Scotland's Sturgeon says: I can win an independence vote

[RuamRudy]

17 minutes ago, nontabury said:

Easy for them to support, as they'll never gain power in the UK. As for Scotland, well if Scotland ever becomes seperated, I' m sure the SNP will then spend even more money,the problem is, where will the money come from.

 

 

I think you should probably worry more about precarious financial position that England will possibly find itself in post independence. But don't fret, we are a generous lot, us Scots. We will send you food aid - although, as has been mentioned by others on TVF, we produce nothing but deep fried mars bars and haggis, but beggars can't be choosers, as they say.

[Flustered]

I find it hard to understand why so many Scots are suicidal with the future of their country.

 

Scotland would descend into the dark ages if it had to go it alone. The likes of Alex Salmond and Mary Doll running the economy is just too extreme to imagine.

 

Don't forget that to balance the budget in the days when oil was nearly $100 per barrel, Mr Salmond said that once they had got rid of the submarine bases, they would drill for oil there instead, thus raising Scotland's income. Hilarious. And then for a country that wants nothing to do with nuclear weapons, he would rely on NATO to defend them....A joke, right?

 

The United Kingdom is one of those rarities where the whole actually is greater than the sum of the parts.

[RuamRudy]

1 minute ago, Flustered said:

Scotland would descend into the dark ages if it had to go it alone. The likes of Alex Salmond and Mary Doll running the economy is just too extreme to imagine.

You love to make these bold predictions of doom, but you have yet to substantiate a single one.

 

2 minutes ago, Flustered said:

Don't forget that to balance the budget in the days when oil was nearly $100 per barrel, Mr Salmond said that once they had got rid of the submarine bases, they would drill for oil there instead, thus raising Scotland's income.

Why is this hilarious? Are you not aware of the Clyde Basin?

 

3 minutes ago, Flustered said:

The United Kingdom is one of those rarities where the whole actually is greater than the sum of the parts.

Well, it isn't too late - if we get an equal seat at the table then great; otherwise I will hope we seek our own, better, way.

[Flustered]

Just now, RuamRudy said:

You love to make these bold predictions of doom, but you have yet to substantiate a single one.

 

Why is this hilarious? Are you not aware of the Clyde Basin?

 

Well, it isn't too late - if we get an equal seat at the table then great; otherwise I will hope we seek our own, better, way.

A prediction can only be proven true once it happens. So roll on independence day for Scotland.

 

Oil is gradually loosing it's value as a world commodity if you had not noticed. Today, Tesla passed Ford on investor value showing that the day of the big combustion engine manufactures is on the decline. Scotland has little else except Scotch to bring in money so I guess it's the begging bowl. Also, Scotland exports 63% of its total to the rest of the UK..

 

http://www.gov.scot/Topics/Statistics/Browse/Economy/Exports/ESSPublication

 

Scotland already have a more than equal seat at Westminster as well as their own Parliament. far more than England have. You really do want the tail to wag the dog.

[RuamRudy]

Just now, Flustered said:

A prediction can only be proven true once it happens. So roll on independence day for Scotland.

 

Oil is gradually loosing it's value as a world commodity if you had not noticed. Today, Tesla passed Ford on investor value showing that the day of the big combustion engine manufactures is on the decline. Scotland has little else except Scotch to bring in money so I guess it's the begging bowl. Also, Scotland exports 63% of its total to the rest of the UK..

 

http://www.gov.scot/Topics/Statistics/Browse/Economy/Exports/ESSPublication

 

Scotland already have a more than equal seat at Westminster as well as their own Parliament. far more than England have. You really do want the tail to wag the dog.

OK, good, so when you  wrote, "Scotland would descend into the dark ages if it had to go it alone." you agree that you should have not written it as if it were a fact?

 

Oil has doubled in value over the past couple of years - and consumption is only rising. But of course, at this stage, setting up a petro-economy is precarious. The time to invest the North Sea bounty was 30 years ago, instead of Thatcher's squandering of it. Thankfully, however, we have a very diverse and bouyant non-hydrocarbon economy. As an aside, your comment, "Scotland has little else except Scotch to bring in money so I guess it's the begging bowl" reveals your complete arrogance and your foolish igonorance. It is sad that you know so little about the UK.

 

If Scotland had an equal seat, along with Northern Ireland we would have blocked Brexit. As it is, we are not equal partners - we are, as you so poetically put it, the tail that has to follow the dog, no matter what mound of sh!t the dog chooses to roll in. And we are simply tired of the sh!t that the dog forces us to endure.

[oxo1947]

Scotland's first minister Nicola Sturgeon is to mount a staunch defense of Scottish Independence  later.

 

Of course, the Scottish doctrine of foreign policy is that irrespective of nationality, race or gender, every child has the same rights to sausage, chips and gravy.

[DILLIGAD]

With the recent 'argy Bargy' with the Spanish about Gibraltar why doesn't U.K. Offer the Spaniards Scotland in replacement.

That way, they (the Scots) can then stay in the E.U. And everyone's happy!

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[anon4546543]

3 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

3 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

If Scotland had an equal seat, along with Northern Ireland we would have blocked Brexit. As it is, we are not equal partners - we are, as you so poetically put it, the tail that has to follow the dog, no matter what mound of sh!t the dog chooses to roll in. And we are simply tired of the sh!t that the dog forces us to endure

 

You do not understand democracy. Every one in the UK had the right to vote on Brexit. Previously, everyone in Scotland had the right to leave the UK. Scotland chose to hang onto mothers hem. UK voted to stop supporting the spongers in the EU. What part of this do you not understand? The fact that you continue your rant, when not one person yet knows the outcome of two democratic votes shows just what little you know about democracy and the rights of all individuals, not just you and your erroneous opinions.

[RuamRudy]

21 minutes ago, spiderorchid said:

You do not understand democracy. Every one in the UK had the right to vote on Brexit. Previously, everyone in Scotland had the right to leave the UK. Scotland chose to hang onto mothers hem. UK voted to stop supporting the spongers in the EU. What part of this do you not understand? The fact that you continue your rant, when not one person yet knows the outcome of two democratic votes shows just what little you know about democracy and the rights of all individuals, not just you and your erroneous opinions.

Rants? Not so often from me - although because I do not hold the same belief as the majority of TVF posters when it comes to Scottish Independence, I do end up the brunt of a few. I see plenty upset and anger at us uppity jocks, lots of toys being thrown from prams because we whinging, scrounging idiot, layabout people* refuse to know our place at the rump end of whatever it is you decide for the future of the British Isles. But rants, they are not so frequent from me, although I do admit to going off on one when the nonsense suggestion from we get certain posters who repeatedly deride my country and countrymen then try to suggest that our motives are driven by a hatred of the English. For those rants I offer you or anyone else no apologies.

 

Insulting, ignorant comments such as:

On ‎02‎/‎04‎/‎2017 at 8:11 PM, spiderorchid said:

Yes of course a debt ridden and sponge on the EU (Spain) will welcome a debt ridden and sponge on UK (Scotland).

don't really rile me as they once did. You show so much of yourself in such statements that me ranting would be pointless; you seem the sort of person who isn't really interested in fact if it doesn't suit your preferred narrative.

 

As for democracy - the United Kingdom is a union of countries. If it were a proper and equal union, it would be one country, one vote. As it is, our will is subsumed by the larger country within the union and we required to follow the path chosen by that country, despite it clearly being against the wishes of many in my country. I sincerely do not want that Scottish opinion drives English direction; I would simply like it that Scots get to navigate their own waters rather than being towed by their larger neighbour. 

 

* all terms used by your fellow TVF posters to describe Scots.

Edited April 4, 2017 by RuamRudy

[Flustered]

1 hour ago, RuamRudy said:

 

Oil has doubled in value over the past couple of years - and consumption is only rising. But of course, at this stage, setting up a petro-economy is precarious. The time to invest the North Sea bounty was 30 years ago, instead of Thatcher's squandering of it. Thankfully, however, we have a very diverse and bouyant non-hydrocarbon economy. As an aside, your comment, "Scotland has little else except Scotch to bring in money so I guess it's the begging bowl" reveals your complete arrogance and your foolish igonorance. It is sad that you know so little about the UK.

 

If Scotland had an equal seat, along with Northern Ireland we would have blocked Brexit. As it is, we are not equal partners - we are, as you so poetically put it, the tail that has to follow the dog, no matter what mound of sh!t the dog chooses to roll in. And we are simply tired of the sh!t that the dog forces us to endure.

I am still laughing at the statement "oil has doubled in value over the last few years".

 

And as for it's future, no one seems to think the way Scotland does.

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/06/06/oil-demand-to-peak-in-2030-as-energy-experts-slash-forecasts/

 

 

As for an equal seat, Scotland has more MPs per head of voting population than England as well as it's own Parliament. Since when did any democracy give nearly 4 million people the same voting power as nearly 40 million?

Edited April 4, 2017 by Flustered

[anon4546543]

3 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

As for deomcracy - the United Kingdom is a union of countries. If it were a proper and equal union, it would be one country, one vote.

You still do not understand democracy. In a Union, any Union, the states, countries or self governing Commonwealths are considered separate entities in voting. To do otherwise would make a "Union" meaningless. The total vote was for Brexit and if some of the Scots were too apathetic to vote, well the democratic outcome is what happened. If Scotland had chosen to leave the Union at the vote before, then the outcome would have been different and Scotland could  (perhaps after 10 years or so) have joined other non productive Eu nations. 

Scots chose to stay in the Union because the majority realised that Scotland could not support itself. Scotland as an independent country probably will not be allowed into EU because the few countries that are viable cannot afford to support another country whose only asset would be oil and the companies that own the rights to mine oil are not in fact Scottish. 

[citybiker]

I've still yet to research a credible SNP answer to their fiscal acceptance of the UK upon possibly successful independence.

 

Apologise if previously posted & I've missed it, however SG's Union debt + EU membership fees= electorate pays eventually.

 

So when is the SNP going to be totally transparent with its voter base?

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[nontabury]

11 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

OK, good, so when you  wrote, "Scotland would descend into the dark ages if it had to go it alone." you agree that you should have not written it as if it were a fact?

 

Oil has doubled in value over the past couple of years - and consumption is only rising. But of course, at this stage, setting up a petro-economy is precarious. The time to invest the North Sea bounty was 30 years ago, instead of Thatcher's squandering of it. Thankfully, however, we have a very diverse and bouyant non-hydrocarbon economy. As an aside, your comment, "Scotland has little else except Scotch to bring in money so I guess it's the begging bowl" reveals your complete arrogance and your foolish igonorance. It is sad that you know so little about the UK.

 

If Scotland had an equal seat, along with Northern Ireland we would have blocked Brexit. As it is, we are not equal partners - we are, as you so poetically put it, the tail that has to follow the dog, no matter what mound of sh!t the dog chooses to roll in. And we are simply tired of the sh!t that the dog forces us to endure.

 

O.K.  I'll bite. From where do you get your figures,to back up your statement that the value of oil has doubled over the last two years. The only figures I can come up with confirm that the price is approximately the same as two years ago. Certainly not as high as that just before the 2014 referendums price of 110$.

 

  

 

 Regarding representation,do you honestly expect a region with a population of 5million to be an equal partner to another region of 60 million. Well of course you do. That's why Scotland is already overrepresented in Westminster, even voting on issues that only  effect England. While the Scots have a glorified and expensive council chamber in the Northumbrian city of Edingburgh,that is excluded to non Scots.

 

 

Edited April 5, 2017 by nontabury

[RuamRudy]

11 hours ago, Flustered said:

I am still laughing at the statement "oil has doubled in value over the last few years".

 

 

And as for it's future, no one seems to think the way Scotland does.

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/06/06/oil-demand-to-peak-in-2030-as-energy-experts-slash-forecasts/

 

 

As for an equal seat, Scotland has more MPs per head of voting population than England as well as it's own Parliament. Since when did any democracy give nearly 4 million people the same voting power as nearly 40 million?

The oil price in June 2015 fell to $30 and by the start of 2016 was touching $27. Now it is in the mid 50s - I am not sure why that amuses you.

 

Are the experts now confident about the future oil price? Nobody saw the last crash coming, with oil futures still trading for a period above $100 when the spot price was plunging. What has happened in the past 3 years that gives a high degree of confidence, when such confidence was not there previously?

 

But as I mentioned in my previous post, the volatility of the oil price means that any country that bases its economy solely on hydrocarbons is taking a risky gamble. And, fortunately, Scotland has a very diverse and mature economy.

 

With regards your final statement, I agree with you 100% - as I said, I do not wish that Scottish sentiment be forced upon an unwilling English population. However I also believe that the opposite is no longer acceptable.

 

 

[RuamRudy]

11 hours ago, spiderorchid said:

Scotland as an independent country probably will not be allowed into EU because the few countries that are viable cannot afford to support another country whose only asset would be oil and the companies that own the rights to mine oil are not in fact Scottish. 

I find it sad that you know so little about the British Isles and are, seemingly, not interested in educating yourself about them.

[RuamRudy]

2 hours ago, nontabury said:

O.K.  I'll bite. From where do you get your figures,to back up your statement that the value of oil has doubled over the last two years. The only figures I can come up with confirm that the price is approximately the same as two years ago. Certainly not as high as that just before the 2014 referendums price of 110$.

See my earlier post.

 

2 hours ago, nontabury said:

Regarding representation,do you honestly expect a region with a population of 5million to be an equal partner to another region of 60 million. Well of course you do. That's why Scotland is already overrepresented in Westminster, even voting on issues that only  effect England. While the Scots have a glorified and expensive council chamber in the Northumbrian city of Edingburgh,that is excluded to non Scots.

I expect our views to count. Cleary that cannot be the case when we are so outnumbered, but we are not talking about a small sector of our populaton being out of step with yours. Our cultural, political and economic positions are significantly different to yours. The only solution, as far as I can see, is to allow each country to have full control over all their decision making. As for Holyrood 'exclusions', this photo clearly suggests differently.

 

[DILLIGAD]

The only way each country will have full control of decision making, is by getting out of Europe.

Do Scots trust the circus is Brussels more than those is England?

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[sandyf]

EDM 767 had 28 signatures not 56

 

Early day motion 767 BRITISH OVERSEAS PENSIONS Session: 2015-16 Date tabled: 25.11.2015 Primary sponsor: Monaghan, Paul Sponsors: Kerevan, George Blackford, Ian Meale, Alan Law, Chris Day, Martyn Total number of signatures: 28

 

PS Looks like quote did not work, response to post No 475 where it was said to be 18 out of 56.

Edited April 5, 2017 by sandyf

[transam]

2 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

See my earlier post.

 

I expect our views to count. Cleary that cannot be the case when we are so outnumbered, but we are not talking about a small sector of our populaton being out of step with yours. Our cultural, political and economic positions are significantly different to yours. The only solution, as far as I can see, is to allow each country to have full control over all their decision making. As for Holyrood 'exclusions', this photo clearly suggests differently.

 

What is an English Scot....?

[sandyf]

17 hours ago, nontabury said:

Easy for them to support, as they'll never gain power in the UK. As for Scotland, well if Scotland ever becomes seperated, I' m sure the SNP will then spend even more money,the problem is, where will the money come from.

 

 

You must be in favour of frozen pensions then, otherwise you would appreciate the support.

[RuamRudy]

10 minutes ago, transam said:

What is an English Scot....?

I guess you would need to ask them. My take on it is that they were probably born in England but now reside in Scotland and agree that Scotland would be better off as an independent country.

There is nothing exclusive about the Scottish independence movement. People from all backgrounds are welcome to be part of it.

[7by7]

2 hours ago, sandyf said:

EDM 767 had 28 signatures not 56

 

Early day motion 767 BRITISH OVERSEAS PENSIONS Session: 2015-16 Date tabled: 25.11.2015 Primary sponsor: Monaghan, Paul Sponsors: Kerevan, George Blackford, Ian Meale, Alan Law, Chris Day, Martyn Total number of signatures: 28

 

PS Looks like quote did not work, response to post No 475 where it was said to be 18 out of 56.

 My reference to "18 out of 56" in that post is to the 18 out of the 56 SNP MPs: not 18 out of the 28 MPs who signed the EDM.

 

Something I thought obvious as I quoted you stating that only 28 MPs had signed it!

 

 

[jonwilly]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/04/05/nicola-sturgeon-distracted-independence-figures-reveal-scotland/

 

Look Like England will have to bail out Jockland Again as it did in early 18th C.

 

john

[anon4546543]

14 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

I guess you would need to ask them. My take on it is that they were probably born in England but now reside in Scotland and agree that Scotland would be better off as an independent country.

There is nothing exclusive about the Scottish independence movement. People from all backgrounds are welcome to be part of it.

I think there were about 21"English Scots" in that photo op. A few obese to the left, a few fuglies to the right and a bunch of nerd looking young chaps used as fillers. If that was the base of Independent Scotland, you have failed miserably. But take heart, democracy will take its course, Sturgeon the fish will probably not make it to the market and you can settle petal because, neither you, I nor all the worlds gurus can yet predict an outcome.

[sandyf]

16 hours ago, 7by7 said:

 My reference to "18 out of 56" in that post is to the 18 out of the 56 SNP MPs: not 18 out of the 28 MPs who signed the EDM.

 

Something I thought obvious as I quoted you stating that only 28 MPs had signed it!

 

 

Nothing like ambiguity and distortion to muddy the waters.

Whichever way you slice it, the greatest support for the issue is coming from Scotland, something that many on here should care to remember. Of course the whole issue is irrelevant to those like yourself that live in England so negative comments are to be expected.

[Flustered]

4 hours ago, sandyf said:

Nothing like ambiguity and distortion to muddy the waters.

Whichever way you slice it, the greatest support for the issue is coming from Scotland, something that many on here should care to remember. Of course the whole issue is irrelevant to those like yourself that live in England so negative comments are to be expected.

Please remember Sandy that the general public in Scotland do not have the opportunity to express their views on prime time TV like Mary Doll.

 

The general public are being ignored by the SNP, a fact that will bite them in the bum come election time (both elections).

 

They really need to start addressing local issues and use all of the powers that have been given to them rather than flogging a dead horse (independence).

Edited April 6, 2017 by Flustered

[evadgib]

https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/fullerton-lecture

[7by7]

10 hours ago, sandyf said:

Nothing like ambiguity and distortion to muddy the waters.

 Maybe I should have said "18 SNP MPs out of 56 SNP MPs;" if only to prevent your attempt at point scoring.

 

10 hours ago, sandyf said:

Whichever way you slice it, the greatest support for the issue is coming from Scotland, something that many on here should care to remember.

18 SNP MPs signed the EDM; but what the SNP's actual policy on this matter is I don't know; do you?

 

Of course, if the SNP get their way and Scotland does become an independent nation state, then whatever their policy is it won't effect British expat pensioners.

 

10 hours ago, sandyf said:

Of course the whole issue is irrelevant to those like yourself that live in England so negative comments are to be expected.

Yes, I do live in England; because that is where I work.

 

Of course, you have no idea what my retirement plans are; so I'll tell you.

 

As we own property in Thailand and do intend to retire there, the issue is far from irrelevant to me.

[evadgib]

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-39510351

[RuamRudy]

On ‎06‎/‎04‎/‎2017 at 2:24 AM, jonwilly said:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/04/05/nicola-sturgeon-distracted-independence-figures-reveal-scotland/

 

Look Like England will have to bail out Jockland Again as it did in early 18th C.

 

john

Your understanding of economic data analysis seems a bit junior school there, unless you are suggesting that England is powerehouse of homogenous growth, and that London contributes no more than, say, Toxteth?

 

If ever there was a clear example of why Scotland needs to free itself of the burden of the union, the report you linked to is that.