May ready for tough talks over Brexit

[Khun Han]

2 minutes ago, rockingrobin said:

It is a charade being played out for domestic consumption

The principle of respect of acquired rights , will mean most rights will be protected 

 

Didn't Malta state that they wouldn't protect the rights of British expats?

[Flustered]

3 minutes ago, rockingrobin said:

It is a charade being played out for domestic consumption

The principle of respect of acquired rights , will mean most rights will be protected 

Please do not think I was referring to the immortal Robin as a game bird. game birds are for shooting down but Robins are the gardeners friend.

 

Now, your post. It is very early in the morning (not yet 09:00 hrs) but which side of the fence is your post aimed at??  If it were a tad longer it would be a classic  Sir Humphrey style post.  

[Flustered]

4 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

 

Didn't Malta state that they wouldn't protect the rights of British expats?

They even said they would veto it.

[dick dasterdly]

1 hour ago, Laughing Gravy said:

Yes many of them are dimwits. just by not being in touch with the people qualifies them for that. Also many of them are Europhiles who are happy to continue taking EU money and pensions. We have different views which is obvious. you have stated before that you consider yourself European. I do not I am British which is a country in Europe. I never agreed with the EU and whatever happens being free from the EU shackles is enough for me. I have faith and believe in the people of the UK to be able to feed itself, compete in business and not have to bow down and be told what to do.

 

"But the Prime Minister is confident the amendment will be rejected by the Commons later this month, and Downing Street insisted the timetable for Brexit “remains unchanged”.

 

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/03/01/brexit-lords-vote-debate-theresa-may-pmqs-live/

No need to qualify the statement that many in the HoL are dimwits by watering it down  - i.e. because 'they're not in touch with the people'.

 

Obviously that's true, but there are good reasons to believe that a few of them are 'intellectually challenged' - without even getting into the ridiculous structure of the HoL which consists of 'birthright' and a 'reward' for retired politicians....

Edited March 2, 2017 by dick dasterdly

[rockingrobin]

18 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

 

Didn't Malta state that they wouldn't protect the rights of British expats?

But it is UK law that is changing not Malta or any other EU member, for them only the facts change.

Consider a Brit expat in Spain, lawfully resident in Spain under Spanish law (similiar to the UKs 1972 ECA) , The expat as already exercised his right and thus acquired the right

After Brexit the expats FOM may cease as the fact of UK not being a member but his right to reside will remain

[Flustered]

23 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

Obviously that's true, but there are good reasons to believe that a few of them are 'intellectually challenged' - without even getting into the ridiculous structure of the HoL which consists of 'birthright' and a 'reward' for retired politicians....

Fewer birthrights nowadays Dick. We have managed to get rid of a lot of the in breds.

 

Now it is full of people like John Prescott and Shami Chakrabarti, people who had sworn it was their vowed intent to get rid of the Lords but once they were offered the key to the pig trough jumped in snouts first.

 

If you look at the chart, you will see that the Luvvie Lib Dems are grossly over represented and women under represented.

 

Like America, they should be cut down to 100 and be voted in by the public. That would sort out the mess.

 

http://www.parliament.uk/mps-lords-and-offices/lords/composition-of-the-lords/

Edited March 2, 2017 by Flustered

[Khun Han]

11 minutes ago, rockingrobin said:

But it is UK law that is changing not Malta or any other EU member, for them only the facts change.

Consider a Brit expat in Spain, lawfully resident in Spain under Spanish law (similiar to the UKs 1972 ECA) , The expat as already exercised his right and thus acquired the right

After Brexit the expats FOM may cease as the fact of UK not being a member but his right to reside will remain

 

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here Robin. Is it that British expats' rights in the EU won't change when we brexit?

[Flustered]

5 minutes ago, rockingrobin said:

But it is UK law that is changing not Malta or any other EU member, for them only the facts change.

Consider a Brit expat in Spain, lawfully resident in Spain under Spanish law (similiar to the UKs 1972 ECA) , The expat as already exercised his right and thus acquired the right

After Brexit the expats FOM may cease as the fact of UK not being a member but his right to reside will remain

You are making the case for the UK citizens in this one Robin. Malta has stated it will veto any deal that guarantees UK citizens rights to live in the EU. That effectively screws all UK citizens in the EU unless they have PR status. For this alone we must insist on a reciprocal agreement.

 

The same applies to any EU citizen lawfully resident in the UK under UK law. In Spain, you have to sign the Padron and declare yourself Spanish resident before you can go down the permanent residency route. Exactly the same as the UK except we do not have the Padron. If no deal is reached, then these ex pats resident in Spain are vulnerable to EU law. That is why many are trying to gain Spanish citizenship or PR.

 

Any UK citizen working in the EU who does not have permanent residency of the country they are in is in exactly the same boat as the EU citizens in the UK..They could be kicked out as soon as we leave if we do not look after their rights as well as EU citizen rights.

[SheungWan]

1 hour ago, Flustered said:

I think he posted it in the wrong thread

That would be the 'Lords Expenses Bad, UKIP MEP Expense Fiddle Good' thread presumably.

Edited March 2, 2017 by SheungWan

[Grouse]

1 hour ago, Laughing Gravy said:

One Lord talking sense for once.

 

Lord Lamont, the former Tory chancellor, said: “It is an attempt to impose conditions on the negotiation, which I think is inappropriate because the purpose of the Bill is simply to trigger the start of withdraw negotiations

 “I think they are doing a disservice to the national interest. You shouldn’t be imposing conditions [on the Government]. The negotiations need flexibility. 

“I hope that it will be rejected by the Commons and sent back here. If that is not the end of the matter I think the Lords will be playing with fire.”

Don't get me going on Lamont

 

What an incompetent!

 

He who allowed interest rates to get to over 16% !!

 

He then tried to get a safe Tory seat in Harrogate and was sent packing

 

Grubby little man

 

Now Lawson used to be great; until he gave up the drink and became a twisted old miser.....

 

All these Con Party types are pulling the wool over the eyes of the numpties. It seems VERY easy for them to do that! Come here Little Red Riding Hood, I won't hurt you! Or, come here Goldilocks and I'll give you a chance to pay for the porridge! Yeah, I trust them....

 

Suckers

 

 

Edited March 2, 2017 by Grouse

[Grouse]

1 hour ago, SheungWan said:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/feb/01/nigel-farage-among-ukip-meps-accused-of-misusing-eu-funds

fancy that!

I wondered what UKIP and the FN had in common; now we know.......

[Flustered]

28 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

That would be the 'Lords Expenses Bad, UKIP MEP Expense Fiddle Good' thread presumably.

Still have no idea what you are talking about or what this has to do with the thread.

[nontabury]

1 hour ago, Khun Han said:

Didn't Malta state that they wouldn't protect the rights of British expats?

Malta with a population of 450,000 including ex-pats. Compare this with Leeds population of 775,000.

In the 1960's Malta under the premiership of Don Mintoff failed in it's attempt to be incorporated into the UK. Showing that the British government at the time,knew a thing or two about the quality of Maltese politicians. This has been confirmed with their present P.M.

 Tourism is now an important sector in the Maltese economy,relieing heavenly on the British market.Therefore I think they would have far more to loose, should the negotiations turn nasty. And that would be a shame,as most Maltese are lovely people.

 

[Grouse]

1 hour ago, Flustered said:

I was a little shocked and embarrassed to find out that a certain "game bird" is from Yorkshire. from the way he posts, I could have sworn he was Scotch.

 

6 posts in a row. If you push the + button, you cam do multiple quotes on a single post. Sometimes when not responding to another FM a few consecutive posts look OK but 6 is excessive. I realise that not all old people are computer savvy so FYI you just push the + button on the post.

 

You have failed to give any reasonable answers as to why the UK citizens in the EU are being ignored. Oh wait a minute, you have never answered that question. It is pivotal to the whole issue of granting EU citizens UK status.

 

Why do you want to leave the UK citizens in the EU high and dry? What has happened to you that you would turn your back on fellow countrymen? Why do the EU citizens come before your own countrymen?

Well at least you got "from Yorkshire" correct; some oaf accused me of being a county! I'm big, but not that big! 

 

My father was a Scot and I consider myself half Scottish. However, I was born in Middlesbrough and went to school in Sheffield; it was along walk, but worth it.

 

Scotch is a drink; you can guess my preferred variety 

 

Thanks for the tip about the + button; one learns something new every day!

 

You missed the point about "doing the right thing". Sometimes, acting with candour and being upright can have a very powerful effect on whomever one is negotiating with. Do you think the EU could fail to follow suit?

 

Also, don't you feel the weight of our noble history on your shoulders? Our forefathers would not have hesitated to do "The Right Thing" immediately and occupy the moral high ground!

 

Today's cynicism is so disappointing; embarrassing even.....

 

When I was working in Germany, one saw the phrase "gentlemen's agreement" embedded in German text from time to time. We at least used to have a reputation....

 

In conclusion, by standing up for what is right, we "spike their guns".

 

I do believe that our erstwhile European friends and colleagues will do the right thing anyway.

 

Did your mum ask for a written receipt when she gave you pocket money?

 

Where did you learn not to trust anybody?

 

 

 

 

[Grouse]

1 hour ago, Flustered said:

Fewer birthrights nowadays Dick. We have managed to get rid of a lot of the in breds.

 

Now it is full of people like John Prescott and Shami Chakrabarti, people who had sworn it was their vowed intent to get rid of the Lords but once they were offered the key to the pig trough jumped in snouts first.

 

If you look at the chart, you will see that the Luvvie Lib Dems are grossly over represented and women under represented.

 

Like America, they should be cut down to 100 and be voted in by the public. That would sort out the mess.

 

http://www.parliament.uk/mps-lords-and-offices/lords/composition-of-the-lords/

You think the American system is superior?

 

Ridiculous

 

Do you own a TV set?

 

I do agree that their are too many Lords and I see no place for Bishops (do we still have them?)

[Grouse]

12 minutes ago, nontabury said:

Malta with a population of 450,000 including ex-pats. Compare this with Leeds population of 775,000.

In the 1960's Malta under the premiership of Don Mintoff failed in it's attempt to be incorporated into the UK. Showing that the British government at the time,knew a thing or two about the quality of Maltese politicians. This has been confirmed with their present P.M.

 Tourism is now an important sector in the Maltese economy,relieing heavenly on the British market.Therefore I think they would have far more to loose, should the negotiations turn nasty. And that would be a shame,as most Maltese are lovely people.

 

I wouldn't like to see a Maltese cross......

[Flustered]

If we were dealing with just one other country it would be different, but thanks to the stupid treaties everyone has signed, countries have all sorts of vetos.

 

We have to negotiate with 27 different countries,. Yes there may be far fewer actual negotiators but every country will want it's opinions taken notice of. Whatever the negotiators agree has to go back to each individual country fro ratification as the UK leaving means the Lisbon Treaty is no longer valid. The number of countries will be 27 and not 28 as stated in the Treaty.

 

Cast your mind back just a few months to the trade deal with Canada and where Walloon  (Belgium) stood it's ground until they were bribed to alter it. With the UK it will be even worse as several countries have said they will punish us.  Do not forget this will not be a series of different agreements, it will be one all encompassing agreement so it cannot work. We will leave the EU under the terms of the WTO. Not bad but not the best arrangement and it will not be us, but countries in the EU that cause this.

 

And you want us to sacrifice the rights of UK citizens just to take the moral high ground.

[Grouse]

1 minute ago, Flustered said:

If we were dealing with just one other country it would be different, but thanks to the stupid treaties everyone has signed, countries have all sorts of vetos.

 

We have to negotiate with 27 different countries,. Yes there may be far fewer actual negotiators but every country will want it's opinions taken notice of. Whatever the negotiators agree has to go back to each individual country fro ratification as the UK leaving means the Lisbon Treaty is no longer valid. The number of countries will be 27 and not 28 as stated in the Treaty.

 

Cast your mind back just a few months to the trade deal with Canada and where Walloon  (Belgium) stood it's ground until they were bribed to alter it. With the UK it will be even worse as several countries have said they will punish us.  Do not forget this will not be a series of different agreements, it will be one all encompassing agreement so it cannot work. We will leave the EU under the terms of the WTO. Not bad but not the best arrangement and it will not be us, but countries in the EU that cause this.

 

And you want us to sacrifice the rights of UK citizens just to take the moral high ground.

OK, I give up.....

[SheungWan]

Nissan could face $620 million Brexit hit: http://tinyurl.com/hmsmwdh

[Flustered]

22 minutes ago, Grouse said:

OK, I give up.....

Just to understand your point of view, some clarification is needed.

 

You are aware that this is not a series of agreements but an all encompassing treaty? We will not be allowed (in the words of Junkers) to cherry pick. If we fail to agree on one item, we have no treaty and all of our UK citizens in the EU are well and truly screwed.

 

So, if we take your moral high ground and allow full rights to all EU citizens at present in the UK, we have to accept a deal in order to protect the UK citizens in the EU. That effectively means that the EU will black mail us into submission and to accept a deal that is bad for the UK just to placate your moral compass.

 

Do you now understand why a one way deal is so bad?

[citybiker]

Baroness Altman: It would be immoral to ignore the current EU citizens. (UK citizens already requested EU clarification and denied).

The only people using the EU citizens as bargaining chips are the Lords, absolutely no mention or priority for all this British currently residing in the EU.

Lord Howard gave a reminder to those pleading the moral high ground to get a grip..

Good job the the final decision is with the 'elected' part of the Palace of Westminster and not the dullards of the Lords..


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Grouse]

2 minutes ago, Flustered said:

Just to understand your point of view, some clarification is needed.

 

 

You are aware that this is not a series of agreements but an all encompassing treaty? We will not be allowed (in the words of Junkers) to cherry pick. If we fail to agree on one item, we have no treaty and all of our UK citizens in the EU are well and truly screwed.

 

 

So, if we take your moral high ground and allow full rights to all EU citizens at present in the UK, we have to accept a deal in order to protect the UK citizens in the EU. That effectively means that the EU will black mail us into submission and to accept a deal that is bad for the UK just to placate your moral compass.

 

 

Do you now understand why a one way deal is so bad?

Let's just leave it that we disagree.

 

I would say to the EU, we have done the right thing and we expect you to reciprocate. ANYTHING can be agreed between the parties.

 

But have it your way; play hardball with everybody about everything. We seem to be living in your world now and it doesn't feel so good I can tell you. So much bitterness, so much anger, so little community so little society....

[rockingrobin]

1 hour ago, Khun Han said:

 

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here Robin. Is it that British expats' rights in the EU won't change when we brexit?

Some rights will change, the ability to reside say from one member state to another (eg moving from france to spain), other rights will remain but may impact the expat differently. British pensioners health costs are paid for by the UK, now if  this commitment was not to be honored after brexit then the expat would be required to buy health insurance.

 

As for acquired rights , should law be prospective thus providing legal certainty or retrospective thus a person suffers for an act which was lawful at the time

[rockingrobin]

12 minutes ago, citybiker said:

Baroness Altman: It would be immoral to ignore the current EU citizens. (UK citizens already requested EU clarification and denied).

The only people using the EU citizens as bargaining chips are the Lords, absolutely no mention or priority for all this British currently residing in the EU.

Lord Howard gave a reminder to those pleading the moral high ground to get a grip..

Good job the the final decision is with the 'elected' part of the Palace of Westminster and not the dullards of the Lords..


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

All the British expat groups support the amendment 

[Grouse]

22 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

Nissan could face $620 million Brexit hit: http://tinyurl.com/hmsmwdh

No problem for St Teresa; just a little bit more squeezing the austerity budget, close a few wards, close DEFRA and Bob's your uncle. Nice fat brown envelope for Nissan ( and Honda, and Ford, and Toyota, and Peugeot.....plus an extra fat one for Jaguar Landrover because we want your inward investment but none of your pointy head Indian engineers and scientists). Never mind EU immigrant families, but we'll do a deal with the car industry upfront. Sorry numpties, back of the line....

Edited March 2, 2017 by Grouse

[SheungWan]

Cable now below $1.23

[citybiker]

All the British expat groups support the amendment 

Support & acquiring legal approval are two different things.

I truly hope the EU do reciprocate, if anything to give peace of mind for all British citizens, however the current vibe, and consistent mindset wording from the EU and it's members has been simply to punish the U.K. especially focusing on the economic element.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Khun Han]

7 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

Cable now below $1.23

 

Oh dear, we're off again. Not so much as a squawk when it was not far short of 1.26 a few days ago.

[Grouse]

30 minutes ago, rockingrobin said:

All the British expat groups support the amendment 

Just spoke to my sister and brother in law who live in Aragon, Spain. They, and all their fellow expats support The Lords. Absolutely.

[Grouse]

18 minutes ago, citybiker said:

Support & acquiring legal approval are two different things.

I truly hope the EU do reciprocate, if anything to give peace of mind for all British citizens, however the current vibe, and consistent mindset wording from the EU and it's members has been simply to punish the U.K. especially focusing on the economic element.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Who exactly is asking for punishment? We've been through this. It's the UK dumb press winding people up. Last time, one statement from a junior French minister was unearthed and even that was not a threat per se.

 

The Europeans with whom I chat from time to time are more embarrassed for us than angry. We just appear silly.