Powerline adapters

[janclaes47]

I want to install powerline adapters to provide an Ethernet connection to a source outside the house.

 

http://www.techradar.com/news/networking/powerline-networking-what-you-need-to-know-930691

 

I understand the basic that both transmitter and receiver must be on the same phase. I have single phase electrical network.

 

This is the situation. Outside the house, and where I actually want to have the Ethernet connection is a 100 Amp breaker that actually is the connection between my transformer and the breaker box inside the house.

 

The router is of course inside the house.

 

If I connect the receiver to that Main breaker outside, does that mean I'm on the same phase ?

 

 

 

Edited June 1, 2017 by janclaes47

[Forkinhades]

Pictures?
Do not connect anything to the main breaker, any faults and your equipment will be fried. Powered connections tend to fail here in LOS, as there is too much 'noise' on the lines.

IMO it would be much easier to install an ethernet cable from your existing router to an wired access point.



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[janclaes47]

Just now, Forkinhades said:

Pictures?
Do not connect anything to the main breaker, any faults and your equipment will be fried. Powered connections tend to fail here in LOS, as there is too much 'noise' on the lines.

IMO it would be much easier to install an ethernet cable from your existing router to an wired access point.



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No pictures available, but imagine that the outside breaker box is about 25 meters from the house and that there is paved surface between, so not possible to pull an Ethernet cable in a neat way.

 

Don't really understand what you mean with powered connections and noise on the line.

 

The purpose of the adapters is to connect IP cameras to my router so I can view them on my PC.

 

I of course can use WIFI cameras, but the spec of those are not high enough for my application, and my experience in the past is that the lose connection frequently.

[Forkinhades]

Noise = interference

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[janclaes47]

Just now, Forkinhades said:

Noise = interference

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I understood that, but I thought this only applies to internet connections.

 

Does this also applies to powerline adapters?

 

FYI my wiring from street to the house is underground over copper cable.

[Forkinhades]

Noise = interference
Also if your sharing multiple IP cameras, you final signal will be very poor.

Each IP camera will need its own cat 5 cable. Preferably from an access point.

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[Forkinhades]

 
I understood that, but I thought this only applies to internet connections.
 
Does this also applies to powerline adapters?
 
FYI my wiring from street to the house is underground over copper cable.

Yes internet is data, same as what your cameras will be producing.

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[janclaes47]

2 minutes ago, Forkinhades said:

Noise = interference
Also if your sharing multiple IP cameras, you final signal will be very poor.

Each IP camera will need its own cat 5 cable. Preferably from an access point.

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I have these adapters in mind, which have 3 lan ports, of which I would use 2.

 

http://uk.tp-link.com/products/details/cat-18_TL-WPA4530-KIT.html

 

Why do cables in Thailand have higher noise than elsewhere in the world, as I assume it is the same kind of cable.

[janclaes47]

19 minutes ago, Forkinhades said:

Do not connect anything to the main breaker, any faults and your equipment will be fried.

There are power lines that come from the house back to that breaker box outside, and which are behind a breaker, so I guess I can use one of those instead?

[Forkinhades]

I have these adapters in mind, which have 3 lan ports, of which I would use 2.
 
http://uk.tp-link.com/products/details/cat-18_TL-WPA4530-KIT.html
 
Why do cables in Thailand have higher noise than elsewhere in the world, as I assume it is the same kind of cable.

Earthing arrangements, or rather lack of them.

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[janclaes47]

2 minutes ago, Forkinhades said:

 

Earthing arrangements, or rather lack of them.

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My house has sufficient earthing on every plug, and RCBO's installed on each circuit, and the efficiency of the system was verified by a qualified foreign electrician.

[KittenKong]

1 hour ago, janclaes47 said:

There are power lines that come from the house back to that breaker box outside, and which are behind a breaker, so I guess I can use one of those instead?

 

Yes, use those.

 

I use Powerlan in my condo here without any trouble but you certainly dont want to be connecting anything directly to your main supply.

[KittenKong]

1 hour ago, janclaes47 said:

I have these adapters in mind, which have 3 lan ports, of which I would use 2.

 

Bear in mind that you could also buy adapters with just one LAN socket and use a cheap Ethernet switch. Some IP cameras actually come with two LAN sockets to allow for easy daisy-chaining.

 

Also bear in mind that you will never get the full advertised bandwidth, especially in Thailand.

[RichCor]

Power lines are inherently noisy, their primary role to convey current. In the process of generating, distributing, measuring and providing safety elements, the intervening equipment generates a lot of line noise. Generally, the electrical producer and customer don't care about this as it doesn't affect them. 

 

Even with this always present line noise it's possible to utilize in-place electrical wiring to convey data. Powerline Adapters utilize the in-place electrical wiring as a 'bridge', converting data on Ethernet or WiFi to signal patterns compatible to be carried short distances over AC wiring to another paired Powerline Adapter.

 

If you have an existing electrical plugs on the same common 'phase' mains wiring then the two units can conceivable create a functional 'bridge' and link both sides together as one. 

 

Your electrician can add electrical plugs wherever they feel it's safe. Though spurring directly off a 100A breaker doesn't really fall into the 'safe' category. This location will also be the 'noisiest' being the closest to everything generating noise on the communal electrical line. But if it's your only option for data and power at that location, then additional lower amperage breakers and protective housing should be sufficient.

 

   

[janclaes47]

Just now, KittenKong said:

 

Bear in mind that you could also buy adapters with just one LAN socket and use a cheap Ethernet switch. Some IP cameras actually come with two LAN sockets to allow for easy daisy-chaining.

 

Also bear in mind that you will never get the full advertised bandwidth, especially in Thailand.

I am aware of that, but I can't find the info if in the case of the adapters with multiple ports, each port get the full speed or is similar as with a switch that the speed is shared.

[janclaes47]

4 minutes ago, RichCor said:

Power lines are inherently noisy, their primary role to convey current. In the process of generating, distributing, measuring and providing safety elements, the intervening equipment generates a lot of line noise. Generally, the electrical producer and customer don't care about this as it doesn't affect them. 

 

Even with this always present line noise it's possible to utilize in-place electrical wiring to convey data. Powerline Adapters utilize the in-place electrical wiring as a 'bridge', converting data on Ethernet or WiFi to signal patterns compatible to be carried short distances over AC wiring to another paired Powerline Adapter.

 

If you have an existing electrical plugs on the same common 'phase' mains wiring then the two units can conceivable create a functional 'bridge' and link both sides together as one. 

 

Your electrician can add electrical plugs wherever they feel it's safe. Though spurring directly off a 100A breaker doesn't really fall into the 'safe' category. This location will also be the 'noisiest' being the closest to everything generating noise on the communal electrical line. But if it's your only option for data and power at that location, then additional lower amperage breakers and protective housing should be sufficient.

 

   

 

At the breaker box outside arrives a 2 core power feed that comes from a 10A breaker inside the house, and feeds the gate motor and infrared security system on the perimeter wall.

 

The breaker box itself has an earthing cable connected, which I assume is connected to the grounding wire of the transformer.

 

Would this be a sufficient connection for the powerline adapter?

 

As for multiple cameras, I think a 4Mp camera only use something like 7 Mb/s

 

As Kittenkong mentioned already, what would give the best result, a twin port adapter or a single port adapter with a mini switch at the cameras, or will it be equal.

 

 

[RichCor]

The 10A circuit should be fine.

 

Not sure why the camera would have 2 Ethernet, other than to provide daisy-chain to another camera, or as a method of providing power pass to the camera via Power-over-Ethernet cabling.  You will only be utilizing one Ethernet data connection back to your router.

 

You may notice the connection fail when the gate motor is running as they create a huge amount of noise on the AC line that may overwhelm the powerline communication.

[janclaes47]

2 hours ago, RichCor said:

Not sure why the camera would have 2 Ethernet,

 

There will be 2 cameras at the same location.

[RichCor]

3 hours ago, janclaes47 said:

what would give the best result, a twin port adapter or a single port adapter with a mini switch at the cameras, or will it be equal.

32 minutes ago, janclaes47 said:

There will be 2 cameras at the same location.

I think 'twin ports' would take up less physical room over an additional 'switch', but either way would be fine.   

[janclaes47]

I'm looking in to the possibility to pull an Ethernet cable, but that would involve weather proof cable.

 

Is that available in Thailand, and if so, where is my best chance to find it?

[MJCM]

I'm looking in to the possibility to pull an Ethernet cable, but that would involve weather proof cable.
 
Is that available in Thailand, and if so, where is my best chance to find it?

Just a suggestion, there is HDPE Electric Conduit available in Thailand, so you could use that. The Electric HDPE has a Red stripe while the water one has a blue stripe.

[janclaes47]

2 minutes ago, MJCM said:

 

Just a suggestion, there is HDPE Electric Conduit available in Thailand, so you could use that. The Electric HDPE has a Red stripe while the water one has a blue stripe.

 

 

Thanks, but the issue is actually that the cable will be exposed to the sun at places where it is difficult to install the conduit.

[MJCM]

Oke understood, but then your search would be a difficult one I suspect as there aren't many kind of cables (except for HDPE) that can withstand the Thai Sun. I have HDPE running from the electric meter to the house, with a large part (1-2m) exposed to the sun daily (will post a pic tomorrow) with no visible damage for over 2-3 years

[VocalNeal]

Sunlight is the big killer in Thailand. Why can't there be conduit and even if you could it doesn't last long.  Slice some green garden hose and cover the cable?  After five years replace it? 

 

NB Weather proof doesn't mean sunlight proof!

Edited June 1, 2017 by VocalNeal

[janclaes47]

The space is narrow at that location and near the transformer, so bit difficult to work, as I don't want to be electrocuted.

 

Cable tv, ADSL cables are all exposed to the sun and don't seem to break down.

[RichCor]

Normally I'd suggest running outdoor-grade Ethernet inside conduit.

 

Another option would be look for an Ethernet Media Converter (bridge adapter) that can use standard outdoor weatherproof cable ... but then I thought isn't that's what you're using the PowerLine adapters for, bridging Ethernet to AC and AC back to Ethernet? 

 

Powerline adapters would be the easiest to find and implement, unless the AC line noise or other contributing issues prevent that potential solution from functioning. But there are OTHER forms of Ethernet Media Converters that use copper wire, coax, fibre, or even wireless radio transceivers to 'bridge' the space.  But these other forms aren't as easy to acquire or implement and can be costly.  

 

 

[janclaes47]

38 minutes ago, RichCor said:

Normally I'd suggest running outdoor-grade Ethernet inside conduit.

 

Another option would be look for an Ethernet Media Converter (bridge adapter) that can use standard outdoor weatherproof cable ... but then I thought isn't that's what you're using the PowerLine adapters for, bridging Ethernet to AC and AC back to Ethernet? 

 

Powerline adapters would be the easiest to find and implement, unless the AC line noise or other contributing issues prevent that potential solution from functioning. But there are OTHER forms of Ethernet Media Converters that use copper wire, coax, fibre, or even wireless radio transceivers to 'bridge' the space.  But these other forms aren't as easy to acquire or implement and can be costly.  

 

 

 

I can install wireless cameras, but the wired ones give me much higher spec for the same price, and I'm a bit wary about wireless connections.

 

So it will be either the powerline adapters or pulling a Ethernet cable, the latter be the preferred option, but not the easiest one to accomplish.

 

Coax would also be an easy option, since I have a unused coaxial cable running from the router to where the cameras will be installed.

 

Can you point me in the direction of what is needed to make use of that cable?

 

I have also a 24 core telephone cable running from near the router to near the cameras, if that would be an option.

 

 

 

 

Edited June 1, 2017 by janclaes47

[KittenKong]

8 hours ago, janclaes47 said:

I can't find the info if in the case of the adapters with multiple ports, each port get the full speed or is similar as with a switch that the speed is shared.

Always shared.

[Forkinhades]

 
I can install wireless cameras, but the wired ones give me much higher spec for the same price, and I'm a bit wary about wireless connections.
 
So it will be either the powerline adapters or pulling a Ethernet cable, the latter be the preferred option, but not the easiest one to accomplish.
 
Coax would also be an easy option, since I have a unused coaxial cable running from the router to where the cameras will be installed.
 
Can you point me in the direction of what is needed to make use of that cable?
 
I have also a 24 core telephone cable running from near the router to near the cameras, if that would be an option.
 
 
 
 

Whats the 24 core cable doing?

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[janclaes47]

Just now, Forkinhades said:

Whats the 24 core cable doing?

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2 cores are used for my ADSL connection from the street to the house, and another 4 cores are used to transfer the signal from the infra red beams. So there are still plenty of cores available.

 

I checked the spec before and it is shielded communication cable, not Ethernet cable.