Tony Blair warns British voters: time is running out to stop Brexit folly

[SheungWan]

12 hours ago, The manic said:

The EU was and is a large single market – but it is a protectionist one. Thus, like all such insular blocs, it is not sustainable in a dynamic world economy. It protects bureaucrats and the middle classes and big companies and small farms – but not Europeans as a whole as consumers. EU consumers should have the opportunity to buy on world markets at the most competitive rates for price and quality. If the EU just wants to keep the Chinese, Indians and the rest out of the single market then it is simply making its own citizens poorer.

There are other reasons to believe that the EU project isn’t worth persevering with. There is the inherent destructive effect of a single currency, the euro, on such a large part of our economic future. The euro, as Joseph Stiglitz forensically analyses it in his recent book, is permanently prone to crises because it isn’t backed by “a fiscal union”, which is to say the richer countries in the North won’t subsidise the poorer ones in the South. The constant push for political integration, partly under some pressure from president Macron to “fix” the euro’s fundamental flaw will also continue to alienate Europe’s people from the ideals of the EU. So will the ceaseless desire to close down opt-outs and national vetoes and, simultaneously, to expand the EU’s frontiers eastwards towards poorer states and a substantial land frontier with Russia. All these trends will continue to strain the EU in 2018 and beyond.

Who could be entirely confident that the EU would still be around in its current form in a decade or so? It will still be growing uncompetitive in world markets, prone to banking crises and social unrest as the euro inflicts austerity on the least well-off in the weakest countries. Now may be the moment to find the exit.

The above is copied in its entirety without any attribution whatsoever from the January 1 2018 edition of the Independent. So much for Brexiteer integrity.

[Scott]

Troll post removed.  

[Grouse]

The whole business of global competition is worthy of discussion in its own right

 

Are we saying laissaz faire should be the rule?

 

What about environmental standards? Animal welfare? Working conditions? Living standards?

 

Are we really saying we want to buy from the cheapest source regardless? 

 

How will our farmers react to that? How's life going to be for pigs in the post Brexit UK farm?

 

What about manufacturing? Personally, I abhor the working conditions in Chinese electronics assembly plants. And who benefits? The consumer? Of course not. Capital wins with huge margins. That's why the Komodo Cons are so keen

 

No, the EU takes care of many angles. Be careful what you wish for - if in ain't broke, don't fix it.

[nauseus]

22 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Without looking it up, I would believe that the politicians lied through their teeth about how wonderful it was going to be.

However, wasn't it supposed to be just a sort of super free trade group? All the political junk was levered in later.

However, coming from a small country that sent many to die in Britain's wars, to be shafted by Britain ( as we were ) is unforgivable, IMO.

Heath lied and Wilson didn't try to highlight that lie. The voluminous Treaty of Rome and all its content was not well explained by many. Powell knew the truth but people were understandably reluctant to listen to him after his controversial 1968 "rivers" speech. The EEC was broadly sold as the "Common Market". Most people trusted Heath and believed that was all it was. I was guilty of that too.

 

Yes, the Commonwealth nations were quickly discounted. I hope that gets fixed soon.

[SheungWan]

On 2/24/2018 at 12:40 PM, nauseus said:

This decision was given to the people and it's obvious you think that was both the wrong thing to do AND illegal. You and the rest of the remoaners are in fact the weasels, who are prepared to take or support any measures that will void or spoil the result.

The EU referendum was obviously necessary due to the result itself. If this result is eventually basically ignored by government(s) then the damage to the UK will be far greater that any consequences of leaving Club Med. Your labels are yours, not mine, Margaret.  

The decision to hold a referendum was made by Parliament. That decision was neither wrong in Parliamentary terms nor illegal. Implementation of the referendum decision is also the responsibility of Parliament. The Brexiteers however, tried and failed to exclude and bypass Parliament in the implementation process. The situation right now is that the Government (subject to the authority of Parliament) is negotiating the terms of Brexit which were not determined in the wording of the referendum. At any stage during those negotiations, if the Hard Brexiteers bring down the Government there is the possibility (though unlikely) of a future Government deciding to run another referendum if it so wishes and if it commands a majority in Parliament.

[nauseus]

1 hour ago, SheungWan said:

The decision to hold a referendum was made by Parliament. That decision was neither wrong in Parliamentary terms nor illegal. Implementation of the referendum decision is also the responsibility of Parliament. The Brexiteers however, tried and failed to exclude and bypass Parliament in the implementation process. The situation right now is that the Government (subject to the authority of Parliament) is negotiating the terms of Brexit which were not determined in the wording of the referendum. At any stage during those negotiations, if the Hard Brexiteers bring down the Government there is the possibility (though unlikely) of a future Government deciding to run another referendum if it so wishes and if it commands a majority in Parliament.

By decision I mean the one that was given to the UK electorate to either leave or stay in the EU, via the referendum. 

 

And you talk about weaseling.

[SheungWan]

13 hours ago, SheungWan said:

The decision to hold a referendum was made by Parliament. That decision was neither wrong in Parliamentary terms nor illegal. Implementation of the referendum decision is also the responsibility of Parliament. The Brexiteers however, tried and failed to exclude and bypass Parliament in the implementation process. The situation right now is that the Government (subject to the authority of Parliament) is negotiating the terms of Brexit which were not determined in the wording of the referendum. At any stage during those negotiations, if the Hard Brexiteers bring down the Government there is the possibility (though unlikely) of a future Government deciding to run another referendum if it so wishes and if it commands a majority in Parliament.

 

12 hours ago, nauseus said:

By decision I mean the one that was given to the UK electorate to either leave or stay in the EU, via the referendum. 

And you talk about weaseling.

All decisions re the undertaking of all referendums are made by Parliament as is also the the terms of implementation (particularly where not specified in the wording of the referendum). Any further decisions re approval of the terms of leaving or decisions concerning any further referendums will also be made by Parliament. Not difficult to understand even for Brexiteers, one would hope.

Edited February 26, 2018 by SheungWan

[steve187]

everyday more anti constitutional anti brexit headlines, this time from a turd

[bert bloggs]

21 hours ago, Grouse said:

The whole business of global competition is worthy of discussion in its own right

 

Are we saying laissaz faire should be the rule?

 

What about environmental standards? Animal welfare? Working conditions? Living standards?

 

Are we really saying we want to buy from the cheapest source regardless? 

 

How will our farmers react to that? How's life going to be for pigs in the post Brexit UK farm?

 

What about manufacturing? Personally, I abhor the working conditions in Chinese electronics assembly plants. And who benefits? The consumer? Of course not. Capital wins with huge margins. That's why the Komodo Cons are so keen

 

No, the EU takes care of many angles. Be careful what you wish for - if in ain't broke, don't fix it.

But it is Broke,thats why we are leaving ,goodby .

[billd766]

21 hours ago, nauseus said:

Heath lied and Wilson didn't try to highlight that lie. The voluminous Treaty of Rome and all its content was not well explained by many. Powell knew the truth but people were understandably reluctant to listen to him after his controversial 1968 "rivers" speech. The EEC was broadly sold as the "Common Market". Most people trusted Heath and believed that was all it was. I was guilty of that too.

 

Yes, the Commonwealth nations were quickly discounted. I hope that gets fixed soon.

 

I was a believer as well and I voted to join the EEC.

 

At the time I believed that I was right, having seen what it has morphed into, when the referendum came along I voted for Brexit.

 

Having read and listened to what has resulted since the referendum, should another referendum come along I would still vote in favour of Brexit.

[jinners]

On 2/24/2018 at 11:47 PM, Grouse said:

I am no corbynite.

 

I am also not a moron; Brexit should be canned forthwith.

I am also not a moron; Brexit should be canned forthwith.

 

Sorry, can't have it both ways

[dick dasterdly]

On 2/25/2018 at 12:40 PM, Grouse said:

The whole business of global competition is worthy of discussion in its own right

 

Agree entirely.

 

Are we saying laissaz faire should be the rule?

Nobody's saying that.

Quote

 

What about environmental standards? Animal welfare? Working conditions? Living standards?

Little has changed for the most poor/abused.  We still have battery farms/people working for wages that need 'top-ups' from the govt. to  reach minimum acceptable standards.

 

Quote

 

How will our farmers react to that? How's life going to be for pigs in the post Brexit UK farm?

 

What about manufacturing? Personally, I abhor the working conditions in Chinese electronics assembly plants. And who benefits? The consumer? Of course not. Capital wins with huge margins. That's why the Komodo Cons are so keen

 

No, the EU takes care of many angles. Be careful what you wish for - if in ain't broke, don't fix it.

Edit - Can't apologise enough for unintentionally 'messing up' your post 

 

 

Edited February 26, 2018 by dick dasterdly

[dick dasterdly]

On 2/25/2018 at 12:40 PM, Grouse said:

The whole business of global competition is worthy of discussion in its own right

 

Are we saying laissaz faire should be the rule?

 

What about environmental standards? Animal welfare? Working conditions? Living standards?

 

Are we really saying we want to buy from the cheapest source regardless? 

 

How will our farmers react to that? How's life going to be for pigs in the post Brexit UK farm?

Re. pigs - pretty much the same as during the eu reign.  UK 'small' farmers are a different topic as I gather the vast majority of small farms have been bought by big farms?

 

What about manufacturing? Personally, I abhor the working conditions in Chinese electronics assembly plants. And who benefits? The consumer? Of course not. Capital wins with huge margins. That's why the Komodo Cons are so keen

As you have acknowledged, there is little manufacturing in the uk - it's all been sold out to big business who manufacture overseas.

 

No, the EU takes care of many angles. Be careful what you wish for - if in ain't broke, don't fix it.

But it is broke and needs fixing!  Sadly, the eu elite disagree .

 

Again, I apologise for mangling the post to which I've been replying.

 

It was not intentional, and if the mods can 'clean it up', I would be very grateful.

Edited February 26, 2018 by dick dasterdly

[nauseus]

8 hours ago, SheungWan said:

 

All decisions re the undertaking of all referendums are made by Parliament as is also the the terms of implementation (particularly where not specified in the wording of the referendum). Any further decisions re approval of the terms of leaving or decisions concerning any further referendums will also be made by Parliament. Not difficult to understand even for Brexiteers, one would hope.

Decisions, decisions, decisions.

[dick dasterdly]

Just now, nauseus said:

Decisions, decisions, decisions.

Preferably, from politicians and big business pov - not by the electorate.

 

They made a mistake this time as they were sure they would win the  referendum vote - making it clear that politicians are entirely out of touch with the electorate .

[malagateddy]

Hope I outlive Blair cos I will be having Mother of all partys up here in Chaiyaphum[emoji23][emoji23][emoji23]

Sent from my SM-G7102 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[malagateddy]

Obviously when he "kicks the bucket"

Sent from my SM-G7102 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[oldlakey]

1 hour ago, malagateddy said:

Obviously when he "kicks the bucket"

Sent from my SM-G7102 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

Yes quite

[Grouse]

4 hours ago, jinners said:

I am also not a moron; Brexit should be canned forthwith.

 

Sorry, can't have it both ways

How wrong you are! Just watch what happens and be grateful 

[nontabury]

6 hours ago, billd766 said:

 

I was a believer as well and I voted to join the EEC.

 

At the time I believed that I was right, having seen what it has morphed into, when the referendum came along I voted for Brexit.

 

Having read and listened to what has resulted since the referendum, should another referendum come along I would still vote in favour of Brexit.

O.K I realise it’s only from a small sample. But from reading these Brexit threads, I notice that two people who did not vote for Brexit in the 2016, now say that should there be a 2nd referendum, they would NOW vote to escape this so called Union. 

 

 

[SheungWan]

On 2/24/2018 at 12:40 PM, nauseus said:

The EU referendum was obviously necessary due to the result itself.

If there is another referendum and the vote reverses Brexit, then that vote would have been obviously necessary. I think that that is how such logic goes. What is sauce for the goose is also for the gander.

[SheungWan]

14 hours ago, nontabury said:

O.K I realise it’s only from a small sample. But from reading these Brexit threads, I notice that two people who did not vote for Brexit in the 2016, now say that should there be a 2nd referendum, they would NOW vote to escape this so called Union.

That is a really fantastic sample of voters to bring to our attention.

[malagateddy]

Mods..maybe think about closing this thread..it has ran it's course I think??

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[nauseus]

57 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

If there is another referendum and the vote reverses Brexit, then that vote would have been obviously necessary. I think that that is how such logic goes. What is sauce for the goose is also for the gander.

Well, do keep us updated with more news from Crystal Ball Logic.

[jinners]

17 hours ago, Grouse said:

How wrong you are! Just watch what happens and be grateful 

Listen, you have a view, and that's alright. But stop taking on this <deleted> superior air of be grateful, I'm right, you're wrong BS that all remoaners seem to do. If you wish to support a corrupt unelected foreign bureaucracy to look after your affairs then feel free, get your arse over there. But please don't be so dismissive and patronizing to others who have a different view. It seems to be a standard refrain from those wishing to stay locked in to foreign rule, probably explains your choices in life, not having the confidence to be self supportive or stand alone, preferring to be told what to do and when by people from behind the curtain. Now shuffle off and say your prayers to the alter of stifling red tape and Latvian judgements and leave me alone.

[dick dasterdly]

2 hours ago, malagateddy said:

Mods..maybe think about closing this thread..it has ran it's course I think??

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Nooo!

 

It's always good to be reminded that blair supports the 'remain' cause!

[malagateddy]

D.D. you are quite right..the bitter remoaners must always be reminded of people like him supporting their lost cause[emoji6]

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[Grouse]

Back to pigs

 

No, bear with me; this is not off topic!

 

Radio 4 Farming Today

 

1) It is legal in the U.K. to rear pigs in buildings with no straw only slatted plastic floors and little light. 100s of them.

 

2) During farrowing, the sow can not turn around and can only lie on one side for 4 weeks!

 

3) Although EU regulations forbid it, 70% of UK pigs have their tails docked. It seems that these intelligent animals get so bored in their barbaric cramped environment that they bite each other's tails out of boredom. (Much the same as flying economy).

 

Anyway, two salient points arise

 

First, do we really care if pork was 10% more expensive if it meant that pigs were as happy as pigs in, well, straw?

 

Do we really want to drive down animal husbandry standards in the UK even further down by allowing even cheaper imports from god knows where?

 

I for one vote for high and increasing standards of porcine happiness. ? 

 

I am no expert (except on bacon) but I would trust the EU more than DEFRA and Gove.

Edited February 27, 2018 by Grouse

[Grouse]

2 hours ago, malagateddy said:

D.D. you are quite right..the bitter remoaners must always be reminded of people like him supporting their lost cause

Sent from my SM-G7102 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

Ask yourself this: is Blair stupid? Is he a fool?

 

Not many bright people in the Brexit camp now are there? Why is that?

 

I'll tell you: because the bright are more likely to have achieved more, to have "done better" if you like. They are far less dissatisfied and more likely to opt for the status quo ante ?

[transam]

Blair changed his religion....Is he a fool...?