UK voters should make final Brexit decision if talks with EU collapse: poll

[kwilco]

12 hours ago, Grouse said:

In all fairness, Nauseus posted a list. Mostly intangibles except that we would save the membership fees. This is true but I think the fees are modest

Fees are to join the club, the benefits outweigh the fees.

 

Concepts of sovereignty are quite simply false 

 

anything else is just schoolboy fairytales - as you say, nebulous and intangible largely based on vague concepts of xenophobia.

 

So still waiting for those real benefits ....not really as there aren't any........ 

 

This is the nightmare version of the US civil war.

 

 

Edited September 14, 2018 by kwilco

[aright]

1 hour ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

I’m just reminding you and other Brexiteers of the facts, because you seem to be rather economical with the truth. 

 

The referendum: leave the EU

The Brexiteer: leave the EU + XYZ 

As opposed to the alternative facts......

The referendum: leave the EU

The Remainer: Should we subvert the democratic will of the people there is no need to leave the EU if we effectively use hypocrisy, contradiction, contrariness and willful blindness. 

 

[nauseus]

5 hours ago, kwilco said:

Fees are to join the club, the benefits outweigh the fees.

 

Concepts of sovereignty are quite simply false 

 

anything else is just schoolboy fairytales - as you say, nebulous and intangible largely based on vague concepts of xenophobia.

 

So still waiting for those real benefits ....not really as there aren't any........ 

 

This is the nightmare version of the US civil war.

 

 

Feel free to criticise and accuse without explanation or justification. That's OK. I'm used to it. 

[rixalex]

9 hours ago, tebee said:

 

As I've said before , the problem we have now is nobody knows how to "do" Brexit. We have 7 months to think of a plan, get everybody to agree, implement it , recruiting all the staff we need and build all the necessary infrastructure. It's not going to happen.

 

There is not even enough agreement to implement the transition period.

 

So the choice is going to come down to crashing out  with no deal or abandoning it.

 

No deal will cause chaos . Peoples jobs will be lost, business destroyed. If it comes down to a choice of honoring an advisory referendum or letting the country disintegrate into anarchy  which do you think the politicians will choose? Which do you think the politicians should choose?

 

Ending up in a chaotic brexit were people suffer will cause that party to be unelectable for a generation or more. I can't see any party choosing willful oblivion, though I can see the current shower letting it happen by inaction and paralysis. 

 

Surely anybody who wants Brexit can't want this chaotic mess as all it will do is strengthen the hand of those that want to rejoin. 

If it comes down to a choice of honoring an advisory referendum or letting the country disintegrate into anarchy  which do you think the politicians will choose? Which do you think the politicians should choose?

 

Sit down. Take a deep breath. Calm yourself. Read those sentences again. Now, do you really think anyone seriously believes what you wrote? That the country could "disintegrate into anarchy". ?!?!?

 

With the exception perhaps of remain extremists, nobody is going to take you seriously when you say something like that. It's just hyperbolic nonsense. Sorry but it is. You do your side of the argument no favours whatsoever. People just think, ok, here we go again; project fear.

 

Now, if it comes down to a choice for the politicians of honouring the referendum and the promise they made to let the people decide, or leaving the EU with no deal and inflicting a degree of economic hardship on the country, what do i think they will choose? Unless there is a very clear and obvious shift in public opinion, and by that i mean it would have to be VERY clear, not just a few polls suggesting the remain side making a few gains, i think they'll stand by their word to deliver what they promised, because to not do so, will have much more dire consequences for them politically and for the country democratically, than whatever damage is inflicted by a no deal exit.

[Chomper Higgot]

1 hour ago, rixalex said:

If it comes down to a choice of honoring an advisory referendum or letting the country disintegrate into anarchy  which do you think the politicians will choose? Which do you think the politicians should choose?

 

Sit down. Take a deep breath. Calm yourself. Read those sentences again. Now, do you really think anyone seriously believes what you wrote? That the country could "disintegrate into anarchy". ?!?!?

 

With the exception perhaps of remain extremists, nobody is going to take you seriously when you say something like that. It's just hyperbolic nonsense. Sorry but it is. You do your side of the argument no favours whatsoever. People just think, ok, here we go again; project fear.

 

Now, if it comes down to a choice for the politicians of honouring the referendum and the promise they made to let the people decide, or leaving the EU with no deal and inflicting a degree of economic hardship on the country, what do i think they will choose? Unless there is a very clear and obvious shift in public opinion, and by that i mean it would have to be VERY clear, not just a few polls suggesting the remain side making a few gains, i think they'll stand by their word to deliver what they promised, because to not do so, will have much more dire consequences for them politically and for the country democratically, than whatever damage is inflicted by a no deal exit.

"If it comes down to a choice of honoring an advisory referendum or letting the country disintegrate into anarchy  which do you think the politicians will choose? Which do you think the politicians should choose?"

 

To put that in context, the term 'Project Fear' was an invention of the Leave Campaign.

 

 

The thought of all those old folk rampaging through the streets while the rest of the nation goes about earning the money to pat their pensions is terrifying. 

 

 

[rixalex]

16 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

"If it comes down to a choice of honoring an advisory referendum or letting the country disintegrate into anarchy  which do you think the politicians will choose? Which do you think the politicians should choose?"

 

To put that in context, the term 'Project Fear' was an invention of the Leave Campaign.

 

 

The thought of all those old folk rampaging through the streets while the rest of the nation goes about earning the money to pat their pensions is terrifying. 

 

 

Teebee brought us the hyperbole, and now you, bringing up the rear with the patronising condescension.

 

If the remain argument isn't one, it's the other.

[sandyf]

13 hours ago, tebee said:

It was representative democracy that took the decision to ask the public what they thought.

 

The brexiteers idea of democracy is to give the public what they don't want, irrespective of what was thought.

[sandyf]

12 hours ago, vogie said:

Parliament voted for the right to have a referendum, the then foreign secretary said "the decision about our membership should be taken by the British people, not by Whitehall Beaurocrats, and certainly not by Brussel Eurocrats, not even by Government Ministers or Parliamenterians in this chamber."

Surely it can't be any simpler to explain, anybody disagreeing with that IMO is only doing so because they didn't get their own way. It is time to respect democracy.

 

The 'democracy' in action.

 

Boris Johnson has urged MPs to focus on dismantling the Chequers deal rather than ousting Theresa May, days after Brexiteers met to plot her downfall.

Around 50 Tory MPs spent nearly an hour devising ways to replace Ms May on Tuesday evening amid anger over the Chequers plan for Brexit.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/boris-johnson-next-tory-leader-conservative-theresa-may-lord-heseltine-a8538461.html

[Srikcir]

15 minutes ago, sandyf said:

The 'democracy' in action.

 

Boris Johnson has urged MPs to focus on dismantling the Chequers deal rather than ousting Theresa May, days after Brexiteers met to plot her downfall.

Around 50 Tory MPs spent nearly an hour devising ways to replace Ms May on Tuesday evening amid anger over the Chequers plan for Brexit.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/boris-johnson-next-tory-leader-conservative-theresa-may-lord-heseltine-a8538461.html

'too many cooks spoil the broth' - If too many people try to control, influence, or work on something, the final product will be worse as a result. https://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/too+many+cooks+spoil+the+broth

[Grouse]

10 hours ago, kwilco said:

Fees are to join the club, the benefits outweigh the fees.

 

Concepts of sovereignty are quite simply false 

 

anything else is just schoolboy fairytales - as you say, nebulous and intangible largely based on vague concepts of xenophobia.

 

So still waiting for those real benefits ....not really as there aren't any........ 

 

This is the nightmare version of the US civil war.

 

 

I think it is wise to try and understand the opposing view point. Our membership fee of about 9 billion is, IMO, good value. However we do have a net trade deficit so the simple view is we are better off out. I of course disagree; the benefits  we get for <4% of GDP are well worth it.

[Grouse]

4 hours ago, rixalex said:

If it comes down to a choice of honoring an advisory referendum or letting the country disintegrate into anarchy  which do you think the politicians will choose? Which do you think the politicians should choose?

 

Sit down. Take a deep breath. Calm yourself. Read those sentences again. Now, do you really think anyone seriously believes what you wrote? That the country could "disintegrate into anarchy". ?!?!?

 

With the exception perhaps of remain extremists, nobody is going to take you seriously when you say something like that. It's just hyperbolic nonsense. Sorry but it is. You do your side of the argument no favours whatsoever. People just think, ok, here we go again; project fear.

 

Now, if it comes down to a choice for the politicians of honouring the referendum and the promise they made to let the people decide, or leaving the EU with no deal and inflicting a degree of economic hardship on the country, what do i think they will choose? Unless there is a very clear and obvious shift in public opinion, and by that i mean it would have to be VERY clear, not just a few polls suggesting the remain side making a few gains, i think they'll stand by their word to deliver what they promised, because to not do so, will have much more dire consequences for them politically and for the country democratically, than whatever damage is inflicted by a no deal exit.

So let's vote on the terms of the final deal! I think Theresa's deal will NOT get passed by Parliament and that should be the end of it. However, because of this mess, we should indeed have a referendum to ratify parliament's decision.

[Grouse]

2 hours ago, rixalex said:

Teebee brought us the hyperbole, and now you, bringing up the rear with the patronising condescension.

 

If the remain argument isn't one, it's the other.

You forgot arrogance you peasant! ?

[aright]

3 hours ago, sandyf said:

The brexiteers idea of democracy is to give the public what they don't want, irrespective of what was thought.

The Remainers idea of democracy is to stay in an  undemocratic, unelected, unaccountable  Union which progressively ignores voters, irrespective of their concerns, and becomes more right wing and unmanageable.

Edited September 15, 2018 by aright

[welovesundaysatspace]

11 hours ago, aright said:

As opposed to the alternative facts......

No “alternative facts”. Or would you honestly claim that any brexiteer would be ok with the U.K. leaving the EU but agreeing in a deal to the four freedoms and accepting EU regulation?

 

11 hours ago, aright said:

The Remainer: Should we subvert the democratic will of the people there is no need to leave the EU if we effectively use hypocrisy, contradiction, contrariness and willful blindness. 

Most remainers probably would be ok with leaving the EU but entering into an agreement as the one mentioned above. So it’s really not the remainers “subvert the democratic will of the people”, it is Brexiteers trying to use one referendum to ruin the whole country. 

[aright]

5 minutes ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

No “alternative facts”. Or would you honestly claim that any brexiteer would be ok with the U.K. leaving the EU but agreeing in a deal to the four freedoms and accepting EU regulation?

 

Most remainers probably would be ok with leaving the EU but entering into an agreement as the one mentioned above. So it’s really not the remainers “subvert the democratic will of the people”, it is Brexiteers trying to use one referendum to ruin the whole country. 

As opposed to adopting a single currency which is very advantageous to one country ,insentient to five or six others and of significant disadvantage to a dozen others, which will eventually lead imo to ruin 20 countries. There all ready press indicators that Germany, France  and the Netherlands no longer regard Italians as people but as loans.

Leavers feel it is better to travel on the right road not the wrong way.

[rixalex]

So let's vote on the terms of the final deal! I think Theresa's deal will NOT get passed by Parliament and that should be the end of it. However, because of this mess, we should indeed have a referendum to ratify parliament's decision.

Without getting into the debate of the need for another vote, nobody has yet explained to me how it's possible to have another vote without it completely undermining our negotiating position.

Now I appreciate that for remainers this is not something they give two hoots about since the last thing they want is the EU giving us a half decent deal, but for everybody else who respects the outcome of the referendum and wants to make the best of Brexit, having the EU able to call all the shots safe in the knowledge that they'll be a vote and we'll end up returning tails between our legs, that IS a massive problem.

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[welovesundaysatspace]

2 minutes ago, rixalex said:

Without getting into the debate of the need for another vote, nobody has yet explained to me how it's possible to have another vote without it completely undermining our negotiating position.

What “negotiation position” do you see undermined? The U.K. doesn’t have any bargaining power in this. The U.K. can only lose big times or super-big times. You still can’t see this even after 2 years? 

[rixalex]

What “negotiation position” do you see undermined? The U.K. doesn’t have any bargaining power in this. The U.K. can only lose big times or super-big times. You still can’t see this even after 2 years? 

No bargaining power at all?!

What an absurd thing to say. Remainers in general seem very big on self-loathing.

Just be done with it and go live in Brussels.

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[welovesundaysatspace]

3 minutes ago, rixalex said:

No bargaining power at all?!

Oh wait, I forgot the bargaining power that exists in the phantasy world of the Brexiteers. The same world in which a Deal would be super easy and give the U.K. all the benefits plus more without any obligations and a 350mm per week for the NHS on top. Keep living in la-la land. 

[aright]

19 minutes ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

Oh wait, I forgot the bargaining power that exists in the phantasy world of the Brexiteers. The same world in which a Deal would be super easy and give the U.K. all the benefits plus more without any obligations and a 350mm per week for the NHS on top. Keep living in la-la land. 

Are you a trained negotiator?

A classical negotiation mistake, you have bargained the UK down on the basis of your knowledge which is mainly media opinion and tittle tattle and you need to be reminded neither party has left the table yet. My experience of negotiation...entirely in the USA (Management/Union contracts and T&C's) kept all conversations and interim half agreements behind closed doors …..any leaks caused unnecessary, invariably, incorrect speculation and was not helpful to either side.

I will not prejudge the outcome …….that would be pointless.....I will wait to see the final document then have my say.

Good or bad? Don't know...too soon to say. We pay a team to negotiate let them get on with it.

[sandyf]

21 minutes ago, aright said:

We pay a team to negotiate let them get on with it.

Nothing wrong with that, if they knew what they were trying to negotiate. The withdrawal agreement and trade are 2 separate issues, something the UK has refused to accept. The withdrawal agreement would have been done and dusted a long time ago in TM had not muddied the waters, so much for trained negotiators.

[aright]

49 minutes ago, sandyf said:

Quote

 

Nothing wrong with that, if they knew what they were trying to negotiate. The withdrawal agreement and trade are 2 separate issues, something the UK has refused to accept. The withdrawal agreement would have been done and dusted a long time ago in TM had not muddied the waters, so much for trained negotiators.

Why do you think the UK has an obligation to accept anything the EU says...Recalcitrance  shows we are independent and won't be bullied (very important in negotiations) and what's wrong with muddying the waters as a purposeful, confusing negotiating ploy. Negotiations aren't a friendly chat.   I can't speak for the current situation...I don't know in specific terms what they are trying to negotiate and  can only speak from personal experience but would be surprised if it was greatly different  inside the negotiating panel and the responsible body they report to.  My panel would  have received firstly Trade Union "demands for consideration" and   "negotiation guidelines for comment" followed later by instructions on goal management   process and performance goals. None of this info would have been shared with anyone outside the panel, the body they report to and the CEO.The last thing Management or the TU wanted was Chinese Whispers in the factory...….they are not productive.

I do accept however ,because of human nature, the general public like to have their 5 cents in the general debate.....I do it myself.

[My Thai Life]

1 hour ago, sandyf said:

The withdrawal agreement and trade are 2 separate issues,

Eh? How can you determine a separation without knowing the general framework of the separation?

Edited September 15, 2018 by My Thai Life

[Guest]

1 hour ago, aright said:

Why do you think the UK has an obligation to accept anything the EU says...Recalcitrance  shows we are independent and won't be bullied (very important in negotiations) and what's wrong with muddying the waters as a purposeful, confusing negotiating ploy. Negotiations aren't a friendly chat.   I can't speak for the current situation...

Likewise EU doesn't have to accept anything what UK says.. I suppose UK is desperately trying to find the Achilles heel of EU. So for, what we have seen, it haven't. I don't think it will.

 

Naturally UK is fully independent on these negotiations, after all it's they who sit on the other side of the table. 

 

This is however an attempt to find out a solution for future co-operation, together. Negotiations might not be a friendly chat, but no no means negotiations are time to burn the bridges.. or collapse the tunnel in this case.

[My Thai Life]

On 9/14/2018 at 6:06 AM, kwilco said:

Still not one thing from the quitlings of what is GOOD about Brexit.

They and the government agree that UKs economy will crash

We will be subservient to WTO.

We will be less able to travel

We have to stockpile food.

We will be short of labour.

Pensions and healthcare will suffer

Industries will shrink 

Commerce will shrink or leave

> Many things are good about Brexit, but you either haven't read them, or have closed your eyes to them. I myself have posted at least 5 categories of benefit, on this thread.

> Crash? There's more than one narrative on this. By the way, the UK housing market has crashed 3 times in living memory. Carney's 35% worst case scenario will benefit as many as it harms.

> Subservient to the WTO? How?

> Less able to travel? I guess people who don't travel much believe this. Are you in Thailand? (This is a Thai forum - did you travel here via Schengen?)

> Stockpile food? Maybe Brie and Roquefort.

> Seasonal labour rules can be adjusted almost instantaneously.

> Some industries will contract, some will expand.

> Some commerce will contract, some will expand.

 

Oh I forgot "pensions and healthcare". NHS will have less pressure, and freedom to hire any foreign staff it wishes to. Pensions - staking your all on a government pension has never been a good idea.

 

 

Edited September 15, 2018 by My Thai Life

[Grouse]

3 hours ago, rixalex said:

Without getting into the debate of the need for another vote, nobody has yet explained to me how it's possible to have another vote without it completely undermining our negotiating position.

Now I appreciate that for remainers this is not something they give two hoots about since the last thing they want is the EU giving us a half decent deal, but for everybody else who respects the outcome of the referendum and wants to make the best of Brexit, having the EU able to call all the shots safe in the knowledge that they'll be a vote and we'll end up returning tails between our legs, that IS a massive problem.

Sent from my SM-G610F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

Our negotiating position??? It's in tatters man.

 

Look here's what I would do 

 

Leave the EU but stay in CU and SM. This would require some legal quick step but you get the point. It's the Common Market Light.

 

Brussels wasn't built in a day, do it in stages. Look at this first move as foreplay. If it turns out to be the main course, so be it.

 

Personally, I prefer to remain and lead reorganisation from within. But, if you want a compromise, this is it.

 

May can resign 

 

change the remaining links piecemeal over coming years.

[Grouse]

1 hour ago, My Thai Life said:

Eh? How can you determine a separation without knowing the general framework of the separation?

Divorce and then remarry the first woman again

 

(I'm not an idiot, I didn't do it a third time)

 

It was about sovereignty by the way....still unclear about the advantages or disadvantages 

[Grouse]

Nobody mentions opportunity loss

 

With the USA being a loose cannon, it seems to me that The City is well placed to continue to be the financial power centre of the EU. Why break it? They should at least develop a petro-Euro for Persia.

[rixalex]

Our negotiating position??? It's in tatters man.
 
Look here's what I would do 
 
Leave the EU but stay in CU and SM. This would require some legal quick step but you get the point. It's the Common Market Light.
 
Brussels wasn't built in a day, do it in stages. Look at this first move as foreplay. If it turns out to be the main course, so be it.
 
Personally, I prefer to remain and lead reorganisation from within. But, if you want a compromise, this is it.
 
May can resign 
 
change the remaining links piecemeal over coming years.

The only response you can muster to the problem of how another vote doesn't cut the legs off our negotiators, is that the negotiation is in tatters so who cares.

In other words, you have no idea. Just like every other remainer before you on this thread.

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[My Thai Life]

26 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Our negotiating position??? It's in tatters man.

 

Look here's what I would do 

 

Leave the EU but stay in CU and SM.

> Negotiating position. Negotiations haven't really really started yet. Or maybe we're at the end of the beginning, but still not at the beginning of the end ?

> What you would do ? is not that relevant. Don't take it personally.

> Staying in the CU and SM isn't leaving.

 

As I've stated many times, I'm just as happy personally with a leave or stay, though leave offers more business opportunities for me I probaby won't have time to follow them up.

 

My main reason for leaning towards  remain is that the EU will be much weaker and more unbalanced, both internally and externally, without us.

 

My main reasons for leaning towards leave is that (i) the EU is increasingly encroaching upon national sovereignties (ii) the end game of the EU is unclear (iii) the EU could easily move right or left (iv) the biggest growth is outside of the EU (v) the EU is racked with internal problems (the Euro, immigration policy...) (v) Free Trade (vi) abiding by the outcome of the referendum.

 

 

Edited September 15, 2018 by My Thai Life