Should university education be free?

[Bikeman93]

With the advent of online courses and lectures it is now possible to get a higher education potentially much cheaper and more conveniently than ever before but it has in reality become much more expensive.

 

Does the benefit of revenue exceed the advantages of a more educated society? Is there a downside that I don't see?

Edited May 22, 2017 by Bikeman93
Addition

[irwinfc]

to a despot, there is nothing more desirable than having dumb and subservient citizens. elitism is also preserved when quality education is denied to the general, meant for labor, population.

 

higher education is (or can be) inexpensive, just don't expect quality, at least, that's what governments in developing countries would have us believe. the steep decline in quality education began when private  schools began operating and offered better wages than government-run schools. but it's not all about money. i believe that most teachers are dedicated to their profession, paid well or otherwise. the sad part is that education has become more of a business than a mission. the same could be said of health care.

 

as for online education (degree programs). convenient as they are, cheap is not a word often associated with it. people can learn online for free, yes. there are a multitude of sources and materials to learn from. but they are of little use as long as CVs or resumes are used to evaluate potential employees.

 

the advantages and disadvantages of a highly educated society are not hard to imagine. the reality is, the importance of education (and practically everything) is arbitrary. in thailand's case, you only need to look at its social and political structure and composition and you'll see clearly how much education is valued here.

[little mary sunshine]

I believe college education should be free to all poor and

working families...B40K per month or lower....the wealthy

should pay to educate their children.

[Salerno]

I think it should be "free" to attend for anyone ... but then pay back the cost from taxes when they start working.

[new2here]

For me, I think the word free is misused... while I support the idea, I prefer to use the term "included" as in included in your taxes.

I prefer this because I think it more accurately reflects the true fiscal reality.

A society could, in theory, make almost everything "included", but that requires some measure of buy-in to the notion that the national taxes structure must then be designed such that the sufficient level of tax income is then generated from the economic output and such output produces a sufficient tax base on which to tax.

I am all for the nation of universal healthcare and tuition-included higher education.... but.... I think an equally robust discussion about the tax realities must also be discussed.


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[dansbkk]

Nothing is every really free.  Someone has to pay for it and it is usually charged to the taxpaying portion of the population.  A more important factor may be the quality of the education received.  The quality of education counts a lot more than the quantity of diplomas handed out to unqualified students.

[williamgeorgeallen]

too many people in new zealand go to university and not enough do trades. there is an over supply of university educated people doing menial jobs and not enough builders which has lead to a serious housing shortage. i suspect there are other countries around the world in the same situation. flow on effect is house prices going up meaning the debt laiden uni students on lower paid jobs cant get into the property market. no university should not be free.

[tigermoth]

All levels of education should be free. Unfortunately as the governments of the world become more despotic it is not in the interests of the leaders if they wish to retain power as an educated public will question and demand transparency in the government's operations. This has happened here in Thailand evidenced by the lack of freedom of speech and the ban on public gatherings as well as the continual attempts to cover criticism from other countries. This will ultimately lead to dissatisfaction and unrest and finally bloodshed.

 

A highly educated public ensures stable and efficient government which of course is followed by peace and prosperity., the very opposite that most governments today want as they cannot line their own pockets.

 

One of the most terrible events diminishing the chance for world peace and stability is the recent arms deal between the USA and Saudi Arabia. Arms sales between one country and another should be on the banned list. Unfortunately because of the relatively poor education of citizens of the USA compared to other western countries they do not have an educated enough population to stand against it. There are also too many people in high places controlling this most lucrative business.

[speckio]

nothing is free... how do you pay for it? also if its free does that mean the quality of education is lowered???

[little mary sunshine]

17 minutes ago, tigermoth said:

All levels of education should be free. Unfortunately as the governments of the world become more despotic it is not in the interests of the leaders if they wish to retain power as an educated public will question and demand transparency in the government's operations. This has happened here in Thailand evidenced by the lack of freedom of speech and the ban on public gatherings as well as the continual attempts to cover criticism from other countries. This will ultimately lead to dissatisfaction and unrest and finally bloodshed.

 

A highly educated public ensures stable and efficient government which of course is followed by peace and prosperity., the very opposite that most governments today want as they cannot line their own pockets.

 

One of the most terrible events diminishing the chance for world peace and stability is the recent arms deal between the USA and Saudi Arabia. Arms sales between one country and another should be on the banned list. Unfortunately because of the relatively poor education of citizens of the USA compared to other western countries they do not have an educated enough population to stand against it. There are also too many people in high places controlling this most lucrative business.

"....poor education of the citizens of the USA...". Really!  The finest 

Universities in the world are in the USA and the brightest students

from around the world apply to be accepted.

[RowdyAlpha]

Governments should give you back some of your university fees if you get a job in that area you studied. And the longer your there the more you get back per year.

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[tigermoth]

56 minutes ago, williamgeorgeallen said:

too many people in new zealand go to university and not enough do trades. there is an over supply of university educated people doing menial jobs and not enough builders which has lead to a serious housing shortage. i suspect there are other countries around the world in the same situation. flow on effect is house prices going up meaning the debt laiden uni students on lower paid jobs cant get into the property market. no university should not be free.

You dummy, By the time a person leaves high school he is thoroughly educated. University adds a specialist area to a persons education, does not add to a basic knowledge of the world. I have a brother who is a carpenter and he is many times knowledgable than many university graduates I know.

[tigermoth]

6 minutes ago, little mary sunshine said:

"....poor education of the citizens of the USA...". Really!  The finest 

Universities in the world are in the USA and the brightest students

from around the world apply to be accepted.

University is not where the basic education is learned it is thtough school up to high school or college and the USA is well behind in this.

[KNJ]

6 minutes ago, little mary sunshine said:

"....poor education of the citizens of the USA...". Really!  The finest 

Universities in the world are in the USA and the brightest students

from around the world apply to be accepted.

Some of the finest, not all. UK has the top and others in the top 10 also.

I cannot disagree there are some excellent ones and the quality of the graduates speak for itself among all the top 10

[williamgeorgeallen]

43 minutes ago, tigermoth said:

You dummy, By the time a person leaves high school he is thoroughly educated. University adds a specialist area to a persons education, does not add to a basic knowledge of the world. I have a brother who is a carpenter and he is many times knowledgable than many university graduates I know.

i did 2 university degrees. both a waste of time. now 43 and semi retired through several property investments and a couple small business ventures. not sure what makes me a dummy.

[ThaiWai]

We live in a world where massive profits can be made from things like education and healthcare.  There is no one at the top of these types of organizations who is not susceptible to the lure of the dollar.  It was reported this week that the World Health Organization spent $200 million on travel last year booking 5 star presidential suites and flying business class world wide while only spending $191 million on AIDS, hepatitis and malaria programs combined.  When you are living the life of a king on donations and taxes in a culture that thinks that's normal behavior I can assure you university chancellors are drooling with envy not thinking of ways to make college costs more affordable.

 

Source:  https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/whos-annual-travel-budget-200-million/2017/05/21/342f0a62-3e7c-11e7-adba-394ee67a7582_story.html?utm_term=.c3a67957e125

[elgordo38]

2 hours ago, williamgeorgeallen said:

too many people in new zealand go to university and not enough do trades. there is an over supply of university educated people doing menial jobs and not enough builders which has lead to a serious housing shortage. i suspect there are other countries around the world in the same situation. flow on effect is house prices going up meaning the debt laiden uni students on lower paid jobs cant get into the property market. no university should not be free.

Yes a good trade is the way to go. 

[elgordo38]

17 minutes ago, ThaiWai said:

We live in a world where massive profits can be made from things like education and healthcare.  There is no one at the top of these types of organizations who is not susceptible to the lure of the dollar.  It was reported this week that the World Health Organization spent $200 million on travel last year booking 5 star presidential suites and flying business class world wide while only spending $191 million on AIDS, hepatitis and malaria programs combined.  When you are living the life of a king on donations and taxes in a culture that thinks that's normal behavior I can assure you university chancellors are drooling with envy not thinking of ways to make college costs more affordable.

 

Source:  https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/whos-annual-travel-budget-200-million/2017/05/21/342f0a62-3e7c-11e7-adba-394ee67a7582_story.html?utm_term=.c3a67957e125

Profits and protection why change things??

[Thaidream]

Education and healthcare should both be considered human rights. Unfortunately , some countries like the US consider them as money making opportunities. they should both be free and paid for by those currently working. In addition, the costs of an education are way too high. There are university administrators making in excess of $300K per year  and universities charging $50and upwards per year.  It is time to bring the costs down by the Government providing the funding for all higher education.

 

At the moment- the US government  'lends' students the money to get an education but then they become indentured servants to the Government and the banks taking 20-30 years to pay back the money. I have a family member who recently completed her Masters Degree and now owes $240K for her education. She is being paid a nice salary at her job but it will take her 20 years to clear her debt. Countries like Norway, Sweden, Finland and Germany provide free education to their students and  it's no surprise their countries have a very high standard of living.

 

As an American, I am appalled at the United States for not providing universal healthcare and free higher education but then what does one expect of a system that believes solely in materialistic capitalism while its poorer citizens continue to suffer.

[ThaiWai]

3 hours ago, Thaidream said:

Education and healthcare should both be considered human rights. Unfortunately , some countries like the US consider them as money making opportunities. they should both be free and paid for by those currently working. In addition, the costs of an education are way too high. There are university administrators making in excess of $300K per year  and universities charging $50and upwards per year.  It is time to bring the costs down by the Government providing the funding for all higher education.

 

At the moment- the US government  'lends' students the money to get an education but then they become indentured servants to the Government and the banks taking 20-30 years to pay back the money. I have a family member who recently completed her Masters Degree and now owes $240K for her education. She is being paid a nice salary at her job but it will take her 20 years to clear her debt. Countries like Norway, Sweden, Finland and Germany provide free education to their students and  it's no surprise their countries have a very high standard of living.

 

As an American, I am appalled at the United States for not providing universal healthcare and free higher education but then what does one expect of a system that believes solely in materialistic capitalism while its poorer citizens continue to suffer.

You make some good points.  But as others have said, nothing is free. The money has to come from somewhere.  There are hospital administrators making the same numbers as the university administrators you mentioned.  The American greed is a vicious insatiable beast.  With regards to "healthcare" you can bet that people who make and sell cancer treatments do all the can to delay a cure.  And they do it while sucking down martinis overlooking the sea from their Long Island mansions while flipping through yacht brochures without a drop of guilt.  Another fine example is that filthy Susan Komen Breast Cancer organization.  Shoving pink ribbons on everyone from Washington politicians to NFL players all in the name of cancer research while the administrators party with Hollywood elite and live the high life.  Fact, more people die annually from complications related to hip fractures than breast cancer.  When Komen produced their fund raising perfume "Promise Me" the were unconcerned that it contained potentially carcinogenic toxins.  That was liver cancer though and who cares about that when breast cancer is the only cancer that really matters right?   Especially when the organizations president took a salary of $600, 000 in 2012.  Be careful where you send your donations people.  You might just be paying for another round of lobster cocktails.

 

Source:  https://thetruthaboutcancer.com/susan-g-komen-pink-ribbon-facade/

 

[Bikeman93]

What wrong with an exam to test knowledge without the need to physically attend lectures as such, they are just a means to an end, shouldn't matter how you know as long as you know. The cost of the exam would be negligible.

8 hours ago, irwinfc said:

to a despot, there is nothing more desirable than having dumb and subservient citizens. elitism is also preserved when quality education is denied to the general, meant for labor, population.

 

higher education is (or can be) inexpensive, just don't expect quality, at least, that's what governments in developing countries would have us believe. the steep decline in quality education began when private  schools began operating and offered better wages than government-run schools. but it's not all about money. i believe that most teachers are dedicated to their profession, paid well or otherwise. the sad part is that education has become more of a business than a mission. the same could be said of health care.

 

as for online education (degree programs). convenient as they are, cheap is not a word often associated with it. people can learn online for free, yes. there are a multitude of sources and materials to learn from. but they are of little use as long as CVs or resumes are used to evaluate potential employees.

 

the advantages and disadvantages of a highly educated society are not hard to imagine. the reality is, the importance of education (and practically everything) is arbitrary. in thailand's case, you only need to look at its social and political structure and composition and you'll see clearly how much education is valued here.

Maybe your right, the availability of education is a means of control. Just not what I was led to believe 

[sanemax]

11 hours ago, little mary sunshine said:

I believe college education should be free to all poor and

working families...B40K per month or lower....the wealthy

should pay to educate their children.

The wealthy should pay to educate poor Children ?

[Bikeman93]

Just now, sanemax said:

The wealthy should pay to educate poor Children ?

They should concentrate efforts on making education cheaper then who pays for it becomes less of an issue.

 

Education is the most value added industry that exists. One recorded lecture is all that's required, no need for resident professors on huge salaries and universities with their parking lots.

 

[Bikeman93]

I think the term value added is misleading, should read cost added/value diminished.

[ljd1308]

Of course it should be free, the fact this is even being asked speaks volumes about the world we live in.

 

Trades should also be subsidised while learning to the same level.

 

[sanemax]

13 minutes ago, ljd1308 said:

Of course it should be free, the fact this is even being asked speaks volumes about the world we live in.

 

Trades should also be subsidised while learning to the same level.

 

Well, it isnt, or wouldnt be "free", someone will have to pay for it .

Just because a person gets something and doesnt pay for it, that only means that its "free" for them and someone else has to pay for it

[rickudon]

I totally agree with WilliamGeorgeAllen  that too many go to University and not enough learn a skill. In the UK, in the 60's and 70's about 10% went to university and there were quite enough graduates to fill most of the jobs; the only ones we were short of were ones like doctors and that was due to restrictions on how many trained. And it was all free. You could also get apprenticeships and learn a skill.

 

That changed in the 80's, apprenticeships were no  longer  properly supported, and school leavers were all encouraged to go to University (about 50% do). A university graduate doesn't want to work as a shelf filler or cashier - the learned some subject and want a fulfilling job. Unfortunately, not enough such jobs exist. Result - grade inflation. Jobs for which you only needed school qualifications for now need a degree, and academic jobs now require a Masters degree. But their are still too many .... my son has been trying to get a job for 9 months - but any decent job has at least 100 applicants for every post - often 1,000's, and you have to go through online tests, bespoke CV;s and situational tests to even get to an interview. The degree means next to nothing. And his are really good.

 

So many graduates end up doing dead end jobs for which there years at University have ill prepared them. And because they do not want the menial jobs we have millions of migrants doing them instead. And because so many go to university, government cannot afford it. So students finish university with debts of £40,000 or more. On an average salary in the UK, this takes over 20 years to pay back, including the interest. It has been estimated that at current fee rates, nearly 50% never will finish paying back these loans. The default rate could reach as high as 50% of the total loan, some believe.

 

So that leaves graduates with debts that make buying a home and starting a family unaffordable until late in life - why do you think birth rates have plummeted below replacement in the developed world? The only ones who  can afford children are those on benefits who get paid for them.

 

We need to have realistic career prospects for the youth of today, and PROPER training for the actual jobs that exist. Send the clever ones to University, and subsidise them, not all of them. if you send only a realistic number to University, they will get good jobs and pay back via income tax, Currently most students just waste 3-4 years of their life and end up paying for it for the rest of their lives. The majority should get work at 18 years, be on part time training courses, be productive and not end up in debt.

 

End of rant.....

[ljd1308]

On 2017-5-24 at 2:36 AM, sanemax said:

Well, it isnt, or wouldnt be "free", someone will have to pay for it .

Just because a person gets something and doesnt pay for it, that only means that its "free" for them and someone else has to pay for it

OK, I will rephrase to appease you.

 

It should be government funded from general taxes for students to study for free.

 

Everyone has to pay for it, but everyone benefits from having a more skilled, higher educated society. 

[ljd1308]

19 hours ago, rickudon said:

I totally agree with WilliamGeorgeAllen  that too many go to University and not enough learn a skill. In the UK, in the 60's and 70's about 10% went to university and there were quite enough graduates to fill most of the jobs; the only ones we were short of were ones like doctors and that was due to restrictions on how many trained. And it was all free. You could also get apprenticeships and learn a skill.

 

That changed in the 80's, apprenticeships were no  longer  properly supported, and school leavers were all encouraged to go to University (about 50% do). A university graduate doesn't want to work as a shelf filler or cashier - the learned some subject and want a fulfilling job. Unfortunately, not enough such jobs exist. Result - grade inflation. Jobs for which you only needed school qualifications for now need a degree, and academic jobs now require a Masters degree. But their are still too many .... my son has been trying to get a job for 9 months - but any decent job has at least 100 applicants for every post - often 1,000's, and you have to go through online tests, bespoke CV;s and situational tests to even get to an interview. The degree means next to nothing. And his are really good.

 

So many graduates end up doing dead end jobs for which there years at University have ill prepared them. And because they do not want the menial jobs we have millions of migrants doing them instead. And because so many go to university, government cannot afford it. So students finish university with debts of £40,000 or more. On an average salary in the UK, this takes over 20 years to pay back, including the interest. It has been estimated that at current fee rates, nearly 50% never will finish paying back these loans. The default rate could reach as high as 50% of the total loan, some believe.

 

So that leaves graduates with debts that make buying a home and starting a family unaffordable until late in life - why do you think birth rates have plummeted below replacement in the developed world? The only ones who  can afford children are those on benefits who get paid for them.

 

We need to have realistic career prospects for the youth of today, and PROPER training for the actual jobs that exist. Send the clever ones to University, and subsidise them, not all of them. if you send only a realistic number to University, they will get good jobs and pay back via income tax, Currently most students just waste 3-4 years of their life and end up paying for it for the rest of their lives. The majority should get work at 18 years, be on part time training courses, be productive and not end up in debt.

 

End of rant.....

I agree that trades should also be funded or subsidised for young people between 18-22(same as uni). Finish school, and we will help you get a trade/education to set you up for life.

 

But I think your reasoning is flawed, it is because of people educated in the 60's and 70's that the world is as it is now. 

If you are completely happy with the world as it is now, fantastic...hark back to those days and we can keep the status quo

If however(and by the gist of your post i suspect you fall in this category), you are not entirely happy with society and the way it is heading....you should want to avoid going back to the 60's/70's, not thinking that is how things should be.

 

 

[mogandave]

In theory, when you hire someone with a degree, you can generally assume that they can at a minimum show up regularly and get along with the instructor and fellow students.

That someone can pass a general ed test means little.


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