UK voters should make final Brexit decision if talks with EU collapse: poll

[tebee]

2 hours ago, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

Fair enough yes. I know you're not in league with SW, and you make the point clear. But I'm not sure even genuine Brexiteers are necessarily the only ones who will be voting against this codswallop, the SNP hate it - look at Nicola Sturgeon's remarks about it, and then there's gotta be a fair few Labour MPs who can be thrown in there too, lets just hope they don't go party-political, but instead vote with their hearts and try to show a bit of responsibility for a change. Let's see.

....

 

Everybody hates the deal - it is neither remaining or leaving. But it could still pass. Why ? Brecause for both sides the conceived alternatives to the deal  are worse than the deal.

 

Leavers are worried we might end up abandoning brexit or going for a people's vote. 

 

Remainers(and the soft leavers) are worried we might leave with no deal.

 

There may be enough abstentions for the deal to pass.

 

It's also possible it might fail the first time  and then pass later when no-deal panic sets in. 

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

22 minutes ago, adammike said:

Retromug

Aaah...OK!

 

Jacob Rees-Mogg, hahahaha! Was news, to me, at least.

Edited November 26, 2018 by CanterbrigianBangkoker

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

7 minutes ago, tebee said:

There may be enough abstentions for the deal to pass.

Should be punishable parliamentary misconduct too, on this occasion at least, IMHO.

Edited November 26, 2018 by CanterbrigianBangkoker

[talahtnut]

2 hours ago, Grouse said:

How very American of you. It's a pity you misunderstand Frost's point!

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mending_Wall

 

https://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2010/05/sarah-palin-misinterprets-robert-frost/57248/

 

You clearly learnt nothing from our European friends. How sad.

 

If you are reduced to quoting Americans, please consider "Tear down that wall, Mr Gorbechov!"

Dear old Grouse, Tip the whole bottle in... your reading

stuff that is not written or, replying to another post.

[tebee]

1 hour ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

right, but C B - look at this

 

where do you find Brexiteers (hard or soft) at heart:

 

some, quite a few I think - within labour

a whole bunch within tory

some in SNP

and I guess a few in DUP

LibDem, yes, some

green? dunno - just 1 MP?

 

can they be activated? think step 1 must be to replace TM

 

now,

Tory is obviously not too unhappy with the deal

the 1922 team is not overly busy with opening letters

they have plenty of time left for afternoon Belhavens in Westminster

 

then, you have parliament and motion of no conf

what does parliament say? zilch

what does parliament do? zilch

 

double zilch points towards deal being accepted

 

if Brexiteers want to get on top of this they must do something, not later but NOW

 

what does blowjob do? zilch

what does Farage do? zilch

what does retromug do? zilch

what does Raab do? zilch

what does dodgy davies do? zilch

 

you know, when these guys are interviewed by msm,

they say that deal is crap TM is crap

but that does not move foggy islands in any direction

they must DO

 

 

It's all back to the problems caused by TM's invoking of article 50 without a plan.

 

Still no one else has come up with a coherent idea of what we want from brexit - there is nothing to replace this plan with if it is rejected. 

 

So if the plan is rejected what happens ? 

 

We could revoke art 50 and remain, but TM has said she will not countenance that, so we would need a new Tory leader - who?

 

We could do a no deal Brexit, but the country is woefully prepared for that - there is just not time left to organize all that needs to be done. So even if a no deal brexit could have worked the one we will get won't . Chaos, job losses and shortages do not get politicians re-elected. A bad brexit will destroy itself and the country will clamour to rejoin the EU on whatever terms are offered.

 

So this bad, bad deal becomes the most attractive option.

 

Don't worry - I hate it too

 

 

[nontabury]

4 hours ago, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

 

Spot on Bill and well articulated! 

 

'Nigel Farage was trying to explain to Nick Clegg that the EU was determined to build an EU military force and Nick Clegg flat out denied it'.

 

Just one of the many things that were steadfastly denied, with those who raised the point being jeered, sneered at & denigrated for the very mention. I remember in the live televised debate, Clegg (the prat) flat out denying it and accusing Nige of being both a loon and a subversive for the mere suggestion. Not even 3 years later and here we are with Tusk, Juncker and Merkel all publicly lauding the upcoming policy. Typical - duplicitous worms, the lot.

Correct,and what else have the Bureaucrats in Brussels got in store for the people of the E.u. when we finally leave the hated E.u.

[melvinmelvin]

1 hour ago, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

Aaah...OK!

 

Jacob Rees-Mogg, hahahaha! Was news, to me, at least.

yep

 

at any rate as they say in Yorkshire,

 

I might come across as I am really worked up about this,

am not, really

 

not important to me if UK remains or breaks

however, I would be strongly opposed to UK entering EFTA.

UK remaining is not really exciting for outsiders,

more exciting and interesting to see how UK would do outside EU - probably reasonably OK after a while

 

now,

what really annoys me is watching badly handled policy processes

there has been quite a lot of that over the past 2-3 years - and it just continues

 

why I am shouting forget differences - pool resources -do something

a - TM has access to endless resources

b - brexiteers do not

c - right now after yesterday's heads of state political nod to deal and cover

     UK is in limbo - its a vacuum

d - nothing of significance is likely to happen before parliament starts formal handling of the deal

e - when parliament gets going, anything can potentially happen, nobody knows what - unclear

 

so, use the limbo, fill it with something - get on top - get a hand on the tiller

 

 

 

Edited November 26, 2018 by melvinmelvin

[talahtnut]

5 hours ago, Grouse said:

Nice to see you all snuggling together for comfort and warmth. Bless ????

Dear old Grouse, you have had such a busy day grousing,

never mind, we are all here to 'tuck you up' comfortably.

Edited November 26, 2018 by talahtnut
addition

[melvinmelvin]

btw,

 

was it today or yesterday? forget,

 

Bangkok Post likened Brexit to a Thelma and Louise exit - for those who remember that movie

 

 

[tebee]

27 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

yep

 

at any rate as they say in Yorkshire,

 

I might come across as I am really worked up about this,

am not, really

 

not important to me if UK remains or breaks

however, I would be strongly opposed to UK entering EFTA.

UK remaining is not really exciting for outsiders,

more exciting and interesting to see how UK would do outside EU - probably reasonably OK after a while

 

now,

what really annoys me is watching badly handled policy processes

there has been quite a lot of that over the past 2-3 years - and it just continues

 

why I am shouting forget differences - pool resources -do something

a - TM has access to endless resources

b - brexiteers do not

c - right now after yesterday's heads of state political nod to deal and cover

     UK is in limbo - its a vacuum

d - nothing of significance is likely to happen before parliament starts formal handling of the deal

e - when parliament gets going, anything can potentially happen, nobody knows what - unclear

 

so, use the limbo, fill it with something - get on top - get a hand on the tiller

 

 

 

They should have started 2 and a half years ago ....

[JAG]

45 minutes ago, nontabury said:

Correct,and what else have the Bureaucrats in Brussels got in store for the people of the E.u. when we finally leave the hated E.u.

I'm just guessing of course, but my money (if I had any) would be on consolidating the common currency (Euro) with a common, centrally controlled fiscal (taxation and budgets) policy. After all, one is essentially meaningless without the other.

 

After that, a common European judicial and legal system?

 

Both will be presented as "tidying up the way in which the union is run". Really a task for the Commission, no real need to involve national governments - who will thus pass into effective irrelevance...

Edited November 26, 2018 by JAG

[tebee]

 

[melvinmelvin]

 

Today I read in the Swedish msm Dagens Nyheter;

 

they don't say bluntly that the deal is a bad deal, but they are clear that the deal is dictated by EU 

 

they also say that the EU heads of state are in awe over Barnier's achievements and they want him as

the next Chair of the Commission when Juncker's tenure ends next year

(apparently, Macron is not too happy about that)

 

   

[evadgib]

19 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

Today I read in the Swedish msm Dagens Nyheter;

 

they don't say bluntly that the deal is a bad deal, but they are clear that the deal is dictated by EU 

 

they also say that the EU heads of state are in awe over Barnier's achievements and they want him as

the next Chair of the Commission when Juncker's tenure ends next year

(apparently, Macron is not too happy about that)

 

   

Maggie would have left within a week of the referendum long before Miller & Co had a 'Baldrick'.

Edited November 26, 2018 by evadgib

[bomber]

4 hours ago, melvinmelvin said:

right, fair enough

 

but you should keep in mind that for the past 3 years or so the UK public (including MPs) have been

drowned in all the horrible scenarios and consequences that will surface if UK leaves, the dungeons are nigh!

this kind of marketing has an effect - also on MPs

 

agree that the deal is crappy, in my view largely parliaments own fault

 

now, shooting down the deal and go for hard Brexit does not have the required traction in Westminster,

me thinks

 

ditching deal AND TM and renegotiate? time is getting short

ain't many hours left between now and Brexit

 

of course, now TM is shouting every 3 minutes that re-negos is a big no no, cannot be done

many, including MPs will tend to believe her

I disagree with that

think the door for further neg. is ajar

 

EU does not want a hard crash out Brexit

(several reasons for that)

 

you say the EU doesnt want a hard brexit,how do you know this? yes VW/Mercedes may sell a few less cars but no big deal iam sure they will cope just fine as for JC thinking he can deliver a better deal ???????????? he is on spacedust as are the brexit leaders or whats left of them,anyway the germans know many high end jobs are coming their way even with the present deal,far too many businesses will of lost confidence in the UK and even the ones that stay will still be looking at moving in the future,just watch the big 4 car manufacturer's gradually scale down their operations in the UK and for good measure it seems we are just entering a worldwide downturn,the gamble of brexit with a no deal would economical suicide,the UK is not capable of making things to sell the the world even with weakened currency,we cannot pay workers £0.50 per hour,we are at a disadvantage being an island on the western edge of europe,unions still have a lot of power,in years to come we will manufacture even less our car industry destroyed itself with the help of the unions and it needed Jap/german brains and investment to rekindle it brexit has done its best to try and destroy it again,will this nation of fools never learn 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[bomber]

48 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

Today I read in the Swedish msm Dagens Nyheter;

 

they don't say bluntly that the deal is a bad deal, but they are clear that the deal is dictated by EU 

 

they also say that the EU heads of state are in awe over Barnier's achievements and they want him as

the next Chair of the Commission when Juncker's tenure ends next year

(apparently, Macron is not too happy about that)

 

   

i dont think any brits care,who the next PM of the UK is going to be is more important,the favourite at present is JC....he makes the likes of juncker,Barnier and Macron look like Santa Claus

[melvinmelvin]

27 minutes ago, bomber said:

i dont think any brits care,who the next PM of the UK is going to be is more important,the favourite at present is JC....he makes the likes of juncker,Barnier and Macron look like Santa Claus

 

27 minutes ago, bomber said:

i dont think any brits care,who the next PM of the UK is going to be is more important,the favourite at present is JC....he makes the likes of juncker,Barnier and Macron look like Santa Claus

 

well,

if Corbyn is that bad and if he will be next PM it should be of some comfort to Brits

to have Santa Clause chairing the Commission

since current plan is that the UK will continue to deal with the Commission for years to come.

 

[mommysboy]

'Reports also emerged Ms May will challenge Jeremy Corbyn to a debate in the coming days over her Brexit deal which he has – on multiple occasions – said his party will vote down in the Commons.'

 

Not a very wise thing for May to do - she has made a number of tactical blunders imo.  Not only is JC far better at this sort of thing, nobody wants the deal.

[Grouse]

5 hours ago, rixalex said:

Firstly, regarding the benefits of being in the EU no longer being of concern to you, from all you've stated about your circumstance, I don't think that's true, is it.

Secondly, regarding your "altruistic dreams" for others, what percentage of people living in the Britain actually WANT to do what you have done? I agree, it's great for those who DO want to live in the EU (outside of Britain), but we're talking about a couple of a percent of the population, and for the sake of them, and you, and your family, and your sister, the other 98% or so of people living in Britain are paying a certain cost for you to enjoy your dream. So yes, it's selfish.

Sent from my SM-G610F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

Interesting rebuttal 

 

I don't see how my moves in the past have disadvantaged anyone

 

In many ways, wealth is the number of degrees of freedom you have; the choices you have, the "doors" that are available to you

 

Shutting off opportunity is unwise. For the 98% you mention, if they failed to pursue opportunities in Europe, they are unlikely to take the world by storm!

 

Anyway, good response!

[melvinmelvin]

40 minutes ago, bomber said:

 

 

I don't know, it is my view.

 

That view is shared by several Scandinavian msm, no point studying UK msm re this, 

they are too worked up

my French, Spanish and German is getting too rusty for msm reading.

 

EU also says that they do not want any no deal crash.

 

Some reasons for that:

 

Of course EU is interested in considerable amounts of import/export re UK

     at least they want their Grouse and Glenlivet and to get rid of brie and edam.

 

crash Brexit will create quite some havoc re goods passing borders, brie and medicine will pile up

     will serve nobody's interest

 

tremendous problems re transport unless deals are made in time, air-road-rail-marine mode transport

     will suffer greatly

will create real problems for UK unless sorted in advance

 

severe environmental challenges in the Channel unless deal in advance 

 

the rest of the world will not understand why it is necessary to let UK suffer this way

     will be a major  face/trust /confidence problem for EU, they don't want that

 

and a host of other reasons

 

 

 

[Grouse]

4 hours ago, talahtnut said:

Why do you often, so narcissistically boast of your

education, and believe that others are incapable of

comprehending such an 'advanced' concept as brexit.

Your argument is merely a  'stakeholders beef'.

 

Better not use words that you dont really understand. My humour is self deprecating and I am actually quite self effacing (with the obvious exception of education).

 

I am proud of my education and it has benefitted me throughout my life. In addition I read broadly and in depth. I thoroughly recommend both.

 

I don't tolerate and in fact despise fools. People should read. Always. Learning never stops.

 

Finally, I m not really a stakeholder now. I just don't like to see my country being brought low by idiots 

Edited November 26, 2018 by Grouse

[melvinmelvin]

28 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

'Reports also emerged Ms May will challenge Jeremy Corbyn to a debate in the coming days over her Brexit deal which he has – on multiple occasions – said his party will vote down in the Commons.'

 

Not a very wise thing for May to do - she has made a number of tactical blunders imo.  Not only is JC far better at this sort of thing, nobody wants the deal.

 

yeah, agree -

 

my guess is also that image wise Corbyn would fare much better than May in such a debate.

(won't say why though, this thread won't like it)

 

[Grouse]

4 hours ago, talahtnut said:

Dear old Grouse, Tip the whole bottle in... your reading

stuff that is not written or, replying to another post.

"There is an old saying, Good fences make good neighbours."

 

Did you or did you not post the above? You misunderstood your own quote 

[evadgib]

53 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

'Reports also emerged Ms May will challenge Jeremy Corbyn to a debate in the coming days over her Brexit deal which he has – on multiple occasions – said his party will vote down in the Commons.'

 

Not a very wise thing for May to do - she has made a number of tactical blunders imo.  Not only is JC far better at this sort of thing, nobody wants the deal.

I'm no fan of TM but she eats him for breakfast every Wednesday during PMQs!

[Grouse]

4 hours ago, CanterbrigianBangkoker said:

 

BJ = Boris Johnson or BoJo. Give me a hint - Retromug?

 

If all you can add to the conversation are snide remarks, misinformation and woeful grammar then maybe you should heed your own advice? Do us all a favour!

The games up! The new CON acolytes can't do the Telegraph crossword! 

 

1 across. Twenty nasal hundredweight in reverse. 

 

4 letters

[mommysboy]

17 minutes ago, evadgib said:

I'm no fan of TM but she eats him for breakfast every Wednesday during PMQs!

Just shows how perceptions can differ.  I would say Corbyn has been remarkably tame lately.  My prediction would be a hands down win for Corbyn.  Away from the script, May is in trouble, whereas Corbyn truly excels.

Edited November 26, 2018 by mommysboy

[Wanderlust]

I think President Macron may just have tipped the scales quite massively towards May's deal being voted down in Parliament, and enhanced the prospect of a No Deal exit - https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/nov/25/eu-leaders-back-theresa-mays-brexit-deal-in-brussels

[tebee]

 

 

 

[mogandave]

Better not use words that you dont really understand. My humour is self deprecating and I am actually quite self effacing (with the obvious exception of education).
 
I am proud of my education and it has benefitted me throughout my life. In addition I read broadly and in depth. I thoroughly recommend both.
 
I don't tolerate and in fact despise fools. People should read. Always. Learning never stops.
 
Finally, I m not really a stakeholder now. I just don't like to see my country being brought low by idiots 

A legend in his own mind...

Tell us more about the education, basket weaving was it?

[billd766]

6 hours ago, sandyf said:

That is all that has ever been suggested, closer co-operation under national responsibility. Anything else is a distortion in an attempt to support a particular point of view.

You surprise me again believing anything Nigel Farage has to say.

And NATO - how reliable is that with the unpredictable calling the shots.

 

On Thursday, he arrived late  — and apparently furious — at the North Atlantic Council, NATO’s top political decision-making body, and hijacked a meeting that was already in progress with the presidents of Ukraine and Georgia. Taking the floor, he warned of “grave consequences” if allies do not quickly ramp up their spending, and threatened that the U.S. could “go our own way” if they do not meet his demands.

https://www.politico.eu/article/trump-threatens-to-pull-out-of-nato/

I don't take much notice of what Trump tweets anymore.

 

He seems to believe that he is the supreme person in the world when in reality the US government is. 

 

He believes that if he says then things will happen, and sometimes they do but most of the time it is tempered by reality.

 

IMHO he is little but a blowhard (blow·hard/ˈblōˌhärd/noun

INFORMAL•NORTH AMERICAN

a person who blusters and boasts in an unpleasant way.

"a bunch of pompous blowhards trying to get on the news"

 

and the majority of the time he does NOT get his own way.