May ready for tough talks over Brexit

[simoh1490]

5 minutes ago, nontabury said:

True, they will certainly not give us favourable terms, if only to discourage other E.U. Countries. So the U.K will have to make a go of it under WTO rules, remember the world is a big place. As regards the economy and trade, would it not have been better if the Bureaucrats had not interfered with the E.E.C, that we voted for in 1975. It could have been so so different. 

 And as per my earlier post, it’s not only about the money. There are other factors involved, namely accountability to the electorate and Mrs Merkles invitation to the follows of War. 

Let's assume for a moment that we do go in search of new markets outside of the EU. the first point that arises is why should we put ourselves in the position of being unable to trade with our closest neighbours and one of the worlds largest trading blocks, one with whom we share hundreds of years of history and with whom we are aligned culturally, to do that doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

 

 

 

 

[SheungWan]

14 minutes ago, nontabury said:

 Mrs Merkles invitation to the follows of War. 

Something that appears to have been mangled by Babelfish.

[aright]

39 minutes ago, simoh1490 said:

How can you be so confident we will not be ignored by the EU and that partnerships will be rewritten, if you were the EU you wouldn't allow one member to leave and then write them more favourable trade terms after they left, that would simply encourage everyone else to leave! And if those terms are not more favourable, why are we leaving, just to get more expensive terms!

 

BTW if you quote somebody, will you please put it in quotes, that way we can all understand the difference between your statements and your quoted text?

I wasn't quoting Mrs May I was paraphrasing her. The clue is "made it clear" as opposed to "said" 

Unlike you, my degree of confidence in the EU makes no difference to the current situation ;we are leaving the EU. The dye has been cast. I trust and expect Mrs May and the negotiators to get the best deal for the UK. I will leave them to get on with their job without any interference or advice from me..  

 

 

 

 

[ilostmypassword]

2 minutes ago, aright said:

I wasn't quoting Mrs May I was paraphrasing her. The clue is "made it clear" as opposed to "said" 

Unlike you, my degree of confidence in the EU makes no difference to the current situation ;we are leaving the EU. The dye has been cast. I trust and expect Mrs May and the negotiators to get the best deal for the UK. I will leave them to get on with their job without any interference or advice from me..  

 

 

 

 

Well, I'm going to continue advising them and interfering with them on this forum. By the way, do you know what their avatars are? I'd like to send them some PMs.

[ilostmypassword]

19 minutes ago, simoh1490 said:

Let's assume for a moment that we do go in search of new markets outside of the EU. the first point that arises is why should we put ourselves in the position of being unable to trade with our closest neighbours and one of the worlds largest trading blocks, one with whom we share hundreds of years of history and with whom we are aligned culturally, to do that doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

 

 

 

 

As one of the members here observed, that despite what is a universally observed economic phenomenon called gravitation, whereby the further away a country is the less trade it does (in full it's the size of GDP times the inverse of distance) But Brexit, because it's so big, is going to defy this universally observed phenomenon. Like Earth follows the laws of gravitation, but the Sun not so much.

[aright]

Nobody told me we had stopped buying lamb from New Zealand  and wine from Australia.

[simoh1490]

1 hour ago, aright said:

It is a nonsense and fearmongering to suggest when we leave the EU our allies will ignore us and partnerships will not be renewed or rewritten to the benefit of both party's. It's true our needs still need to be satisfied but so do our allies and partners.

18 months ago you had your vote and your side lost but you seem to want to continue having the vote every week. Can you tell us how, since June 2016,  your and other Remainers opinions have changed the direction of travel.  You are riding a horse with no saddle, stirrups or bridle.......no influence on the race and running the wrong way round the track. I have no doubt the Irish problem will be solved to everyone's satisfaction in the next few days .......if it's not I suspect we will leave the table.

At PMQ's yesterday Mrs May made it clear to JC (love his initials) we are leaving the single market and the customs union and negotiations are going well. She said this when handed the baton last year so your carping has not changed anything other than strengthening the hand of the EU Cabal, making negotiations more difficult. If you have pride in your country you would get on board. No one is asking you to agree just to support the process to get the best deal as mandated  Do you really want to be responsible, in part, for a less than good deal for 60 million Brits.

 

I have to respond to the second part of what you wrote: it's really not true to say that we're looking to have another vote every week. My basic premise is that the population was not sufficiently informed nor prepared to manage a vote of that significance, at the time and there is volumes of anecdotal information to confirm that by way of opinion polls and the like. I personally would like to have seen the population briefed more completely, that way I could have more confidence that the voting outcome was representative of what the people really want and is not merely an outcome that has been opportunistically hijacked by a few, some of whom voted for Brexit for all the wrong reasons.

 

You talk about my pride in country and attempt to drown me in personal guilt by suggesting my view on this subject might be responsible for a poor outcome - neither of those lines really have any impact I'm afraid. I'm very comfortable in the pride and loyalty aspects having previously served in my country's armed forces and now voting and acting with my brain rather than my emotions and the foolhardy notion that everything might be all right on the day, if we keep saying it will!

[nontabury]

4 minutes ago, simoh1490 said:

I have to respond to the second part of what you wrote: it's really not true to say that we're looking to have another vote every week. My basic premise is that the population was not sufficiently informed nor prepared to manage a vote of that significance, at the time and there is volumes of anecdotal information to confirm that by way of opinion polls and the like. I personally would like to have seen the population briefed more completely, that way I could have more confidence that the voting outcome was representative of what the people really want and is not merely an outcome that has been opportunistically hijacked by a few, some of whom voted for Brexit for all the wrong reasons.

 

You talk about my pride in country and attempt to drown me in personal guilt by suggesting my view on this subject might be responsible for a poor outcome - neither of those lines really have any impact I'm afraid. I'm very comfortable in the pride and loyalty aspects having previously served in my country's armed forces and now voting and acting with my brain rather than my emotions and the foolhardy notion that everything might be all right on the day, if we keep saying it will!

It’s a pity the country was not made fully aware of the intentions, of devious politicians and big business in 1975. We voted to join a trading block, not an undemocratic federation.

 

 

Edited December 7, 2017 by nontabury

[simoh1490]

Just now, nontabury said:

It’s a pity the country was not made aware of the intentions, of devious politicians and big business in 1975. We voted to join a trading block, not an undemocratic federation.

Two wrongs don't make a right

[nontabury]

2 minutes ago, simoh1490 said:

Two wrongs don't make a right

Fool to once,shame on you; fool me twice,shame on me.

[simoh1490]

6 minutes ago, nontabury said:

Fool to once,shame on you; fool me twice,shame on me.

That's the way the pickle squirts. 

[SheungWan]

57 minutes ago, aright said:

The dye has been cast.

Hard Brexit. Tie-dye mess.

Edited December 7, 2017 by SheungWan

[SheungWan]

From Bloomberg Brexit:

David Davis on Brexit studies:

December 2016 - officials "carrying out about 57 sets of analyses"

October 2017 - the work contains "excruciating detail"

December 2017 - "there are no systematic impact assessments"

[aright]

29 minutes ago, simoh1490 said:

 

 

You talk about my pride in country and attempt to drown me in personal guilt by suggesting my view on this subject might be responsible for a poor outcome - neither of those lines really have any impact I'm afraid. I'm very comfortable in the pride and loyalty aspects having previously served in my country's armed forces and now voting and acting with my brain rather than my emotions and the foolhardy notion that everything might be all right on the day, if we keep saying it will!

This is not about guilt or innocence the point is it's time to turn a page.

You aren't paying attention are you? On post 11518 I said "No one is asking you to agree, just to support the process to get the best deal as mandated." If you can't agree to support the process I have to conclude you will be happy to accept a poor deal for the UK.

With the greatest of respect if you cannot accept we are leaving the EU you are delusional, if you think your constant disagreement with the Government and Leavers will produce an exit or a status quo outcome more to your liking you are both delusional and emotional. 

I have no more to say.

 

[metisdead]

A post containing a misquoted post has been removed as well as a reply. 

[Grouse]

5 hours ago, SheungWan said:

If you want to open a separate thread on the use of the defence budget please do, but the fact remains that the proportion of government monies committed to the defence budget have resolutely declined for over 50 years and nothing to do with Brexit. As for the nonsense re TSR2 that preceded entry to the EU so again in the bin. It appears to be the case that that the Hard Left has its own share of bunkum to line up against the Hard Brexiteers and no need to put up with it just because it sticks an anti-Brexit label on the front.

TSR2 is totally off topic but does serve to remind us that we were once at the leading edge of aeronautical engineering. The Comet 4b, English Electric Lightning, Victor, Vulcan, Harrier, Concorde, and TSR2. Typhoon is world class but I'm not sure we could have done it ourselves!

 

Ironically, Brenda handed over HMS Queen Elizabeth today. Complete with white dusters but no aircraft! 

[SheungWan]

34 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

From Bloomberg Brexit:

David Davis on Brexit studies:

December 2016 - officials "carrying out about 57 sets of analyses"

October 2017 - the work contains "excruciating detail"

December 2017 - "there are no systematic impact assessments"

How much does it cost to leave the EU's customs union? Britain doesn't know:  bloom.bg/2kuD9AM

Edited December 7, 2017 by SheungWan

[simoh1490]

30 minutes ago, aright said:

This is not about guilt or innocence the point is it's time to turn a page.

You aren't paying attention are you? On post 11518 I said "No one is asking you to agree, just to support the process to get the best deal as mandated." If you can't agree to support the process I have to conclude you will be happy to accept a poor deal for the UK.

With the greatest of respect if you cannot accept we are leaving the EU you are delusional, if you think your constant disagreement with the Government and Leavers will produce an exit or a status quo outcome more to your liking you are both delusional and emotional. 

I have no more to say.

 

Prefacing an insult with the words, "with the greatest respect" does not negate the insult, nor does it make you any more right! And attacking the poster, rather than the topic, doesn't make you more right either!! 

 

Now.......do you wish to continue with the insults and personal attacks or do you wish to discuss Brexit, if the former, the solution is simple?

 

[Grouse]

1 hour ago, aright said:

Nobody told me we had stopped buying lamb from New Zealand  and wine from Australia.

Why don't you buy British lamb and English wine. You should support our country. Shameful!

[aright]

16 minutes ago, simoh1490 said:

Prefacing an insult with the words, "with the greatest respect" does not negate the insult, nor does it make you any more right! And attacking the poster, rather than the topic, doesn't make you more right either!! 

 

Now.......do you wish to continue with the insults and personal attacks or do you wish to discuss Brexit, if the former, the solution is simple?

 

This is the biggest over reaction I have ever seen on this forum. Insulting members is not my style  Delusional and emotional are everyday terms. Stop being oversensitive....whoops have I insulted again?

As for discussing Brexit as I said I have no more to say but feel free to have the last word I know you want to.

[tomacht8]

1 hour ago, SheungWan said:

From Bloomberg Brexit:

David Davis on Brexit studies:

December 2016 - officials "carrying out about 57 sets of analyses"

October 2017 - the work contains "excruciating detail"

December 2017 - "there are no systematic impact assessments"

"It is unbelievable that these long-trumpeted impact assessments don't even exist, meaning the government has no idea what their Brexit plans will do to the country."

 

That's scary. Same as someone distribute packs of razor blades in a kindergarten and give the children to play.

Edited December 7, 2017 by tomacht8

[aright]

33 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Why don't you buy British lamb and English wine. You should support our country. Shameful!

Where did I say I didn't.

I support my country in the best possible way....I live here.

Being Welsh I enjoy my country's lamb and regard it as the best in the world however not easy to get in England. In fact British lamb is an expensive treat a lot of it going to China.

As for wine I enjoy Denbies Bacchus Sauvignon Blanc 2014 it has great herbaceous notes of good length not that you would understand that.

Of course we should continue to import lamb from NZ and wine from Australia. We owe it to the poor people. 

 

[tomacht8]

41 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

How much does it cost to leave the EU's customs union? Britain doesn't know:  bloom.bg/2kuD9AM

These studies should have been carried out before declaring withdrawal under Article 50.

Now one can see the result, if people only listen to the propagandists.

Were also nice words to get rid of the prison chains, aka shackles of the EU & free trade with the whole world & safe pensions & best free health care &  without foreigners & higher wages & safe country borders.

And 52% believed in the promised miracle.That is not to be surpassed in naivety.

[ilostmypassword]

1 hour ago, aright said:

This is not about guilt or innocence the point is it's time to turn a page.

You aren't paying attention are you? On post 11518 I said "No one is asking you to agree, just to support the process to get the best deal as mandated." If you can't agree to support the process I have to conclude you will be happy to accept a poor deal for the UK.

With the greatest of respect if you cannot accept we are leaving the EU you are delusional, if you think your constant disagreement with the Government and Leavers will produce an exit or a status quo outcome more to your liking you are both delusional and emotional. 

I have no more to say.

 

1 hour ago, simoh1490 said:

Prefacing an insult with the words, "with the greatest respect" does not negate the insult, nor does it make you any more right! And attacking the poster, rather than the topic, doesn't make you more right either!! 

 

Now.......do you wish to continue with the insults and personal attacks or do you wish to discuss Brexit, if the former, the solution is simple?

 

49 minutes ago, aright said:

This is the biggest over reaction I have ever seen on this forum. Insulting members is not my style  Delusional and emotional are everyday terms. Stop being oversensitive....whoops have I insulted again?

As for discussing Brexit as I said I have no more to say but feel free to have the last word I know you want to.

Bizarre. In response to someone pointing out the possiblity that the UK might change it's mind, you, aright  call him delusional and emotional and then claim you're not being insulting. In fact, it's the hallmark of a person who is bereft of solid argument to attack the character of a person rather than the content of his argument. If you had a real argument to offer with facts showing why it can't happen, you would have offered those. But there is no real argument since there is no constitutional reason another referendum couldn't happen again. A recent poll showed that it's less than a point shy shy of a majority of Britons who want to vote on the result of the negotiations. And that the number who don't want that is considerably smaller.

It was you who were being emotional when you made thoseaccusations against simoh1904. As for being delusional, I won't ascribe your imperfect grasp of facts to that condition. But clearly your arguments are irrational.

 

Edited December 7, 2017 by ilostmypassword

[aright]

6 minutes ago, ilostmypassword said:

Bizarre. In response to someone pointing out the possiblity that the UK might change it's mind, you call him delusional and emotional and then claim you're not being insulting. In fact, it's the hallmark of a person who is bereft of solid argument to attack the character of a person rather than the content of his argument. If you had a real argument to offer with facts showing why it can't happen, you would have offered those. But there is no real argument since there is no constitutional reason another referendum couldn't happen again. A recent poll showed that it's less than a point shy shy of a majority of Britons who want to vote on the result of the negotiations. And that the number who don't want that is considerably smaller.

It was you who were being emotional when you made thoseaccusations against simoh1904. As for being delusional, I won't ascribe your imperfect grasp of facts to that condition. But clearly your arguments are irrational.

 

I have presented chapter and verse on the way I view Brexit. The fact that you don't accept it or more likely don't understand it is not my problem but I'm sure your lost for words mate  is glad you are speaking for him. You obviously don't know the difference between insulting someone and describing someone. A good dictionary might help.

[ilostmypassword]

5 minutes ago, aright said:

I have presented chapter and verse on the way I view Brexit. The fact that you don't accept it or more likely don't understand it is not my problem but I'm sure your lost for words mate  is glad you are speaking for him. You obviously don't know the difference between insulting someone and describing someone. A good dictionary might help.

Charcterizing  someone by a word that I've never seen used in any but a pejorative sense(unless you're a clinician.) is ipso facto insulting.  A word can be both descriptive and insulting. It can also be descriptive, insulting, and inaccurate. Congratulations, you managed to do all three at once.

Edited December 7, 2017 by ilostmypassword

[AlexRich]

8 hours ago, simoh1490 said:

I have ample pride in my country, it's for that reason that I voted to Remain in order that it doesn't slide further into the abyss - I'm also painfully aware that economic strength is crucial to its future, much more so than any petty dislike of the EU

 

This quaint idea that the UK is still an empire and is still a main player in the global world is passe at best, we have a great and proud history but that was then and this is now - we need allies, we need partnerships and we need support, that's why we joined in the first place, none of our needs has changed, if anything they've become more acute.

 

BTW sorry to hear you're leaving us, are you missing the weather or is it something to do with economics that's driving you!

The post-referendum sterling plunge helped him on his way ... and much more to come should the “no deal” zealots get their way.

 

The world of today and the future will require more partnerships with neighbours, not less. When you join a trading bloc you accept compromise in return for trading links and added security .. you also avoid destructive wars, with fewer bright eyed young men full of potential having their lives cut short by opponent countries gripped by nationalism. We have our own currency, our own tax rates, and our own legal system. The idea that the EU has somehow wrecked the UK’s ability to make its own decisions is a sad joke, an illusion pedalled by those that hanker for a halcyon period in British history that never existed. In 10 years a big percentage who voted for this will be dead ... indeed, some already are. What a mess they will leave behind.

[Jip99]

44 minutes ago, tomacht8 said:

These studies should have been carried out before declaring withdrawal under Article 50.

Now one can see the result, if people only listen to the propagandists.

Were also nice words to get rid of the prison chains, aka shackles of the EU & free trade with the whole world & safe pensions & best free health care &  without foreigners & higher wages & safe country borders.

And 52% believed in the promised miracle.That is not to be surpassed in naivety.

 

 

These studies should have have been carried out before Cameron announced the referendum!

 

Additionally, your point is irrelevant, as is the naively insult, the cost didn’t matter. I didn’t change my mind about divorcing my first wife just because the settlement wasn’t to my liking.

 

A decision is made and the consequences follow - you then deal with that and develop a prosperous future.

Edited December 7, 2017 by Jip99

[Scott]

Please keep the discussion civil.   You can address the content of the post without making insulting remarks directed at the poster.

 

 

[billd766]

3 hours ago, simoh1490 said:

I have to respond to the second part of what you wrote: it's really not true to say that we're looking to have another vote every week. My basic premise is that the population was not sufficiently informed nor prepared to manage a vote of that significance, at the time and there is volumes of anecdotal information to confirm that by way of opinion polls and the like. I personally would like to have seen the population briefed more completely, that way I could have more confidence that the voting outcome was representative of what the people really want and is not merely an outcome that has been opportunistically hijacked by a few, some of whom voted for Brexit for all the wrong reasons.

 

You talk about my pride in country and attempt to drown me in personal guilt by suggesting my view on this subject might be responsible for a poor outcome - neither of those lines really have any impact I'm afraid. I'm very comfortable in the pride and loyalty aspects having previously served in my country's armed forces and now voting and acting with my brain rather than my emotions and the foolhardy notion that everything might be all right on the day, if we keep saying it will!

 

Well I also served with the RAF for 25 years and I was one that voted in favour of the EEC.

 

I also voted and acted with my brain and voted for Brexit and if another referendum comes along I will do the same.

 

Was it a foolhardy notion to join the EEC which eventually turned into the EU?

 

In retrospect some 40 years later IMHO I think it was.

 

Do I think that Brexit is a foolish notion now?

 

No I don't but ask me in another 40 years and I might, or might not agree with you.