Putin Urged to Deploy Nuclear Weapons to Expedite War and Sever NATO Supply Routes

[Sir Dude]

Well, you could always leave it to the Russians and Chinese to sort out a fair result due to their great heritage of justice systems (pfft)...haha, as they are more than interested in the Middle East these days. Maybe the Saudis or Iran could be impartial referees...snigger. Some people should get off their high horses and realise that the deal they almost made under Arafat and Ehud Barak is the best one possible....wasted though because of Arafat's lack of compromise and arrogance. And, furthermore, Israel's and the Palestinian's position has hardened since then so might not be possible to do the same deal again as now much more hardened positions.

 

Edited December 8, 2017 by Sir Dude

[Morch]

1 hour ago, Jingthing said:

Palestinian violence, threats of violence, threats of uprisings, actual uprisings, etc. are related to the probability that the Palestinians will not be coming to the negotiation table anytime soon (well understandable) -- in response to trump's ill advised and ill timed pronouncements.

But maybe not at all ill advised and ill timed for trump's political purposes though.

 

Here's a theory about that -- 

 

Read more: https://forward.com/opinion/389466/trumps-jerusalem-move-is-a-ploy-to-protect-jared-kushner/

 

 

 

Could be missing something, but what does the headline of the article got to do with the content? How is Kushner protected? And from what? Or rather, how's Kushner (who's mentioned only once in the article) the center of Trump's move?

 

The article includes two assumptions - one regarding the specific details of the upcoming peace plan, and the second about Trump having a coherent long game. Not much direct support for either.

[Morch]

11 minutes ago, dexterm said:

Yes I am on topic, discussing forms of Palestinian resistance, but you clearly don't like the message, and offer nothing on topic yourself.

 

Most of your posts, and the one I responded to is no different, contain a whole lot of the vehement slogans and  expletives bringing up your own version of historical events, and assigning blame as you see fit.

 

Once more, what's on offer is not either a violent struggle or surrender - that is your message, and indeed, most balanced people out to reject it.

 

[dexterm]

18 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

Could be missing something, but what does the headline of the article got to do with the content? How is Kushner protected? And from what? Or rather, how's Kushner (who's mentioned only once in the article) the center of Trump's move?

 

The article includes two assumptions - one regarding the specific details of the upcoming peace plan, and the second about Trump having a coherent long game. Not much direct support for either.

Don't be so deliberately obtuse.

Palestinians protest Trump's unnecessary provocative Jerusalem announcement. IDF injures demonstrators using live rounds, as they did a few minutes ago.
Palestinians call off peace talks probably exactly as Trump intended so that he can blame others for failure of the ultimate deal that never was.

[stevenl]

31 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

Same old tirade, same old vehement hyperbole, same old slogans. None directly on topic.

 

Your bogus alternatives are not real. It is not either a violent struggle or "rolling over".

Same old, but very true and the root cause of the present situation.

[dexterm]

7 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

Most of your posts, and the one I responded to is no different, contain a whole lot of the vehement slogans and  expletives bringing up your own version of historical events, and assigning blame as you see fit.

 

Once more, what's on offer is not either a violent struggle or surrender - that is your message, and indeed, most balanced people out to reject it.

 

What expletive? Fake accusation. Quote it. Put up or shut up.

 

Better tell the IDF using live rounds right this minute against unarmed demonstrators that this is not an armed struggle. I have said that all forms of resistance are legal under international law. It's the Israeli occupation that is illegal.

[Morch]

4 minutes ago, dexterm said:

Don't be so deliberately obtuse.

Palestinians protest Trump's unnecessary provocative Jerusalem announcement. IDF injures demonstrators using live rounds, as they did a few minutes ago.
Palestinians call off peace talks probably exactly as Trump intended so that he can blame others for failure of the ultimate deal that never was.

 

Again - how does the heading of the article relate to the content. There's not much in it which deals with protecting Kushner, or even refers directly to Kushner. Not asking for your made up version of what's not in the article, but as to posted. If Trump was actually trying to protect anyone, it would himself and his ego.

 

And as usual, you treat the Palestinians as if they were unable to act in any but the most inane way. Perhaps a more responsible and smart Palestinian leadership would have made the utmost effort to avoid clashes, or have opted for a single act of mass non violence. Instead, it's the same old "days of  rage". And of course, according to you, they will call off talks, because apparently that's the only thing you think they know.

 

Would also be nice if posters could make up their minds with regard to Trump. Is he a moron or a mastermind?

 

[Morch]

15 minutes ago, stevenl said:

Same old, but very true and the root cause of the present situation.

 

A one sided "account" of events, ignoring anything which might cast the side a poster supports in a negative light, while employing simplistic, vehement descriptions is neither true nor useful.

[Morch]

12 minutes ago, dexterm said:

What expletive? Fake accusation. Quote it. Put up or shut up.

 

Better tell the IDF using live rounds right this minute against unarmed demonstrators that this is not an armed struggle. I have said that all forms of resistance are legal under international law. It's the Israeli occupation that is illegal.

 

Just revisit your posts. Plenty of them all over the forum, if almost only on related topics.

And yes, thanks, I get it that you justify and support violence from one of the sides.

[Jingthing]

 

Again - how does the heading of the article relate to the content. There's not much in it which deals with protecting Kushner, or even refers directly to Kushner. Not asking for your made up version of what's not in the article, but as to posted. If Trump was actually trying to protect anyone, it would himself and his ego.

 

And as usual, you treat the Palestinians as if they were unable to act in any but the most inane way. Perhaps a more responsible and smart Palestinian leadership would have made the utmost effort to avoid clashes, or have opted for a single act of mass non violence. Instead, it's the same old "days of  rage". And of course, according to you, they will call off talks, because apparently that's the only thing you think they know.

 

Would also be nice if posters could make up their minds with regard to Trump. Is he a moron or a mastermind?

 

Yes but that's why I presented it as a theory.

Sent from my Lenovo A7020a48 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[dexterm]

10 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

Just revisit your posts. Plenty of them all over the forum, if almost only on related topics.

And yes, thanks, I get it that you justify and support violence from one of the sides.

 

>>Just revisit your posts.

You have been caught out lying. Clearly unable to support your fake accusation.

I once posted a cartoon that contained an expletive when I first joined TV years ago being remiss in not reading the forum rules. I was suspended for several days. I have never used a single expletive since!

 

>>And yes, thanks, I get it that you justify and support violence from one of the sides.

More lies. Learn to read more carefully. I posted above that I recommend Palestinians use non violent passive resistance to achieve results. I do not support nor condone violent resistance, but stated it was legal by international law to do so.

[Morch]

15 minutes ago, dexterm said:

 

>>Just revisit your posts.

You have been caught out lying. Clearly unable to support your fake accusation.

I once posted a cartoon that contained an expletive when I first joined TV years ago being remiss in not reading the forum rules. I was suspended for several days. I have never used a single expletive since!

 

>>And yes, thanks, I get it that you justify and support violence from one of the sides.

More lies. Learn to read more carefully. I posted above that I recommend Palestinians use non violent passive resistance to achieve results. I do not support nor condone violent resistance, but stated it was legal by international law to do so.

 

Pathetic.

 

Your posts are all over these topics. Your gushing vehement style with everything that goes with it are out there. That is, apart from them post who didn't make the cut...

 

You have justified Palestinian violence, more than once. You have made excuses for such violent actions. You do not prescribe anything but confrontation. You reject almost anything that relates to negotiation. Allow me if I take your denials with a truckload of salt.

[dexterm]

Two unarmed Palestinian demonstrators murdered by the IDF using live rounds in the last 30 minutes .. by the most moral army of illegal occupation in the world representing the only true democracy in the Middle East...ho ho ho.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/jerusalem-live-updates-donald-trump-day-of-rage-latest-news-palestinians-israelis-protests-capital-a8098776.html

Thank you, Donald. Mission accomplished... the kiss of death to your ultimate deal.

[Morch]

Just now, dexterm said:

Two unarmed Palestinian demonstrators murdered by the IDF using live rounds in the last 30 minutes .. by the most moral army of illegal occupation in the world representing the only true democracy in the Middle East...ho ho ho.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/jerusalem-live-updates-donald-trump-day-of-rage-latest-news-palestinians-israelis-protests-capital-a8098776.html

Thank you, Donald. Mission accomplished... the kiss of death to your ultimate deal.

 

But according to your playbook that sort of thing contributes to the cause. Helps focus.

 

And there your go again with your "murdered". The "most moral army" nonsense. And the "only true democracy" bit. All of which were addressed on many other topics - and yet, slogans seem all you got on offer.

 

Do explain again how the clashing with the IDF was mandatory or why does this imply an inevitable end to the peace process.

[dexterm]

3 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

But according to your playbook that sort of thing contributes to the cause. Helps focus.

 

And there your go again with your "murdered". The "most moral army" nonsense. And the "only true democracy" bit. All of which were addressed on many other topics - and yet, slogans seem all you got on offer.

 

Do explain again how the clashing with the IDF was mandatory or why does this imply an inevitable end to the peace process.

I use the language I use because it is factual.

 

It was not mandatory for Trump to make his completely unnecessary announcement recognizing one of Islam and Christianity's holiest cities as exclusive Israeli Jewish property. Naturally that enrages other faiths.

 

Nor was it mandatory for soldiers to use live rounds against unarmed demonstrators. Imagine the furore if that happened in any western true democracy, not the much vaunted Israeli phony brand. But just the daily routine in Israel. Hence my ironic tone.

 

I call a spade a spade. You prefer obfuscatory sweep it all under the carpet language. Different styles I suppose.

[Morch]

8 minutes ago, dexterm said:

I use the language I use because it is factual.

 

It was not mandatory for Trump to make his completely unnecessary announcement recognizing one of Islam and Christianity's holiest cities as exclusive Israeli Jewish property. Naturally that enrages other faiths.

 

Nor was it mandatory for soldiers to use live rounds against unarmed demonstrators. Imagine the furore if that happened in any western true democracy, not the much vaunted Israeli phony brand. But just the daily routine in Israel. Hence my ironic tone.

 

I call a spade a spade. You prefer obfuscatory sweep it all under the carpet language. Different styles I suppose.

 

No, it is not "factual", and you know it. It is intentionally emotive, and aimed at milking such events to the max. Doubt you'd recognize a spade. Doing "factual" will require that you address things which may reflect negatively on the Palestinians, so not holding my breath.

 

The city, as a whole, is not considered holy, just parts of it. The interpretation you cast on Trump's statement is not factual. The supposedly inevitable rage was physically expressed by members of one religion, not both.

 

Trump makes a statement. We agree that it is the wrong move. For some obscure reason, a violent reaction by Palestinians (or even Muslims) seems to be not only inevitable, but also perfectly acceptable.

 

And still you cannot address a simple issue but need to spin - why are these clashes inevitable? Why condone them or treat them as acceptable? Why isn't the Palestinian leadership invested in harnessing popular sentiment in other ways? For someone who supposedly does not support violence, you seem reluctant to discuss these points. And the same goes for assertions regarding the supposed inevitability of the Palestinians withdrawing from the upcoming negotiations.

 

There are pictures of demonstrators throwing petrol bombs, so not quite the peaceful unarmed scene you attempt to portray. I never said it was mandatory for Israeli security forces to shoot demonstrators, but since you already "factually" decided it was "murder" guess that would be ignored in favor of your usual vehemence. The ongoing nonsense about Israel's democracy was addressed on multiple topics and posts - you seem to insist that democracy is a black or white matter, whereas most reasonable views disagree. The comparisons to unspecified paragons of  democracy are bogus.

 

 

[Scott]

Off-topic post reported and removed.  

[Catoni]

12 hours ago, dexterm said:

Don't be so deliberately obtuse.

Palestinians protest Trump's unnecessary provocative Jerusalem announcement. IDF injures demonstrators using live rounds, as they did a few minutes ago.
Palestinians call off peace talks probably exactly as Trump intended so that he can blame others for failure of the ultimate deal that never was.

  Why is it " ...unnecessary provacative..." to simply admit the fact that Jerusalem is in fact the capitol of Israel ? 

 

    Don't you realise that Jerusalem has been the capitol of Israel since 1948?    Trump did not make Jerusalem the capitol of Israel with his statement..   We was simpy recognising reality.   And then Hamas and Hezbollah and the Palestinian Authority and the Left/Socialists flip out, and go and get their shorts all in knots.  

[dexterm]

18 minutes ago, Catoni said:

  Why is it " ...unnecessary provacative..." to simply admit the fact that Jerusalem is in fact the capitol of Israel ? 

 

    Don't you realise that Jerusalem has been the capitol of Israel since 1948?    Trump did not make Jerusalem the capitol of Israel with his statement..   We was simpy recognising reality.   And then Hamas and Hezbollah and the Palestinian Authority and the Left/Socialists flip out, and go and get their shorts all in knots.  

Look at the OP title that domestic and international advisers warned Trump would happen and it has, but he still went ahead and did it anyway. That's why was his announcement was provocative.

 

It is also provocation because all Trump needed do after he had made the announcement was have the sign on the US Jerusalem Consulate changed to read Embassy, but like his pedecessors since 1995 he signed a waiver. So why was his announcement that has caused so much death, injury and harm to US interests so urgent?

 

Don't you realise that until a couple of days ago no other country in the world recognized Jerusalem as the Israeli capital apart from Israel. Doesn't sound like reality to me, more fantasy.

[Morch]

31 minutes ago, dexterm said:

Look at the OP title that domestic and international advisers warned Trump would happen and it has, but he still went ahead and did it anyway. That's why was his announcement was provocative.

 

It is also provocation because all Trump needed do after he had made the announcement was have the sign on the US Jerusalem Consulate changed to read Embassy, but like his pedecessors since 1995 he signed a waiver. So why was his announcement that has caused so much death, injury and harm to US interests so urgent?

 

Don't you realise that until a couple of days ago no other country in the world recognized Jerusalem as the Israeli capital apart from Israel. Doesn't sound like reality to me, more fantasy.

 

The OP's title is actually

Hamas calls for Palestinian uprising against Israel

 

For obvious reasons, you aren't willing to discuss that, but choose to focus on any other related issue. Kinda funny going on about Trump blaming things on others, while not being able to directly address or acknowledge the OP's title.

 

Trump's statement was provocative. It was not necessary and it'd not a good move. Being provoked and calling for violence is not obligatory, but a choice. It is not necessary and it is not a good move. But seems that as far as you are concerned, Hamas specifically and the Palestinians in general are exempt from such considerations.

 

And no, moving the embassy is really not as simple as changing the sign on the consulate. That, by the way would give you something else to moan about, seeing as the US consulate in Jerusalem mostly deals with Palestinian issues.

[boomerangutang]

How eager are the Israelis - to commandeer all of Jerusalem, and have it designated as their capitol?  Surely Israelis know that's incendiary.  Actually, I can partly answer that. Methinks it's a minority of right-wing Israelis (who hold the reigns of power) who like Trump's recent action.  I wouldn't doubt that most Israelis are reasonable, and would prefer to keep things at a manageable simmer, as it's been for a decade or so, than to pour gas on the embers - as is happening with Trump's/Kushner's/Bannon's ill-thought-out directive.

[boomerangutang]

In 1978 there was the Egypt-Israel Peace treaty.  Sadat, Begin, and brokered by Carter. 

excerpt from Wikileaks. . . . .  .

 

"This treaty was received with enormous controversy across the Arab world, where it was condemned and considered a stab in the back. The sense of outrage was particularly strong amongst Palestinians, with the leader of the Palestine Liberation Organization, Yasser Arafat, stating: "Let them sign what they like. False peace will not last".

 

Boomer continues. . . . .

 

Similarly, the Oslo Accords (1993) indicated progress.  That was negotiated between Arafat and Rabin, with President Clinton as mediator.  Arafat shook hands, smiled, and seemed to agree with the reasonable accords.  But as soon as  he stepped off the plane back at his home turf, he smiled again (as he always did), and nixed the agreement, and sided with the militant Fatah faction.  Fighting erupted for months/years.

 

Note: both significant treaties were brokered by Democrat US presidents.

 

Now the US is saddled with Republicans in D.C., and all they can do is fan flames of war.

 

 

[Morch]

18 minutes ago, boomerangutang said:

How eager are the Israelis - to commandeer all of Jerusalem, and have it designated as their capitol?  Surely Israelis know that's incendiary.  Actually, I can partly answer that. Methinks it's a minority of right-wing Israelis (who hold the reigns of power) who like Trump's recent action.  I wouldn't doubt that most Israelis are reasonable, and would prefer to keep things at a manageable simmer, as it's been for a decade or so, than to pour gas on the embers - as is happening with Trump's/Kushner's/Bannon's ill-thought-out directive.

 

Not as simple as that. The meme of a "unified Jerusalem" is well ingrained with Israelis - never mind that the actual reality is nothing like that. One of the standard political tools is casting blame that "he/they will divide Jerusalem", and so relevant rational discussion is often hamstrung by emotive rhetoric.

 

In theory, there are many Israelis who would support giving the Palestinians East Jerusalem under a comprehensive peace agreement. This support gets eroded some when actual issues are brought to play - such as the fate of Israeli neighborhoods built on what is to come under Palestinian control. Many Israelis do not even think about them as illegal settlements as such, and while creative cartography can sort some of these issues, it goes just so far. Then there's the access and control to the old city and the holy places....which is a whole different level of complexity and argument.

 

So, much like the Palestinians, Israelis may express support for things in general, and be more reluctant when it comes down to actual details. Leaderships on either side do not help much with creating an atmosphere for rational public debate.

[bert bloggs]

It has to be faced ,nothing anybody does or does not do will pacify Islam , it is out to become the dominant religion ,its what Mohamed preached and it is what they are after , they will do anything to further this aim ,

[Scott]

Off-topic posts and replies removed.  

[dexterm]

45 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

The OP's title is actually

Hamas calls for Palestinian uprising against Israel

 

For obvious reasons, you aren't willing to discuss that, but choose to focus on any other related issue. Kinda funny going on about Trump blaming things on others, while not being able to directly address or acknowledge the OP's title.

 

Trump's statement was provocative. It was not necessary and it'd not a good move. Being provoked and calling for violence is not obligatory, but a choice. It is not necessary and it is not a good move. But seems that as far as you are concerned, Hamas specifically and the Palestinians in general are exempt from such considerations.

 

And no, moving the embassy is really not as simple as changing the sign on the consulate. That, by the way would give you something else to moan about, seeing as the US consulate in Jerusalem mostly deals with Palestinian issues.

As I have written many times and again above, but which you seem to have trouble comprehending. So I'll try yet again.

 

I do not support nor recommend a violent resistance..it will only get Palestinians killed. Israel is the only one with a standing heavily weaponized trained army in Palestine. But I can understand the rage of an indigenous people who have been ethnically cleansed from their land twice now, been illegally occupied for the last 50 years, and in the case of Hamas in Gaza been illegally blockaded by Israel for 10 years and seen hundreds of their children slaughtered by Israel's frequent disproportionate weapons testing in the open prison they must call home. I understand why Hamas is enraged. I do not condemn their violent resistance because they have a right to do so in international law.

 

I do not support/encourage violent resistance, because it will only get Palestinians murdered and injured by Israeli thugs. Israel seems to be winning in the violence stakes at the moment: 2 Palestinians dead, and hundreds injured.
I do not condemn them for doing what they have a right to do. Who am I sitting miles away from experiencing their suffering to do so. And I am not going do Zionists' dirty work for them. You are quite capable of besmirching Hamas yourself.
I don't think I can say it more clearly than that.

 

There are different ways of expressing rage.

What I do support, encourage and recommend is passive resistance shaming Israel before the world through social and international media.
And, now that Trump has killed the two state peace process, I wholeheartedly support the passive resistance that PA politician Saeb Erekhat is advocating. 
'Palestinians now appear left with only one viable option, which Palestinian official Saeb Erekat expressed Wednesday: “Now is the time to transform the struggle for one state with equal rights for everyone living in historic Palestine, from the river to the sea.”'
https://972mag.com/trump-confirms-what-israelis-and-palestinians-already-know/131315/

 

I said in a recent thread Trump's speech is a game changer.  The charade is over. I hope the aim of the struggle now moves to one everyone understands.

[thaibeachlovers]

14 hours ago, dexterm said:

 

>>Just revisit your posts.

You have been caught out lying. Clearly unable to support your fake accusation.

I once posted a cartoon that contained an expletive when I first joined TV years ago being remiss in not reading the forum rules. I was suspended for several days. I have never used a single expletive since!

 

>>And yes, thanks, I get it that you justify and support violence from one of the sides.

More lies. Learn to read more carefully. I posted above that I recommend Palestinians use non violent passive resistance to achieve results. I do not support nor condone violent resistance, but stated it was legal by international law to do so.

Gold star response.

[Catoni]

1 hour ago, bert bloggs said:

It has to be faced ,nothing anybody does or does not do will pacify Islam , it is out to become the dominant religion ,its what Mohamed preached and it is what they are after , they will do anything to further this aim ,

     Bert...   you're quit correct. I agree....  Islam is determined to eventually be the one, dominant religious/political ideology in the world.  In the end, they have absolutely no tolerance for other religions.  None at all.

      You have more common sense Bert .   

As far as I'm concerned.... (I'm not Jewish or Israeli. I was raised Christian and became Theravada Buddhist)... I'm much happier standing with the Jewish and Israeli side than siding with groups like Hamas, Hezbolla, the PLO and Palestinian "Authority" and their leftist comrades in the world.   Nobody, and no side is perfect, but I know for a fact that I've chosen the better side to support.  Israel 

Edited December 9, 2017 by Catoni
correction

[craigt3365]

1 hour ago, bert bloggs said:

It has to be faced ,nothing anybody does or does not do will pacify Islam , it is out to become the dominant religion ,its what Mohamed preached and it is what they are after , they will do anything to further this aim ,

And how is that different from Christianity?  Ever been to Africa and seen all the churches?  One after the other as you head down the road.  Baptist, Catholic, etc, etc, etc.

[dexterm]

8 minutes ago, Catoni said:

     Bert...   you're quit correct. I agree....  Islam is determined to eventually be the one, dominant religious/political ideology in the world.  In the end, they have absolutely no tolerance for other religions.  None at all.

      You have more common sense Bert .   

As far as I'm concerned.... (I'm not Jewish or Israeli. I was raised Christian and became Theravada Buddhist)... I'm much happier standing with the Jewish and Israeli side than siding with groups like Hamas, Hezbolla, the PLO and Palestinian "Authority" and their leftist comrades in the wold.   Nobody, and no side is perfect, but I know for a fact that I've chosen the better side to support.  Israel 

Islamophobic trolls both.

Not sure that Hamas in the OP is attempting to take over the world from the border fence in Gaza while being shot at with live rounds. I think they'd settle for justice in their homeland.