Pattaya going downhill!

[Jiu-Jitsu]

26 minutes ago, pepi2005 said:

Woods clearing for some new project on Pratumnak Hill that just started yesterday.

I remember pondering over retiring in Pattaya one day. IF I would still do it (will depend on average costs of living in Thailand and the 'fun factor' the city will still have by then : to outline it to JSixPack in order to prevent or allow him for more ridiculing and patronizing, to me quite frankly, that means enough affordable p4p opportunities; if my main interest would be great beaches, cheap tropical fruit, intellectual stimulation, availability of shopping malls or fancy restaurants, I would rather move elsewhere), I wonder whether there would still be any cooling and refreshing GREEN remaining on the hill - where I live - by then. Realistically I'm afraid, the times of relaxed jogging in halfway fresh air up there will be gone for 'good'.

 

By the way, I happened to witness a gangster pursuit between 2nd road and Beach Road in broad daylight just yesterday. Guy driving at full speed on a heavy bike against traffic on 2nd road, about 20 minutes later I just passed where they had stopped him on the Dolphin roundabout in Naklua. Looking at his face, no one you would like to run in an empy soi at night. 

 

@Awohalitsiktoli what's the URL?

 

 

That is currently the best that Pattaya has left to offer. 

[pepi2005]

23 minutes ago, pattayadude said:

if he arrived the Dolphin roundabout by taking the 2nd road, he couldn't have been riding "against" the traffic

first time I spotted him was driving at high speed against traffic on 2nd road. Believe it or not, such things happen here. What went on during the 20 minutes until I passed him getting locked up at the roundabout, I don't know.

[Naam]

On 9/13/2016 at 6:39 PM, newnative said:

Apparently we are all living lives of quiet desperation--especially if we set foot in an air-conditioned mall.

to avoid desperation and suicidal thoughts i limit my visits to air-conditioned malls to max once every two years. the last time i sat at a bar was 11 years ago. my wife was quite disappointed quote:

"all the nice and polite old war horses we knew are gone. and the replacements' English is limited to a few sentences."

Edited September 14, 2016 by Naam

[SheungWan]

7 hours ago, Awohalitsiktoli said:

It is bad and growing worse.  Now they are congregating along Jomtien Beach.  Be careful.  The news is already filled with evidence of violence among youth gangs in the area.  I am checking out of this thread now.  Be sure and vote on whether or not the quality of life in Pattaya-Jomtien has increased or decreased over the past ten years (another thread I constructed this morning).

 

I would steer away from lumping Pattaya and Jomtien together.

[Jiu-Jitsu]

4 hours ago, Naam said:

to avoid desperation and suicidal thoughts i limit my visits to air-conditioned malls to max once every two years. the last time i sat at a bar was 11 years ago. my wife was quite disappointed quote:

"all the nice and polite old war horses we knew are gone. and the replacements' English is limited to a few sentences."

 

Do you actually live in Pattaya? 

 

I have no interest in the bars. My bugbear is the destruction of areas of natural beauty in order to offer a "greater choice of condos", amongst other frivolities, for Americans choosing to live in Thailand.

I don't visit a seaside resort to sit in a mall. So no, I don't get excited about the opening of yet another mall.

Of course you who live outside the city may still have areas of natural beauty, so couldn't care less about what they do in Pattaya proper.

[NanLaew]

10 hours ago, SheungWan said:

 

I would steer away from lumping Pattaya and Jomtien together.

Why?

[newnative]

Hmm.  Now it's only Americans buying condos in Thailand.  I'll have to mention that to my London friend who owns 3 in Pattaya.  Previously it was the sweeping statement that Thais don't buy condos or live in them. 

[Rimmer]

A post getting argumentative and personal has been removed

[Jiu-Jitsu]

11 hours ago, newnative said:

Hmm.  Now it's only Americans buying condos in Thailand.  I'll have to mention that to my London friend who owns 3 in Pattaya.  Previously it was the sweeping statement that Thais don't buy condos or live in them. 

 

 

Your London 'friend' isn't posting here. I'm referring to you and your comments. Take ownership and responsibility for them. If he posted with similar comments to you, I would be replying to him.

 

There are very many unsold units. The Thais are not taking up the slack. If these statements are too difficult for you to comprehend, I cannot state that I am surprised.

 

As you might be able to imagine, I am likely to have a far better gauge of what people in London would think than you.

 

Apart from anything else, if he has bought three, then it's clearly not to live in them.

 

The pathetic returns available simply are not worth the risk unless you are actually living in them.

Quoted rental returns are just pie in the sky. No wonder short term rentals abound.

 

My smallest London property clears 50000 baht per month.  The equity has more than doubled since purchase. Real money. There people struggle just to get their money back and the rental returns half at best of what was quoted to them on purchase. Absolutely no interest in investing time and money in a tiny box high in the sky. Every new build with less personal space. It's a mug's game.

 

Choosing to live there because accommodation is relatively cheap is one thing. I don't think quality of life there is increasing because you can buy more imported products and there are more condos from which to choose.  Ridiculous.

 

 

[newnative]

I own all my comments and I am certainly not hiding behind someone else.  You baldly stated that condos are being built in Thailand only for Americans.  You didn't mention any other country.  Just America.  Totally wacko statement.  I was simply pointing out that I know someone from London who owns 3 condos in Pattaya so not just Americans are buying condos. I used the London friend as my example to show that even people from your home city buy condos here.  I could have  mentioned that I know a Swiss lady who also owns 3 condos in Pattaya.  And a German who owns 2.  And a New Zealander who owns 2.  And another Brit who owns 2.  And an Irishman who owns 3 condos and a house in company name.  And so on. What they are doing with their condos really has nothing to do with your statement that condos are only being built for Americans to buy.

[anotheruser]

Christ, for the people that think Pattaya has gone down hill, are you any better? 

[Jiu-Jitsu]

3 hours ago, newnative said:

I own all my comments and I am certainly not hiding behind someone else.  You baldly stated that condos are being built in Thailand only for Americans.  You didn't mention any other country.  Just America.  Totally wacko statement.  I was simply pointing out that I know someone from London who owns 3 condos in Pattaya so not just Americans are buying condos. I used the London friend as my example to show that even people from your home city buy condos here.  I could have  mentioned that I know a Swiss lady who also owns 3 condos in Pattaya.  And a German who owns 2.  And a New Zealander who owns 2.  And another Brit who owns 2.  And an Irishman who owns 3 condos and a house in company name.  And so on. What they are doing with their condos really has nothing to do with your statement that condos are only being built for Americans to buy.

 

Wow...you are really showing off your abilities to comprehend. Just about everyone else is clear that my comments were aimed at you. 

As to people who buy for investment, they buy them because they are relatively cheap, as compared to property in their country.  Not to live in, but for investment. Do you understand the difference?

I could sell a one bedroom apartment in London and buy ten to fifteen crappy apartments in Pattaya. Will I? No.

Buying cheap apartments in Pattaya, doesn't speak to an increasing quality of life. In fact there were many complaints about the kind of people who were buying those shoe boxes.

[newnative]

I'm getting a little fatter on the great Thai and other food available in Pattaya but last time I checked I am still just one person. You did say "Americans".  As always, you make a ridiculous comment, you get called on it, and out comes first an insult and then a little essay of misdirection on something having nothing to do with your original comment. Today's essay is  people buying condos for investment, which has no relation to your statement that Pattaya is losing its green spaces in order to provide condo choices for Americans. Now that I read it again, its a dumb statement whether "Americans" is singular or plural.  But, whatever. It's a beautiful morning, nice cool breeze on the balcony with my first cup of coffee, the Chinese are out on the bay doing their parasailing, the speedboats are weaving in and out in an elaborate dance, and the islands are beautiful in the distance.  Life is good.

[pattayadude]

32 minutes ago, newnative said:

I'm getting a little fatter on the great Thai and other food available in Pattaya but last time I checked I am still just one person. You did say "Americans".  As always, you make a ridiculous comment, you get called on it, and out comes first an insult and then a little essay of misdirection on something having nothing to do with your original comment. Today's essay is  people buying condos for investment, which has no relation to your statement that Pattaya is losing its green spaces in order to provide condo choices for Americans. Now that I read it again, its a dumb statement whether "Americans" is singular or plural.  But, whatever. It's a beautiful morning, nice cool breeze on the balcony with my first cup of coffee, the Chinese are out on the bay doing their parasailing, the speedboats are weaving in and out in an elaborate dance, and the islands are beautiful in the distance.  Life is good.

good attitude!...half full is better than half empty

Edited September 16, 2016 by pattayadude

[pepi2005]

In a followup post I had mentioned that Chinese buyers are picking up some of the slack, so the situation regarding to "condos"/condo projects may actually not be that bad.

 

This may true to some extent, but after having spent a few weeks here again and having talked to people who actually know about the market because they are either renting themselves or property agents (who NOT try to sell me something :-)): each of them has said that there is a clear over-supply of apartments in Pattaya now and that prices (for both, rentals and re-sales) have been going DOWNHILL (to use the buzzword ) since a while now. Of course there are stubborn owners who decline to adapt their rates or certain top locations that are still easy to sell/rent, but in general, the impression seems to be that 50-60% of the units "up for rent" in Pattaya won't even get rented during this year's "high season"! Units (also rooms in non-brand hotels) that were easily rented for 1000b/day now have to try to find customers with 600-700b.

 

The problem I see with the direction the city currently takes is that a 'seaside resort' with horrible and polluted beaches, roads increasingly congested by tour busses and less and less vegetation will have increasing issues attracting tourists to spend their holiday here. Here's the link to the 'bar scene': if, on top of that, girls in the major tourist venues like Gogo Bars hit customers for almost the same amount as p4p back in their home countries, punters will prefer to enjoy their main holidays somewhere else (where it's truly beautiful) and buy sex at home.

(Bangkok is at the borderline of an oversupply too already, but at least it's the capitol city which has different dynamics in the property market. Here, it's a holiday destination).

 

If I were city major , I'd ban busses from the inner city. Bus terminals in Naklua & Jomtien, from there only Songthaews and mini buses to get tourists to their hotels. Immediately put a stop on further "killing" Pratumnak hill with "condo" projects - further construction licenses after proving financing and an evaluation of demand and based on ecological / city development criteria. Wherever possible, construction of footpaths along the roads, while doing that, get rid of power lines and put them under earth (as they are starting to do it in Bangkok now). Cleaning up the beaches, patrols & high fines for boats or companies polluting the sea (ideally, partnering up with other cities up to the southern tip of the Eastern Seaboard). Finding a solution for the over-polluted Koh Larn (according to rumors, 30 mt's of garbage piled up there). Dedicated entertainment zones where other projects are not getting an approval, because a smart Pattaya would utilize their already existing 'brand' and protect the scene as integral part of their concept as holiday destination), public transport (electric buses?), limit to 1 vehicle per household etc.

 

Edited September 16, 2016 by pepi2005

[onemorechang]

5 minutes ago, pepi2005 said:

In a followup post I had mentioned that Chinese buyers are picking up some of the slack, so the situation regarding to "condos"/condo projects may actually not be that bad.

 

This may true to some extent, but after having spent a few weeks here again and having talked to people who actually know about the market because they are either renting themselves or property agents (who NOT try to sell me something :-)): each of them has said that there is a clear over-supply of apartments in Pattaya now and that prices (for both, rentals and re-sales) have been going DOWNHILL (to use the buzzword ) since a while now. Of course there are stubborn owners who decline to adapt their rates or certain top locations that are still easy to sell/rent, but in general, the impression seems to be that 50-60% of the units "up for rent" in Pattaya won't even get rented during this year's "high season"! Units (also rooms in non-brand hotels) that were easily rented for 1000b/day now have to try to find customers with 600-700b.

 

The problem I see with the direction the city currently takes is that a 'seaside resort' with horrible and polluted beaches, roads increasingly congested by tour busses and less and less vegetation will have increasing issues attracting tourists to spend their holiday here. Here's the link to the 'bar scene': if, on top of that, girls in the major tourist venues like Gogo Bars hit customers for almost the same amount as p4p back in their home countries, punters will prefer to enjoy their main holidays somewhere else (where it's truly beautiful) and buy sex at home.

(Bangkok is at the borderline of an oversupply too already, but at least it's the capitol city which has different dynamics in the property market. Here, it's a holiday destination).

 

If I were city major , I'd ban busses from the inner city. Bus terminals in Naklua & Jomtien, from there only Songthaews and mini buses to get tourists to their hotels. Immediately put a stop on further "killing" Pratumnak hill with "condo" projects - further construction licenses after proving financing and an evaluation of demand and based on ecological / city development criteria. Wherever possible, construction of footpaths along the roads, while doing that, get rid of power lines and put them under earth (as they are starting to do it in Bangkok now). Cleaning up the beaches, patrols & high fines for boats or companies polluting the sea (ideally, partnering up with other cities up to the southern tip of the Eastern Seaboard). Finding a solution for the over-polluted Koh Larn (according to rumors, 30 mt's of garbage piled up there). Dedicated entertainment zones where other projects are not getting an approval, because a smart Pattaya would utilize their already existing 'brand' and protect the scene as integral part of their concept as holiday destination), public transport (electric buses?), limit to 1 vehicle per household etc.

 

That all may well be true .

But the Sex  and the crack around town is  still great.

Pattaya the Top sex town of Asia ,  is not dead yet.

Long live Pattaya 

 

[newnative]

Good points Pepi2005.  The city needs to be doing much more in the way of sidewalk and road improvements, electric and cable wire management, public transportation, tour bus management, outreach for more mainstream entertainments, etc.  New condo projects need much closer scrutiny and none should be approved without total, verified financing in place and a certain percentage of confirmed buyers who have made substantial down payments, not just bookings.  I don't believe there is a glut of what I think of as desirable condos but there is definitely a glut of undesirably designed condo projects in undesirable locations  that Thais and foreigners alike do not want to buy.  But, even with this glut of undesirable, unsold condos, if you travel out Jomtien Second Road you will see a showroom being finished not far from Sukumvit for yet ANOTHER one of these undesirable, huge  'theme condos'.  Makes no sense to me. 

[pattayadude]

52 minutes ago, pepi2005 said:

In a followup post I had mentioned that Chinese buyers are picking up some of the slack, so the situation regarding to "condos"/condo projects may actually not be that bad.

 

This may true to some extent, but after having spent a few weeks here again and having talked to people who actually know about the market because they are either renting themselves or property agents (who NOT try to sell me something :-)): each of them has said that there is a clear over-supply of apartments in Pattaya now and that prices (for both, rentals and re-sales) have been going DOWNHILL (to use the buzzword ) since a while now. Of course there are stubborn owners who decline to adapt their rates or certain top locations that are still easy to sell/rent, but in general, the impression seems to be that 50-60% of the units "up for rent" in Pattaya won't even get rented during this year's "high season"! Units (also rooms in non-brand hotels) that were easily rented for 1000b/day now have to try to find customers with 600-700b.

 

The problem I see with the direction the city currently takes is that a 'seaside resort' with horrible and polluted beaches, roads increasingly congested by tour busses and less and less vegetation will have increasing issues attracting tourists to spend their holiday here. Here's the link to the 'bar scene': if, on top of that, girls in the major tourist venues like Gogo Bars hit customers for almost the same amount as p4p back in their home countries, punters will prefer to enjoy their main holidays somewhere else (where it's truly beautiful) and buy sex at home.

(Bangkok is at the borderline of an oversupply too already, but at least it's the capitol city which has different dynamics in the property market. Here, it's a holiday destination).

 

If I were city major , I'd ban busses from the inner city. Bus terminals in Naklua & Jomtien, from there only Songthaews and mini buses to get tourists to their hotels. Immediately put a stop on further "killing" Pratumnak hill with "condo" projects - further construction licenses after proving financing and an evaluation of demand and based on ecological / city development criteria. Wherever possible, construction of footpaths along the roads, while doing that, get rid of power lines and put them under earth (as they are starting to do it in Bangkok now). Cleaning up the beaches, patrols & high fines for boats or companies polluting the sea (ideally, partnering up with other cities up to the southern tip of the Eastern Seaboard). Finding a solution for the over-polluted Koh Larn (according to rumors, 30 mt's of garbage piled up there). Dedicated entertainment zones where other projects are not getting an approval, because a smart Pattaya would utilize their already existing 'brand' and protect the scene as integral part of their concept as holiday destination), public transport (electric buses?), limit to 1 vehicle per household etc.

 

 

23 minutes ago, newnative said:

Good points Pepi2005.  The city needs to be doing much more in the way of sidewalk and road improvements, electric and cable wire management, public transportation, tour bus management, outreach for more mainstream entertainments, etc.  New condo projects need much closer scrutiny and none should be approved without total, verified financing in place and a certain percentage of confirmed buyers who have made substantial down payments, not just bookings.  I don't believe there is a glut of what I think of as desirable condos but there is definitely a glut of undesirably designed condo projects in undesirable locations  that Thais and foreigners alike do not want to buy.  But, even with this glut of undesirable, unsold condos, if you travel out Jomtien Second Road you will see a showroom being finished not far from Sukumvit for yet ANOTHER one of these undesirable, huge  'theme condos'.  Makes no sense to me. 

the reason condos are 50% unsold is because the city itself has became undesirable for many!.traffic,overcrowding ,crime,dirty beach and changing attitudes.Not just my opinion as I don't care too much about these things as long as i'm having fun  but many do care..So developers only build cheap shoe boxes..Perfect for the type of clientele Pattaya  always  have attracted and always will attract as long as it remains a sex destination.

The City of Pattaya either doesn't have the budget to fix some of the mess(path-holes,wires,transportation) or they do NOT wanna fix it .

 

[pattayadude]

1 hour ago, onemorechang said:

Pattaya the Top sex town of Asia ,  is not dead yet.

I hope not!

[pepi2005]

Well I opened this topic and also particularly mentioned the real estate market as one of the most important factors that a.) show what people are ready to pay to live there and b.) shape a city (quality of construction, design, concrete replacing green). So I think this is in fact anything else than off topic regarding the way the city takes.

[newnative]

I think the majority of the unsold condos are in Jomtien/Pratamnuk and not Pattaya.   

[pattayadude]

1 minute ago, newnative said:

I think the majority of the unsold condos are in Jomtien/Pratamnuk and not Pattaya.   

true.also the majority of the condos are in Jomtien/Pratamnuk

[Alive]

Eventually all that traffic and people will be local and it will be called Bangkok-by-the-Sea.

[thaibeachlovers]

17 hours ago, newnative said:

I own all my comments and I am certainly not hiding behind someone else.  You baldly stated that condos are being built in Thailand only for Americans.  You didn't mention any other country.  Just America.  Totally wacko statement.  I was simply pointing out that I know someone from London who owns 3 condos in Pattaya so not just Americans are buying condos. I used the London friend as my example to show that even people from your home city buy condos here.  I could have  mentioned that I know a Swiss lady who also owns 3 condos in Pattaya.  And a German who owns 2.  And a New Zealander who owns 2.  And another Brit who owns 2.  And an Irishman who owns 3 condos and a house in company name.  And so on. What they are doing with their condos really has nothing to do with your statement that condos are only being built for Americans to buy.

Sooooo, all those farangs that you mentioned buying multiple condos are part of the reason Pattaya is going downhill. If there weren't farangs buying them they wouldn't build so many and Pattaya wouldn't be going downhill, or at least so fast.

I find it ironic that a NZ farang is buying multiple condos when foreigners buying up property in NZ has caused immense problems in the housing sector in NZ.

Personally, I think the Thai government would do well to extend the ban on foreign land ownership to more than one property, and that would have to be lived in for at least part of the year by the owner.

Of course that would kill the condo boom, and a jolly good thing too.

[SheungWan]

1 hour ago, pepi2005 said:

Well I opened this topic and also particularly mentioned the real estate market as one of the most important factors that a.) show what people are ready to pay to live there and b.) shape a city (quality of construction, design, concrete replacing green). So I think this is in fact anything else than off topic regarding the way the city takes.

 

Unsold condos right now is less to do with city green spaces and more to do with currency moves elsewhere.

[newnative]

Not everybody believes Pattaya is going downhill, TBL.   My New Zealand has one condo he lives in year round and one he rents out--which should make the posters who always say 'just rent, don't buy' happy. 

[JSixpack]

5 hours ago, pepi2005 said:

 in general, the impression seems to be that 50-60% of the units "up for rent" in Pattaya won't even get rented during this year's "high season"! Units (also rooms in non-brand hotels) that were easily rented for 1000b/day now have to try to find customers with 600-700b

 

Sounds positive for the monger market. Our mongers have been used to paying B400-500 a night, but salaries and pensions have risen back in the monger home countries. Take the example of Hod Carrier, a job to which an average monger might reasonably aspire. In 2008, the average salary for this job was £16,224. By 2015 it had risen to £23,333. —mysalary.co.uk

 

So B600 seems doable and possible locations have expanded enormously. We have a CONDO GLUT thread at least once a year.

 

Quote

The problem I see with the direction the city currently takes is that a 'seaside resort' with horrible and polluted beaches, roads increasingly congested by tour busses and less and less vegetation will have increasing issues attracting tourists to spend their holiday here. Here's the link to the 'bar scene': if, on top of that, girls in the major tourist venues like Gogo Bars hit customers for almost the same amount as p4p back in their home countries, punters will prefer to enjoy their main holidays somewhere else (where it's truly beautiful) and buy sex at home.

 

But it's always taken that direction, farangs have made your complaints for decades, and our deathwatchers have always predicted the City's doom on account of it since forever. Nothing in the least new here. You see, we're always looking for signs of coming DOOM and hoping for justice wreaked upon the stupid, wicked, inferior Thais for not giving us Santa Barbara or Monaco w/ cheap sex at beer Chang prices.

 

2007: Pattaya's Dead

2008: Is Pattaya Dead Right Now?

2009: Pattaya Is Dead Dead Dead
2010: Why Is Everything Closing Down?
2011: Even More Dead Than Last Year?
2012: What'S Next For A Beach Tourist Destination Like Pattaya?
2013: Widening Of Beach Rd Started At North End
2014: Is Pattaya really on the bones of it arse at the minute?
2015: The beach walkway? Low season is really low Pattaya is dead.

 

And in the Pattaya Mail before that, of course. Let's not omit the scams, the crime, the potholes (!), the black feet, cashiers not fawning, the runny eggs, and the haircuts with white sidewalls. Etc. Redevelopment plans have always been a great farang sport; heard a million of those already. But nothing's changed; nothing's gonna change. So be it.

 

Meanwhile, Pattaya abides and provides.

 

Given that your ace urban planning skills are totally wasted--nor could you afford to have your visa fees raised to pay for your plans--it'd really be better for you to spend your time elsewhere where all the space monkeys won't bother you and you can just relax and enjoy yourself. Me, I'm enjoying every day here.

 

<Pattaya Grand Redevelopment Plan snipped>

 

Edited September 16, 2016 by JSixpack

[Jiu-Jitsu]

8 hours ago, newnative said:

I'm getting a little fatter on the great Thai and other food available in Pattaya but last time I checked I am still just one person. You did say "Americans".  As always, you make a ridiculous comment, you get called on it, and out comes first an insult and then a little essay of misdirection on something having nothing to do with your original comment. Today's essay is  people buying condos for investment, which has no relation to your statement that Pattaya is losing its green spaces in order to provide condo choices for Americans. Now that I read it again, its a dumb statement whether "Americans" is singular or plural.  But, whatever. It's a beautiful morning, nice cool breeze on the balcony with my first cup of coffee, the Chinese are out on the bay doing their parasailing, the speedboats are weaving in and out in an elaborate dance, and the islands are beautiful in the distance.  Life is good.

 

 

Americans, as the earlier discussion was with you and Naam...who gracefully bowed out as he no longer wanted to be associated with your comments.  Americans, because I didn't want to mention you by name, lest it be viewed as a personal attack.

The last person who get's it will be you.   There is often some truth to the stereotype....and in your case, it's true.   Whooooosh....and over your head. 

Edited September 16, 2016 by Jiu-Jitsu

[Jiu-Jitsu]

2 hours ago, newnative said:

Not everybody believes Pattaya is going downhill, TBL.   My New Zealand has one condo he lives in year round and one he rents out--which should make the posters who always say 'just rent, don't buy' happy. 

 

What has that to do with anything? 

Many people have done ok financially. Bought when there wasn't a glut. When prices were reasonable and living space was adequate. 

I'm sure everyone has stories of people who have done ok and people who have suffered. 

The thread is about the overall quality of life. We know that it is not terrible, otherwise everyone would just leave if they could. But is it improving? That is the discussion.

Perhaps for you, living in Pattaya is a step up. 

 

Edited September 16, 2016 by Jiu-Jitsu

[newnative]

Ha. "...lest it be viewed as a personal attack."  That's rich.  Remember you've already posted that I have a tiny brain, I'm thick, simple-minded, have weeds for brains, everything is over my head, and probably a half dozen or more other insults that I've forgotten.  I don't recall Naam and I discussing anything lately--if at all.  Certainly I don't think we hashed over Pattaya losing its green spaces to provide condo choices for Americans or just this particular American.