XP_ user

[Lannig]

reason: a software in which i invested thousands of manhours over a period of 30 years which does not run under any newer win versions.

Translation: A piece of software so badly written that it doesn't use the API calls that Microsoft have been preaching for years.

Welcome to the real life. Such software abound and MS is partially responsible for it due to incomplete and changing APIs (as well as no real enforcement of good practices). How long did it take for MS to come up with a proper gaming graphics API i.e. DirectX in the old Windows days? during all that time game developers were talking to the graphics hardware directly. Not eager to rewrite their code, developers continued doing this until the first NT-based Windows came out and made it impossible.

Back to the topic: yes, XP is an unsafe O/S although there's a well-known trick to make it appear as a point of sale variant of XP that MS still (minimally) supports for security fixes.

Is it safe to still use it or not? it all depends on your requirements, your environment and what you use it for. In a safely firewalled environment, with cautious browsing and with the necessary attention, yes I feel that I am safe.

I'm an IT professional but also an Android hobbyist. Believe it or not, some drivers you need to flash firmware on no-name Chinese Android smartphones or tablets still work reliably only on XP. That's a fact of my life and therefore a good reason for me to keep XP.

[manfredtillmann]

op - what are you using your computer for? do you just 'fly' around on google earth, write emails to your niece, receive baby photos from the grand daughter?

if you don't do internet banking, access your social security account, book your flights or do anything else that requires you to provide personal or financial information, if you are just one of the millions of users who just GET information from your computer rather than PROVIDE it... just stick with what you have.

at your age of 77 any software change will be a massive challenge, probably absorbing much more of your valuable life time than you are willing to sacrifice.

[ignis]

The problem is it is NOT just getting a new OS, it is also all the other bits that will not work...... go to get new drivers = 0 or this version not supported..

Still have XP on one Laptop, and Vista on another...... My main PC change so have had most, now Win 10 since mid last year........... Driver I find the problem, and starts getting expensive... I wait and wait for months but No drivers..

Have waited 6 months for drivers form 'Logitech' for web cam, had to buy a new cam... [now have 4.. 3 will only work on older M$ versions] same with head phones, mouse, keyboard..

To me anyway was pointless having Win 10 without 64 bit, but have Win 7 as 64 bit, all the versions before were 32 bit [No idea if that is why no driver available ? but going from 7 to Win 10 also needed all new Cam/headphones/keyboard]

I am NOT talking about some cheap Cam, keyboard, mouse or headphone.... so cost many thousands of baht just to update to be able to use a newer OS.. no idea who is conning who ? .... can never remember in the old days have to buy again all these things. 95 > 98 > 2000 > XP.

[Chicog]

The problem is it is NOT just getting a new OS, it is also all the other bits that will not work...... go to get new drivers = 0 or this version not supported..

Still have XP on one Laptop, and Vista on another...... My main PC change so have had most, now Win 10 since mid last year........... Driver I find the problem, and starts getting expensive... I wait and wait for months but No drivers..

Have waited 6 months for drivers form 'Logitech' for web cam, had to buy a new cam... [now have 4.. 3 will only work on older M$ versions] same with head phones, mouse, keyboard..

To me anyway was pointless having Win 10 without 64 bit, but have Win 7 as 64 bit, all the versions before were 32 bit [No idea if that is why no driver available ? but going from 7 to Win 10 also needed all new Cam/headphones/keyboard]

I am NOT talking about some cheap Cam, keyboard, mouse or headphone.... so cost many thousands of baht just to update to be able to use a newer OS.. no idea who is conning who ? .... can never remember in the old days have to buy again all these things. 95 > 98 > 2000 > XP.

In my experience, when I've upgraded from Win 7 to 10, the drivers are either upgraded or migrated.

I have an old external HD for which no driver was found for Win 7 having used it on XP without problem.

When I upgraded to 8 it found a driver for it, and there's still one in Win10.

HJowever, if there is rubbish driver support blame the vendors. Microsoft can't be expected to support every 15+ year old piece of hardware. Not only does it become unreasonably expensive, but it loosens security.

Otherwise the vendors would simply write new drivers themselves.

You can blame Logitech for this, not Microsoft.

[Chicog]

Welcome to the real life. Such software abound and MS is partially responsible for it due to incomplete and changing APIs (as well as no real enforcement of good practices). How long did it take for MS to come up with a proper gaming graphics API i.e. DirectX in the old Windows days? during all that time game developers were talking to the graphics hardware directly. Not eager to rewrite their code, developers continued doing this until the first NT-based Windows came out and made it impossible.

Microsoft have done a fairly good job of maintaining APIs to support legacy code, and even in Win10 if you're stuck you can run XP in a VM very easily.

As for games, I don't think M$ ever took it seriously until demand forced them to, and in the end the XBox was an easier solution.

Back to the topic: yes, XP is an unsafe O/S although there's a well-known trick to make it appear as a point of sale variant of XP that MS still (minimally) supports for security fixes.

That only works if you're a paying corporate customer. They've stopped providing free updates to any XP variant.

Is it safe to still use it or not? it all depends on your requirements, your environment and what you use it for. In a safely firewalled environment, with cautious browsing and with the necessary attention, yes I feel that I am safe.

Unfortunately "cautious browsing" doesn't cut it any more, especially for the inexperienced.

As I've said above, there are plenty of hijacked "legitimate" websites out there eager to purloin your PC as part of a botnet or the like.

The only way I'd advocate running XP natively is if you don't give a toss what you lose and you're running something like Deep Freeze.

[Lannig]

Microsoft have done a fairly good job of maintaining APIs to support legacy code, and even in Win10 if you're stuck you can run XP in a VM very easily.

Thing is, these APIs just weren't there when people needed them so bad habits have developed and survived even when the APIs came (e.g. INI files vs. registry)

That only works if you're a paying corporate customer. They've stopped providing free updates to any XP variant.

Bzzt. Wrong.

Turn your XP into into one of the variants used in points of sale using a small tweak (I won't elaborate because it's not kosher license-wise so it would be modded out) and you still get critical updates (well, some) even as Joe User.

At least for another 3 years or so, just checked MS web site.

Yes indeed, you can still have your regular, untweaked XP receive the same updates if your company pays for it. We have this where I work and we need it because some companies we use robotics controlling software from ask for tens of K€ to upgrade to the version that supports W7.

That's real life, not always as simple as upgrading Joe User's desktop.

[johng]

2 things you can do to make XP a little bit "safer"

turn off services you don't need or use

http://www.blackviper.com/service-configurations/black-vipers-windows-xp-x86-32-bit-service-pack-3-service-configurations/

install a host file manager program

http://www.hosts-file.net/

I also run a hosts file on my router that updates once a week.

[Chicog]

Microsoft have done a fairly good job of maintaining APIs to support legacy code, and even in Win10 if you're stuck you can run XP in a VM very easily.

Thing is, these APIs just weren't there when people needed them so bad habits have developed and survived even when the APIs came (e.g. INI files vs. registry)

That only works if you're a paying corporate customer. They've stopped providing free updates to any XP variant.

Bzzt. Wrong.

Turn your XP into into one of the variants used in points of sale using a small tweak (I won't elaborate because it's not kosher license-wise so it would be modded out) and you still get critical updates (well, some) even as Joe User.

At least for another 3 years or so, just checked MS web site.

Yes indeed, you can still have your regular, untweaked XP receive the same updates if your company pays for it. We have this where I work and we need it because some companies we use robotics controlling software from ask for tens of K€ to upgrade to the version that supports W7.

That's real life, not always as simple as upgrading Joe User's desktop.

Tell me about it, I have 100 of the bloody things that I can't get shot of (ICS) but they are ringfenced like Alcatraz.

Bloody hell they must be terrified of the competition.

• "Windows Embedded Standard 2009. This product is an updated release of the toolkit and componentized version of Windows XP. It was originally released in 2008; and Extended Support will end on Jan. 8, 2019."
• "Windows Embedded POSReady 2009. This product for point-of-sale devices reflects the updates available in Windows Embedded Standard 2009. It was originally released in 2009, and extended support will end on April 9, 2019."

[Richard-BKK]

If the software is so special and needs MS-Dos why not use a up-to-date MS-Windows version and use Dosbox (https://www.dosbox.com/), with this you can have a secure operating system, and use any DOS calls... Dosbox is compatible that you can even install MS-Windows 95 so compatibility is not an issue...

[Lannig]

Legacy software (and drivers) that don't run on W7 and beyond doesn't mean it's DOS-based.

It's Windows software, so DOSBox isn't an option.

Running it into a VM doesn't change the fundamentals of the problem either. It's still an XP machine on the LAN.

Forking out 10s of K€ to upgrade it is not possible in the foreseeable future, neither is switching to something different. They don't really have competitors for this specific brand/model of robotics and changing the whole stuff including the robotics would shoot us into the 5-6 digits price ballpark.

Anyway, I'm really drifting from the OP's concerns here. Sorry.

Edited May 29, 2016 by Lannig

[Richard-BKK]

Legacy software (and drivers) that don't run on W7 and beyond doesn't mean it's DOS-based.

It's Windows software, so DOSBox isn't an option.

Running it into a VM doesn't change the fundamentals of the problem either. It's still an XP machine on the LAN.

Forking out 10s of K€ to upgrade it is not possible in the foreseeable future, neither is switching to something different. They don't really have competitors for this specific brand/model of robotics and changing the whole stuff including the robotics would shoot us into the 5-6 digits price ballpark.

Anyway, I'm really drifting from the OP's concerns here. Sorry.

Most MS-Windows XP specific software will run with MS-Windows 95... and MS-Windows 95 runs without problems with the help of Dosbox... Apparently some people even installed MS-Windows 98 SE (Second Edition) with the help of Dosbox... (but that I never tried)....

Edited May 29, 2016 by Richard-BKK

[Naam]

If the software is so special and needs MS-Dos why not use a up-to-date MS-Windows version and use Dosbox (https://www.dosbox.com/), with this you can have a secure operating system, and use any DOS calls... Dosbox is compatible that you can even install MS-Windows 95 so compatibility is not an issue...

tried DOSbox. doesn't work. the problem is that i need for my data in addition to conventional also expanded (not extended) memory.

[Lannig]

Most MS-Windows XP specific software will run with MS-Windows 95...

Sorry but that's utter nonsense. The opposite is only partially true, but in this direction it's definitely wrong.

Windows 95 has large parts still running in 16-bit code, uses DOS as a bootloader and still uses quite a few of its system calls.

Windows XP is full 32-bit, based on NT and has a much more extensive Win32 API used by applications.

Windows 95 uses ISO and other single-byte character sets, applications developed for Windows XP use Unicode (mutlibyte).

The driver model is 100% different, WDF/WDM in XP vs. VxD in Windows 95, although WDM made a partial debut in Windows 98.

I could go on for a while... There's just no backwards compatibility.

OK, enough drifting from the subject as far as I'm concerned. I'm off.

Edited May 29, 2016 by Lannig

[chrisinth]

Running an unsupported OS on the Windows platform, is, IMO, an endless argument. On the one hand we have the camp that believe their third party anti-virus/malware solution will protect their system and there is no requirement for updates.

Unless you're running something that isn't signature based, like Bromium, you can consider your antivirus to be next to useless in this day and age.

Yep, can't argue with that.

[Rob13]

op - what are you using your computer for? do you just 'fly' around on google earth, write emails to your niece, receive baby photos from the grand daughter?

if you don't do internet banking, access your social security account, book your flights or do anything else that requires you to provide personal or financial information, if you are just one of the millions of users who just GET information from your computer rather than PROVIDE it... just stick with what you have.

at your age of 77 any software change will be a massive challenge, probably absorbing much more of your valuable life time than you are willing to sacrifice.

Agreed, if no personal/banking info is being sent and you're satisfied with the XP keep it. Maybe find a IT guy to help with the Google Earth problem.

[SoiBiker]

op - what are you using your computer for? do you just 'fly' around on google earth, write emails to your niece, receive baby photos from the grand daughter?

if you don't do internet banking, access your social security account, book your flights or do anything else that requires you to provide personal or financial information, if you are just one of the millions of users who just GET information from your computer rather than PROVIDE it... just stick with what you have.

at your age of 77 any software change will be a massive challenge, probably absorbing much more of your valuable life time than you are willing to sacrifice.

Agreed, if no personal/banking info is being sent and you're satisfied with the XP keep it. Maybe find a IT guy to help with the Google Earth problem.

I guess the actions of the botnet you'll likely end up part of are just someone else's problem?

[Rob13]

yeah, i guess so.

[ignis]

There again in the News this past week the US Military and Nuclear Missile systems are still using old 8" Floppy disks, feel sure there far older than XP ?

[Chicog]

There again in the News this past week the US Military and Nuclear Missile systems are still using old 8" Floppy disks, feel sure there far older than XP ?

As is the Series/1 they use them on.

Although bless it, the S/1 was (and I assume still is!) a very reliable workhorse.