Small AA Group - Tradition 3

[Neeranam]

21 minutes ago, mogandave said:

No, I’m not talking about an alcoholic that has recovered, I’m talking about alcoholics that no longer suffer from alcoholism. Why is that not clear?

That's a recovered alcoholic, if you read the big book.

[Wilson Smith]

I thought we go to meetings to help the new person. 

 

If I remember correctly it goes , take take take, give give give.

[mogandave]

That's a recovered alcoholic, if you read the big book.

So if I don’t read the Big Book it’s not a recovered alcoholic?

[gerryBScot]

I said the original post was a troll at the very beginning and there is little that has been written since to make me feel differently. I enjoyed Geo's post about being grateful for being able to get sober without AA and I enjoyed the footage of Bill W though the sound on my notebook is crap. I feel sorry for Neeranam who has been backed into a corner and left to defend the indefensible - that's what happens with trolls.

 

I think the business of getting sober is tough anywhere in the world but I think it is particularly so in a place like Thailand. Now even more difficult as you might be unlucky to be told you're not alcoholic and in fact that you're a cheapskate trying to avoid paying for counselling! The love I walked into in the rooms in London at my beginning is simply not there in Thailand and it's pretty obvious to me why that is so. I was recently back in London and I'm glad to say they're still loving people there. I heard a brilliant share from a publican who is 12 years sober and handles drink every day as it is his livelihood. I was there when he came back twelve years ago and what a joy he's still going strong. 

 

I thought Clancy I was joking when he talked about the sobriety police .....

 

 

[mogandave]

Anyone read today’s “Daily Reflections”?

Doh!

[MrPatrickThai]

4 hours ago, mogandave said:

Anyone read today’s “Daily Reflections”?

Doh!

The rules they are talking about are rules like no gays, blacks, Eskimos, drug addicts, perverts etc.

 

When the passage was written, only low bottom drunks were attending, so I heard.

[mogandave]

The rules they are talking about are rules like no gays, blacks, Eskimos, drug addicts, perverts etc.
 
When the passage was written, only low bottom drunks were attending, so I heard.

I don’t doubt you’ve heard any number of things.

[MrPatrickThai]

23 hours ago, gerryBScot said:

I said the original post was a troll at the very beginning and there is little that has been written since to make me feel differently. I enjoyed Geo's post about being grateful for being able to get sober without AA and I enjoyed the footage of Bill W though the sound on my notebook is crap. I feel sorry for Neeranam who has been backed into a corner and left to defend the indefensible - that's what happens with trolls.

 

I think the business of getting sober is tough anywhere in the world but I think it is particularly so in a place like Thailand. Now even more difficult as you might be unlucky to be told you're not alcoholic and in fact that you're a cheapskate trying to avoid paying for counselling! The love I walked into in the rooms in London at my beginning is simply not there in Thailand and it's pretty obvious to me why that is so. I was recently back in London and I'm glad to say they're still loving people there. I heard a brilliant share from a publican who is 12 years sober and handles drink every day as it is his livelihood. I was there when he came back twelve years ago and what a joy he's still going strong. 

 

I thought Clancy I was joking when he talked about the sobriety police .....

 

 

If you think I am a troll, don't bother replying.

 

So sorry if I offended you, not.

 

We are like survivors of a  shipwreck, having one thing in common - alcoholism.

 

I saw Clancy I a few years ago in Pattaya. I wonder why he went there, dirty old man.

 

His talk was quite entertaining but then I found his other talks for the past 20 years are exactly the same; what a pillock. And what a bunch of pillocks paying this idiot AA superstar, AND giving him pocket money, for Pattaya of all places, when they could have got a perfectly good alcoholic speaker from Pattaya, well maybe Thailand.

[MrPatrickThai]

On 8/29/2018 at 1:05 AM, Neeranam said:

That's a recovered alcoholic, if you read the big book.

Right on bro! "Recovered" is mentioned 20 times in the BB.

Some are terrified of this word, I wonder why?

[MrPatrickThai]

On 8/27/2018 at 10:30 PM, 473geo said:

I would have been classed as a heavy drinker ? not reliant on alcohol, just abusing it and people around me. Now extremely happy to have got it under control without AA

 

Whooopdee do! A non-alcoholic gives up the booze. That's like me giving up Magnum ice-creams.

Unfortunately, there are many, many like you that decided to go to AA and pretend to be alcoholics.

[mogandave]

Right on bro! "Recovered" is mentioned 20 times in the BB.
Some are terrified of this word, I wonder why?

So how is the meeting you started going?

Were you able to kick out the guys you don’t like?

[MrPatrickThai]

3 minutes ago, mogandave said:

 

So how is the meeting you started going?

Were you able to kick out the guys you don’t like?
 

It's going OK thanks. We contacted AA world services in New York and they suggested that we have a group conscience meeting. We did, and decided to keep it a "closed meeting" and the two non-alcoholics couldn't share if they didn't identify themselves as alcoholics. Fortunately, they stopped coming and we have a much stronger meeting, being the survivors of the same shipwreck. The survivor of the Vietnam war and the unhappy guy might have started their own meeting, but to be perfectly honest, I don't give a damn.

[Neeranam]

12 minutes ago, mogandave said:

 

So how is the meeting you started going?

Were you able to kick out the guys you don’t like?
 

 

I don't think it's a case of him liking them, or not. He says they are not alcoholics. 

[Neeranam]

23 minutes ago, MrPatrickThai said:

I saw Clancy I a few years ago in Pattaya. I wonder why he went there, dirty old man.

 

Is this the same guy who runs a meeting in the U.S., and you can't be a member if you don't wear a tie?

[MrPatrickThai]

9 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

Is this the same guy who runs a meeting in the U.S., and you can't be a member if you don't wear a tie?

I had to google that, but YES lol. http://aa.activeboard.com/t53403788/does-anyone-know/?page=1

 

"Clancy the self-appointed guru of the Pacific Group tells women they have to wear dresses and men jackets when they participate at their meetings. Men must not have beards. The idea is that conformity is part of the so-called cure of Alcoholism. Very controlling male chauvinist."


"There is an AA meeting in woodland hills called the Pacific Group. It's a mens stag meeting on fri. nights. This meeting is run like a Cult. AA is to help people quit drinking, not to try to control the members ever move. They will tell you how to act, what to wear etc... No where in the Big Book of AA does it talk about this BS."

"There are cult like groups within AA. Mostly in California. For example, The Pacific Group, where you are not allowed to have facial hair and are required to wear a suit. They have a GURU named Clancy who controls the group and many individuals."

 

Group speaking rules:


Wear a modest dress and make-up (men must wear a jacket and tie. No gym shoes allowed. Iintroduce yourself as a Recovered Alcoholic. Give both your sobriety date and sponsors name. Do not use curse words, and limit quotations either to the first 164 pages of the Big Book or to the Other Big Book.



Group rules: (partial list)


1) No medications should be taken whatsoever. If a sponsee or fellow AAer is doing so, they are told that is "untreated alcoholism". The PG considers all psychiatric/psychotropic drugs regardless of doctor prescription ruinous to ones sobriety. 

Pacific Group members and sponsors, are telling people to stop taking prescribed medication for illnesses such as bipolar and schizophrenia, and just trust the Twelve Steps to heal them. That borders on criminal irresponsibility. 


It is also practicing medicine without a license, because they are countermanding the orders of a real doctor. 

It is also practicing medicine without any training those fools have never gone to medical school. Attending A.A. meetings for a few years does not make someone a competent doctor or psychiatrist. 


Medications of any kind are disparaged, and any diagnosis of disorder other than the Big Book's disease concept of alcoholism meets with strong opposition. The parallel with "faith healing" should be obvious and the same pitfalls are present. To such individuals, there is no such thing as clinical depression.

Sponsor direction to stop seeing a psychiatrist and/or a psychologist, resulting in relapses, suicides, and psychiatric episodes.



2) Opposite sex Sponsors are encouraged. Sponsors are assigned rather than chosen. Sponsorship in the PG is not optional.





3) Long distance sponsorship is encouraged. 





4) The cross-continent sponsorship line (ie:Grandsponsors, great grandsponsors, etc) is integral and important to know.




5) Inventories are called "Giving a First Step" 
which is a detailed confession to the entire group that often goes back to earliest childhood and then focuses mostly on the period when the 'sinner (confessor)' had the most hormone-related activity, because that will have the most cachet. The more lurid the details, the more intently the group listens. Afterwards, there is much hugging and congratulating, so everyone can feel absolved. 



6) Members are encouraged to break off contact with friends and family outside the program, even those who do not drink, and to get an "AA boyfriend". Members are also known to be pressured into having sex with other members.




7) The PG does not allow drugs to be discussed in meetings.



? The PG makes the newcomers sit in special chairs so everyone knows they are fresh. (Lamont Oaks)



9) The PG group actively goes out to attract older men and younger women.




10) If someone attempts to leave the PG group or go to other, non-PG meetings, they are told: "You will fail. You will die." 

Members are only allowed to go to their meetings, and only talk to people in their group.


11) People are told that only AA knows what is good for them, and if therapists or doctors disagree, drop them and find one that does.


ALSO:

*In order to become a member of the PG, a member of the PG must sponsor you

*In order to vote at a group conscience meeting, you must be a member of the PG, which means that you must have a sponsor in the group.

*The PG groups believe in sponsor direction, not sponsor guidance.

*Direction to attend a meeting every night of every week, and, as mentioned earlier, only MG meetings. Attendance is mandatory and the sponsor must grant permission when a meeting cannot be attended.

*Direction to withhold child visitation to a spouse who is outside the PG or AA in general.

*Direction on who to be sexually active with and/or who to get into a personal relationship with, regardless of his/her age.

*Direction to live with others in the PG in PG group homes.

*Sexual activity is encouraged by justifying it as helping members stay away from drugs and alcohol and by stating that it is a "true spiritual experience."

*Sponsor/sponsee confidentiality is violated and personal information is shared with the leader and others in the hierarchy regularly. Written 4th Steps (an AA member's very personal inventory on sensitive issues including sex) have been passed on from sponsors to members of the hierarchy. This information is sometimes revealed openly in front of others during a meeting.

*As is suggested in the Sponsorship Pamphlet, new members are strongly encouraged to select a sponsor of the same sex. In the PG this is frequently violated, resulting in the abuse of power.

*Certain members of the PG direct other members to serve the leader and his hierarchy. While they do bring meetings into detox centers, rehabs and jails, it is for the sole purpose of recruiting new members into their group. Certain members of the PG refer to this practice as "Outreach". (AA, as a whole, is a program of attraction, not promotion. AA does not recruit members.) 

*Financial support is often disguised as gifts. 

*'Service work ' includes activities such as raking a sponsor's lawn, cleaning his/her home, doing his/her laundry, etc. (This is documented as cult behavior in literature on the subject and is not considered AA service.)

*They have directed members to cease seeing their psychiatrist and/or therapist. (A cult tactic that is described in literature on the topic.)

*They have directed members to stop taking medication prescribed to them by a medical professional and based on a diagnosis and treatment plan.
"AA is not a medical organization, does not give out medicines or medical advice."24
AA does not discourage members from seeking 
qualified help and even encourages it in our primary literature.

*They have directed members to throw away prescribed medication and to change their sobriety dates inferring the member was never sober while taking the medication. 

*Certain members of the hierarchy have ostracized and alienated other members and directed sponsees to do the same if those members are on any medications. Some former members have experienced being completely ignored when speaking to or approaching anyone in the group. 

[Neeranam]

Just now, MrPatrickThai said:

The PG considers all psychiatric/psychotropic drugs regardless of doctor prescription ruinous to ones sobriety. 

I wonder if they allow cigarettes and coffee, which contain psychoactive drugs.

[impulse]

51 minutes ago, MrPatrickThai said:

Right on bro! "Recovered" is mentioned 20 times in the BB.

Some are terrified of this word, I wonder why?

 

It mentions recovered, but it's very clear that nobody is ever cured.  We have a temporary reprieve from a disease that has progressed even while we haven't taken a drink.

 

Referring to myself as "recovered" is rather cocky and just bad mojo.  Even if I no longer suffer.  In fact, it's the opposite of suffering.

 

 

[mogandave]

I don't think it's a case of him liking them, or not. He says they are not alcoholics. 

It’s nice he has you to speak for him.

[MrPatrickThai]

1 minute ago, impulse said:

 

It mentions recovered, but it's very clear that nobody is ever cured.  We have a temporary reprieve from a disease that has progressed even while we haven't taken a drink.

 

Referring to myself as "recovered" is rather cocky and just bad mojo.  Even if I no longer suffer.  In fact, it's the opposite of suffering.

 

 

If you ain't recovered, you're doing something wrong.

 

It doesn't "mention" recovered, it states many times that we ARE recovered.

[impulse]

18 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

I wonder if they allow cigarettes and coffee, which contain psychoactive drugs.

 

That was always a puzzler for me.  Someone walks into a room to try to kick an addiction and we give them a cup of caffeine and offer them a nicotine stick.  But hey, who am I to argue with the millions who came before me? 

 

 

[impulse]

Just now, MrPatrickThai said:

If you ain't recovered, you're doing something wrong.

 

It doesn't "mention" recovered, it states many times that we ARE recovered.

 

If I'm not getting better every year, I'm doing something wrong.   Progress, not perfection.  Which means I'm still recovering.

 

 

[MrPatrickThai]

40 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

I don't think it's a case of him liking them, or not. He says they are not alcoholics. 

Although I didn't like them, that was not the point. You are correct.

[mogandave]

 
That was always a puzzler for me.  Someone walks into a room to try to kick an addiction and we give them a cup of caffeine and offer them a nicotine stick.  But hey, who am I to argue with the millions who came before me? 
 
 

I never had a cigarette and a cup of coffee and ended up in jail, getting fired, or waking up in a wet bed.

[MrPatrickThai]

1 minute ago, impulse said:

 

If I'm not getting better every year, I'm doing something wrong.   Progress, not perfection.  Which means I'm still recovering.

 

 

No it doesn't mean that.

 

You are progressing spiritually, hopefully.

 

You recovered from a hopeless state of body and mind many years ago.

 

[mogandave]

Although I didn't like them, that was not the point. You are correct.

I thought so. I assumed that the fact that you didn’t like them was a coincidence.

[MrPatrickThai]

3 minutes ago, mogandave said:

 

I thought so. I assumed that the fact that you didn’t like them was a coincidence.

This makes no sense.

 

[mogandave]

This makes no sense.
 

Why?

You said it was not the point,I said I thought so, which was meant to agree with you.

I went on to say that I assumed the fact that you didn’t like them was just a coincidence, meaning the fact that you didn’t like them had nothing to do with you driving them away.

Again, I think we are in agreement, yes?

[impulse]

2 minutes ago, mogandave said:

6 minutes ago, impulse said:

 
That was always a puzzler for me.  Someone walks into a room to try to kick an addiction and we give them a cup of caffeine and offer them a nicotine stick.  But hey, who am I to argue with the millions who came before me? 
 
 

I never had a cigarette and a cup of coffee and ended up in jail, getting fired, or waking up in a wet bed. 

 

 

Mine was more of a response to Neeranam's comment about the AA purists who decry all mind altering substances, whether prescribed by a doctor or not.  Yet while they're condemning anti-depressants, pain killers, and others, they hand out good mind altering substances like caffeine and nicotine. 

 

And, keep in mind that the Big Book was written decades before there was any real understanding of brain chemistry and activity, much less effective treatments for a lot of currently treatable mental illnesses that used to doom people to lives of desperation.  A lot of "alcoholics" back then were actually mentally ill and used booze as a coping mechanism.  Fortunately, the 12 steps work on a lot of life's problems.

 

And it was written by guys (and gals) with no literary background, who often struggled for words.  I recall listening to one of the original members laughing about how much is read into the choice of words.  He basically said "we didn't want to use the same word too many times on one page, so we mixed it up".  After I heard that, I stopped trying to parse it too finely.

 

[mogandave]

No it doesn't mean that.
 
You are progressing spiritually, hopefully.
 
You recovered from a hopeless state of body and mind many years ago.
 

So have we recovered from alcoholism or just the symptoms?

[MrPatrickThai]

4 minutes ago, impulse said:

A lot of "alcoholics" back then were actually mentally ill and used booze as a coping mechanism.

I could be wrong, but aren't all alcoholics mentally ill?