Chiang Mai: Guardians of our Gates

[webfact]

Guardians of our Gates

by Pim Kemasingki

Photography by Yutthaphong Kaewsuk

 

CHIANG MAI: -- Over the past few months Citylife has received numerous emails, and even had personal visits, from expatriates who have expressed frustrations over the ongoing problems at Chiang Mai Immigration Office.

 

Online forums and social media groups have been overflowing with criticism of the department, which so many rely on. We have heard of long queues, all-night vigils, allegations of corruption, overworked staff and a mounting number of people given wrong (or not being given) information, causing them to go to great expense to pay overstay fines or having to leave the country to redo their visas, and these are just some of the more frequent gripes.

 

In early September, in order to hear more on this matter from our readers, we conducted an online survey, asking our readers to give us a few insights as to their experiences at immigration, and to also suggest improvements to the services. Nearly 300 respondents offered up alarming, heartbreaking and outrageous anecdotes of their own experiences, as well as some more understanding and helpful suggestions which we will forward to immigration in hopes they will be of help to the beleaguered department.

 

For the past year, Citylife has been requesting an interview with Chiang Mai Immigration, but have yet to receive a response. This may be due in part to a 2013 interview we conducted with Police Colonel Prachak Awaiyawanont, the then-newly appointed chief of the Chiang Mai Immigration. Unfortunately, following his extremely candid interview [Immigration Frustrations, ChiangMaiCitylife.com] during which he told us that he was greatly understaffed, that budget from the Treasury Department wasn’t forthcoming for new facilities, the fact that only 20% of the annual 100 million baht collected in fines and fees was sent back to Chiang Mai, and his suggestion that we all write to complain to the Prime Ministers’ office, he was quickly removed from office and I am sorry to say I don’t know what has happened to him. Before he left, he called me in for a ceremonial knuckle-rapping, photographed by his staff, to be sent to Bangkok to imply that I had misquoted him. I hadn’t. He did say before the interview that he was soon to retire and that was why he was willing to be so forthcoming.

 

For months, we have been umming and aahing about writing this story, afraid to get not just ourselves, but anyone we talked to, into trouble. Our office has been visited by immigration staff over the years, often intimidating, and on occasion, asking for bribes.

 

A few months ago, during a conversation with a well-placed source in the Chiang Mai Consular Corps, we were pleased to hear that the corps, comprised of consuls and honorary consuls from 19 countries, had placed immigration reform as one of their priority issues, having met with members of the immigration department, the governor as well as their own ambassadors to discuss this issue.

 

“At times the response is enthusiastic,” said our source in the consular corps. “We come out of meetings feeling really good, accomplished. But then nothing happens. We have been invited by the [immigration] department to form an advisory group, but they keep pulling the carpet from under our feet.”

So it was with great excitement that our longshot request to interview the head of Region 5 (northern Thailand) immigration, which oversees Chiang Mai Immigration, was granted.

 

Full story: http://www.chiangmaicitylife.com/citylife-articles/guardians-of-our-gates/

 

-- CityLife Chiang Mai 2016-10-04

[mania]

Of course it was nice to see some questioning of this problem & I also

took part in the citylife survey online

 

But to be honest reading this report does not instill much hope for things

to improve. The usual "be patient" or " in a year airport branch will be bigger but no parking"

This is nothing to get excited about...at all

 

When asked about GT4 they never heard of it? <cough cough>  Come now

 

Lastly no talk at all about the biggest current problem

being.... redundancy....... in asking the same thing over & over & over

 

Not least of which is the 90 day reports ....why give a yearly extension at all then?

It is not good for a year it is good for 90 days really isn't it?

 

Or the new visits by cops to talk with your neighbors etc...forms asking weird irrelevant questions etc etc etc.

 

Again nice to see some Q's asked but answers are all too predictable

After 4 years of it we were happy to fly out & take a break from it

 

We keep watching thinking we will move back in the near future but

these results & the increase stress we read about does not make us hopeful

 

As to the mandatory insurance to get a visa ext/retire...I had written about it

myself before & would not blame them at all for requiring it

After all as we often read here many expats feel it is ok to just take a chance & "think" they

can pay of a problem arises , or just fly "home" for free treatment.

 But with so many skint retirees eventually Thailand will be left holding many bills

 

 

 

Edited October 4, 2016 by mania

[Chicog]

Perhaps if they made better use of technology (e.g. 90 day reporting online), they'd have more staff to work on other things.

Or better still make 90 day reporting 180 day reporting.

It's a pointless exercise anyway.

Or maybe these farang "tracking SIMs" will remove the need for reporting altogether.

 

 

As for not being able to do anything about corruption, well why would you want to when you're probably trousering your share of it?

[evenstevens]

more porky pies being sold, the situation at the immgr dept will remain Status Quao..Fullstop

 

[masuk]

I love the 'typo' in the heading to this article  'IMMIGIRATION'.

 

Intentional or not?     So apt.

[NancyL]

While the interviewer didn't ask all the difficult questions we'd like to ask, and the answers at times were beyond belief, I found the article remarkable for several reasons.

 

First, that Maj. Gen. Bundit even agreed to sit for an interview, in light of the candid description of the events that unfolded the last time someone of rank in Immigration agreed to CityLife interview.  Second, that the Maj. Gen. openly admits to there being corruption in the department, and third the results of the survey that show more than 50% of the respondents have spent six hours or more in one day at Immigration.  (gee, could there be a cause-and-effect between my third and second point?)  That's a level of service that's unacceptable by any standard in any Thai gov't office.

 

Also interesting is the access that Khun Pim had to an unnamed source in our local Consular Corp who told her that early this year a committee set up by Col. Rutjapong and lead by CMU had developed a working on-line appointment system that had been tested and given a greenlight -- only to be cancelled at the last moment.  By whom?  

 

Articles like this get noticed high up.  Long rambling threads of anonymous posts that go on for dozens of pages in ThaiVisa don't. 

 

Perhaps there's more going on behind the scenes than we realize.  

[williamgeorgeallen]

i really want to ask if chang mai is really good enough to put up with all that crap? i go through jomtien soi 5 and they are very good there. have come along way since i started living in pattaya 9 years ago.

[elgordo38]

5 hours ago, webfact said:

For the past year, Citylife has been requesting an interview with Chiang Mai Immigration, but have yet to receive a response.

Why am I not surprised. Just restoring the online queue system and upping the number of slots to 20 would go a long way in eliminating problems like going there at 3.30 a.m. in the morning and being number 3 on the list should tell you something. Finally seeing an agent at 9.30 a.m. At least they could install some pinball machines or something for entertainment. I guess restoring the queue system would eat into the agent business and well that is a rabbit hole. The queue system worked so perfectly and yet was suddenly yanked away and up popped the agents. Strange turn of events coincidence possibly. 

Edited October 4, 2016 by elgordo38

[elgordo38]

5 hours ago, webfact said:

A few months ago, during a conversation with a well-placed source in the Chiang Mai Consular Corps, we were pleased to hear that the corps, comprised of consuls and honorary consuls from 19 countries, had placed immigration reform as one of their priority issues, having met with members of the immigration department, the governor as well as their own ambassadors to discuss this issue.

Well how has that working out for us? It is just another example of all the baloney that I have been exposed to over the decades listening to all these blowhards making promises and never delivering. It sickens me now to watch their horse puckee drivel on the TV. We live under the control of a world wide bloated bureaucracy reminds me of a movie called "Hogfather"

[Rama]

Can't say I've had a bad experience. I've never had a bad experience at immigration. Yes, there's always the lines, but that's true in all countries, it's not a problem peculiar to Thailand...I remember driving by US immigration at 6 am in the US and seeing ques of several hundred people stretching around the block waiting for an 8 am opening. Can't imagine what time they got there, and in severe cold also. Foreigners are not voters, so always underfunded, understaffed, no matter what country you go its bad. Deal with it.

[TPI]

3 hours ago, williamgeorgeallen said:

i really want to ask if chang mai is really good enough to put up with all that crap? i go through jomtien soi 5 and they are very good there. have come along way since i started living in pattaya 9 years ago.

Have to say that Nan is pretty good as well, nearly all female officers and they all "tick " along like a clock. In/ out 30 minutes tops!

[tracker1]

Whats annoying is the goal post change all the time one officer tells you you need this then you go back another officer tells you you need that surely they could have a set list of what is needed Not that hard to do ?

[balo]

No real number system , the first thing they should do is to give you a number. Intead people are just standing there and wonder what to do . Chonburi has done a remarkable job , no copies needed , just bring your passport for the 90 day report. In and out within 10 minutes. 

In Chiang Mai 2 copies of everything , they are just doing it for fun I think. 

 

[jko]

If there were more Thai people as courageously outspoken as Khun Pim, Chiang Mai would be a better place.

Kudos to her.

[oldlakey]

4 hours ago, Rama said:

Can't say I've had a bad experience. I've never had a bad experience at immigration. Yes, there's always the lines, but that's true in all countries, it's not a problem peculiar to Thailand...I remember driving by US immigration at 6 am in the US and seeing ques of several hundred people stretching around the block waiting for an 8 am opening. Can't imagine what time they got there, and in severe cold also. Foreigners are not voters, so always underfunded, understaffed, no matter what country you go its bad. Deal with it.

No its not, not by any yardstick

[gamini]

It seems that every year more and more people are retiring to Chiangmai and the immigration Department just can't cope with the numbers. So you can't really blame them. It seems that the same thing is happening in Hua Hin too. They have to keep moving in order to keep up with the huge numbers.

[Johpa]

40 minutes ago, gamini said:

It seems that every year more and more people are retiring to Chiangmai and the immigration Department just can't cope with the numbers. So you can't really blame them. It seems that the same thing is happening in Hua Hin too. They have to keep moving in order to keep up with the huge numbers.

 

And the Thai solution in Chiang Mai was, seeing opportunity,  for the immigration officials to set up some relatives to run visa "services" operations adjacent to immigration.

[hmficc]

A large convenience tax is placed on a visa renewal. It is not without purpose. Expates are suffered not welcomed. The government see expats as whinging parasites using income arbitrage to help themselves cut rate goodies. They have had enough of the world's unwanted and would be pleased if all but high earners would leave. 

 

[gamini]

11 hours ago, hmficc said:

A large convenience tax is placed on a visa renewal. It is not without purpose. Expates are suffered not welcomed. The government see expats as whinging parasites using income arbitrage to help themselves cut rate goodies. They have had enough of the world's unwanted and would be pleased if all but high earners would leave. 

 

What a ridiculous post. Visa renewal in Thailand is probably one of the cheapest places the world and unlike other places  foreign  residents do not pay tax. In my opinion you probably never been to another country because most of us find the government very welcoming and I have never felt otherwise. Equally I found immigration officials in Thailand usually more pleasant and accommodating than in other countries. But as I said before you probably  have  never been to another country

[hmficc]

35 countries and counting.

as to LOS, the trend is not your friend.

[millwall_fan]

Anyone who has dealt with the British immigration system in Croydon and the costs they charge would not whinge at the Thai system. If you don't want to wait in a long line, get a visa agent, its really as simple as that!

 

[jonwilly]

"If you don't want to wait in a long line, get a visa agent, its really as simple as that!"

 

Could not agree more.

 

john

Used Assist Thai Visa since they opened with no problems.

[NancyL]

One thing this article doesn't touch on is that the problem of long waits to complete service and the need to employ visa agents to expedite routine matters is unique to Chiang Mai.  I'm not faulting the article for this -- the topic was beyond the scope of the interview.  However, I'm pointing out this fact to those posters who have the attitude of "gee, what's the problem"    Why has this problem been allowed to persist in Chiang Mai when other provinces with high numbers of foreign retirees (like Pattaya and Phuket) report short waits and ease of dealing with Immigration?

 

Also, comparison with the Immigration services in your home country aren't valid.  We retirees aren't here seeking citizenship and social services.  Many other Thai government and non-government agencies spent big baht on campaigns to encourage us to retire (i.e. long-stay) in Thailand.  There is a major disconnect with the treatment we receive at Chiang Mai Immigration and what we're promised by the campaigns encouraging "long-stay in Thailand".

[Thailand]

There is a problem when you have to use a visa agent/line sitter to do what should be a simple task within a reasonable time frame.

 

It's an easy remedy but the ptb seem to simply not want to go down that route instead putting up more barriers.

 

Loved the bit about special treatment for over sixties probably only applies to abut 90% of those stuck in the "retirement" visa merry go round! 

[gamini]

1 hour ago, NancyL said:

One thing this article doesn't touch on is that the problem of long waits to complete service and the need to employ visa agents to expedite routine matters is unique to Chiang Mai.  I'm not faulting the article for this -- the topic was beyond the scope of the interview.  However, I'm pointing out this fact to those posters who have the attitude of "gee, what's the problem"    Why has this problem been allowed to persist in Chiang Mai when other provinces with high numbers of foreign retirees (like Pattaya and Phuket) report short waits and ease of dealing with Immigration?

 

Also, comparison with the Immigration services in your home country aren't valid.  We retirees aren't here seeking citizenship and social services.  Many other Thai government and non-government agencies spent big baht on campaigns to encourage us to retire (i.e. long-stay) in Thailand.  There is a major disconnect with the treatment we receive at Chiang Mai Immigration and what we're promised by the campaigns encouraging "long-stay in Thailand".

I think the real problem with Changmai immigration is the increasing number of people wanting to retire there. I personally knew  one of the immigration officers. He complained bitterly about not having enough staff or room. And even after they moved they seem to be overwhelmed by more and more people wanting to stay or extend their visas.
I believe quite a lot of people are moving from Pattaya, Phuket and Samui to Chiangmai.

[Chicog]

58 minutes ago, gamini said:

I think the real problem with Changmai immigration is the increasing number of people wanting to retire there. I personally knew  one of the immigration officers. He complained bitterly about not having enough staff or room. And even after they moved they seem to be overwhelmed by more and more people wanting to stay or extend their visas.
I believe quite a lot of people are moving from Pattaya, Phuket and Samui to Chiangmai.

 

And, as has been mentioned, a significant number of foreign workers. Someone has to build all those empty condos....

[CMX]

One of the things I've stopped doing in recent years is fretting about realities, such as Immigration rules and practice here, that are beyond my reach.  Those decisions taken by high authority might be wrong, but I've no way of knowing - nor do any of us expats.  Workers themselves, from what I've seen in 4 years, are wonderful in their service.

 

So I am limited to doing, for myself, that which allows me to enjoy the many pleasures and advantages of living here - I find the least difficult solution for me.  It might be the mail, doing something online, or paying (relatively little) for a service; this is a shifting field.  But to live in anguish about how things should be does not enrich me at all; I pick one of the above.

 

But all my regards to Pim!

[happy Joe]

On 04/10/2016 at 4:30 PM, williamgeorgeallen said:

i really want to ask if chang mai is really good enough to put up with all that crap? i go through jomtien soi 5 and they are very good there. have come along way since i started living in pattaya 9 years ago.

 

True that Jomptien is faster, but personally I never had any problem in Chiang Mai.

 

If you listen to the whiners of the city, you never finished you worry. Starting from immigration as here through the fumes of Spring, the lack of water in the dry season and too much water in  monsoon, the police ethnic profiling and lack of decent hamburger.

 

Otherwise you have to eat at Dukes and meet between aged embittered criticize the country.

 

I think we should give a special medal to CM staff Immigration undergoing these people every day that God made.

[Atum]

5 hours ago, happy Joe said:

 

True that Jomptien is faster, but personally I never had any problem in Chiang Mai.

 

If you listen to the whiners of the city, you never finished you worry. Starting from immigration as here through the fumes of Spring, the lack of water in the dry season and too much water in  monsoon, the police ethnic profiling and lack of decent hamburger.

 

Otherwise you have to eat at Dukes and meet between aged embittered criticize the country.

 

I think we should give a special medal to CM staff Immigration undergoing these people every day that God made.

"I have never had a problem" so therefore there is no problem. This is a common view on ThaiVisa. It is a very immature and very selfish view. So when do you renew your yearly extension, happy Joe? In June or July?