cannot argue the social values that Bernie promotes.

Radical ideas, far fetched campaign and political revolution. oh please, spare me the rhetoric.

You overestimate the intelligence of the American people. They hear the word socialist in ANY context, and it's GAME OVER.

Trump on the other hand may become president based on the opposite, assuming the American people are the most STUPID on the planet.

...it WAS game over...until now.

Iowa and New Hampshire liberals are overwhelming made up of the white liberal persuasion, which are his primary base of support, so Sanders should have done well. With the primaries moving to states where white liberals are not necessarily the majority in the state democrat party we will see if he continues to be successful.

sgtsabai Gold Member

sgtsabai

Posted
Posted

IMHO opinion Trump, or any of the rest of the buffoon car couldn't get elected dawg catcher in a one dog town. Sanders wins the Democrat primary and it is all over but the crying for the troglodyte Republicans.

JHolmesJr Gold Member

JHolmesJr

Posted
Posted

Obama started with "Yes we can" and "the audacity of hope" 7 years ago.....now he's down to "don't do stupid shit".

Its scary how these guys change their tunes.

Let's see what Bernie does...he's more of a "I have a pipe dream" kinda guy.

sgtsabai Gold Member

sgtsabai

Posted
Posted

Bernie is renewing the "New Deal" and what he starts, whether elected or not will not be crushed like OWS. If he gets past Hillary and her Wall Street criminal/bankster money and I think he has a good chance, he will be our next president. The only candidate that has a proven track record.

SpokaneAl Silver Member

SpokaneAl

Posted
Posted

A little bit about what can happen when he is elected. Of course the Republicans will try the exact same thing as they did to Obama. Sooner or later even the ignorant faux (not the) news people might even acquire more than one working brain cell. http://money.cnn.com/2016/02/08/news/economy/sanders-income-jobs/?sr=moneyaol020816bernie0530story

Your link shows that, as always, there is a great deal of disagreement among experts.

sgtsabai Gold Member

sgtsabai

Posted
Posted

Yes there is disagreement, but among "experts"? I will concede that there is a good possibility that some Bernie favoritism was involved. Some worrying signs that Hillary, should she win, will be in trouble for the general. I really, really do not want to see Hillary as president although she is far and above any of the buffoon car of batshit crazy Republicans.

http://www.thenation.com/article/hillary-clinton-does-not-deserve-black-peoples-votes/

http://www.thenation.com/article/new-hampshire-feels-the-bern/?utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=New%20Campaign&utm_term=daily

https://ourfuture.org/20160210/new-hampshire-populist-uprising?utm_source=progressive_breakfast&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=pbreak

lannarebirth Star Member

lannarebirth

Posted
Posted (edited)

History made in New Hampshire -- Bernie Sanders the first Jew to win a presidential primary in American history. Maybe Bernie should quit while he's ahead? coffee1.gif

Question for the political junkies. Are "superdelegates" committed through the convention or can they change horses whenever they choose? I see Bernie's taking tea with Reverend Al this morning.

edit: Found my answer here:

http://thehill.com/blogs/ballot-box/presidential-races/268935-clinton-likely-to-leave-nh-with-same-number-of-delegates

Nah, that system's not rigged in favor of establishment (corrupt) candidates.

Edited by lannarebirth
NeverSure Star Member

NeverSure

Posted
Posted (edited)

History made in New Hampshire -- Bernie Sanders the first Jew to win a presidential primary in American history. Maybe Bernie should quit while he's ahead? coffee1.gif

Question for the political junkies. Are "superdelegates" committed through the convention or can they change horses whenever they choose? I see Bernie's taking tea with Reverend Al this morning.

edit: Found my answer here:

http://thehill.com/blogs/ballot-box/presidential-races/268935-clinton-likely-to-leave-nh-with-same-number-of-delegates

Nah, that system's not rigged in favor of establishment (corrupt) candidates.

Not rigged!!! Look how many delegates Hillary has pledged to her vs Sanders!! This is dated today. (graphic below, scroll down.) LINK

These are called "super delegates" and they belong to the INSIDERS. They were pledged before the caucuses and the primaries!!!!!!!!! Look at the dark blue part of Hillary's graph below to see the super delegates she already owns who own her!!!!

Hillary just barely slid in there in Iowa and got creamed in NH and she's still way ahead!!

For people who don't know, there will be a Democrat convention at the end of the primaries and the one with the most delegates gets the nomination to run in the general election.

Sanders has a heck of a mountain to climb to get past the establishment. The people are going to have to revolt in a big way to beat this!!!!

FWIW Hillary can't win the general election anyway. She too dirty and personally unappealing. She's a loser in any event.

post-164212-0-36334800-1455136527_thumb.

Edited by NeverSure
lannarebirth Star Member

lannarebirth

Posted
Posted

Yes there is disagreement, but among "experts"? I will concede that there is a good possibility that some Bernie favoritism was involved. Some worrying signs that Hillary, should she win, will be in trouble for the general. I really, really do not want to see Hillary as president although she is far and above any of the buffoon car of batshit crazy Republicans. http://www.thenation.com/article/hillary-clinton-does-not-deserve-black-peoples-votes/ http://www.thenation.com/article/new-hampshire-feels-the-bern/?utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=New%20Campaign&utm_term=daily https://ourfuture.org/20160210/new-hampshire-populist-uprising?utm_source=progressive_breakfast&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=pbreak

I don't like all the pejoratives being thrown between opposing political camps. It adds nothing. That article on the other hand is one of the truest things I've ever read here. Mainstream Democrats and the Clintons in particular have had a devastating affect on African Americans. I've often wondered with such a record of "keeping them down" Black folks don't at least flirt with the Republicans, if only to not be taken for granted. Couldn't be any worse for them.

This election offers them a real choice. It remains to be seen if fallacious pandering to a "Black" identity or the opportunity to join as equals in a society of mutual respect, fairness and responsibility will win out.

lannarebirth Star Member

lannarebirth

Posted
Posted

History made in New Hampshire -- Bernie Sanders the first Jew to win a presidential primary in American history. Maybe Bernie should quit while he's ahead? coffee1.gif

Question for the political junkies. Are "superdelegates" committed through the convention or can they change horses whenever they choose? I see Bernie's taking tea with Reverend Al this morning.

edit: Found my answer here:

http://thehill.com/blogs/ballot-box/presidential-races/268935-clinton-likely-to-leave-nh-with-same-number-of-delegates

Nah, that system's not rigged in favor of establishment (corrupt) candidates.

Not rigged!!! Look how many delegates Hillary has pledged to her vs Sanders!! This is dated today. (graphic below, scroll down.) LINK

These are called "super delegates" and they belong to the INSIDERS. They were pledged before the caucuses and the primaries!!!!!!!!! Look at the dark blue part of Hillary's graph below to see the super delegates she already owns who own her!!!!

Hillary just barely slid in there in Iowa and got creamed in NH and she's still way ahead!!

For people who don't know, there will be a Democrat convention at the end of the primaries and the one with the most delegates gets the nomination to run in the general election.

Sanders has a heck of a mountain to climb to get past the establishment. The people are going to have to revolt in a big way to beat this!!!!

FWIW Hillary can't win the general election anyway. She too dirty and personally unappealing. She's a loser in any event.

attachicon.gifdel.jpg

Many DNC superdelegates have already pledged their vote to Hillary. This is the group that purports to run fair debates. Bernie has had to fight them tooth and nail to get a reasonable number of debates scheduled at a time when viewers are likely to watch.

I don't care what party you are but this politics as usual is transparently corrupt.

Johpa Platinum Member

Johpa

Posted
Posted (edited)

There is also the basic economics part of the equation which does not add up.

The only economics that does not add up is the neo-liberal economics that small minds like Robert J. Samuelson have advocated for decades with horrific impact upon the globe. Alas I have not as yet seen Sanders mention any of the economists who advocate more compelling economic systems such as the Australian Alan Keen or the American Michael Hudson. But at least Sanders acknowledges that a revolution is necessary to replace the failed system run by the criminal, or I should say run for the benefit of a small financial criminal elite.

I find Sanders a bit shallow, but at least he is heading in the right direction in contrast to all the other candidates who I find equally or often more shallow than Sanders. There is plenty of money in the US to pay for a universal healthcare system although it may preclude the creation of billionaires.

Here is a link to an award winning documentary that can serve as an introduction to why some bonafide capitalists see a need for a revolution. Caution, it does take some time and some thought. But surprise, there is an entire world of alternative capitalist economics hidden from your view and deliberately removed from the world's university schools of economics.

For some reason it will not let me link the Youtube video, but simply search for the documentary "Four Horseman"

Edited by Johpa
Publicus Diamond Member

Publicus

Posted
Posted (edited)

Super delegates to the party nominating convention were created by each Democrats and Republicans for specific reasons. Which are to preclude the fringe candidates having an exceptional year to seize control of the nomination.

Super delegates were created after:

Republican Sen Barry Goldwater of Arizona won only five states in 1964

Democratic Party Sen. George McGovern won one state in 1972

VP Walter Mondale won one state in 1984.

Goldwater was fringe right; McGovern was fringe left. Mondale was feeble. Mondale came after Carter had been blown out in 1980 and Dole got routed in 1996.

Super delegates try to stay away from either party hacks who can't get elected potus or from fringe crackpots who might rise for the moment to ride the crest to their wipeout in the general election.

Edited by Publicus
cumgranosalum Silver Member

cumgranosalum

Posted
Posted

I don't think the US has actually had a real-life president since Carter. THe bureaucracy and spin is now far too powerful for any guy with his own ideas. Once Trump or Sanders got intothe Whitehouse they would be taken on one side and told what was going to happen.

Unfortunately if Trump did get elected and got his way, the US would be reduced to a "third world" country - to use the vernacular of those who might vote for him.

CMNightRider Gold Member

CMNightRider

Posted
Posted

After viewing the many posts supporting Bernie and Hillary, what I find far more scary than an admitted socialist and a lying FBI suspect running for President, is there are Americans who will actually vote for these people.

cumgranosalum Silver Member

cumgranosalum

Posted
Posted

After viewing the many posts supporting Bernie and Hillary, what I find far more scary than an admitted socialist and a lying FBI suspect running for President, is there are Americans who will actually vote for these people.

"an admitted socialist" - only in the States could someone get away with a comment like that without being laughed at.

Pinot Gold Member

Pinot

Posted
Posted

After viewing the many posts supporting Bernie and Hillary, what I find far more scary than an admitted socialist and a lying FBI suspect running for President, is there are Americans who will actually vote for these people.

Republicans are a fearful lot.

What I find scary is any of the unbelievably bad Republican candidates...I'm kidding, they're funnier than they are scary.

The invented problems Republican would rather solve than than the real ones:

5. Immigrants are ruining everything

4. Poor people, especially women are provided too much health insurance

3. America should do less on climate control

2. Rich people pay too much tax

1. America has too few wars

When a Democrat is overwhelming elected in November, Republicans will be gobsmacked. How could this possibly have happened? Again?

For all the reasons Romney wasn't elected in 2012. Those reasons plus vering hard right, becoming less inclusive and having unappealing, terrible candidates.

Yup, a majority of Americans will vote for these people.

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