UK voters should make final Brexit decision if talks with EU collapse: poll

[kwilco]

1 minute ago, mommysboy said:

 

I'll go with scaremongering.

Easier than thinking....

[mommysboy]

2 hours ago, sandyf said:

Agreed, no one knows, so why say something automatically means something else.

If one train of thought is correct regarding Article 127, then TM has a real dilemma, live with it or fight it.

If the UK were to remain in the EEA and SM backed by joining EFTA there is every chance the EU would support such an arrangement, best deal they are going to get.

Norway option in itself is not ideal but could be tailored, better than trying to tailor Chequers.

 

Could it?

 

A tailored version is what we have now, isn't it?

[billd766]

4 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

 

I'll go with scaremongering.

 

Me too.

[kwilco]

The "Norway model"

Double the area of the country, cull the population by 60 million, expand oil and gas reserves by 500%, legalise the killing of whales recognise freedom of movement install EU market regulations on all goods and services and make regular payments to th EU.

Have little or no say in running of the EU itself..

 

[aright]

16 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

 

I'll go with scaremongering.

When we leave the EU I will go with fishmongering. 

[mommysboy]

25 minutes ago, kwilco said:

Easier than thinking....

 

The reality is there will be a lack of growth (as now) and possibly a couple of year's flatlining or recession  Still, the more they delay the more damage. What a sxxxshow!

Edited October 1, 2018 by mommysboy

[mommysboy]

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/video/2018/sep/26/may-put-on-the-spot-over-brexit-how-bad-can-things-get-video

 

Oh dear!

[welovesundaysatspace]

4 hours ago, rixalex said:

an immigration system that treats the people of certain other countries preferentially, allowing them to come and go as they please, while on the other hand, forcing people of certain other countries to jump through often impossible hoops, even just to visit. 

You mean same as nationals from some countries may enter Thailand without a visa while others require one? Or what exactly are you referring to? 

[kwilco]

Sadly the concept of out of the frying pan into the fire seems alien to Brexiteers ...

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/brexit-latest-food-supplies-stockpiling-leaving-eu-negotiations-a8561771.html?utm_term=Autofeed&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook#Echobox=1538318335

[rixalex]

49 minutes ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

You mean same as nationals from some countries may enter Thailand without a visa while others require one? Or what exactly are you referring to? 

No, i wasn't saying that Britiain should model it's immigration policy on Thailand's. Whatever gave you that impression?

[SteveB2]

It's baffling me...

 

Hundreds and hundreds of waffling posts from <deleted> who just don't understand why the majority of the UK population chose to leave the UK.????

 

Let me help you - try and get this into you thick heads.

• Leave supporters couldn't care less about EU customs treaties, laws, trade deals, free trade areas, etc - these and other bureaucracy reasons to stay and are of no interest whatsoever.
• Leave supporters understand only too well that the UK has been a net contributor to the EU for every year since it became a full member.
• Leave supporters think long term - both long term into the future and long term into the past. How much it has cost us to stay in and how much we paid for our original independence.
• Leave supporters understand that there will be some hiccups along the way in the UK after the UK leaves and has to establish new trading relationships. That's OK - we've been there before.
• Leave supporters understand the benefit of having our own democracy, making our own laws and controlling our own borders - and insist that power is fully returned and restored.
• Leave supporters understand that sometimes a fight is needed to re-establish the power of our own governance and borders in British territories. Northern Ireland doesn't worry anyone.

Have a great day.  ????

 

[kwilco]

1 hour ago, SteveB2 said:

It's baffling me...

 

Hundreds and hundreds of waffling posts from <deleted> who just don't understand why the majority of the UK population chose to leave the UK.????

 

Let me help you - try and get this into you thick heads.

• Leave supporters couldn't care less about EU customs treaties, laws, trade deals, free trade areas, etc - these and other bureaucracy reasons to stay and are of no interest whatsoever.
• Leave supporters understand only too well that the UK has been a net contributor to the EU for every year since it became a full member.
• Leave supporters think long term - both long term into the future and long term into the past. How much it has cost us to stay in and how much we paid for our original independence.
• Leave supporters understand that there will be some hiccups along the way in the UK after the UK leaves and has to establish new trading relationships. That's OK - we've been there before.
• Leave supporters understand the benefit of having our own democracy, making our own laws and controlling our own borders - and insist that power is fully returned and restored.
• Leave supporters understand that sometimes a fight is needed to re-establish the power of our own governance and borders in British territories. Northern Ireland doesn't worry anyone.

Have a great day.  ????

 

QED - Leave supporters it seems have the least understanding of any of the issues - including democracy - surrounding Brexit.

Every single point is flawed, but it makes a good summary of Brexit short-sightedness and ignorance of the world around them.

 

One finds it predictable that a Brexiteer feels that these naive and simplistic points that have been gone over time and again seem in his mind to represent an argument.

Edited October 1, 2018 by kwilco

[brewsterbudgen]

It's baffling me...
 
Hundreds and hundreds of waffling posts from who just don't understand why the majority of the UK population chose to leave the UK.[emoji848]
 
Let me help you - try and get this into you thick heads.

• Leave supporters couldn't care less about EU customs treaties, laws, trade deals, free trade areas, etc - these and other bureaucracy reasons to stay and are of no interest whatsoever.
• Leave supporters understand only too well that the UK has been a net contributor to the EU for every year since it became a full member.
• Leave supporters think long term - both long term into the future and long term into the past. How much it has cost us to stay in and how much we paid for our original independence.
• Leave supporters understand that there will be some hiccups along the way in the UK after the UK leaves and has to establish new trading relationships. That's OK - we've been there before.
• Leave supporters understand the benefit of having our own democracy, making our own laws and controlling our own borders - and insist that power is fully returned and restored.
• Leave supporters understand that sometimes a fight is needed to re-establish the power of our own governance and borders in British territories. Northern Ireland doesn't worry anyone.

Have a great day.  [emoji106]
 

And people who voted Leave in 2016 can change their mind, as many undoubtedly have done, now that they are aware of the ramifications of leaving. Those still intent on committing economic suicide can vote Leave again. Changing your mind is a democratic right. Let the people decide.


Sent from my SM-G930F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[dunroaming]

Brexit means different things to different people. Everyone cherry picks their reasons for being for it or against it.

[CG1 Blue]

On ‎9‎/‎30‎/‎2018 at 8:47 AM, aright said:

On ‎9‎/‎30‎/‎2018 at 8:24 AM, tebee said:

Because there is no democratic mandate to leave the SM!

 

You have lost sight of the fact that the Single Market is more than just a free trade zone. Members are treated as one block without borders where businesses can trade on a level playing field. services , goods, investment and people can move around freely.

One of the biggest reasons given for leaving the EU was freedom of movement issues. 

I regard that as a democratic mandate.

Absolutely right.

Also let's not forget that the likes of Cameron and Clegg didn't stop telling the public that a vote to leave was a vote to leave the Single Market and Customs Union.

The Remain side continually overlook this. It's convenient for them to say the public were unaware of this fact.

[nauseus]

53 minutes ago, kwilco said:

QED - Leave supporters it seems have the least understanding of any of the issues - including democracy - surrounding Brexit.

Every single point is flawed, but it makes a good summary of Brexit short-sightedness and ignorance of the world around them.

 

One finds it predictable that a Brexiteer feels that these naive and simplistic points that have been gone over time and again seem in his mind to represent an argument.

 

What is flawed and why? Can you actually present and support an argument instead of this (predictable) proclamation of righteousness?

[mommysboy]

I could live with a no deal disaster even, provided we had a government committed to building a strong economy. 

 

The Tories by nature prefer a 'laissez faire' approach.  Now that may have been ok once upon a time but it doesn't cut now.  So if all they've got in the tank is more tax cuts to the already rich it's a poor look out. Trade deals with Bongo-bongo land are no good either.  Besides given their record in Brexit negotiations probably even BBland will turn us over.

 

This Government is a wet weekend.

Edited October 1, 2018 by mommysboy

[nauseus]

3 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

Absolutely right.

Also let's not forget that the likes of Cameron and Clegg didn't stop telling the public that a vote to leave was a vote to leave the Single Market and Customs Union.

The Remain side continually overlook this. It's convenient for them to say the public were unaware of this fact.

Like a public convenience? 

 

Sorry, just couldn't hold it in. ????

[nauseus]

4 hours ago, kwilco said:

Sadly the concept of out of the frying pan into the fire seems alien to Brexiteers ...

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/brexit-latest-food-supplies-stockpiling-leaving-eu-negotiations-a8561771.html?utm_term=Autofeed&amp;utm_medium=Social&amp;utm_source=Facebook#Echobox=1538318335

Which one is the EU?

[CG1 Blue]

1 hour ago, brewsterbudgen said:

And people who voted Leave in 2016 can change their mind, as many undoubtedly have done, now that they are aware of the ramifications of leaving. Those still intent on committing economic suicide can vote Leave again. Changing your mind is a democratic right. Let the people decide.


Sent from my SM-G930F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

"now that they are aware of the ramifications of leaving"

 

The 'ramifications of leaving' are not yet known. What you really mean is, now that the Remain side have had 2 years trying to scare the public into submission. You're hoping that a 2 year fear mongering campaign is starting to pay dividends.

 

You might be surprised to learn that a lot of Remain voters have since changed their minds, partly due to the behaviour of the EU since we voted to leave.  Many also changed their minds when there was no emergency budget, and no economic Armageddon the day after the vote.

[welovesundaysatspace]

7 hours ago, rixalex said:

No, i wasn't saying that Britiain should model it's immigration policy on Thailand's. Whatever gave you that impression?

That's not what I said. You claimed that the EU has "an immigration system that treats the people of certain other countries preferentially, allowing them to come and go as they please, while on the other hand, forcing people of certain other countries to jump through often impossible hoops, even just to visit." So my question was what you are actually referring to? Is it the fact that there is no country in this world that has the same visa rules for everyone? Or where you referring to something specifically about the EU? 

[billd766]

4 hours ago, brewsterbudgen said:

And people who voted Leave in 2016 can change their mind, as many undoubtedly have done, now that they are aware of the ramifications of leaving. Those still intent on committing economic suicide can vote Leave again. Changing your mind is a democratic right. Let the people decide.


Sent from my SM-G930F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

 

I am one of the people who voted to leave and nothing that the Remainers have come up with so far has made me want to change my vote.

 

I am one of the people who has a vote and will decide.

[Guest]

34 minutes ago, billd766 said:

 

I am one of the people who voted to leave and nothing that the Remainers have come up with so far has made me want to change my vote.

 

I am one of the people who has a vote and will decide.

Let's try how you react to a brexiter, if he can change your mind?

 

[kwilco]

10 hours ago, nauseus said:

Which one is the EU?

Only a Brexiteer would fail to understand the idiom!

Edited October 1, 2018 by kwilco

[rixalex]

9 hours ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

That's not what I said. You claimed that the EU has "an immigration system that treats the people of certain other countries preferentially, allowing them to come and go as they please, while on the other hand, forcing people of certain other countries to jump through often impossible hoops, even just to visit." So my question was what you are actually referring to? Is it the fact that there is no country in this world that has the same visa rules for everyone? Or where you referring to something specifically about the EU? 

Firstly, it's not a claim, it's a fact.

 

Secondly, this is a discussion about the EU and Britain.

 

Britain's current immigration policy is highly discriminatory, unequal and unfair, largely because of the EU. So my question to you is, is your only response to that fact, not, "no it isn't", but rather, "ah yes, but what about Thailand's immigration policy or the policy of other countries?"?

[welovesundaysatspace]

48 minutes ago, rixalex said:

Firstly, it's not a claim, it's a fact. (...) Britain's current immigration policy is highly discriminatory, unequal and unfair, largely because of the EU.

This is a claim, not a fact (unless you can prove your claim). 

 

Quote

So my question to you is, is your only response to that fact, not, "no it isn't", but rather, "ah yes, but what about Thailand's immigration policy or the policy of other countries?"?

Actually, my response was that I asked what you are actually referring to. Because, as far as I am aware, it’s common practice for all countries in this world that visa rules vary depending on nationality of the applicant. So claiming this is “largely because of the EU” isn’t true; you must be dreaming if you believe the UK after Brexit will offer the same visa rules to everyone (or any country in the world would ever do that). 

 

You cannot even call that practice racism as it’s not based on race but rather on visa rules that vary based on groups of countries. Everyone in this world, regardless of his race or nationality, can get a Schengen Visa as long as he fulfills the requirements. 

 

Again, maybe you are referring to something else, but since you seem to prefer to avoid answering my question it’s difficult to understand what you actually mean. 

Edited October 2, 2018 by welovesundaysatspace

[brewsterbudgen]

"now that they are aware of the ramifications of leaving"
 
The 'ramifications of leaving' are not yet known. What you really mean is, now that the Remain side have had 2 years trying to scare the public into submission. You're hoping that a 2 year fear mongering campaign is starting to pay dividends.
 
You might be surprised to learn that a lot of Remain voters have since changed their minds, partly due to the behaviour of the EU since we voted to leave.  Many also changed their minds when there was no emergency budget, and no economic Armageddon the day after the vote.

You could be right. Having another vote is a good way to find out. Let the people decide.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[sandyf]

22 hours ago, billd766 said:

From the BBC News website this morning.

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-45700833

Phillip Hammond said in his speech that it was the job of the UK government to convince the EU that they are wrong and should agree to the Chequers plan, a plan that attempts to keep the UK in the SM without the obligations.

 

So the UK wants to leave the club but they want the club committee to change the club rules so the UK can retain the club benefits without any obligation.

 

About as close to a definition of arrogance as I have ever seen.

[sandyf]

22 hours ago, nauseus said:

 

Facts correct? OK. Free movement of labour was the original concept but that was been expanded and changed to free movement of "people" by the Maastrict Treaty in 1992. There are certain conditions and restrictions but these are difficult to control or are not well applied.

OK, I should have said workers not labour, it is certainly not "people"

 

Free movement of workers is a fundamental principle of the Treaty enshrined in Article 45 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union and developed by EU secondary legislation and the Case law of the Court of Justice. EU citizens are entitled to:

• look for a job in another EU country   
• work there without needing a work permit
• reside there for that purpose
• stay there even after employment has finished
• enjoy equal treatment with nationals in access to employment, working conditions and all other social and tax advantages

EU nationals may also have certain types of health & social security coverage transferred to the country in which they go to seek work (see coordination of social security systems).

Free movement of workers also applies, in general terms, to the countries in the European Economic Area: Iceland, Liechtenstein and Norway.

http://ec.europa.eu/social/main.jsp?catId=457&amp;langId=en

[melvinmelvin]

there are a number acquis in celex that uses the terms movement and people, furthermore you will also find the terms movement and citizen with family

 

maybe wrong but I interpret the latter to include EU national with Thai wife and kids

 

so - rather wider than worker