Koh Tao murders appeal reveals shocking new evidence suggesting unfair trial and wrongful conviction

JLCrab · June 4, 2016

Yes -- if you're referring to me, I find that much of what gets written on here to be very entertaining because, in the end, as the big Mod repeatedly has said, it don't make no difference.

If as in Post #1 of this topic, the 'shocking news' is that there was no evidence of rape of the female victim by those convicted, that means that no one else raped her either which sorta upsets the apple cart of the real-killer revenge scenario that this was the action of someone whose sexual advances were spurned with the resultant humiliation that such person could not endure without retribution.

Edited June 4, 2016 by JLCrab

Aj Mick · June 5, 2016

I have I think a reasonable grasp of the facts of the case and what I think should happen is simple: I think the Appeals Court should overturn the guilty verdict as not having been proved beyond reasonable doubt without any statement or prejudice as to whether those previously convicted are guilty or innocent of the crimes for which they were convicted 24 December 2015.

the first time I agree with you.

Of course they should be compensated for being in prison and suffering.

Blue sky thinking. Absolutely zero chance the Region 8 Appeals court would overturn their own verdict. And even less than zero chance that the B2 would be compensated. But all hope is not lost. The face-saver (all round and years later) could come from the BKK Supreme court, when the case is referred to them. Probably only a LONG sentence for stealing property or illegally entering Thailand - the main crimes overturned owing to a legal technicality, like the DNA piece of paper evidence was not signed off by the chief RTP general.

The success or otherwise of the appeal is, unfortunately, irrelevant.

The appeal will not be heard for another year or so, with the decision coming late in 2017. The outcome will likely be further appealed by either the prosecution or the defendants, resulting more years incarceration for the B2 to while the case wends it way through the system…...

And so the battle of attrition goes on, all the while keeping the heat off certain others, which has long since been the main game.

When / if the B2 are eventually cleared of the murder and rape charges, one entered Thailand illegally, and the other will have overstayed by years. They will be handed over to Immigration and deported….. Compensation, or even an apology? Forget it; they will have served their purpose, and that's that.

jgarbo · June 5, 2016

I remember in the first reports that one of the Koh Tao boss's son was seen on CCTV at the scene, then he magically appeared in Bangkok. This case reeks of mafia and government corruption on multiple levels.

Ex-kamnanIs son fled. Not interviewed, but strong suspect protected by Chumphon mafia. Son won't be jailed. Burmese jailed for a few years, then B-day pardon, then quiet compensation. IMO after 30 yrs reporting here. The Brits apparently made a mistake, someone lost face. Then explosion, murder.

JLCrab · June 5, 2016

Well, I'll go back to some blue sky thinking since I have already demonstrated a lack of understanding of Thai behavior, it may be the the main-show agenda guy could be convinced to allow an overturn of the guilty verdict based upon reasonable doubt with the understanding that no statement is made as to the guilt or innocence of those to be released from custody and with the further understanding that, to the RTP, the right characters were tried and convicted such that they will make no effort to go after anyone else conventionally referred to on here as "the real killers".

... and thus the only PR that will accrue to Koh Tao is what an idyllic vacation spot it is for families and the younger adventurous set.

Edited June 5, 2016 by JLCrab

joebrown · June 5, 2016

It's just a diplomatic way of AH saying the conviction was pure B/S, as there was no evidence to support the verdict. What hasn't been mentioned is that the top Region 8 official demanded to review the court's judgement prior to it being made public. I have little doubt he had the clout to demand changes if it damaged Thailand's reputation (whatever that is), and also to hold the judges 'careers' accountable for their actions if the B2 were aquitted. I also consider that review to be a bona fide contempt of court, and should never have been permitted by a higher authority..

Not that it would make an iota of difference, seems like justice can be perverted at will, if you're a big enough fish. And, IMO, having the same Region 8 crew handling the Appeal, there is little doubt that the conviction will stand, albeit the sentence could be reduced.

So I'm guessing that you do not take the Samui Court's verdict seriously. OK. You also said a page or 2 back that if you had tangible evidence to convict the real killers and free the unjustly convicted twosome you wouldn't come forward with it because of the risk that your family might take. OK again.

I don't know \which disgusts me more: The actions of those who are running this show or the oft expressed notion that persons who had tangible credible evidence as to who actually committed these crimes would sit on it rather than somehow try to arrange to put it forward without undue exposure to themselves and their families -- and the notion of Koh Tao death squads lurking around every corner to hush anyone is ridiculous.

That is all hypothetical of course because those writing on here don't have any such information and the reason that no one has come forward with it is maybe that no one else has it either.

"and the notion of Koh Tao death squads lurking around every corner is ridiculous" To a certain degree I think you are being melodramatic when you say this. It doesn't take a death squad(s) to make people fear for their lives/livelihoods. Don't forget that the General PM said shortly after the murders that action would be taken to remove 'influential persons' from the island(s). We all know that Koh Tao is controlled by a few influential families, and that one of them controls what happens at Sairee beach.

If you had sunk all your life savings into a beach bar/club/diving school anywhere near Sairee beach and you had hard evidence as to who, how, when and where the murders took place, would you willingly put the lives of yourself, family and all you owned at great risk or even mortal danger just to satisfy your altruist

I guess that would depend upon just how I came upon that hard evidence because, if the influential family knew I had that hard evidence, I might wind up dead even if I didn't come forward because why would they take the risk that one day I might have some epiphany, change my mind and decide to spill my guts.

But again, it is maybe just as likely that, rather than sitting on hard evidence due to not wanting to put at risk one's investment in a vegan raw juice bar at Sairee Beach, no one actually has any such hard evidence.

I think the only hard evidence might be that someone saw one of Maymen's original suspects on Koh Tao when inconclusive evidence has been put forward in an attempt to suggest otherwise. One thing that does disturb me about all of the 'suspicious' deaths on Koh Tao is that there are never any witnesses. For me, this rings alarm bells and suggests all is not quite as sabaii sabai as the PM, TAT, RTP et al say it is on that island!

JLCrab · June 5, 2016

Sure but someone seeing someone who was there who by official accounts or other reports wasn't there hasn't happened after nearly two years.

StealthEnergiser · June 5, 2016

Sure but someone seeing someone who was there who by official accounts or other reports wasn't there hasn't happened after nearly two years.

Some of the suspicious deaths on the island after the murders could be the reason no witnesses have come forward.

JLCrab · June 5, 2016

Sure but someone seeing someone who was there who by official accounts or other reports wasn't there hasn't happened after nearly two years.

Some of the suspicious deaths on the island after the murders could be the reason no witnesses have come forward.

Right -- but if there are no persons who witnessed anything with which to come forward you would have the same net result.

Edited June 5, 2016 by JLCrab

stephenterry · June 5, 2016

Re post JoeBrown post 215

One thing that does disturb me about all of the 'suspicious' deaths on Koh Tao is that there are never any witnesses. For me, this rings alarm bells and suggests all is not quite as sabaii sabai as the PM, TAT, RTP et al say it is on that island!

That's a good, and overlooked point. The island grapevine clampdown in action. It really gets my goat that the mainland authorities ignore these deaths, and there is zero attempt to hold an independent investigation.

However, in the event of most farang deaths in Thailand, there is little released information apart from the obvious RTP's 'suicide' - or the body is being sent for a postmortem, and nothing else is reported.

A shut down all round, heh? And a plausible reason why no-one puts their head above the parapet, either at the time or later. It won't change matters, because the outcome has already been decided and no-one must be permitted to lose face.

stephenterry · June 5, 2016

Another overlooked point is that NO-ONE saw either of the B2 commit any crimes, have an altercation with the victims, or were seen at the crime scene when the attack took place.

The nearest facts are that they were both on the same beach earlier as were many others (most probably before the victims emerged from the AC bar) and later at after 4am when ONE of the B2 admitted finding a phone on that same beach that may or may not have belonged to the male victim.

It is a leap in the dark to convict either of them for being in the vicinity based on unverifiable DNA evidence, including a lack of their DNA on the murder weapon and no fingerprints on the phone ( which may or may not have been the one found) presented in court.

And another overlooked point is that had the B2 committed the crimes, the locals would have dragged them into the RTP HQ as soon as they started the investigation. It would be in their financial interst to do so, considering they were only migrant workers and not fine, upstanding Thai thugs.

JLCrab · June 5, 2016

BTW Thanks -- being a Yank I never realized 'grass' could be a verb.

Tchooptip · June 5, 2016

filthy country.....

I love unbiased comments it adds height to the debates

Shiver · June 5, 2016

As a casual reader I have been (I suspect the same as most people), doubtful in the extreme about the accusations. Reading this article mentioned quite a lot of things I hadn't heard before, things that I wouldn't even accept in the worst 'B' movie Hollywood fiction.

I decided to ask gf what her take on it was. She had no idea of the story at all (and little interest to hear 'yet another slur on her country'). Has there been a media blackout here while the rest of the world is all over it? I don't watch Thai TV but was curious as to their take. When a man gets his unit bitten in a toilet by a cobra it's all over the news and lots of people telling me about it and having a giggle, and are often surprised that foreigners have any awareness of what is doing the rounds in MSM (thanks in no small part to Thai Visa forum collecting it in one convenient place).

Whatever the truth, this additional information which is new to me, even if it not to our more informed readers, leaves a very cold dark feeling about this country about what can happen to (I feel) innocent parties. I would like Captain 44 to step up and single handedly restore happiness and credibility to the nation with a mere gesture of his sweeping hand, like 'leaders' of certain other Asian countries claim to be able to do (as if Justice can even be possible once a loved one is gone - there's no way of compensating for that), but it would show some leadership and let the monied and influential know that it can reach only so far.

I want to tell all my friends back home what a wonderful part of the world this is, in the land of the free. I cannot know what it is the victims and their families are living with, or the victims being accused. I guess this is where I should say something profound and comforting, but I still haven't managed to pick my jaw off the ground.

Edited June 5, 2016 by Shiver

stephenterry · June 5, 2016

Censorship in the Thai media is applied to prevent the masses from rising up. Feed them with Soap dramas and infantile bells and whistles shows, and forget the world outside Thailand. Make sure Thai newspapers do nothing to spoil Thailand's image as a safe haven for tourists.

Unfortunately (for the authorities) , the new generation has access to world-wide social media, and it's my guess that the hi-so class won't be able to put a lid on violent deaths like this, and also the Hua Hin attack.

Edited June 5, 2016 by stephenterry

JLCrab · June 5, 2016

<snip> Make sure Thai newspapers do nothing to spoil Thailand's image as a safe haven for tourists.

Snip2>

So do potential tourists from UK and elsewhere now read the Thai newspapers to get their image of Thailand as safe for tourists? According to the Daily Mail April 19, 2016:

"Koh Tao has become a huge draw for young backpackers thanks to its stunning beaches and cheap accommodation - so much so that as many as 750,000 Britons visit each year."

Apparently nobody as below is listening to the "Death Island" doom-&-gloom that they might get reading ThaiVisa's persistent fear mongering from those who understand Thai behavior as they have no problem in telling you.

Koh Tao photo from June 1, 2016 after everyone has had a chance to view the TV4 documentary "Murder in Paradise"

Edited June 5, 2016 by JLCrab

stephenterry · June 5, 2016

That's all right, then.

Bung · June 5, 2016

Appeal is being heard by the same court that convicted them? What a(nother) joke in a long line of jokes.

They haven't got a chance. If they are lucky their death sentences will be commuted to life imprisonment. With much fanfare from the rtp about how kind Thai people are no doubt.

greenchair · June 5, 2016

An interesting point in the article:

'The incision discovered inside the victims vagina was determined by the British autopsy to have been caused during the Thai autopsy, not as a result of sexual attack.'

From the UNOFFICIAL TRANSLATION BY MWRN's JUSTICE: KOH TAO MURDER CASE:

Police Colonel Dr Pawut, M.D, testified that there was a tear to the Second Deceaseds vulva, which is consistent with the report of the second victims autopsy in the United Kingdom in Document Lor. 31 (page 21), submitted by the defendants, indicating that there was a tear at the vulva.

So the defence are claiming the Police Colonel was lying?

From the UNOFFICIAL TRANSLATION BY MWRN's JUSTICE: KOH TAO MURDER CASE regarding the UK autopsy report:

Unless a relevant expert can testify before the court to confirm the information in such reports, the plaintiff cannot cross-examine the witness in order to properly examine the fact. The testimony alone is without any weight and not worthy of being taken in to account.

So the judges ignored the UK autopsy report yet accepted police statements as gospel......

The defence recieved hundreds of thousands in donations, with the promises of expert witnesses having to be paid and flights paid to come here and testify.

The judge had every right to demand an expert witness.

Mooner · June 5, 2016

As a prominent Thai business owner being accused of by "conspiracy theorists" of being involved you would of thought he would be eager to release CCTV footage.

Have some of the victims going in the bar but none coming out. There is CCTV of the accused on a bike and at a convience store but from the bar where near the crime happened.

Selective CCTV....amazing Thailand!

TheLobster · June 5, 2016

Yes -- if you're referring to me, I find that much of what gets written on here to be very entertaining

I'm not surprised but a little disappointed. To the majority of people there has been a miscarriage of justice and I personally do not find that entertaining. Adverse publicity will hopefully encourage the relevant people to take some action.

An interesting point in the article:

'The incision discovered inside the victims vagina was determined by the British autopsy to have been caused during the Thai autopsy, not as a result of sexual attack.'

From the UNOFFICIAL TRANSLATION BY MWRN's JUSTICE: KOH TAO MURDER CASE:

Police Colonel Dr Pawut, M.D, testified that there was a tear to the Second Deceaseds vulva, which is consistent with the report of the second victims autopsy in the United Kingdom in Document Lor. 31 (page 21), submitted by the defendants, indicating that there was a tear at the vulva.

So the defence are claiming the Police Colonel was lying?

From the UNOFFICIAL TRANSLATION BY MWRN's JUSTICE: KOH TAO MURDER CASE regarding the UK autopsy report:

Unless a relevant expert can testify before the court to confirm the information in such reports, the plaintiff cannot cross-examine the witness in order to properly examine the fact. The testimony alone is without any weight and not worthy of being taken in to account.

So the judges ignored the UK autopsy report yet accepted police statements as gospel......

The defence recieved hundreds of thousands in donations, with the promises of expert witnesses having to be paid and flights paid to come here and testify.

The judge had every right to demand an expert witness.

So the UK pathologist should have flown over for the trial instead of continuing to do their job?

As a prominent Thai business owner being accused of by "conspiracy theorists" of being involved you would of thought he would be eager to release CCTV footage.

Have some of the victims going in the bar but none coming out. There is CCTV of the accused on a bike and at a convience store but from the bar where near the crime happened.

Selective CCTV....amazing Thailand!

The CCTV you talk about was privately owned it would seem. It required intervention from the government to produce it at the time, in all likelihood it doesn't exist anymore unless someone has kept a copy 'just in case'

Edited June 5, 2016 by TheLobster

JLCrab · June 5, 2016

Yes -- if you're referring to me, I find that much of what gets written on here to be very entertaining

I'm not surprised but a little disappointed. To the majority of people there has been a miscarriage of justice and I personally do not find that entertaining. Adverse publicity will hopefully encourage the relevant people to take some action.

<snip>

I didn't say I found the murders and their aftermath entertaining -- I said that I found you and some of the other posters entertaining and that you don\'t see the difference is part of what makes it so entertaining. The Mod on here keeps saying that nothing that gets written on here will make any difference but some continue to write on here as if it does.

Edited June 5, 2016 by JLCrab

JLCrab · June 5, 2016

Appeal is being heard by the same court that convicted them? What a(nother) joke in a long line of jokes.

They haven't got a chance. If they are lucky their death sentences will be commuted to life imprisonment. With much fanfare from the rtp about how kind Thai people are no doubt.

What's the difference if it is the same judges or other judges on the Samui bench hear the appeal? They're all in the same tank together if you read what's on here and "I'll save your face if you save my face."

Whatever process by which the Appeal judges are chosen it is established by Criminal Procedure put in place long before this case came up for a hearing.

BTW to an above post I can see why someone might not release private CCTV in this or any case: If you release 10 hours of video, then some will same that the damaging evidence is in the 11th hour of video and if you release 20 hours of video then some will say that the damaging evidence is in the 21st hour of video, etc.

Edited June 5, 2016 by JLCrab

TheLobster · June 5, 2016

It seems that some people are here for entertainment and .... to antagonize/provoke posters.

I'd like to see truth and justice prevail ....... let's see some evidence of their guilt of murder if it was the B2, otherwise posters will continue to question the verdict.

JLCrab · June 5, 2016

It seems that some people are here for entertainment and .... to antagonize/provoke posters.

I'd like to see truth and justice prevail ....... let's see some evidence of their guilt of murder if it was the B2, otherwise posters will continue to question the verdict.

I have said on here that I think the case against the B2 should be thrown out as woefully short of proof beyond a reasonable doubt. As to truth and justice, I will leave that to others since when I read about what others think is actually the TRUTH of what happened, it goes into the realm of rampant speculation much of which becomes self-contradictory and without any tangible substance.

And when I read of 'Death Island' I have no problem characterizing such ramblings as entertainment on a website which, for all its informational value, is really just a website for entertainment and discussion " ... regarding everything and anything related to Thailand."

xylophone · June 6, 2016

It seems that some people are here for entertainment and .... to antagonize/provoke posters.

I'd like to see truth and justice prevail ....... let's see some evidence of their guilt of murder if it was the B2, otherwise posters will continue to question the verdict.

I think it is pointless trying to convince the "guilty" believers otherwise, because despite all of the facts showing that this was a complete and utter farce and a total miscarriage of justice, these facts are just ignored.

There are other factors at play here and it's my belief that hidden agendas/ulterior motives are the reasons why this guilty verdict is supported by just a few, when every man and his dog, including "blind freddie", can see that it is a set up.

That being the case no amount of discussion will do any good, so best not to enter into any or "take the bait", but simply to restate the facts that have already been laid out, and do this time and time again when any new person comes onto the thread, so these facts are never forgotten. Then it will be plain for all incorruptible people to see the innocence of the two Burmese and how corruption can influence all aspects of Thai society.

There is nothing, absolutely nothing, no evidence, nothing which points to the two Burmese being guilty. End of story, so keep restating the points below……..

1). The handling and lack of chain of custody of the DNA samples was widely criticized, the missing wine bottle and cigarette butts as well as the female victims clothes, all said to have carried vital DNA evidence, were missing entirely from the trial.

2). The lack of CCTV footage of the crimes linking the two men to anywhere other than the crowded beach has caused grave concern and of course without a single piece of CCTV footage, or a single witness to the actual crime, it is hard to believe that any court could find the two men guilty without reasonable doubt and sentence them to death.

3). Their DNA was never found on the murder weapon. The actual DNA on the murder weapon matched neither of the accused.

4). Fingerprints from the accused on the mobile phone that belonged to one of the victims were never produced. This raises the question of who they actually belonged to. There was absolutely no forensic evidence presented by the prosecution connecting the mobile phone to the accused.

5). The prosecution speculated that the motive for the attack was the accused being aroused by both victims having sexual intercourse on the beach. There is no evidence to suggest this ever took place.

6). The Thai autopsy was no more than a four page summary by the doctor. The legally required autopsy file documenting the procedure with step-by-step photos and point to point analysis was never presented.

7). The DNA tests presented by the prosecution were not provided with the necessary supportive documents showing multiple procedures required to meet ISO 17025 standards required in DNA testing, including the chain of custody, method of testing, graph generation and analysis report.

8). The police claimed a 100% DNA match with the accused from samples taken from the victim’s body this is scientifically impossible in any forensic lab anywhere in the world.

9). During the interrogation a hostile interpreter was appointed by the police who cannot read written Thai. The defendants were never properly advised of the murder charges nor their rights under Thai law.

10). The suspects were arrested on unrelated charges before being questioned about the murders without an attorney present and their statements were entered as part of the prosecution’s evidence. This is a violation of Thai law and grounds for dismissal of the case.

JLCrab · June 6, 2016

It seems that some people are here for entertainment and .... to antagonize/provoke posters.

I'd like to see truth and justice prevail ....... let's see some evidence of their guilt of murder if it was the B2, otherwise posters will continue to question the verdict.

I think it is pointless trying to convince the "guilty" believers otherwise, because despite all of the facts showing that this was a complete and utter farce and a total miscarriage of justice, these facts are just ignored.

<snip?

5). The prosecution speculated that the motive for the attack was the accused being aroused by both victims having sexual intercourse on the beach. There is no evidence to suggest this ever took place.

<snip2>

5b). Persons on ThaiVisa have speculated repeatedly and referenced rumors and hearsay that the motive for the attack was revenge for someone's sexual advances toward the female victim being spurned. There is no evidence to suggest this ever took place.

BTW if I have any agenda in all this it is simple: I enjoy taking a position in social media -- and do so in places ex-ThaiVisa -- where the overwhelming opinion is in concert as to the way things are but they react with scorn and personal attacks to anyone who might point out inconsistencies in those positions even if not disagreeing with them in whole or in the desired outcome.

So on here, if someone might agree that the B2 did not commit the crimes for which they have been convicted, then there is it seems a consensus as to only one other possible explanation as to who did even though there is no corroborable evidence to that explanation or even that that is necessarily the SOLE possible explanation .

Edited June 6, 2016 by JLCrab

xylophone · June 6, 2016

It seems that some people are here for entertainment and .... to antagonize/provoke posters.

I'd like to see truth and justice prevail ....... let's see some evidence of their guilt of murder if it was the B2, otherwise posters will continue to question the verdict.

I think it is pointless trying to convince the "guilty" believers otherwise, because despite all of the facts showing that this was a complete and utter farce and a total miscarriage of justice, these facts are just ignored.

<snip?

5). The prosecution speculated that the motive for the attack was the accused being aroused by both victims having sexual intercourse on the beach. There is no evidence to suggest this ever took place.

<snip2>

5b). Persons on ThaiVisa have speculated repeatedly and referenced rumors and hearsay that the motive for the attack was revenge for someone's sexual advances toward the female victim being spurned. There is no evidence to suggest this ever took place.

No problem........as stated:-