Scotland's Sturgeon says: I can win an independence vote

[RuamRudy]

17 minutes ago, transam said:

The UK stood bye them....That is my point.....You posted about the UK trashing Scotland...That is complete senescence....

With the exception of oil, the parallels between the Falklands and Scotland are almost non-existant.

 

It is refreshing however, that you comment on the potential of the remaining North Sea oil fields:

2 hours ago, transam said:

SNP,  if there was no oil you would be very quiet,

Many other Yoons are desperate to claim that the North Sea was finished - who hasn't got the memo?

[transam]

7 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

With the exception of oil, the parallels between the Falklands and Scotland are almost non-existant.

 

It is refreshing however, that you comment on the potential of the remaining North Sea oil fields:

Many other Yoons are desperate to claim that the North Sea was finished - who hasn't got the memo?

I reckon you are dodging my comments....Or just fooling around a bit...

[RuamRudy]

2 minutes ago, transam said:

I reckon you are dodging my comments....Or just fooling around a bit...

Which comments? I must admit that senescence was a new word to me (I am guessing that auto correct inserted that for you, or was it just something that went over my head?).

 

If you want me to be cynical, I would suggest that the Falklands are not looked after by the UK government for particularly sentimental reasons. They are strategic in location and in their potential for hydrocarbon extraction. Also, it would be political suicide for any party to cast them adrift when they have repeatedly expressed a desire to remain British. Let's be honest - if we were such a generous nation to our overseas territories, we wouldn't have treated the Chaggos islanders so deplorably.

[DILLIGAD]

The UK stood bye them....That is my point.....You posted about the UK trashing Scotland...That is complete senescence....

It certainly is very sad. Every time I've been to Scotland, I have really enjoyed the country and people.


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[evadgib]

Alex Salmond has predicted Theresa May's position on a second Scottish independence referendum will "crumble".

It follows comments from the UK prime minister that "now is not the time" for another vote to take place.

Speaking on the BBC One's Andrew Marr programme, the former first minister was unwilling to be drawn on whether an advisory referendum should be held.

An advisory referendum could be held without the consent of Mrs May, but would not be binding.

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-39544580

[evadgib]

From the same link;

 

'Recruiting sergeant'

In response to suggestions that the Scottish government could hold an advisory vote, the Scottish Conservatives finance spokesman Murdo Fraser said: "It's deeply ironic that a government which hasn't passed a single substantial bill since the election may prioritise one that isn't competent.

"This isn't the kind of plan any responsible political leader would seek to take, especially over something as serious as a nation's future.

"Less than three years since the last referendum, now is not the time to go back to more division and uncertainty over Scotland's future.

"The first minister must stop the games and begin to act for the whole country, not as a recruiting sergeant for an independence campaign most people don't want."

[RuamRudy]

4 minutes ago, DILLIGAD said:

It certainly is very sad. Every time I've been to Scotland, I have really enjoyed the country and people.


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And we are still the same people and the same country. I am sorry that you and so many others feel that the support of independence is a rejection of you personally - that is not the case whatsoever. Nobody can deny that the UK has achieved some tremendous things in the past, but for many in Scotland they see that they want their future to take a path that the majority of English don't want to take. Surely the sensible thing is to amicably agree to go our separate ways but remain friends?

[transam]

23 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

Which comments? I must admit that senescence was a new word to me (I am guessing that auto correct inserted that for you, or was it just something that went over my head?).

 

If you want me to be cynical, I would suggest that the Falklands are not looked after by the UK government for particularly sentimental reasons. They are strategic in location and in their potential for hydrocarbon extraction. Also, it would be political suicide for any party to cast them adrift when they have repeatedly expressed a desire to remain British. Let's be honest - if we were such a generous nation to our overseas territories, we wouldn't have treated the Chaggos islanders so deplorably.

Were the Falklands folk given the opportunity to vote to remain British......?

[RuamRudy]

7 minutes ago, evadgib said:

From the same link;

 

'Recruiting sergeant'

In response to suggestions that the Scottish government could hold an advisory vote, the Scottish Conservatives finance spokesman Murdo Fraser said: "It's deeply ironic that a government which hasn't passed a single substantial bill since the election may prioritise one that isn't competent.

"This isn't the kind of plan any responsible political leader would seek to take, especially over something as serious as a nation's future.

"Less than three years since the last referendum, now is not the time to go back to more division and uncertainty over Scotland's future.

"The first minister must stop the games and begin to act for the whole country, not as a recruiting sergeant for an independence campaign most people don't want."

 

Murdo Fraser is one of my favourite Twitterers - almost always ready with a witty soundbite and a sharp dig at independence, although he hasn't commented on the Rape Clause at all; very unlike him not to wade into the fray.

 

It could be argued that he knows well what Scots do and do not want. Having stood as constituency candidate in 7 seperate elections and lost every one of them, he certainly knows that he is not wanted.

[RuamRudy]

8 minutes ago, transam said:

Were the Falklands folk given the opportunity to vote to remain British......?

Yes

 

Falkland Islands sovereignty referendum, 2013

[transam]

10 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

And we are still the same people and the same country. I am sorry that you and so many others feel that the support of independence is a rejection of you personally - that is not the case whatsoever. Nobody can deny that the UK has achieved some tremendous things in the past, but for many in Scotland they see that they want their future to take a path that the majority of English don't want to take. Surely the sensible thing is to amicably agree to go our separate ways but remain friends?

You want to go your separate way it seems....Cut off your head to spite your nose....And folk like you will take Scotland to the pits......If Scots wanted out of the union they would have voted that way, they didn't, even with Scot folk canvassing immigrants to vote against Scots..

 

Deplorable actions....

[evadgib]

and they haven't asked for one since 

[7by7]

1 hour ago, RuamRudy said:

Many other Yoons................

 

Yoons; a term used often by Nationalists to describe those who support the Union.

 

A derogatory term, considered by many in Scotland to be offensive.

 

I wonder how those who use the term would feel if Unionists used a similar term to describe them?

 

Sweaty? No, that could mean any Scot of any political persuasion.

 

One term I've seen suggested elsewhere is Natsi

 

Just as Yoon is derived from Unionist, Natsi is derived from Nationalist.

[RuamRudy]

48 minutes ago, transam said:

You want to go your separate way it seems....Cut off your head to spite your nose....And folk like you will take Scotland to the pits

What is the nose in your analogy?  Why would we 'take Scotland to the pits'?

 

51 minutes ago, transam said:

even with Scot folk canvassing immigrants to vote against Scots..

You make an interesting comment. While obviously it will not apply to all, many nationalists subscribe to a notion of civic nationalism, one that is inclusive rather than exclusive. Anyone who resides in Scotland and contributes to its future should be able to vote on that future, regardless of their background. This is obviously all the more important now, seeing as so many immigrants  will now fear for their right to remain.

 

[mommysboy]

I'd say the whole thrust of independence is anti English.  How can a country's consuming thought be joining another union where powers would be even more limited than at present?  This certainly isn't about reclaiming Scottish fishing and agriculture, is it?

 

Sham!

[RuamRudy]

14 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

I'd say the whole thrust of independence is anti English.  How can a country's consuming thought be joining another union where powers would be even more limited than at present?  This certainly isn't about reclaiming Scottish fishing and agriculture, is it?

 

Sham!

You can say that, but I am certain that you will find nothing credible to back your claim up.

 

Why would our powers be more limited than now? That makes no sense whatsoever. Those powers that Westminster currently keeps as reserved will transfer to Edinburgh upon independence. If they are within the UK's competency now, why would they be given up when Scotland joins the EU?

[Flustered]

5 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

The Scottish people voted to remain in Europe.

A great myth. The Scottish people did not vote to stay in Europe. Scotland had no vote on it.

 

A geographical area in the north of the United Kingdom, mainly voted to stay as did other pocket areas of the UK.

 

It was a United Kingdom vote, not a Scottish one.

 

You had a chance of independence and voted against it fully aware that a vote on the EU was coming up. Or are you saying that the Scottish people are so badly educated and ill informed that they did not understand the pros and cons of an EU referendum?

[mommysboy]

Another point that one would hope would be taken board on any further referendi, on any given subject: a narrow win against the status quo is simply not good enough!

 

To take the case of Scotland, the case would not be resolved if 53% voted out.  Large swathes of Scotland are fiercely pro union. There is the very real possibility that a narrow out vote could lead not only to the break up of the UK, but Scotland itself!

 

Unintended consequences and ricochets.

 

 

[RuamRudy]

47 minutes ago, Flustered said:

 

You had a chance of independence and voted against it fully aware that a vote on the EU was coming up. Or are you saying that the Scottish people are so badly educated and ill informed that they did not understand the pros and cons of an EU referendum?

Not true - the Tories had it as a manifesto pledge for the May 2015 GE but it was not confirmed until the Queen's speech following their unexpected win. The Tories won 1.7% of Scottish seats in that GE.

Edited April 9, 2017 by RuamRudy

[RuamRudy]

21 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

Another point that one would hope would be taken board on any further referendi, on any given subject: a narrow win against the status quo is simply not good enough!

 

To take the case of Scotland, the case would not be resolved if 53% voted out.  Large swathes of Scotland are fiercely pro union. There is the very real possibility that a narrow out vote could lead not only to the break up of the UK, but Scotland itself!

 

Unintended consequences and ricochets.

 

 

I agree with you - much like we have seen and are continuing to see with the unsatisfactory Brexit result, but I think that it would be a hard sell, the die having been cast with the 2 recent referendi.

 

 

[Basil B]

The way I see it there should be a Scottish Referendum to disband the Scottish Parliament and pass back all control to Westminster as the majority of Scott's must be really feed up of Sturgeon and the SNP.... 

[mommysboy]

2 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

I agree with you - much like we have seen and are continuing to see with the unsatisfactory Brexit result, but I think that it would be a hard sell, the die having been cast with the 2 recent referendi.

 

 

The Brexit referendum is anything but a result.

 

The issue appears: is it do-able? and at what cost?

 

I don't want a bunch of die hard Tories tying us in to a crap deal.

 

But I suspect that as an event it's significance has been greatly overplayed.  And parliament will have the last say.  Whereas most felt obliged not to block exit, I feel it will be a different matter if a bad deal is brought to the table.

[citybiker]

I agree with you - much like we have seen and are continuing to see with the unsatisfactory Brexit result, but I think that it would be a hard sell, the die having been cast with the 2 recent referendi.
 
 

The Brexit result was only 'unsatisfactory' to pro-EU remain & Pro-EU Scottish voters & NI, on the other hand it was a satisfactory Brexit result for Pro-Scottish Union, England & Wales, does the latter combined voter base not matter, especially as they won democratically?

Either way, Scotland accepted staying with the Union in the last referendum, thus also accepting the UK democratically voted to leave the EU, if Scotland wasn't part of the Union it would have a case but it is.

Once a Brexit deal is complete (pending the whole UK implications) then TM will consult SG on they're proposed referendum request, I'll await Sturgeon's further actions once we, the electorate know what all parts of the U.K. as a whole have to deal with.



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[7by7]

5 hours ago, citybiker said:

Once a Brexit deal is complete (pending the whole UK implications) then TM will consult SG on they're proposed referendum request, I'll await Sturgeon's further actions once we, the electorate know what all parts of the U.K. as a whole have to deal with.

Exactly.

 

May says wait until after Brexit before holding Indyref2.

 

Sturgeon wants it before Brexit; and one has to wonder why.

 

The only plausible explanation is because she doesn't want the Scottish people to have all the facts about which is better for Scotland; an independent Scotland seeking, and eventually getting, EU membership or Scotland remaining in the UK outside the EU.

 

She is obviously scared that if allowed all the facts, the majority of Scottish voters will choose the latter.

[nontabury]

11 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

Not true - the Tories had it as a manifesto pledge for the May 2015 GE but it was not confirmed until the Queen's speech following their unexpected win. The Tories won 1.7% of Scottish seats in that GE.

You forgot to mention what percent of the Vote they received and how many seats.

 Would it be untrue to state,that the SNP received 50% of the vote,yet managed to collect 56 of the 59 seats. Lucky for them no proportional representation.

[RuamRudy]

7 hours ago, citybiker said:

The Brexit result was only 'unsatisfactory' to pro-EU remain & Pro-EU Scottish voters & NI, on the other hand it was a satisfactory Brexit result for Pro-Scottish Union, England & Wales, does the latter combined voter base not matter, especially as they won democratically?

Either way, Scotland accepted staying with the Union in the last referendum, thus also accepting the UK democratically voted to leave the EU, if Scotland wasn't part of the Union it would have a case but it is.

Once a Brexit deal is complete (pending the whole UK implications) then TM will consult SG on they're proposed referendum request, I'll await Sturgeon's further actions once we, the electorate know what all parts of the U.K. as a whole have to deal with.



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Sorry for the lack of clarity - when I wrote unsatisfactory, I was not referring to the outcome but to the lack of a significant majority. If the in and out numbers had been reversed,  I would still consider it to be unsatisfactory.  As mommysboy said, a wafer thin majority either way can only lead to discontent.

[RuamRudy]

40 minutes ago, nontabury said:

You forgot to mention what percent of the Vote they received and how many seats.

 Would it be untrue to state,that the SNP received 50% of the vote,yet managed to collect 56 of the 59 seats. Lucky for them no proportional representation.

That is the nature of FPTP - a system the SNP campaigned to replace and the Tories campaigned to retain.

[RuamRudy]

19 hours ago, Basil B said:

The way I see it there should be a Scottish Referendum to disband the Scottish Parliament and pass back all control to Westminster as the majority of Scott's must be really feed up of Sturgeon and the SNP.... 

Lord Ashcroft suggests that you are wrong:

[RuamRudy]

More interesting data from Lord Ashcroft's poll:

Edited April 11, 2017 by RuamRudy

[Scott]

A post with profanity has been removed.