UK voters should make final Brexit decision if talks with EU collapse: poll

[melvinmelvin]

15 minutes ago, tebee said:

Well, it looks like we might be heading for never-ending transition.

 

 

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/brexit-transition-period-could-last-for-years-cabinet-warned-rk6qrjdj8

 

 

 

 

and whole period with tory and tm as pm , good planning

 

[sandyf]

22 hours ago, vinny41 said:

You can call it want you want but all the leaver voters I know it was quite clear to them that ticking the box to leave meant leaving the eu, leaving the single market and leaving the customs union and Cameron, Clegg Osborne all stated that if you ticket the leave box all of the above applies

Out of Interested what did you thinking the Remaining in the EU box meant

As already posted DC had no authority to make any definitive statement. If leavers knew exactly what was meant when they voted then they would have been perfectly aware that DC could only ever indicate what a future government may or may not do. Off course brexiteers will try and manipulate democracy to their own end.

 

"Out of Interested what did you thinking the Remaining in the EU box meant"  -  do I really need to explain 'inclusive' to you.

[sandyf]

1 hour ago, vinny41 said:

 

No wonder the Germans want to move to another country

 

Thousands of Germans who made Britain their home after the Second World Warare applying for repatriation as the Brexit deadline looms, according to official data.

A growing number of Jewish families and descendants of refugees persecuted by the Nazis are exercising their right to German nationality under the country’s Constitution's Article 116, so they can remain EU citizens. 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-latest-nazi-germany-victims-passports-second-world-world-war-re-a8593316.html

[welovesundaysatspace]

45 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

 

The combination of Labour's stance, the EU's intransigence particularly on the "backstop", and May's "plan" are driving us toward a "no deal" exit.

The EU’s negotiation power and position was very clear from the very beginning on (before the referendum). So were the consequences of a no-deal. You knew what you were going to get. Still you decided to go through with it. 

 

You can whine now that the EU is using its negotiation power and not giving you the fantasy deal you were dreaming of. But that you knew before. So you alone are responsible for the mess, because you decided, despite knowing better, to go through with it.  

[welovesundaysatspace]

45 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

 

The combination of Labour's stance, the EU's intransigence particularly on the "backstop", and May's "plan" are driving us toward a "no deal" exit.

The EU’s negotiation power and position was very clear from the very beginning on (before the referendum). So were the consequences of a no-deal. You knew what you were going to get. Still you decided to go through with it. 

 

You can whine now that the EU is using its negotiation power and not giving you the fantasy deal you were dreaming of. But that you knew before. So you alone are responsible for the mess, because you decided, despite knowing better, to go through with it.  

[vinny41]

4 minutes ago, sandyf said:

Thousands of Germans who made Britain their home after the Second World Warare applying for repatriation as the Brexit deadline looms, according to official data.

A growing number of Jewish families and descendants of refugees persecuted by the Nazis are exercising their right to German nationality under the country’s Constitution's Article 116, so they can remain EU citizens. 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-latest-nazi-germany-victims-passports-second-world-world-war-re-a8593316.html

More Than Half Of Germans Want To Leave The Country For A "More Stable Political Situation"

More than half of Germans living under Merkel's open-border regime want to leave their homeland, according to Die Welt, citing a YouGov survey commissioned by financial services provider Transferwise.

 

• Would you like to live abroad sometime (outside Germany)?

• Compared to two years ago - is it more or less likely that you will live abroad, or is there no difference?

• Which of the following are reasons why you want to move abroad? (Multiple answers possible).

Approximately 1/3 of the respondents say they would like to leave forever, while thirteen percent said that they would prefer to leave for two to five years. Nine percent would stay away for no more than a year. 

The main reason? Germans desire a more stable political situation, and want out. 

Above all, those who can imagine emigration stated that they hoped for a calmer and more relaxed life in another country (38 percent).

Other reasons include the hope of a higher quality of life (33 percent) and better weather (31 percent). -Die Welt (translated)

No wonder Merkel and her CSU allies are suffering massive losses in state elections, while anti-migration populist movements are gaining traction not only in Germany, but across Europe in general. 

https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-10-17/more-half-germans-want-leave-country-more-stable-political-situation

[welovesundaysatspace]

45 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

 

The combination of Labour's stance, the EU's intransigence particularly on the "backstop", and May's "plan" are driving us toward a "no deal" exit.

The EU’s negotiation power and position was very clear from the very beginning on (before the referendum). So were the consequences of a no-deal. You knew what you were going to get. Still you decided to go through with it. 

 

You can whine now that the EU is using its negotiation power and not giving you the fantasy deal you were dreaming of. But that you knew before. So you alone are responsible for the mess, because you decided, despite knowing better, to go through with it.  

[vinny41]

11 minutes ago, sandyf said:

As already posted DC had no authority to make any definitive statement. If leavers knew exactly what was meant when they voted then they would have been perfectly aware that DC could only ever indicate what a future government may or may not do. Off course brexiteers will try and manipulate democracy to their own end.

 

"Out of Interested what did you thinking the Remaining in the EU box meant"  -  do I really need to explain 'inclusive' to you.

You may have posted that in your opinion "DC had no authority to make any definitive statement" at the end of the day that is your opinion  by the way it wasn't only DC here Gove take on the matter

Mr Gove's remarks further clarify the Leave campaign's approach to any future trade deal between Britain and the EU.

His comments rule out any idea of a post-Brexit UK government seeking to replicate a trade deal on the lines of Norway or Switzerland, which offer free access to EU markets, but which also commit those countries to pay contributions to the EU budget and free movement of EU citizens across borders.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36080568

[My Thai Life]

11 minutes ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

The EU’s negotiation power and position was very clear from the very beginning on (before the referendum). So were the consequences of a no-deal. You knew what you were going to get. Still you decided to go through with it. 

 

You can whine now that the EU is using its negotiation power and not giving you the fantasy deal you were dreaming of. But that you knew before. So you alone are responsible for the mess, because you decided, despite knowing better, to go through with it.  

Well considering you were not eligible to vote you seem to know a lot about it.

Except that your quote above is just opinion.

As an impartial on this thread I can assure you that the whining is not coming from the Leave side of the debate.

Edited October 24, 2018 by My Thai Life

[My Thai Life]

30 minutes ago, sandyf said:

As already posted DC had no authority to make any definitive statement. If leavers knew exactly what was meant when they voted then they would have been perfectly aware that DC could only ever indicate what a future government may or may not do. Off course brexiteers will try and manipulate democracy to their own end.

It's fairly obvious that the reverse is true; it's the remainers that are trying to manipulate democracy.

 

The People's Vote took place a couple of years ago; and neither of the main parties supports a 2nd referendum.

 

The remainers seem to love posting Constitution 101 (or their understanding of it). DC did make a definitive statement; and in the last election both parties committed to honour the result. No amount of posting on TVF is going to change that.

 

If you're that unhappy about it then sue DC, and let's see if the judges agree with you.

[My Thai Life]

Labour's 2017 election maifesto:

 

“Labour accepts the referendum result… Labour will seek a Brexit deal that delivers for all regions and nations of the UK.”

 

Worth noting that there were no Labour front benchers on the march last weekend.

 

"The Labour leadership (secretly) wants Brexit to happen. That's why it left Remainers to march alone"

 

 https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/10/22/labour-leadership-secretly-wants-brexit-happen-left-remainers/

 

 

[melvinmelvin]

47 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

Labour's 2017 election maifesto:

 

“Labour accepts the referendum result… Labour will seek a Brexit deal that delivers for all regions and nations of the UK.”

 

Worth noting that there were no Labour front benchers on the march last weekend.

 

"The Labour leadership (secretly) wants Brexit to happen. That's why it left Remainers to march alone"

 

 https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/10/22/labour-leadership-secretly-wants-brexit-happen-left-remainers/

 

 

isn't Labour still sort of in la la land re Brexit, full sm combined with zero free movement of sods

 

I am not 100% on this one but I am reasonably sure I have seen/heard Corbyn saying that if it came to the crunch 

in parliament, Labour would likely vote for a 2nd ref

[Kieran00001]

19 hours ago, nauseus said:

No but manifestos rarely deal with "what ifs". This is a question of responsibility, which Dodgy Dave ducked.

 

The Department for Exiting have had over 600 staff for over 2 years later and they can't come up with a plan.

[Kieran00001]

4 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

isn't Labour still sort of in la la land re Brexit, full sm combined with zero free movement of sods

 

I am not 100% on this one but I am reasonably sure I have seen/heard Corbyn saying that if it came to the crunch 

in parliament, Labour would likely vote for a 2nd ref

 

 It came to crunch in a party vote in late September, they voted to force a GE should May's deal fall through and if that fails then they will support some sort of people's vote.

[tebee]

1 hour ago, My Thai Life said:

It's fairly obvious that the reverse is true; it's the remainers that are trying to manipulate democracy.

 

The People's Vote took place a couple of years ago; and neither of the main parties supports a 2nd referendum.

 

The remainers seem to love posting Constitution 101 (or their understanding of it). DC did make a definitive statement; and in the last election both parties committed to honour the result. No amount of posting on TVF is going to change that.

 

If you're that unhappy about it then sue DC, and let's see if the judges agree with you.

 

1 hour ago, My Thai Life said:

Labour's 2017 election maifesto:

 

“Labour accepts the referendum result… Labour will seek a Brexit deal that delivers for all regions and nations of the UK.”

 

Worth noting that there were no Labour front benchers on the march last weekend.

 

"The Labour leadership (secretly) wants Brexit to happen. That's why it left Remainers to march alone"

 

 https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/10/22/labour-leadership-secretly-wants-brexit-happen-left-remainers/

 

 

 

 

 

So 48 % of the voting population have been deserted by both main parties promising to deliver the impossible.

 

 

This isn't going to end well for democracy in this country whatever the eventual outcome.

 

 

[rixalex]

The answer is that a new referendum does not weaken the position of the UK negotiators, because they are in a weak position already. The option to stay in the EU might actually give them more room to negotiate (if only the UK could make up its mind what it wants.....).
 
And I am not working at Burger King..... Wrong assumption.

The UK isn't in a weak position. You and all the remainers constantly droning on about how it is, is what I was talking about re the 80% rowers doing their upmost to make sure Brexit doesn't happen.

Sent from my SM-G610F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[melvinmelvin]

5 minutes ago, tebee said:

 

 

 

 

So 48 % of the voting population have been deserted by both main parties promising to deliver the impossible.

 

 

This isn't going to end well for democracy in this country whatever the eventual outcome.

 

 

you may be right re that,

but having a 2nd ref with remain as an option would result in very severe damage to UK democracy

 

(calm down tebee, only 5 weeks to go now)

 

[tebee]

7 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

you may be right re that,

but having a 2nd ref with remain as an option would result in very severe damage to UK democracy

 

(calm down tebee, only 5 weeks to go now)

 

I would prefer that the whole silly idea was abandoned without having to resort to a second referendum, but I can see the attraction of one as it save the government having to lose face. 

 

5 weeks ? 

[melvinmelvin]

4 minutes ago, rixalex said:

The UK isn't in a weak position. You and all the remainers constantly droning on about how it is, is what I was talking about re the 80% rowers doing their upmost to make sure Brexit doesn't happen.

Sent from my SM-G610F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

disagree

 

UK is in a very very weak spot,

since long UK has no decision power in these negos all the decision power is with EU

the only power uk has is that she can say no to EU proposals

 

that i would call an ultra weak position,

uk hasn't much to sell, eu doesn't ask for jags landrovers rolss fish and chips airbus wings or Belhaven

they want committed satang and thats about it

 

 

[kwilco]

The average Brexiteer is as ever breathtakingly  blinkered in their perception of the immediate effects that Brexit is going to have and is already having.

The government, on the other hand is fully aware of the impending shitstorm.

 

Once Dover is restricted in any way at allthe....... as little as a delay of minutes - it will start to strangle the UK.......

 

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=2193134667677933&id=1498276767163730

 

With regards to Brexit, the government and Dover citizens who voted leave this salutary tale should help to clarify the situation.....

 

You don't need brains to be a Boss.

 

When the body was first created, all the parts wanted to be Boss. The brain said, "I should be Boss because I control all of the body's responses and functions."

The feet said, "We should be Boss since we carry the brain about and get him to where he wants to go."

The hands said, "We should be the Boss because we do all the work and earn all the money."

Finally, the <deleted> spoke up. All the parts laughed at the idea of the <deleted> being the Boss. So, the <deleted> went on strike, blocked itself up and refused to work.

Within a short time, the eyes became crossed, the hands clenched, the feet twitched, the heart and lungs began to panic, and the brain fevered. Eventually, they all decided that the <deleted> should be the Boss, so the motion was passed. All the other parts did all the work while the Boss just sat and passed out the shit!

Moral Of The Story: You don't need a brain to be a Boss----any <deleted> will do.

[melvinmelvin]

42 minutes ago, tebee said:

I would prefer that the whole silly idea was abandoned without having to resort to a second referendum, but I can see the attraction of one as it save the government having to lose face. 

 

5 weeks ? 

sorry, my mistake - only 4 weeks now

 

[nauseus]

23 hours ago, Orac said:

 

 

My point was also that the referendum set no timetable - that was entirely down to TM and should not be put on Cameron’s head.

If you think I am trying to absolve Cameron you have misunderstood me as I think he must carry a fair proportion of the blame for the mess things are at the moment but, equally, TM must also take responsibility for what has gone on since she took on the leadership.

I have never been a fan of Cameron and voted for David Davies to be leader over DC when I had the opportunity though, in hindsight, not sure if he would have been any better.


Sent from my iPad using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

 

 

Davis suffered a lot of criticism but we know now that he was not free to do his job as Brexit Secretary - this was becoming obvious more than a year ago. Later it was revealed that Robbins might as well have been given the title.

 

If Davis had become PM then I think we would at least have had some clarity by now, even though I know the remainers would not like it. But the EU may have responded differently with a more "direct" approach to the negotiations instead of May's strong speeches, followed by weak negotiations.

 

The fumbled 2017 GE showed how unsuitable May is as a PM, for whatever reason that may be.  

[nauseus]

1 hour ago, Kieran00001 said:

 

The Department for Exiting have had over 600 staff for over 2 years later and they can't come up with a plan.

Maybe.. but that's nothing to do with what i said.

[nauseus]

4 hours ago, brucec64 said:

I think you have to look back a little further to see the impact of Brexit on the pound 1.60 down to 1.30 USD.

 

I am quite aware of the data from 2009. But my post was re today and tomorrow (which is now yesterday and today!). 

[mommysboy]

5 hours ago, rixalex said:

As stated before, when you have around 80% of the rowers in a boat rowing away from shore, it's not much wonder that the 20% rowing towards it don't make good progress.

Yes the 20% haven't done well, and so carry some of the blame, but had all 100% put aside their reservations and respected the vote, as they promised they would, and worked together finding solutions rather than finding problems, we wouldn't be where we are now.

Sent from my SM-G610F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

I don't think the Government has respected the vote.

 

 

Edited October 24, 2018 by mommysboy

[nauseus]

1 hour ago, Kieran00001 said:

 

 It came to crunch in a party vote in late September, they voted to force a GE should May's deal fall through and if that fails then they will support some sort of people's vote.

Yep, Labour would finally complete their abandonment of their GE manifesto, anything for a way in.

Then we're really stuffed - Brexit or not.

 

 

[mommysboy]

Every time Brexiteers meet reality they blame someone else.  They seem to be saying they can do anything they want.

 

Try giving the public the free(er) trade deal that was mandated.

[tebee]

There is an argument going round that Brexit will have to happen, to fail or succeed, and be seen beyond doubt to fail or succeed, before politics in the UK will ever get back to normal.

 

I disagree.

 

The problem is Brexit is such a nebulous thing and means different things to different people. 

We are only ever going to get to try one version.

If it fails, 99% of Brexiters are going to say it failed because we picked the wrong flavour.

It being a success is the only way to closure.

 

I consider that an exceedingly unlikely possibility.

 

I consider that under the current government and the article 50 process to be an absolute impossibility.

 

So we are doomed to decades of turmoil in politics.

 

No one will ever get around to solving the root causes  of the problems in British society that the result steamed from.   

[nauseus]

3 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

Every time Brexiteers meet reality they blame someone else.  They seem to be saying they can do anything they want.

 

Try giving the public the free(er) trade deal that was mandated.

Oh? I think we need a link for that last claim.

[welovesundaysatspace]

1 hour ago, rixalex said:

The UK isn't in a weak position.

I see some Brexiteers still haven’t returned from lala land but prefer to live in denial. 

 

3 hours ago, My Thai Life said:

Well considering you were not eligible to vote you seem to know a lot about it.

It might surprise you, but some people in fact like to see beyond their own nose.  

 

Quote

Except that your quote above is just opinion.

No, it was all over the European press and even told you by the Remain campaign. Everyone knew the EU would not give you anything.

 

2 hours ago, My Thai Life said:

It's fairly obvious that the reverse is true; it's the remainers that are trying to manipulate democracy.

Would love to know how you “manipulate democracy”; if anything, it’s Brexiteers trying to block democracy by denying people to vote on this again. They know people would vote against this, otherwise they could with confidence say to go ahead.