UK voters should make final Brexit decision if talks with EU collapse: poll

[Grouse]

6 minutes ago, rixalex said:

The only response you can muster to the problem of how another vote doesn't cut the legs off our negotiators, is that the negotiation is in tatters so who cares.

In other words, you have no idea. Just like every other remainer before you on this thread.

Sent from my SM-G610F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

OK Exlax, you win

 

just ponder why ALL the smart people (who are not crooks) want to remain. 

 

Think about that

[Grouse]

8 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

What you would do ? is not that relevant. Don't take it personally.

So there is no point to TV?

 

Shocking behaviour!

 

May you be cast out into the darkness and far away from the goodness and wisdom that is TV

[My Thai Life]

8 minutes ago, Grouse said:

So there is no point to TV?

 

Shocking behaviour!

 

May you be cast out into the darkness and far away from the goodness and wisdom that is TV

Not sure what this comment is about Grouse!

 

Coming back to the point. I understand from some of your previous posts that you have  businesses in engineering, maybe microchip engineering. If these are dependent on integrated JIT with EU companies then you are in the line of fire. If not, then could you let me know the downside that you are worried about for your own businesses please?

 

The vast majority of UK SMEs don't trade with the EU, and they will therefore see their red tape reduced when we leave. This is a clear and tangible benefit.

Edited September 15, 2018 by My Thai Life

[rixalex]

OK Exlax, you win
 
just ponder why ALL the smart people (who are not crooks) want to remain. 
 
Think about that

I prefer to make up my own mind, than follow other people, be they supposedly smart, dim, crooked or otherwise.

Anyway, thanks for at least being the first remainer to concede that there is no way to have another vote without it sabotaging our negotiating position.

Sent from my SM-G610F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[Grouse]

23 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

Not sure what this comment is about Grouse!

 

Coming back to the point. I understand from some of your previous posts that you have  businesses in engineering, maybe microchip engineering. If these are dependent on integrated JIT with EU companies then you are in the line of fire. If not, then could you let me know the downside that you are worried about for your own businesses please?

 

The vast majority of UK SMEs don't trade with the EU, and they will therefore see their red tape reduced when we leave. This is a clear and tangible benefit.

It was a facetious comment based on your comment that comments on Thai Visa were worthless ?

 

I used to be in semiconductors (TI for example) but now I'm in electrical engineering here in Thailand and East Asia.

 

Brexit has no business impact for me but having lived through most of the post war years including Thatcher, I am sensitive to the likely impact of Brexit on scientific and engineering business. I benefitted hugely from European free movement and I want others to benefit. I have been fortunate in many respects and I hate to see the UK going down so far, so fast. We should lead the EU not go skulking off, particularly when there is so much global turmoil. We should be a rock.

Edited September 15, 2018 by Grouse

[My Thai Life]

23 minutes ago, Grouse said:

It was a facisious comment based on your comment that comments on Thai Visa were worthless ?

 

I used to be in semiconductors (TI for example) but now I'm in electrical engineering here in Thailand and East Asia.

 

Brexit has no business impact for me but having lived through most of the post war years including Thatcher, I am sensitive to the likely impact of Brexit on scientific and engineering business. I benefitted hugely from European free movement and I want others to benefit. I have been fortunate in many respects and I hate to see the UK going down so far, so fast. We should lead the EU not go skulking off, particularly when there is so much global turmoil. We should be a rock.

Facetious? I didn't say TV comments are worthless.

 

But let's get to the substantive points. I have worked in over 25 countries. I could have done that with or without freedom of movement within the EU. Those of us who have used the EU's freedom of movement will know that in many respects it's not much free-er than getting a work permit in a 3rd country. Actually, depending on the 3rd country, the EU is more cumbersome.

 

The UK has never led the EU. We have always been peripheral to it, despite Blair's spin.

 

Some might argue that by leaving we are being a rock - a rock to free trade.

 

The EU is economically a protectionist bullying cartel. And politically it is an ever-expanding disaster.

 

My main sadness is that the European project as represented by the EU has failed.

 

My other sadnesses are that Putin and Trump are rubbing their hands in glee. This is why we need a mutually positive relationship with our European partners. We are and always have been European, we have no choice in the matter. This is why we need to keep the big picture in mind.

 

 

Edited September 15, 2018 by My Thai Life

[Grouse]

13 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

Facetious? I didn't say TV comments are worthless.

 

But let's get to the substantive points. I have worked in over 25 countries. I could have done that with or without freedom of movement within the EU. Those of us who have used the EU's freedom of movement will know that in many respects it's not much free-er than getting a work permit in a 3rd country. Actually, depending on the 3rd country, the EU is more cumbersome.

 

The UK has never led the EU. We have always been peripheral to it, despite Blair's spin.

 

Some might argue that by leaving we are being a rock - a rock to free trade.

 

The EU is economically a protectionist bullying cartel. And politically it is an ever-expanding disaster.

 

My sadness is that the European project as represented by the EU has failed.

 

 

Sensible comments 

 

I have some comments

 

Taking up employment in the EU (twice) is MUCH easier than say the USA (3 times)

 

Yes, the UK has always been led rather than leading the EU. That's a shame. We could and should have done better

 

The EU is certainly a cartel it's a common market. We should protect our own workers, farmers (and actually all species) from the excesses of the world outside. I for one am happy to pay what is required to have the land and the animals raised on it taken care of decently. Uncontrolled free markets are NOT a great idea.

 

The EU has done well for a long time. I will retire to Denmark.

[My Thai Life]

51 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Taking up employment in the EU (twice) is MUCH easier than say the USA (3 times)

 

Yes, the UK has always been led rather than leading the EU. That's a shame. We could and should have done better

 

The EU is certainly a cartel it's a common market. We should protect our own workers, farmers (and actually all species) from the excesses of the world outside. I for one am happy to pay what is required to have the land and the animals raised on it taken care of decently. Uncontrolled free markets are NOT a great idea.

 

The EU has done well for a long time. I will retire to Denmark.

> I've worked in the USA, in various capacities, for 4 years total over 20 years. It was never harder than working in the EU - I've worked in most EU countries, with the lamentable exception of the Nordics.

 

> The UK could never have led the EU, as it's outside of the Euro, Schengen, and landmass. Our political and legal systems are also substantially different from those of many EU countries,

 

> The CAP does not take care of the land, despite its claims and exorbitant costs. Google Greenpeace EU for evidence (I'm not saying the UK would have done better alone).

 

> The EU has done well for whom? German engineering and French farming is how it started. And these interest groups continue to distort EU policy. Google cartel and German car makers for evidence of Merkel's complicity in the fraudulent emissions scam perpetrated by some German car makers.

 

> Half a dozen countries or so are now in open revolt. And the underlying problems of the EU can only get worse.

Edited September 15, 2018 by My Thai Life

[Grouse]

34 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

> I've worked in the USA, in various capacities, for 4 years total over 20 years. It was never harder than working in the EU - I've worked in most EU countries, with the lamentable exception of the Nordics.

 

> The UK could never have led the EU, as it's outside of the Euro, Schengen, and landmass. Our political and legal systems are also substantially different from those of many EU countries,

 

> The CAP does not take care of the land, despite its claims and exorbitant costs. Google Greenpeace EU for evidence (I'm not saying the UK would have done better alone).

 

> The EU has done well for whom? German engineering and French farming is how it started. And these interest groups continue to distort EU policy. Google cartel and German car makers for evidence of Merkel's complicity in the fraudulent emissions scam perpetrated by some German car makers.

 

> Half a dozen countries or so are now in open revolt. And the underlying problems of the EU can only get worse.

Thanks for the intelligent response 

 

Did you get s green card? Not easy I thought.

 

We should have led Europe well before the Euro. My support is for the EU not the Euro. Currently we have a get out clause in perpetuity.

 

CAP is not good I agree. Better now but still not good.

 

It started with iron, steel and coal.

 

An engineer would tell you that the The specified emissions standards were a farce. Any engineer could drive s cart and horses through them. The Smericans were just mad as they could not keep up with the technology. The same ideas were used by French, Italian and Japanese companies.

 

I think most of Europe has done well over the last 60 odd years! Certainly we have avoided wars amongst ourselves

 

You are clearly a rational Leave supporter. Thanks for the chat. Off to bed now....

[welovesundaysatspace]

2 hours ago, My Thai Life said:

> I've worked in the USA, in various capacities, for 4 years total over 20 years. It was never harder than working in the EU 

Maybe that was 20 years ago. Two close (European) friends of mine are working in the US. Getting their green cards was incredibly complicated, and for one even pure lottery. (And I am not even talking about low-skilled people looking for a job; both had a job offer already, one is a Harvard-grad who worked for BCG, the other one a PhD from a reputable European research institution). 

[kwilco]

9 hours ago, My Thai Life said:

> Many things are good about Brexit, but you either haven't read them, or have closed your eyes to them. I myself have posted at least 5 categories of benefit, on this thread.

> Crash? There's more than one narrative on this. By the way, the UK housing market has crashed 3 times in living memory. Carney's 35% worst case scenario will benefit as many as it harms.

> Subservient to the WTO? How?

> Less able to travel? I guess people who don't travel much believe this. Are you in Thailand? (This is a Thai forum - did you travel here via Schengen?)

> Stockpile food? Maybe Brie and Roquefort.

> Seasonal labour rules can be adjusted almost instantaneously.

> Some industries will contract, some will expand.

> Some commerce will contract, some will expand.

 

Oh I forgot "pensions and healthcare". NHS will have less pressure, and freedom to hire any foreign staff it wishes to. Pensions - staking your all on a government pension has never been a good idea.

 

 

QED - not a sign of anything good and a total head in the sand altitude to what are the likely ramifications.

Stockpile food? Maybe Brie and Roquefort. - no general foods - already happening flour etc

 

> Seasonal labour rules can be adjusted almost instantaneously. - the restrictions of free movement introduce prohibitive red tape

> Some industries will contract, some will expand. - name one

> Some commerce will contract, some will expand. - name one

 

Edited September 15, 2018 by kwilco

[aright]

14 minutes ago, kwilco said:

 

> Some industries will contract, some will expand. - name one

> Some commerce will contract, some will expand. - name one

 

Business Secretary opens world’s largest glass furnace in UK

Posted on 22 Jun 2018 by Marc Hauschild

 

The Business Secretary, Greg Clark has opened container glass manufacturer Encirc’s new £40m, 206sqm industrial oven furnace at its facility in Cheshire.

 

https://www.themanufacturer.com/articles/business-secretary-opens-worlds-largest-glass-furnace-in-uk/

 

 

New £100m 'global centre of rail excellence' set to be built in Wales

It would mean manufacturers would not have to send trains across Europe for testing

 

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/new-100m-global-centre-rail-14821753

 

 

Press release

UK exports remain at record high in the year to June 2018

Latest trade figures show demand for British goods and services is higher than ever, with exports at record high of £621 billion in the year to June 2018.

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/uk-exports-remain-at-record-high-in-the-year-to-june-2018

 

UK leads the world for FinTech investment in 2018

Brexit fears did not stop the UK’s financial technology industry attracting over $16bn (£12bn) of investment in the first half of 2018, more than any other country.

 

http://www.theactuary.com/news/2018/08/uk-leads-the-world-for-fintech-investment-in-2018/

[sandyf]

15 hours ago, aright said:

Why do you think the UK has an obligation to accept anything the EU says...

Brexit mentality in a nutshell, think they can do what they want.

The withdrawal agreement is the technical aspect of leaving the EU and must be ratified by the EU parliament. Bottom line, no withdrawal agreement unless the UK accepts what the EU says.

We realise that there are those that do not see the need for any agreement, more than happy to inflict absolute chaos on the nation. Without agreements the UK will come to a standstill.

We can only hope that common sense prevails and agreement is reached.

[vogie]

3 hours ago, kwilco said:

QED - not a sign of anything good and a total head in the sand altitude to what are the likely ramifications.

Stockpile food? Maybe Brie and Roquefort. - no general foods - already happening flour etc

 

> Seasonal labour rules can be adjusted almost instantaneously. - the restrictions of free movement introduce prohibitive red tape

> Some industries will contract, some will expand. - name one

> Some commerce will contract, some will expand. - name one

 

"not a sign of anything good and a total head in the sand altitude to what are the likely ramifications."

 

Were you high as a kite when you wrote this? ????

[billd766]

1 hour ago, sandyf said:

Brexit mentality in a nutshell, think they can do what they want.

The withdrawal agreement is the technical aspect of leaving the EU and must be ratified by the EU parliament. Bottom line, no withdrawal agreement unless the UK accepts what the EU says.

We realise that there are those that do not see the need for any agreement, more than happy to inflict absolute chaos on the nation. Without agreements the UK will come to a standstill.

We can only hope that common sense prevails and agreement is reached.

 

quote from your post. "We can only hope that common sense prevails and agreement is reached." For that to happen common sense must apply to both sides.

 

I doubt that the UK will come to a complete standstill after Brexit.

 

The problem is one of negotiation and in the last couple of years from what I have seen and read is that every proposal that the UK has put to the EU has been rejected for some reason or another. So there has not really been ANY negotiation since Brexit started.

 

Negotiation  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negotiation

 

It is aimed to resolve points of difference, to gain advantage for an individual or collective, or to craft outcomes to satisfy various interests. It is often conducted by putting forward a position and making concessions to achieve an agreement. The degree to which the negotiating parties trust each other to implement the negotiated solution is a major factor in determining whether negotiations are successful.

 

https://www.skillsyouneed.com/ips/negotiation.html

 

In order to achieve a desirable outcome, it may be useful to follow a structured approach to negotiation. For example, in a work situation a meeting may need to be arranged in which all parties involved can come together.

The process of negotiation includes the following stages:

Preparation

Discussion

Clarification of goals

Negotiate towards a Win-Win outcome

Agreement

Implementation of a course of action

 

Read more at: https://www.skillsyouneed.com/ips/negotiation.html

 

IMHO if one side is not willing to negotiate then no agreement can be reached.

 

From what I have seen and read over the last couple of years the attitude of the EU negotiating team has been "Whatever you want, the answer's NO".  

[transam]

2 minutes ago, billd766 said:

 

quote from your post. "We can only hope that common sense prevails and agreement is reached." For that to happen common sense must apply to both sides.

 

I doubt that the UK will come to a complete standstill after Brexit.

 

The problem is one of negotiation and in the last couple of years from what I have seen and read is that every proposal that the UK has put to the EU has been rejected for some reason or another. So there has not really been ANY negotiation since Brexit started.

 

Negotiation  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negotiation

 

It is aimed to resolve points of difference, to gain advantage for an individual or collective, or to craft outcomes to satisfy various interests. It is often conducted by putting forward a position and making concessions to achieve an agreement. The degree to which the negotiating parties trust each other to implement the negotiated solution is a major factor in determining whether negotiations are successful.

 

https://www.skillsyouneed.com/ips/negotiation.html

 

In order to achieve a desirable outcome, it may be useful to follow a structured approach to negotiation. For example, in a work situation a meeting may need to be arranged in which all parties involved can come together.

The process of negotiation includes the following stages:

Preparation

Discussion

Clarification of goals

Negotiate towards a Win-Win outcome

Agreement

Implementation of a course of action

 

Read more at: https://www.skillsyouneed.com/ips/negotiation.html

 

IMHO if one side is not willing to negotiate then no agreement can be reached.

 

From what I have seen and read over the last couple of years the attitude of the EU negotiating team has been "Whatever you want, the answer's NO".  

They want UK....CASH.....

[Guest]

14 minutes ago, transam said:

They want UK....CASH.....

Cash is good. It's used to pay the earlier agreed responsibilities.

 

But the question is, does UK have anything else to offer?

[transam]

10 minutes ago, oilinki said:

Cash is good. It's used to pay the earlier agreed responsibilities.

 

But the question is, does UK have anything else to offer?

Offer who...?

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, transam said:

Offer who...?

The discussion was about negotiations between EU and UK. 

[transam]

7 minutes ago, oilinki said:

The discussion was about negotiations between EU and UK. 

I prefer to think about UK citizens and citizens that come from EU countries with their hands out...

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, transam said:

I prefer to think about UK citizens and citizens that come from EU countries with their hands out...

People have tendency to venture where they see opportunities, like for example to China.

 

After Brexit is done, I don't think you'll need to worry about masses coming to Britain anymore. 

[rixalex]

Brexit mentality in a nutshell, think they can do what they want.
The withdrawal agreement is the technical aspect of leaving the EU and must be ratified by the EU parliament. Bottom line, no withdrawal agreement unless the UK accepts what the EU says.
We realise that there are those that do not see the need for any agreement, more than happy to inflict absolute chaos on the nation. Without agreements the UK will come to a standstill.
We can only hope that common sense prevails and agreement is reached.

Remain mentality in a nutshell with regards the negotiation is, if the EU tells us to jump, we ask how high. If the EU tells us to bend over, we ask how far. And if Britain tells the EU something, "who does Britain think it is?!"

Re the comment about those who are happy enough to see no agreement reached, can there really be people out there who still don't understand the need for the other side to know that the opposition is ready to walk away if no concessions are met? It's hardly complicated stuff.

Sent from my SM-G610F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[Rimmer]

Some off topic bickering and baiting posts also replies have been removed

[aright]

3 hours ago, sandyf said:

Brexit mentality in a nutshell, think they can do what they want.

The withdrawal agreement is the technical aspect of leaving the EU and must be ratified by the EU parliament. Bottom line, no withdrawal agreement unless the UK accepts what the EU says.

We realise that there are those that do not see the need for any agreement, more than happy to inflict absolute chaos on the nation. Without agreements the UK will come to a standstill.

We can only hope that common sense prevails and agreement is reached.

We can do what we want, we are not chained to what the EU wants. In negotiation showing a willingness to walk away from the table is a strength/power indicator but you must be prepared for statement of intent consequences. Leaving the table is a two edged sword, almost but not quite the last bark, but negotiators on both sides will have identified the consequences (in this case determined by our Government I would think) and will have been given red lines before that stage is reached. Tactically both sides will be doing what they can with what they have.

Common sense is not bandied around much in negotiation ……….decisions are made on the basis of values.....It's not hard to make decisions when you know what your values are. 

But yes lets  hope an amicable agreement is reached...…. which in the main will satisfy the Governments perceived ability to sell its political , social and economic goals to keep them in power, but not necessarily mine, but it won't be influenced by people whose arguments show they are afraid of entering this brand new world.

 

[SheungWan]

2 hours ago, billd766 said:

 

quote from your post. "We can only hope that common sense prevails and agreement is reached." For that to happen common sense must apply to both sides.

I doubt that the UK will come to a complete standstill after Brexit.

The problem is one of negotiation and in the last couple of years from what I have seen and read is that every proposal that the UK has put to the EU has been rejected for some reason or another. So there has not really been ANY negotiation since Brexit started.

Negotiation  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negotiation

It is aimed to resolve points of difference, to gain advantage for an individual or collective, or to craft outcomes to satisfy various interests. It is often conducted by putting forward a position and making concessions to achieve an agreement. The degree to which the negotiating parties trust each other to implement the negotiated solution is a major factor in determining whether negotiations are successful.

https://www.skillsyouneed.com/ips/negotiation.html

In order to achieve a desirable outcome, it may be useful to follow a structured approach to negotiation. For example, in a work situation a meeting may need to be arranged in which all parties involved can come together.

The process of negotiation includes the following stages:

Preparation

Discussion

Clarification of goals

Negotiate towards a Win-Win outcome

Agreement

Implementation of a course of action

Read more at: https://www.skillsyouneed.com/ips/negotiation.html

IMHO if one side is not willing to negotiate then no agreement can be reached.

From what I have seen and read over the last couple of years the attitude of the EU negotiating team has been "Whatever you want, the answer's NO".  

If there is one thing clear from the above it is that some Brexiteers haven't got the faintest clue the context of what is being negotiated other then some generalist concepts on a totally abstract level. No wonder car crash is where they are at.

[SheungWan]

4 hours ago, sandyf said:

Brexit mentality in a nutshell, think they can do what they want.

The withdrawal agreement is the technical aspect of leaving the EU and must be ratified by the EU parliament. Bottom line, no withdrawal agreement unless the UK accepts what the EU says.

We realise that there are those that do not see the need for any agreement, more than happy to inflict absolute chaos on the nation. Without agreements the UK will come to a standstill.

We can only hope that common sense prevails and agreement is reached.

There is the possibility of an agreement being reached, but the Hard Brexiteers will want to scupper any possible agreement now at the Party Conference and in addition, post-agreement, threaten to vote in an unholy alliance with Labour to bring the Government down.

[dick dasterdly]

16 hours ago, My Thai Life said:

> I've worked in the USA, in various capacities, for 4 years total over 20 years. It was never harder than working in the EU - I've worked in most EU countries, with the lamentable exception of the Nordics.

 

> The UK could never have led the EU, as it's outside of the Euro, Schengen, and landmass. Our political and legal systems are also substantially different from those of many EU countries,

 

> The CAP does not take care of the land, despite its claims and exorbitant costs. Google Greenpeace EU for evidence (I'm not saying the UK would have done better alone).

 

> The EU has done well for whom? German engineering and French farming is how it started. And these interest groups continue to distort EU policy. Google cartel and German car makers for evidence of Merkel's complicity in the fraudulent emissions scam perpetrated by some German car makers.

 

> Half a dozen countries or so are now in open revolt. And the underlying problems of the EU can only get worse.

"The CAP does not take care of the land, despite its claims and exorbitant costs. Google Greenpeace EU for evidence (I'm not saying the UK would have done better alone)."

 

Couldn't agree more.  For some reason uk small farmers sold out to big business farmers - who now receive eu CAP money for producing less and renewing the hedgerows they destroyed.

 

Small French farmers managed to hold out against this 'big business' outrage - and I respect them for that.

 

We've gone through paying farmers to produce far too much (by guaranteeing them too high a high price for their produce - hence the various eu 'mountains/lakes') to paying them for the opposite!

[dick dasterdly]

3 hours ago, transam said:

I prefer to think about UK citizens and citizens that come from EU countries with their hands out...

I feel the same way to a large extent, as I care more about the poorest paid uk citizens - rather than their employers who are prefer to keep their wages as low as possible - and so support cheap labour from poorer countries.

[nauseus]

10 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

"The CAP does not take care of the land, despite its claims and exorbitant costs. Google Greenpeace EU for evidence (I'm not saying the UK would have done better alone)."

 

Couldn't agree more.  For some reason uk small farmers sold out to big business farmers - who now receive eu CAP money for producing less and renewing the hedgerows they destroyed.

 

Small French farmers managed to hold out against this 'big business' outrage - and I respect them for that.

 

We've gone through paying farmers to produce far too much (by guaranteeing them too high a high price for their produce - hence the various eu 'mountains/lakes') to paying them for the opposite!

But the French farmers still get the biggest subsidies from the EU.  I don't respect that. 

[nauseus]

1 hour ago, SheungWan said:

There is the possibility of an agreement being reached, but the Hard Brexiteers will want to scupper any possible agreement now at the Party Conference and in addition, post-agreement, threaten to vote in an unholy alliance with Labour to bring the Government down.

 Broad statement, narrow mind.