Govt floats long-term land leases for foreigners

[Shawn0000]

7 minutes ago, Destiny1990 said:

Coming all up in person means no Poa allowed get it?Well u can try ask the crooked lawyer crooked loanshark and crooked fake tenant to stop with their scheme since u not think adjusting the laws will work.

 

Oh, I see, well I am sorry but that is plain ridiculous, no way is any government going to bring that in as who would want to waste their life appearing in person every time they need to sign something off? It's not as if everyone has one plot of land, some people have hundreds and are buying and selling regularly, it would simply make it impossible for some businesses, we very much need poa's, that's why we have them.

[Anthony Loh]

2 hours ago, Shawn0000 said:

 

Presumably the simplest way would be to own 49% and have two other Thai owners, one owning 26% and the other owning 25%, that way you have the majority share, but perhaps one could sell to the other and get the majority that way?

Maybe can try; 20% wife, 18% child, 10% father in law and we own 49%, the last 3% put in under girlfriend name. Will this be more efficient? 555

[xylophone]

8 minutes ago, Shawn0000 said:

 

No, it isn't nonsense, you should not accept it regardless of how normal it has become, it is holding the country back and so are you if you partake.  And yes, there is something you can do, you can refuse the opportunity to bribe and instead pay the real fine if you are stopped by the police, you can refuse to pay officials who want money to speed things up and accept that it will take longer, you can refuse to partake in any corruption, like everyone should be doing, every little helps.

 

There are laws, but they are not effective, the laws and the sentencing guidelines need to be changed, we need ombudsmen for every government department, full audits of all government institutions as a matter of course, the introduction of public tendering for government contracts, and we need to be able to report people, at the moment we simply have to accept that it is a very dangerous game to report an official, that law above all others needs to change.

I don't accept it by partaking in it and never have done, so I have done my bit and it doesn't seem to have made any difference whatsoever.

 

I think what needs to be understood here is that corruption here starts at the very top and the corruption pipeline goes from the very top to the very bottom and the corruption money is fed into this pipeline and supports just about all and sundry. It supports the very people who make the laws in this country and also unmentionable others, so they have no interest whatsoever in stopping it, because it is their lifeline/lifeblood.

 

Why would the people who benefit most from this corruption want to change anything. That's why nothing has ever changed, because those that benefit from it make the laws and they ensure that the laws can be easily circumvented or overlooked for their own benefit and those above them.

 

In Singapore, they had a leader, Lee Kwon Yu who was not corrupt and who saw what he wanted for his country and because of this he was able to change things, but that's not the way here.

 

Anyway this is off topic, so back to what this thread is really all about.

[Shawn0000]

14 minutes ago, Destiny1990 said:

Coming all up in person means no Poa allowed get it?Well u can try ask the crooked lawyer crooked loanshark and crooked fake tenant to stop with their scheme since u not think adjusting the laws will work.

 

And I said that we need to adjust the laws, not sure where you got this about me thinking that adjusting them won't work.

[Shawn0000]

2 minutes ago, xylophone said:

I don't accept it by partaking in it and never have done, so I have done my bit and it doesn't seem to have made any difference whatsoever.

 

I think what needs to be understood here is that corruption here starts at the very top and the corruption pipeline goes from the very top to the very bottom and the corruption money is fed into this pipeline and supports just about all and sundry. It supports the very people who make the laws in this country and also unmentionable others, so they have no interest whatsoever in stopping it, because it is their lifeline/lifeblood.

 

Why would the people who benefit most from this corruption want to change anything. That's why nothing has ever changed, because those that benefit from it make the laws and they ensure that the laws can be easily circumvented or overlooked for their own benefit and those above them.

 

In Singapore, they had a leader, Lee Kwon Yu who was not corrupt and who saw what he wanted for his country and because of this he was able to change things, but that's not the way here.

 

Anyway this is off topic, so back to what this thread is really all about.

 

My last post on this, look into the past corruption in Czech, corruption was running the country, you had to pay boys to enter the train station, the police were not being paid so did not work, instead private insurance companies took over and charged a tax to protect people, there was no justivpce system, only the rough justice of the mafia, the corruption literally was bottom to top, nothing like in Thailand where corruption is a bit on the side.  Yet look at it today, everything is back to normal, it took the will of the people to change it, and change it they did.  The biggest problem with fighting corruption in Thailand is complacency, the people feel they are powerless, they are not, they can change Thailand just like the people have changed countries all over the world, Thailand really is not a special case.

[impulse]

1 hour ago, Shawn0000 said:

Really, you've just excepted corruption for eternity and don't even believe that it even possible to stop it?  Well, that attitude is the one that Is preventing it being stopped.

 

As foreigners in this country, we have absolutely no input into whether the endemic corruption continues forever, or stops tomorrow.  None.  Zip.  Zero.

 

Our only decision is whether we stay here and accept it, stay here and tilt at windmills (consigning ourselves to misery), or don't stay here.  

 

[Naam]

2 hours ago, geriatrickid said:

On 3/24/2017 at 4:41 PM, uchibenkei said:

There are ways around land ownership laws.  I wouldn't bother with a lease.

No there are not.  You may think you have fooled the system. You have not. The only person  you have fooled is yourself.

The courts have  not strayed from the enforcement of the ownership provisions ever.

fairy tales don't become true no matter how often they are repeated. correct me by providing links to relevant court cases.

[Naam]

23 minutes ago, impulse said:

1 hour ago, Shawn0000 said:

Really, you've just excepted corruption for eternity and don't even believe that it even possible to stop it?  Well, that attitude is the one that Is preventing it being stopped.

As foreigners in this country, we have absolutely no input into whether the endemic corruption continues forever, or stops tomorrow.  None.  Zip.  Zero.

 

Our only decision is whether we stay here and accept it, stay here and tilt at windmills (consigning ourselves to misery), or don't stay here.  

whether living with corruption is a misery or a blessing which facilitates life is a matter of perspective. to each his own!

[impulse]

Just now, Naam said:

whether living with corruption is a misery or a blessing which facilitates life is a matter of perspective. to each his own!

 

I've got no problems living with the corruption.  My problem is living with things I don't accept.  I suspect that's why so many expats become miserable old curmudgeons, while others thrive here.  They both live under the same conditions.  It's how they deal with those conditions that makes the difference.

[Naam]

Quote

Shawn0000 said:

 

No, it isn't nonsense, you should not accept it regardless of how normal it has become, it is holding the country back and so are you if you partake.  And yes, there is something you can do, you can refuse the opportunity to bribe and instead pay the real fine if you are stopped by the police, you can refuse to pay officials who want money to speed things up and accept that it will take longer, you can refuse to partake in any corruption, like everyone should be doing, every little helps.

and after your 17th reincarnation you will still be disappointed.

[Naam]

2 minutes ago, impulse said:

 

I've got no problems living with the corruption.  My problem is living with things I don't accept.  I suspect that's why so many expats become miserable old curmudgeons, while others thrive here.  They both live under the same conditions.  It's how they deal with those conditions that makes the difference.

bingo!

 

[aslimversgwm]

4 hours ago, Shawn0000 said:

 

 Quite a lot of money, you get one hell of a house in Thailand for that much, what sort of property are we talking, and where?  I do like Malaysia, not sure I trust their politics though, I knew a group of Christians there who lived in constant fear, many of their acquaintances had been taken in by the religious police and interrogated as to whether they were planning to convert from Islam and they felt that they were constantly under surveillance, I think it would be a concern being a Christian living there, you can put other people at the risk just as well as yourself being accused of trying to convert people, people don't realise just how many fundamental Islamists there are in Malaysia and just how influential they really are.

And if ur gay  - forget it

[little mary sunshine]

4 hours ago, Shawn0000 said:

 

 Quite a lot of money, you get one hell of a house in Thailand for that much, what sort of property are we talking, and where?  I do like Malaysia, not sure I trust their politics though, I knew a group of Christians there who lived in constant fear, many of their acquaintances had been taken in by the religious police and interrogated as to whether they were planning to convert from Islam and they felt that they were constantly under surveillance, I think it would be a concern being a Christian living there, you can put other people at the risk just as well as yourself being accused of trying to convert people, people don't realise just how many fundamental Islamists there are in Malaysia and just how influential they really are.

These are wealthy foreigners and the appear

to have no problems with their local friends

and a considerable population of expats that

they golf, travel and socialize with..They are

Christians. 

[little mary sunshine]

2 minutes ago, Paruk said:

I start to think that little mary sunshine is actually holy mary moonlighting........in realty in Malaysia.

Totally wrong!!

[Shawn0000]

9 minutes ago, Paruk said:

You might have missed it because of riding a high moral horse but there is an ombudsman that covers all government departments and you can easily report people that work for the government by using article 157 of the moral code for governmental workers. As a matter of fact, we have used the services of the ombudsman a couple of times and it did wonders. We had several officers of the tax department removed from their post (promoted to insignificant position in some little districts far away) based upon article 157.

 

So enough weapons to go to battle. But most of all, if you live somewhere, you better get to know the rules and laws if you don't want to get screwed all the time. Knowledge is power and ignorance your demise.

 

An ombudsman that covers all government departments translates to enough weapons to go to war in your mind, in mine it is woefully ineffectual, you only have to work within a government institution to know that no one is ever looking, they give contracts to family and friends, buy supplies from family and friends and funds go missing regularly, where was the ombudsman?

 

I know it is legally possible to report someone for corruption, unfortunately you must be extremely careful how you go about this and you must have all the evidence, in most counties you can give your testimony and they will investigate, but it not always the case here, they may well just turn it back onto you, and that is making the people too afraid to report people, I am sure you are aware of this predicament.

[Shawn0000]

28 minutes ago, Paruk said:

Hiring a lawyer to do that would be the same as asking a notorious bank robber to safeguard your money!

 

choose your lawyer wisely, they are not all corruptible, mine is a French barrister who regularly takes on cases of corruption, he is not in the game of ripping people off.

[scubascuba3]

I imagine the condo 51% Thai ownership rule will need to change soon otherwise new projects will dry up in a few years

[Shawn0000]

1 hour ago, impulse said:

 

As foreigners in this country, we have absolutely no input into whether the endemic corruption continues forever, or stops tomorrow.  None.  Zip.  Zero.

 

Our only decision is whether we stay here and accept it, stay here and tilt at windmills (consigning ourselves to misery), or don't stay here.  

 

 

Of course you have some input, you can not partake in corruption, that is doing your bit, unfortunately many expats do, they bribe officials to handle their paperwork faster and they bribe the police to get off a larger fine, they are actually exasperating the problem, the problem being so many people think that their little bit will make no difference, it does.  The other thing you can do is spread opinion, talk to people about the problems that corruption is causing in Thailand, educate them as to how to avoid paying bribes and encourage them to do the same to their acquaintances.  It may not be a lot but neither is it none, zip, zero, which is just your own uninspired complacency speaking, part and parcel of the problem.

[Shawn0000]

20 minutes ago, little mary sunshine said:

These are wealthy foreigners and the appear

to have no problems with their local friends

and a considerable population of expats that

they golf, travel and socialize with..They are

Christians. 

 

And they probably wont.  Those extremist types are probably much more interested in the Malay Christian converts, like who I socialized with, than expats, but they are generally concerned with people trying to convert people and they do have people out scouting around to find them, they may well have checked your friends out, that is quite probable.  I just don't have a lot of faith in the future, it could go different ways, but one of those ways is an increase in fundamentalism, there is a powerful and large core that could gain more control and just generally make it a crappy place to live, otherwise it would be a great choice, beautiful, friendly, modern, clean, efficient, most people seem to speak English, great food, everything about it is great other than the religious aspect, that is actually at present is bearable.

[impulse]

19 minutes ago, Shawn0000 said:

Of course you have some input, you can not partake in corruption, that is doing your bit, unfortunately many expats do, they bribe officials to handle their paperwork faster and they bribe the police to get off a larger fine, they are actually exasperating the problem, the problem being so many people think that their little bit will make no difference, it does.  The other thing you can do is spread opinion, talk to people about the problems that corruption is causing in Thailand, educate them as to how to avoid paying bribes and encourage them to do the same to their acquaintances.  It may not be a lot but neither is it none, zip, zero, which is just your own uninspired complacency speaking, part and parcel of the problem.

 

 

Oh, you mean tilting at windmills.  

 

It's been going on for millennia, everyone knows it's been going on, so "educating them" is rather arrogant.  Personally, I prefer to be educated myself- by people who grew up and have lived within the system for their entire lives.  They know a little more about it than you or I will ever know.  Strangely, both here and in China, I have usually found a logic to their customs which are so foreign to me.

 

Coming over here with our superior western mentalities causes a lot more problems than learning to live within their existing culture.  Rather than lecturing them- which has a tendency to cause people to bow up and does more harm than good, I try to live my life the best and most honestly I can, and hope to set an example that catches on.  Sometimes I succeed, sometimes I fall short.  

 

Beyond that, I have neither the right, nor ability to change their culture.  My only real choice is whether to stay or leave.  Anything else is folly.

 

Edited March 25, 2017 by impulse

[Destiny1990]

3 hours ago, Shawn0000 said:

 

Oh, I see, well I am sorry but that is plain ridiculous, no way is any government going to bring that in as who would want to waste their life appearing in person every time they need to sign something off? It's not as if everyone has one plot of land, some people have hundreds and are buying and selling regularly, it would simply make it impossible for some businesses, we very much need poa's, that's why we have them.

I think there are several ways to secure the proces and protect the innocent more against theft fraud.

[eisfeld]

On 24/03/2017 at 2:17 PM, SoilSpoil said:

Just have a look at Hong Kong or Taipei and then pray that Thailands policies stay the way they are. The Chinese would purchase the entire coumtry.

Don't think they need to purchase any part of HK in order to own it :)

"Hong Kong Special Administrative Region of the People's Republic of China".

 

And the way it looks, they'll be pushing hard to make Taiwan a SAR as well and then try to swallow other countries around them.

 

But look at Japan. They allow foreign land ownership and yet they were not bought out by foreigners.

[oldlakey]

4 hours ago, ukrules said:

There's always Bitcoin, the money that dies with you unless you write down your passwords / private keys.

Thanks for the info, but its of no help, in fact its totally useless

I need a solution for the NO pockets in shrouds problem

[Shawn0000]

2 hours ago, impulse said:

 

 

Oh, you mean tilting at windmills.  

 

It's been going on for millennia, everyone knows it's been going on, so "educating them" is rather arrogant.  Personally, I prefer to be educated myself- by people who grew up and have lived within the system for their entire lives.  They know a little more about it than you or I will ever know.  Strangely, both here and in China, I have usually found a logic to their customs which are so foreign to me.

 

Coming over here with our superior western mentalities causes a lot more problems than learning to live within their existing culture.  Rather than lecturing them- which has a tendency to cause people to bow up and does more harm than good, I try to live my life the best and most honestly I can, and hope to set an example that catches on.  Sometimes I succeed, sometimes I fall short.  

 

Beyond that, I have neither the right, nor ability to change their culture.  My only real choice is whether to stay or leave.  Anything else is folly.

 

 

I hate that you call corruption culture.

[asean]

On 3/24/2017 at 4:41 PM, uchibenkei said:

There are ways around land ownership laws.  I wouldn't bother with a lease.

and every way is technically illegal. Just the fact that you had to use the express "way around" implies circumventing a law.

[Krenjai]

10 hours ago, Karlo said:

 

Even if the land owning company always needs to be 51% Thai owned, it can be structured in such a way that the other 49% has control of the company voting rights and therefore controls what happens. This is not circumventing the law!  And is different than creating a separate Thai company with 'fake' Thai nominees to 'own' the land, that is officially illegal.......

Can you please explain this concept in a little more detail as to how to implement it.... much appreciated

Sorry, I am not a lawyer. I do know, that setting up a shell Thai company with Thai nominees to own land is illegal and considered circumventing the law. I am saying that there are legal structures whereby the 'farangs' who enters into 30+30 or 30+30+30 leases also become shareholders in the Thai company that owns the land. Of course the maximum allowed is 49%. So no need for setting up a Thai company with nominees holding the preferential shares, the company already exists. Part of entering in the lease should be a transfer of shares in the land owning company upon land registration. This is not circumventing the law.  How to structure this? I don't know exactly. It exists, but is a grey area. 

 

Welcome  to the Land of Smiles!

 

Edited March 25, 2017 by Krenjai

[asean]

2 minutes ago, Krenjai said:

Sorry, I am not a lawyer. I do know, that setting up a shell Thai company with Thai nominees to own land is illegal and considered circumventing the law. I am saying that there are legal structures whereby the 'farangs' who enters into 30+30 or 30+30+30 leases also become shareholders in the Thai company that owns the land. Of course the maximum allowed is 49%. So no need for setting up a Thai company with nominees holding the preferential shares, the company already exists. Part of entering in the lease should be a transfer shares in the land owning company upon land registration. This is not circumventing the law.  How to structure this? I don't know exactly. It exists, but is a grey area. 

 

Welcome  to the Land of Smiles!

 

30 year options are not legally enforceable. The maximum legally enforceable term is 30 years only. No there are no legal structures where a foreigner can own 49% of a Thai land holding company with two existing Thai nominees. Everybody talks about "when the govt changes the laws" when they should be more concerned with "what if they decided to just enforce current laws". The company needs to be under Thai control regardless of share structure or voting preferences. 

[garyk]

19 hours ago, dotpoom said:

I feel sorry that you seem to have had many a bad experience over here and none of the fantastic ones that make life just great, including going home to a pad where you are surrounded with pics and stuff hanging on the wall of your loved ones and whatever....something you cannot do in a rented room. 

Sure you can, People rent there whole life and put down roots. I personally think it is a good idea here. 

Different people like different things.

[bkkcanuck8]

7 hours ago, eisfeld said:

But look at Japan. They allow foreign land ownership and yet they were not bought out by foreigners.

 

There is quite a difference in economics.  The internal property market has been rather high compared to many places -- so it sort of limits the ability of foreign property buyers to affect the market and driving up prices making them unaffordable for locals.  

 

I lived in Prince Edward Island (Canada's smallest province, with a small and mostly rural population) and they have restrictions on buying property which puts limits on absentee land ownership (i.e. those that are not resident there).  [Understand that technically -- almost all of the people that post on this board are not residents of Thailand. ].

 

With the difference in economics between the developed world and developing world countries like Thailand -- and the vast number of foreigners that float around Thailand....  There is a valid concern that unrestricted land ownership by outsiders could distort the local market and drive even rural land -- leaving more Thais unable to afford ownership.  You have to look no farther than Bangkok where you have Condos that are almost all foreigners (partly foreign ownership, partly Thai ownership renting to foreigners) to realize that there are residential property markets already being distorted by foreign influence.   It is creating a reverse ghetto of sorts (communities of rich foreigners) devoid of Thais -- with little mixing....  It is currently limited to mostly upscale condos in a few locations -- but unrestricted property ownership rights country-wide could extend to areas which would price out locals (farms) the impact is spread outside.  

 

I don't expect them to allow unrestricted foreign property ownership until they become a developed country.

[captspectre]

12 hours ago, Shawn0000 said:

 

No, it isn't nonsense, you should not accept it regardless of how normal it has become, it is holding the country back and so are you if you partake.  And yes, there is something you can do, you can refuse the opportunity to bribe and instead pay the real fine if you are stopped by the police, you can refuse to pay officials who want money to speed things up and accept that it will take longer, you can refuse to partake in any corruption, like everyone should be doing, every little helps.

 

There are laws, but they are not effective, the laws and the sentencing guidelines need to be changed, we need ombudsmen for every government department, full audits of all government institutions as a matter of course, the introduction of public tendering for government contracts, and we need to be able to report people, at the moment we simply have to accept that it is a very dangerous game to report an official, that law above all others needs to change.

what's with this "we Need" tonto? are you a thai? if you even try to change a life long procedure, to try to change the basic Thai life style, you WILL wind up on a slab! take our left wing liberal attitude where you can safely spout off, otherwise get your affairs in order because if you get in the face of a corrupt thai official, you are history!