May ready for tough talks over Brexit

[sandyf]

16 hours ago, nauseus said:

Hello Grouse,

 

I asked for help but finally found this myself. I have chosen blue for my replies and I had a new set of crayons for my birthday!

 

Overall, the importance of your points do not outweigh the importance of respecting the constitution of the UK, retaining sovereignty and controlling law-making. I suspect that many of the plus points listed would either exist, or be attainable, with or without the EU.  

 

= = = 

 

What did the EU ever do for us?

 

Here's 42 points to start with

 

These are other people’s ideas that I happen to agree with

 

Regret cannot use colour; you'll just have to muddle through....(Those crayons were expensive too - made in Germany!)

 

Freedom to live, work, retire anywhere in Europe – plenty of people doing this pre EU, perhaps not as freely though.

 

1.4 million British people live abroad in the EU – convenient but not critically important to the UK itself.

 

More than 14,500 UK students took part in the European Union’s Erasmus student exchange scheme in 2012-13 – nice but not critical.

 

3M British jobs linked to exports to EU – so if the UK was not in the EU there would be no jobs associated with Europe???

 

Stability for 476,000 British farmers – majority of British farmers voted out.

 

Equal pay for men and women is enshrined in EU law, as are bans on discrimination by age, race or sexual orientation. This benefits Britain and British people who live in other EU countries - this would likely be law in the UK by now anyway.

 

Workers' protection greatly enhanced in terms of safety, security, working hours, breaks, leave etc - this would likely be law in the UK by now anyway.

 

Ease of vacations 31M visits to EU countries in 2014 – nice but not critical.

 

Protection against black listed airlines - this would likely be law in the UK by now anyway.

 

When visiting EU countries, UK citizens have the right to emergency health care – nice but not critical.

 

Consular protection in the absence of a UK Embassy – nice but not critical.

 

Consumer protection – quality and safety of products bought anywhere in EU - this would likely be law in the UK by now anyway.

 

2-year protection by guarantee against faulty goods – ditto (above).

 

Roaming rates rip offs stopped - this would likely be law in the UK by now anyway.

 

Lower credit card fees – nice but not critical.

 

Cheaper flights – gimme a break.

 

Proper compensation when flights are delayed or cancelled – ditto.

 

Enhanced protection from terrorism, trafficking, paedophiles, cyber crime – look at the explosion in rape crime in northern Europe after Merkel opened the doors! Ditto above!

 

The European Arrest Warrant replaced long extradition procedures and enables the UK to extradite criminals wanted in other EU countries, and brings to justice criminals wanted in the UK who are hiding in other EU countries – and accept corpus juris?

 

Eurojust helps UK authorities work with other EU countries’ to tackle international organised crime such as drug smuggling and money laundering – EU not necessary for this.

 

Cross country coordination and crime fighting – EU not necessary for this.

 

The EU has helped secure peace among previously warring western European nations over the last 70 years – EU not the major reason, the US and NATO is.

 

It helped to consolidate democracy in Spain, Portugal, Greece and former Soviet bloc countries – and the Euro destroyed their economies!

 

EU has helped preserve peace in the Balkans since the end of the Balkans War – EU not the major reason, the US and NATO is. In fact the EU messed it up initially!

 

With the UN it now plays a leading role in conflict prevention, peacekeeping and democracy building – a leading role/ hmm?

 

71% of CBI members say EU has overall positive impact on their businesses – OK.

 

67% of SMEs say EU has overall positive impact on their businesses – not sure where that came from? Endless EU regulations only favour large multi-national corporations. Disagree.

 

CBI estimates NET annual benefit of 62B to 78B GBP per annum due to EU membership (4% - 5% of GDP) – CBI estimates have been rather erroneous.

 

44.6 of exports and 53.2% of imports are EU – how much that would change will depend on the result of the leaving negotiations – would you like your eggs boiled hard or soft chaps??

  

EU exports estimated by CEBR to contribute 187B to UK economy rising to 277B by 2030 – how much that would change will depend on the leaving negotiations. Nobody knows yet.

 

CEBR claims access to European energy, transport and digital service markets, combined with new global trade deals, could add £58 billion to the UK economy every year by 2030 – ditto.

 

FDI. American and Asian firms build factories in Britain because it is in the single market – ditto.

 

The EU has taken on multinational giants like Microsoft, Samsung and Toshiba for unfair competition. The UK would not be able to do this alone – if legally, why not?

 

Common rules for the common market make it unnecessary to have 28 sets of national regulations. CE and IEC have proved much more beneficial that the old kite mark – one set of rules does not necessarily benefit individual nations. The EU is not necessary for this to happen.

 

 

 

Robin Niblett, Director of think-tank Chatham House, stated in a report published last year: “For a mid-sized country like the UK, which will never again be economically dominant either globally or regionally, and whose diplomatic and military resources are declining in relative terms, being a major player in a strong regional institution can offer a critical lever for international influence – the little influence over the German-dominated EU will reduce even more if we stay in.

 

As 28 democracies, and as the world’s biggest market, we are strong when we work together. Britain is represented in many international organisations in joint EU delegations – giving Britain more influence than it would have alone. The EU has played a major role in climate, world trade and development - ditto.

 

Barack Obama briefly alluded to the importance of the UK’s role in Europe in an interview with the BBC last year, in which he stated: “[Having the UK in the European Union] gives us much greater confidence about the strength of the transatlantic union and is part of the cornerstone of institutions built after [the] second world war that has made the world safer and more prosperous – I think we can scrub this one now!

 

European Commission President Jose Manuel Barroso argued in 2014: “The largest, proudest European nation cannot hope to shape globalisation – or even retain marginal relevance - by itself. It is only together that we have the weight to influence the big picture.” – I think this or a similar line was the main thrust of the remain argument!

The EU will remain too disjointed to accomplish big things, too many different intersts.

 

Through commonly agreed EU standards, national Governments have achieved improvements to the quality of air, rivers and beaches. Good for Britain and good for Britons holidaying or living abroad! And the UK would not have done this alone by now?

 

The CAP (Common Agricultural Policy) in recent years has concentrated more on the environment and protection of wildlife and habitat. This is doing much to protect and recover the British landscape. Whereas historically, hedgerows were pulled up to create prairie like fields, this has now been reversed to the betterment of all. This is not possible without EU grant to farmers – as far as I read the farmers sat the CAP is a disaster. And it’s our money anyway!

 

The UK is the second largest beneficiary of EU research funds, and the British Government expected future EU research funding to constitute a vital source of income for our world-leading universities and companies – it’s our money anyway!

 

EU regional development funding has been a major boon for UK regions such as Cornwall, Wales and the NE – it’s our money anyway!

 

Now some will disagree with many of these points! – see all above lol!!

 

I doubt you will disagree with all of them though! – one or two were OK.

 

If so, more information here.....

 

 http://johnmccormick.eu/benefits-of-the-european-union/

– ah now I see where you got all this from! Oh well!.

 

Beer O'Clock!

 

Comments like this are a bit naive "this would likely be law in the UK by now anyway."  but these 2 are just misguided.

 

3M British jobs linked to exports to EU – so if the UK was not in the EU there would be no jobs associated with Europe???

67% of SMEs say EU has overall positive impact on their businesses – not sure where that came from? Endless EU regulations only favour large multi-national corporations. Disagree.

 

Of course there will be jobs associated with Europe, there always has been. What many refuse to acknowledge is the benefit that came from the single market. When it was introduced it opened the door to many SME's that were not prepared to put up with the paperwork hassle of the previous customs regulations. This easier access to Europe increased exports and increased jobs, jobs that are now at risk with a return to customs regulations. We can only hope that companies will take the regulations on board rather than throw in the towel and downsize.

 

I was exporting to Europe before the single market and have personally taken goods from the UK to a customer in France and you can take it from me that the paperwork was no mean feat. had to visit 3 different offices in Dover.

 

[RuamRudy]

9 hours ago, Flustered said:

I never understood why it is OK to be a lefty activst hell bent on bringing down the Government of the day but if you feel pride n your country and stand up for it against those who run it down, you are considered racist, homophobic, ageist and shouted down at every opportunity by those on the left.

 

Not saying this is you Rudy, but you opened the door with your BritNats dig. There isn't even a definition of a BritNat.

I agree that there is absolutely nothing wrong with having pride in your country, nor how you choose to define your country. The term BritNats was not devised, to my understanding, simply to deride someone who is a British patriot. Rather, it is used to identify those who use toxic unpleasantries as a means of diminishing their political oponents. For example, look through any Scottish thread on TV and you will see many of our regular friends falling over themselves to trot out the same inane insults about the SNP leadership over and over, primarily focusing on Sturgeon's physical appearance; all done, no doubt, to try to paint her and her party as not worthy of respect, and therefore not worthy of yours or my vote.  

 

Take a little look north of the border and you will, over the past week, a series of newly elected Conservative councillors' odious twitter histories being exposed - the racist, sexist, homophobic accusations you refer to above are all borne out by these people's post history, hence the natural move for nationalists to point out their inherent unpleasantness.

[nontabury]

23 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

I agree that there is absolutely nothing wrong with having pride in your country, nor how you choose to define your country. The term BritNats was not devised, to my understanding, simply to deride someone who is a British patriot. Rather, it is used to identify those who use toxic unpleasantries as a means of diminishing their political oponents. For example, look through any Scottish thread on TV and you will see many of our regular friends falling over themselves to trot out the same inane insults about the SNP leadership over and over, primarily focusing on Sturgeon's physical appearance; all done, no doubt, to try to paint her and her party as not worthy of respect, and therefore not worthy of yours or my vote.  

 

Take a little look north of the border and you will, over the past week, a series of newly elected Conservative councillors' odious twitter histories being exposed - the racist, sexist, homophobic accusations you refer to above are all borne out by these people's post history, hence the natural move for nationalists to point out their inherent unpleasantness.

 

 I would agree, nobody should remarks on the physical appearance of either N.S or A.S. It's irrelevant,especially when it's so mush easier to criticize their political policies.

Anyhow,your always complaining about me posting, cartoons etc, making fun of your hero's. So to make amends, here is a poster supporting the SNP.

 

 

 

[nauseus]

18 minutes ago, sandyf said:

Comments like this are a bit naive "this would likely be law in the UK by now anyway."  but these 2 are just misguided.

 

3M British jobs linked to exports to EU – so if the UK was not in the EU there would be no jobs associated with Europe???

67% of SMEs say EU has overall positive impact on their businesses – not sure where that came from? Endless EU regulations only favour large multi-national corporations. Disagree.

 

Of course there will be jobs associated with Europe, there always has been. What many refuse to acknowledge is the benefit that came from the single market. When it was introduced it opened the door to many SME's that were not prepared to put up with the paperwork hassle of the previous customs regulations. This easier access to Europe increased exports and increased jobs, jobs that are now at risk with a return to customs regulations. We can only hope that companies will take the regulations on board rather than throw in the towel and downsize.

 

I was exporting to Europe before the single market and have personally taken goods from the UK to a customer in France and you can take it from me that the paperwork was no mean feat. had to visit 3 different offices in Dover.

 

If you look closer you will see that I did not say that the single market was not beneficial. But EU red tape, and the cost of it, can be the difference between profit and loss, expansion and job creation for small British firms, particularly non-exporting ones.

[ilostmypassword]

6 minutes ago, nauseus said:

If you look closer you will see that I did not say that the single market was not beneficial. But EU red tape, and the cost of it, can be the difference between profit and loss, expansion and job creation for small British firms, particularly non-exporting ones.

So you believe that the UK being treated as a nation outside the EU will actually lessen the red tape for exporters to the EU?

[nauseus]

Just now, ilostmypassword said:

So you believe that the UK being treated as a nation outside the EU will actually lessen the red tape for exporters to the EU?

Er...no.....another misinterpretation of what I have said. But it's OK, I understand!

[RuamRudy]

14 minutes ago, nontabury said:

 

 I would agree, nobody should remarks on the physical appearance of either N.S or A.S. It's irrelevant,especially when it's so mush easier to criticize their political policies.

Anyhow,your always complaining about me posting, cartoons etc, making fun of your hero's. So to make amends, here is a poster supporting the SNP.

 

 

 

 

I think that the fact that they have won an unprecedented run of elections with thumping majorities, and that they still dominate the polls suggests that most people recognise that the SNP has delivered on their promises.

 

Whether you or your FB firends like it or not, life in Scotland under an SNP government is better, it would seem, than it was when Holyrood was controlled by labour, or when Scotland was run from Westminster.

[dick dasterdly]

19 hours ago, nauseus said:

Hello Grouse,

 

I asked for help but finally found this myself. I have chosen blue for my replies and I had a new set of crayons for my birthday!

 

Overall, the importance of your points do not outweigh the importance of respecting the constitution of the UK, retaining sovereignty and controlling law-making. I suspect that many of the plus points listed would either exist, or be attainable, with or without the EU.  

 

= = = 

 

What did the EU ever do for us?

 

Here's 42 points to start with

 

These are other people’s ideas that I happen to agree with

 

Regret cannot use colour; you'll just have to muddle through....(Those crayons were expensive too - made in Germany!)

 

Freedom to live, work, retire anywhere in Europe – plenty of people doing this pre EU, perhaps not as freely though.

 

1.4 million British people live abroad in the EU – convenient but not critically important to the UK itself.

 

More than 14,500 UK students took part in the European Union’s Erasmus student exchange scheme in 2012-13 – nice but not critical.

 

3M British jobs linked to exports to EU – so if the UK was not in the EU there would be no jobs associated with Europe???

 

Stability for 476,000 British farmers – majority of British farmers voted out.

 

Equal pay for men and women is enshrined in EU law, as are bans on discrimination by age, race or sexual orientation. This benefits Britain and British people who live in other EU countries - this would likely be law in the UK by now anyway.

 

Workers' protection greatly enhanced in terms of safety, security, working hours, breaks, leave etc - this would likely be law in the UK by now anyway.

 

Ease of vacations 31M visits to EU countries in 2014 – nice but not critical.

 

Protection against black listed airlines - this would likely be law in the UK by now anyway.

 

When visiting EU countries, UK citizens have the right to emergency health care – nice but not critical.

 

Consular protection in the absence of a UK Embassy – nice but not critical.

 

Consumer protection – quality and safety of products bought anywhere in EU - this would likely be law in the UK by now anyway.

 

2-year protection by guarantee against faulty goods – ditto (above).

 

Roaming rates rip offs stopped - this would likely be law in the UK by now anyway.

 

Lower credit card fees – nice but not critical.

 

Cheaper flights – gimme a break.

 

Proper compensation when flights are delayed or cancelled – ditto.

 

Enhanced protection from terrorism, trafficking, paedophiles, cyber crime – look at the explosion in rape crime in northern Europe after Merkel opened the doors! Ditto above!

 

The European Arrest Warrant replaced long extradition procedures and enables the UK to extradite criminals wanted in other EU countries, and brings to justice criminals wanted in the UK who are hiding in other EU countries – and accept corpus juris?

 

Eurojust helps UK authorities work with other EU countries’ to tackle international organised crime such as drug smuggling and money laundering – EU not necessary for this.

 

Cross country coordination and crime fighting – EU not necessary for this.

 

The EU has helped secure peace among previously warring western European nations over the last 70 years – EU not the major reason, the US and NATO is.

 

It helped to consolidate democracy in Spain, Portugal, Greece and former Soviet bloc countries – and the Euro destroyed their economies!

 

EU has helped preserve peace in the Balkans since the end of the Balkans War – EU not the major reason, the US and NATO is. In fact the EU messed it up initially!

 

With the UN it now plays a leading role in conflict prevention, peacekeeping and democracy building – a leading role/ hmm?

 

71% of CBI members say EU has overall positive impact on their businesses – OK.

 

67% of SMEs say EU has overall positive impact on their businesses – not sure where that came from? Endless EU regulations only favour large multi-national corporations. Disagree.

 

CBI estimates NET annual benefit of 62B to 78B GBP per annum due to EU membership (4% - 5% of GDP) – CBI estimates have been rather erroneous.

 

44.6 of exports and 53.2% of imports are EU – how much that would change will depend on the result of the leaving negotiations – would you like your eggs boiled hard or soft chaps??

  

EU exports estimated by CEBR to contribute 187B to UK economy rising to 277B by 2030 – how much that would change will depend on the leaving negotiations. Nobody knows yet.

 

CEBR claims access to European energy, transport and digital service markets, combined with new global trade deals, could add £58 billion to the UK economy every year by 2030 – ditto.

 

FDI. American and Asian firms build factories in Britain because it is in the single market – ditto.

 

The EU has taken on multinational giants like Microsoft, Samsung and Toshiba for unfair competition. The UK would not be able to do this alone – if legally, why not?

 

Common rules for the common market make it unnecessary to have 28 sets of national regulations. CE and IEC have proved much more beneficial that the old kite mark – one set of rules does not necessarily benefit individual nations. The EU is not necessary for this to happen.

 

 

 

Robin Niblett, Director of think-tank Chatham House, stated in a report published last year: “For a mid-sized country like the UK, which will never again be economically dominant either globally or regionally, and whose diplomatic and military resources are declining in relative terms, being a major player in a strong regional institution can offer a critical lever for international influence – the little influence over the German-dominated EU will reduce even more if we stay in.

 

As 28 democracies, and as the world’s biggest market, we are strong when we work together. Britain is represented in many international organisations in joint EU delegations – giving Britain more influence than it would have alone. The EU has played a major role in climate, world trade and development - ditto.

 

Barack Obama briefly alluded to the importance of the UK’s role in Europe in an interview with the BBC last year, in which he stated: “[Having the UK in the European Union] gives us much greater confidence about the strength of the transatlantic union and is part of the cornerstone of institutions built after [the] second world war that has made the world safer and more prosperous – I think we can scrub this one now!

 

European Commission President Jose Manuel Barroso argued in 2014: “The largest, proudest European nation cannot hope to shape globalisation – or even retain marginal relevance - by itself. It is only together that we have the weight to influence the big picture.” – I think this or a similar line was the main thrust of the remain argument!

The EU will remain too disjointed to accomplish big things, too many different intersts.

 

Through commonly agreed EU standards, national Governments have achieved improvements to the quality of air, rivers and beaches. Good for Britain and good for Britons holidaying or living abroad! And the UK would not have done this alone by now?

 

The CAP (Common Agricultural Policy) in recent years has concentrated more on the environment and protection of wildlife and habitat. This is doing much to protect and recover the British landscape. Whereas historically, hedgerows were pulled up to create prairie like fields, this has now been reversed to the betterment of all. This is not possible without EU grant to farmers – as far as I read the farmers sat the CAP is a disaster. And it’s our money anyway!

 

The UK is the second largest beneficiary of EU research funds, and the British Government expected future EU research funding to constitute a vital source of income for our world-leading universities and companies – it’s our money anyway!

 

EU regional development funding has been a major boon for UK regions such as Cornwall, Wales and the NE – it’s our money anyway!

 

Now some will disagree with many of these points! – see all above lol!!

 

I doubt you will disagree with all of them though! – one or two were OK.

 

If so, more information here.....

 

 http://johnmccormick.eu/benefits-of-the-european-union/

– ah now I see where you got all this from! Oh well!.

 

Beer O'Clock!

 

More than anything I'm impressed by your stamina!

 

I started reading the list with interest (agreeing with a few points disagreeing with others), intending to respond - but as the list continued, gradually realised that it would take (me...) hours to reply properly - and I couldn't be bothered.  (embarrassed emoticon)

[Flustered]

2 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

I think that the fact that they have won an unprecedented run of elections with thumping majorities, and that they still dominate the polls suggests that most people recognise that the SNP has delivered on their promises.

 

Whether you or your FB firends like it or not, life in Scotland under an SNP government is better, it would seem, than it was when Holyrood was controlled by labour, or when Scotland was run from Westminster.

Then wakes up realising it was all a dream.........

[Flustered]

28 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

More than anything I'm impressed by your stamina!

 

I started reading the list with interest (agreeing with a few points disagreeing with others), intending to respond - but as the list continued, gradually realised that it would take (me...) hours to reply properly - and I couldn't be bothered.  (embarrassed emoticon)

Luckily, thanks to the medication I am am on I lost concentration after the first 5 or 6 lines.

 

What do they say...KISS

[nontabury]

34 minutes ago, Flustered said:

Then wakes up realising it was all a dream.........

Should' that be a nightmare. Especially for the Scottish children,whose education has been dumbed down by the SNP.   Now many Scots are  saying enough is enough.

 

 

Edited May 15, 2017 by nontabury

[sandyf]

3 hours ago, nauseus said:

If you look closer you will see that I did not say that the single market was not beneficial. But EU red tape, and the cost of it, can be the difference between profit and loss, expansion and job creation for small British firms, particularly non-exporting ones.

Sorry, i missed the bit where you said the single market was beneficial to UK business.

 

This "EU red tape" as you call it may well have a cost but generally there is a perfectly valid reason, which normally escapes most.

I had the unenviable task of implementing an EU directive in a company where profit was more important than consumer safety, which had initiated the directive in the first place. I came under pressure to try and find ways to circumvent the directive and left the company in the end as I wasn't comfortable being party to illegal activity.

The EU were blamed by everyone for pushing prices up, it would appear that Joe Public is quite happy buying dodgy gear as long as it is someone else that gets hurt.

EU legislation is supposed to be written into UK law so there there will be no savings to business with respect to "EU red tape", unless of course you believe that the government speak with fork tongue and intend to turn the clock back on consumer safety and workers rights.

[RuamRudy]

27 minutes ago, nontabury said:

Should' that be a nightmare. Especially for the Scottish children,whose education has been dumbed down by the SNP.   Now many Scots are  saying enough is enough.

 

 

 

I really dislike this type of debate where we end up saying that your bad situation is worse than our bad situation, but when lies and misinformation is spread in this manner by a ruthless party, intent on gaining votes no matter how underhand (see RD's recent, unashamed courting of the sectarian bigots that blight Scotland, for example), it should be addressed head on.

 

Do One In Five Scots Children Leave Primary School 'Functionally Illiterate'?

Students in England 'are the most illiterate in the developed world'

 

So is it like the NHS, where we hear the Scottish branch of the UK Tories go on and on about problems with NHS Scotland, while totally ignoring the fact that Scottish NHS performance is head and shoulders above the rest of the UK? I strongly suspect that there is a lot of truth in that.

[dick dasterdly]

Probably better to resurrect a thread on the Scotland 'issue', rather than using this thread?

[nauseus]

21 minutes ago, sandyf said:

Sorry, i missed the bit where you said the single market was beneficial to UK business.

 

This "EU red tape" as you call it may well have a cost but generally there is a perfectly valid reason, which normally escapes most.

I had the unenviable task of implementing an EU directive in a company where profit was more important than consumer safety, which had initiated the directive in the first place. I came under pressure to try and find ways to circumvent the directive and left the company in the end as I wasn't comfortable being party to illegal activity.

The EU were blamed by everyone for pushing prices up, it would appear that Joe Public is quite happy buying dodgy gear as long as it is someone else that gets hurt.

EU legislation is supposed to be written into UK law so there there will be no savings to business with respect to "EU red tape", unless of course you believe that the government speak with fork tongue and intend to turn the clock back on consumer safety and workers rights.

I understand the benefits of employee and customer protection and I, too, have personally experienced the pressure of companies wanting to shortcut similar rules. The Health and Safety Executive will continue to improve workers safety and welfare and I don't think the the UK Consumer Protection Association would be happy if any future government tries to scrap the existing important rules and the The Consumer Rights Act.  

 

Businesses will usually try to use any reason to bump up prices but it seems to me that excessive EU regulation in a lot areas has made it very difficult for UK SME businesses to be profitable and survive. I believe that many of the ill-conceived regulations could be removed over time with due consideration and without really hurting consumers or employees.  

[Flustered]

@RuamRudy

 

Ruby,

 

No one can criticise you for your patriotic feelings towards Scotland but I have a very serious question for you.

 

As the break up of the Union would affect all of the United Kingdom, do you think we should all have a vote in a referendum or just the Scottish. Not a trick question, just trying to see all of the angles.

[Basil B]

9 minutes ago, Flustered said:

@RuamRudy

 

Ruby,

 

No one can criticise you for your patriotic feelings towards Scotland but I have a very serious question for you.

 

As the break up of the Union would affect all of the United Kingdom, do you think we should all have a vote in a referendum or just the Scottish. Not a trick question, just trying to see all of the angles.

More chance of Ruby getting his way if were all...

[Grouse]

5 hours ago, Flustered said:

Luckily, thanks to the medication I am am on I lost concentration after the first 5 or 6 lines.

 

What do they say...KISS

I did try to Keep It Simple

 

Shall I post the next 42 or not?

 

You do realise why there are 42?

[Flustered]

2 minutes ago, Grouse said:

 

You do realise why there are 42?

Even in my dotage, I am not illiterate. 555

[RuamRudy]

1 hour ago, Flustered said:

@RuamRudy

 

Ruby,

 

No one can criticise you for your patriotic feelings towards Scotland but I have a very serious question for you.

 

As the break up of the Union would affect all of the United Kingdom, do you think we should all have a vote in a referendum or just the Scottish. Not a trick question, just trying to see all of the angles.

Was the wider EU given the opportunity to vote on whether the UK should be allowed to enact Brexit and bring a mountain of uncertainty to the remaining 27 countries?

 

I appreciate that there would be repercussions for the other members of the union, but I do not see those as being reason not to push for something I consider to be better for all parties. But let's be realistic - not very much will change at a every day level. Of course all the reserved powers will transfer north and our government will have full control over how the country is run; Westminster will have obviously less influence over Scotland.

 

But at our level, people on either side of the border will remain friends and continue to exchange calls, cards and visits. Commerce and support will continue to flow in both directions; Scotland will remain a dependable ally and partner to rUK.

Edited May 15, 2017 by RuamRudy

[Flustered]

First apologies, I miss typed Ruby instead of Rudy....Not deliberate I assure you.

 

Second, the EU is not a Union of States (yet) so it is an entirely different situation.

 

So was your answer a Yes or a No?

[RuamRudy]

1 minute ago, Flustered said:

First apologies, I miss typed Ruby instead of Rudy....Not deliberate I assure you.

 

Second, the EU is not a Union of States (yet) so it is an entirely different situation.

 

So was your answer a Yes or a No?

 

No apology needed as no offence taken.

 

My answer is no, it should not be open to a UK wide plebiscite. Much as a divorce does not require the consent of both parties, I do not accept that rUK should hold the fate of Scotland in its hands. A bit of a stretch to imagine, I know, but if there was 100% support in Scotland for independence, and this was subsequently vetoed by rUK, would this be (a) fair; (b) viable?

[ilostmypassword]

1 minute ago, RuamRudy said:

 

No apology needed as no offence taken.

 

My answer is no, it should not be open to a UK wide plebiscite. Much as a divorce does not require the consent of both parties, I do not accept that rUK should hold the fate of Scotland in its hands. A bit of a stretch to imagine, I know, but if there was 100% support in Scotland for independence, and this was subsequently vetoed by rUK, would this be (a) fair; (b) viable?

And the Northern Irish are going to suffer even more because of Brexit.

[Basil B]

53 minutes ago, Flustered said:

First apologies, I miss typed Ruby instead of Rudy....Not deliberate I assure you.

 

I just copied you... 

 

 

Edited May 15, 2017 by Basil B

[Grouse]

1 hour ago, ilostmypassword said:

And the Northern Irish are going to suffer even more because of Brexit.

Here's something I didn't know: all Northern Irish have or have a right to an Irish passport!

 

So what will this hard border mean exactly?

 

Everybody is walking on eggshells because of the good Friday agreement. 

 

I think thete here will be no border between Northern Ireland and Eire; it would be pointless.

 

Customs will at British ports

 

Overtime, Ireland WILL be united

[sujoop]

 

Thanks for the legacy

Edited May 15, 2017 by sujoop

[sujoop]

 

[Loaded]

3 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

 

No apology needed as no offence taken.

 

My answer is no, it should not be open to a UK wide plebiscite. Much as a divorce does not require the consent of both parties, I do not accept that rUK should hold the fate of Scotland in its hands. A bit of a stretch to imagine, I know, but if there was 100% support in Scotland for independence, and this was subsequently vetoed by rUK, would this be (a) fair; (b) viable?

If you want independence, allow the English to vote. The Scots don't want it.

[mommysboy]

52 minutes ago, sujoop said:

 

Thanks for the legacy

Rather a difference isn't there?  And of course it is the young that have to live longer with the decision.

 

I need to point out that those 18-24 years olds will end up voting the same way as the old uns when their time comes.

[SheungWan]

5 hours ago, Grouse said:

I did try to Keep It Simple

 

Shall I post the next 42 or not?

 

You do realise why there are 42?

Don't ask the forum Brexiteers. They are mostly Vogons.