Unwanted foreigners -or simply underfunded?

[Scouse123]

The uproar and subsequent debate surrounding the change of policy by Thai immigration regarding proof of pension letters, and the money asked to be placed in a bank either 400K or 800K, has to lead many to question if they are now unwanted in Thailand.

 

I am unsure really. Is it just moving with the changing times?

 

Unfortunately for many here, retirees and those married to Thai people actually make up these days in 2018 only a very small fraction in the grand scheme of things regards the Thai economy. Those people who have been here years and invested in houses and condos, cars or even have Thai families, be they married or not or not, no doubt will be horrified by all of this. Many have sunk their life savings in, many have already lost theirs, and fallen victim to scams from bar girls and boys and now ' survive in the sun ' as they have burned their bridges back in their home countries and have nothing left to return to.

 

As Thailand progresses and develops, immigration rules will change for reasons we know and reasons we do not. The whole idea of funds in an account was there to protect Thailand and that foreigners were not burdening the country and could prove enough funds to live here or survive and benefit the local economy. Apparently, many were circumventing the system and obtaining these letters by deception and this is the reason the loophole has been closed.

 

I cannot really see it changing unless Thailand is determined to squeeze every last baht that foreigners bring to South East Asia. I wouldn't put that one past them though. They are renowned for sudden changes of policy and U-turns and feel no embarrassment or loss of face by doing so, especially where money is concerned.

 

Threats by expats of moving elsewhere to other countries in the region do not concern them one iota. They simply do not care, you are wasting your breath. As already stated, it is ' small fry ' to them in the overall economy, although life changing for the individual.

 

We then have the expats moaning and complain about currency manipulations etc every time the AUD, USD, EURO or GBP goes down against the THB. We then have a flurry on the board of money saving ideas like switching off aircon, shopping in the evenings to get last minute cheap buys, comparing prices of a bottle of beer at a Mom and Pop store to a 7-11, and so on.

 

Could it be that the expat has simply got his mathematics wrong regards the cost of living and are trying to survive on an inadequate pension or funds?

 

The only option I see is for people in this predicament is to move to a country where the visa restrictions and proof of income required are much easier than Thailand. Vietnam has just announced that they are opening up even domestic businesses to foreign ownership and takeovers. This certainly will appeal to many. Cambodia has much easier rules for retirees as does the Philippines.

 

If you are just underfunded, accept it and move to a country where you can afford to be. I cannot see Thailand changing course to suit any of us mere foreigners unless they NEED US!

[sirineou]

 Though I appreciate the effort, I don't see why we need another thread to state an opinion  that could had just as easily being expressed in one of the existing threads.

 

[Pattaya46]

# deleted # not funny for some people.

Edited November 4, 2018 by Pattaya46

[NCC1701A]

26 minutes ago, Scouse123 said:

to question if they are now unwanted in Thailand.

it is not that you are not unwanted. you just don't count.

 

well at least now some will see the light and finally realize the baht is not going to "correct" and the expat contributions to the Thai economy have no effect in the MINDS of the people running the government. 

 

no matter how many houses you have bought or iPhones or scooters.

[Scouse123]

9 minutes ago, Pattaya46 said:

Not any change announced. 

So end of topic. 

 

Well, there most certainly is, otherwise, the Embassies would not have stated that they could no longer issue the letters as they did not comply with what Thai immigration requires them to do.

 

But the main point of this is not about that, it is about the fact that when there is a slight currency fluctuation many start a tirade of being unwanted, moving to other places,  etc.

 

You shouldn't be having to contemplate moving if the price of a bowl of noodles or breakfast cereal increases, it's normal for things to move up with inflation in every economy. It can only mean, they got their budgets and living expenses wrong and didn't allow for currency fluctuations and inflation.

Edited November 4, 2018 by Scouse123

[poanoi]

i think it was a good thing i partied to the fullest of my potential

while i still could physically and economically

[worgeordie]

The shit will hit the really hit the fan,if the Government decides

to uplift the requirements as regards having money in the bank,

to say 1 Million married,1.5 Retired (I have never understood how

if your married,wife to look after,maybe kids) its 400,00,but if

single and retired its 800,000 THB, more of that Thai logic.

getting back to when /if they lift the requirements,another 20 % ?

packing their bags,booking flights ?, leaving on a jet plane.

 

regards worgeordie

 

[thequietman]

I am really tired of people like you who profess that foreigners are a burden to Thailand.

Give me the list where foreigners are a burden please?

 

We take nothing and give everything. no matter how small. I pay my taxes ( more than a Thai citizen), I pay company taxes ( more than most Thai citizens), I pay road tax on my truck and bike for the use of the roads.

 

So, tell me what burden the foreigner is to the Thai's?

 

We can't own any land, we can't set up a company that is in competition to a Thai one because of the same statement over and over again since I came here, 'Thai's are not yet ready to compete." They weren't ready 14 years ago and are still not ready! Come on.

 

I have no issues coming up with the money needed to stay but I do have the other foreigners backs here who have family and kids. Maybe a bit of reciprocation by our own countries regarding Thailand's immigration policy are needed. 

 

Reporting every 90 days! Last time I seen that was in the second world war and we know how that went. Why is it that I need 400.000 baht a year to feed my family when a larger Thai family can survive on much, much less?

 

If as a Thai, you want to come to my country and be allowed to settle there, get residency when married, get health care once living there a period of time and get social security after a period if you come on hard times, then the least you can let me do, is to be able to stay with my family and get residence with relative ease as I am married to a Thai citizen.

 

If wife dies tomorrow, I need to leave. What the hell is going on there?

[Brunolem]

Don't you think it could be the other way round?

 

That the obstacles created by the embassies of some countries are not there to please the Thai authorities, but rather the authorities of said countries?

 

I don't know about the specific cases of the concerned countries, but there are quite a few governments who are not too happy seeing more and more of their citizens taking and spending their retirement pensions abroad.

 

The issue is likely to become even more sensitive with the massive financing problems faced by pension funds in the West, problems which are growing by the day.

 

Besides, the more the number of foreigners deciding to retire in Thailand increase, the more the retirees contribute to strengthen the baht thanks to their constant money transfers.

 

Edited November 4, 2018 by Brunolem

[Scouse123]

56 minutes ago, thequietman said:

I am really tired of people like you who profess that foreigners are a burden to Thailand.

Give me the list where foreigners are a burden please?

 

We take nothing and give everything. no matter how small. I pay my taxes ( more than a Thai citizen), I pay company taxes ( more than most Thai citizens), I pay road tax on my truck and bike for the use of the roads.

 

So, tell me what burden the foreigner is to the Thai's?

 

We can't own any land, we can't set up a company that is in competition to a Thai one because of the same statement over and over again since I came here, 'Thai's are not yet ready to compete." They weren't ready 14 years ago and are still not ready! Come on.

 

I have no issues coming up with the money needed to stay but I do have the other foreigners backs here who have family and kids. Maybe a bit of reciprocation by our own countries regarding Thailand's immigration policy are needed. 

 

Reporting every 90 days! Last time I seen that was in the second world war and we know how that went. Why is it that I need 400.000 baht a year to feed my family when a larger Thai family can survive on much, much less?

 

If as a Thai, you want to come to my country and be allowed to settle there, get residency when married, get health care once living there a period of time and get social security after a period if you come on hard times, then the least you can let me do, is to be able to stay with my family and get residence with relative ease as I am married to a Thai citizen.

 

If wife dies tomorrow, I need to leave. What the hell is going on there?

'

 

I really am confused by who the post is aimed at to start with.

 

However, if it's me, I never once said that foreigners are a burden. Not once. So where does that come from? I am certainly NOT attacking foreigners here. That's the first time I have ever been accused of something like that.

 

My main point was, are people, expecting too much from the system as it is? You cannot expect the GBP to stay at 70  baht or the USD at 45 baht. Currencies fluctuate. Prices in bars, shops, and supermarkets go up, just like they do in our home countries. That's inflation and is worldwide.

 

You are not the only guy that pays taxes, so do I. And in my time here have bought no less than seven brand new cars, built a number of houses for Thai families etc. and had businesses and companies, all above board tax paid and closed down properly, when no longer required.

 

You are totally wide of the mark here, and making an unjustified comment about something neither said nor implied.

 

The money in the bank syndrome, I agree, and even more so because I have a Thai partner for 20 plus years and we never married etc so I still need to show 800,000 baht. The land and houses are built and paid for, so no borrowings or mortgage, or even rent, It stands then, to reason, I can live on less than 65K a month comfortably, and I do!

 

The reason is I can live like this, I live in Isaarn, I don't smoke, I now drink very little, through choice and health, not budget restraints and I prefer Thai food in local restaurants or cooked at home to going out. My days of discos and gogo bars are over and I am still only 56, but like to keep reasonably fit and prefer simple pleasures,

 

My other point was about foreigners complaining about currency manipulations, harking back to the good old days when at one point the pound touched 90 baht,  and then every silly idea under the sun to save a baht or two, is to ask themselves, can they really afford now to stay in Thailand because these regulations are not going to change just because they get up petitions and complain here on Thai visa.

 

It will not change things. If they are single, maybe a different country. If married, maybe they should return home and get a job to get more funds. If they are retired or too old to work with not enough funds, maybe they underestimated their retirement budget.

[lanng khao]

The shit will hit the really hit the fan,if the Government decides
to uplift the requirements as regards having money in the bank,
to say 1 Million married,1.5 Retired (I have never understood how
if your married,wife to look after,maybe kids) its 400,00,but if
single and retired its 800,000 THB, more of that Thai logic.
getting back to when /if they lift the requirements,another 20 % ?
packing their bags,booking flights ?, leaving on a jet plane.
 
regards worgeordie
 

The shit will really hit the fan when part of the criteria for your extension of stay is to show adequate health insurance to cover your stay here..

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk

[zzaa09]

I envision a Thailand that will be ridden of 98% Farang. 

 

Paradise.

[thequietman]

25 minutes ago, zzaa09 said:

I envision a Thailand that will be ridden of 98% Farang. 

 

Paradise.

In my day to day life, foreigners do not affect me. Why is it that you despise them so much? Live and let live I say.

It is the Thai's and their insistence to live in the past and refusal to progress that irritates me. Their selfish ways and obsession with material things, their 'loss of face' drama and the mantra that Thailand is the be all and end all of everything. Apart from that, they are OK. ????

 

Great country ......... just needs a population transplant. ????

[1FinickyOne]

You complain about the laws changing and then state the truth that the law is the same, they are just asking for proof of compliance... it sure doesn't sound unreasonable to me or any reason to want to abandon the country - - unless you have been lying about complying... 

 

From what I have read, medical expenses eat up most elderly and they die with nothing in the bank in their home country... 

 

But it seems worldwide immigration is cracking down... 

 

[Lacessit]

2 hours ago, Brunolem said:

Don't you think it could be the other way round?

 

That the obstacles created by the embassies of some countries are not there to please the Thai authorities, but rather the authorities of said countries?

 

I don't know about the specific cases of the concerned countries, but there are quite a few governments who are not too happy seeing more and more of their citizens taking and spending their retirement pensions abroad.

 

The issue is likely to become even more sensitive with the massive financing problems faced by pension funds in the West, problems which are growing by the day.

 

Besides, the more the number of foreigners deciding to retire in Thailand increase, the more the retirees contribute to strengthen the baht thanks to their constant money transfers.

 

A valid point. Governments generally don't like their citizens escaping from their control. Of course, if said governments had not screwed up the retirements of their citizens by their inaction before, during and after the GFC, they would not be seeing many of their citizens fleeing to places like Thailand.

[Lacessit]

26 minutes ago, thequietman said:

In my day to day life, foreigners do not affect me. Why is it that you despise them so much? Live and let live I say.

It is the Thai's and their insistence to live in the past and refusal to progress that irritates me. Their selfish ways and obsession with material things, their 'loss of face' drama and the mantra that Thailand is the be all and end all of everything. Apart from that, they are OK. ????

 

Great country ......... just needs a population transplant. ????

The average Thai IQ is 80. Fairly low on the intelligence totem pole.

On the other hand, their social cohesion and family dedication is probably top of the tree.

It is what it is.

[sirineou]

1 hour ago, Scouse123 said:

'

 

I really am confused by who the post is aimed at to start with.

 

However, if it's me, I never once said that foreigners are a burden. Not once. So where does that come from? I am certainly NOT attacking foreigners here. That's the first time I have ever been accused of something like that.

 

My main point was, are people, expecting too much from the system as it is? You cannot expect the GBP to stay at 70  baht or the USD at 45 baht. Currencies fluctuate. Prices in bars, shops, and supermarkets go up, just like they do in our home countries. That's inflation and is worldwide.

 

You are not the only guy that pays taxes, so do I. And in my time here have bought no less than seven brand new cars, built a number of houses for Thai families etc. and had businesses and companies, all above board tax paid and closed down properly, when no longer required.

 

You are totally wide of the mark here, and making an unjustified comment about something neither said nor implied.

 

The money in the bank syndrome, I agree, and even more so because I have a Thai partner for 20 plus years and we never married etc so I still need to show 800,000 baht. The land and houses are built and paid for, so no borrowings or mortgage, or even rent, It stands then, to reason, I can live on less than 65K a month comfortably, and I do!

 

The reason is I can live like this, I live in Isaarn, I don't smoke, I now drink very little, through choice and health, not budget restraints and I prefer Thai food in local restaurants or cooked at home to going out. My days of discos and gogo bars are over and I am still only 56, but like to keep reasonably fit and prefer simple pleasures,

 

My other point was about foreigners complaining about currency manipulations, harking back to the good old days when at one point the pound touched 90 baht,  and then every silly idea under the sun to save a baht or two, is to ask themselves, can they really afford now to stay in Thailand because these regulations are not going to change just because they get up petitions and complain here on Thai visa.

 

It will not change things. If they are single, maybe a different country. If married, maybe they should return home and get a job to get more funds. If they are retired or too old to work with not enough funds, maybe they underestimated their retirement budget.

Though I agree with most you said,

Two points

One of clarification , USD not 45bht but sadly 32.8???? 

and that the income  requirement  are not progressive (though you did not say that they are) 

   if one had build a house paid for, it stand to reason that such person does not have a rent expense , obviously such person does not need the same amount to live in Thailand as a person who pays rent so why should they both be required the same amount? Not only is it unfair , it is punitive, and does not encourage investment in Thailand. 

If I had a borderline income knowing what I know now, I would certainly not build a house in Thailand and would instead keep the Three million bht in the bank , and if I already had a house build then perhaps I would sell it and then have more than sufficient funds to remain in Thailand.

Both neither fair or progressive policies. and certainly counterproductive. 

 

 

[observer90210]

Many interesting comments here.....one could resume it all to the saying on how to kill the golden goose ver. 4.0 !

[swissie]

4 hours ago, lanng khao said:

The shit will really hit the fan when part of the criteria for your extension of stay is to show adequate health insurance to cover your stay here..

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk
 

Yep! No matter how I slice it, at a certain age, Health Coverage can easily cost US$ 400 per month. Should this become mandatory in combination with stiffer requirements Immigration-wise, this could be the final financial nail in the coffin of half of all the Farangs living here.

- An astonishing number of Farangs must be living on a "budget" in Thailand. How else could it be, that recent Visa-Issues have produced THOUSANDS of posts, instead of just shrugging it off and park those 800'000 Bht in a Thai Bank and go on with their (Thai) lives?

Never in my living memory have there been so many uncertainities hanging over the heads of resident Farangs. To have a plan "B" is not only recommendable, it is a must.

By plan "B" I am not referring to the future use of "Visa-Agencies". If "Big Joke" goes after the Visa-Mills with the same vigor as he has displayed by going after Overstayers/Undesirables, the Visa-Agencies would not make for a good plan "B".
Cheers.

[swissie]

3 hours ago, sirineou said:

Though I agree with most you said,

Two points

One of clarification , USD not 45bht but sadly 32.8???? 

and that the income  requirement  are not progressive (though you did not say that they are) 

   if one had build a house paid for, it stand to reason that such person does not have a rent expense , obviously such person does not need the same amount to live in Thailand as a person who pays rent so why should they both be required the same amount? Not only is it unfair , it is punitive, and does not encourage investment in Thailand. 

If I had a borderline income knowing what I know now, I would certainly not build a house in Thailand and would instead keep the Three million bht in the bank , and if I already had a house build then perhaps I would sell it and then have more than sufficient funds to remain in Thailand.

Both neither fair or progressive policies. and certainly counterproductive. 

 

 

"If I had a borderline income knowing what I know now, I would certainly not build a house in Thailand and would instead keep the Three million bht in the bank , and if I already had a house build then perhaps I would sell it and then have more than sufficient funds to remain in Thailand."

 

Referring to above quote: Many Farangs have invested a good part of their assets in a nice House, car(s) etc, being convinced that their regular monthly pension income would be all they would ever need to spend their undisturbed "golden years" in Thailand. Nothing wrong with it in a stable environement (stable country).
As uncertainity increases, the idea of "liquidating" some "immovable-assets" may cross the minds of some Farangs these days. Easier said than done.

A mansion built in Nakhon Nowhere and a Condo in the "wrong" neighborhood can not be turned into cash overnight.
Very much opposite to rules and regulations affecting Farangs. Those can be changed overnight.
Cheers.

[sirineou]

29 minutes ago, swissie said:

"If I had a borderline income knowing what I know now, I would certainly not build a house in Thailand and would instead keep the Three million bht in the bank , and if I already had a house build then perhaps I would sell it and then have more than sufficient funds to remain in Thailand."

 

Referring to above quote: Many Farangs have invested a good part of their assets in a nice House, car(s) etc, being convinced that their regular monthly pension income would be all they would ever need to spend their undisturbed "golden years" in Thailand. Nothing wrong with it in a stable environement (stable country).
As uncertainity increases, the idea of "liquidating" some "immovable-assets" may cross the minds of some Farangs these days. Easier said than done.

A mansion built in Nakhon Nowhere and a Condo in the "wrong" neighborhood can not be turned into cash overnight.
Very much opposite to rules and regulations affecting Farangs. Those can be changed overnight.
Cheers.

Never said it will be easy or even possible liquidating assets simply an option to be tried, certainly better than abandonment.

At every opportunity concerning threads about moving to Thailand , cost of living. health insurance etc , I have always advocated, to the point of sounding like a broken record, against selling ones property in faragland , and burning bridges to finance one's escape to LOS.

  My wife would be happy to sell our remaining property in Florida, and if we did  we will come out with about a quarter of a million USD cash, but I would never do such a thing, I am well aware that Thailand will never be my country, It might tolerate me under specific provision such as the income requirement , but who knows what the future will bring. One thing I know for certain , and that is that if I am lucky enough to get very old , I will have old age associated health issues , as my father did and my mother did , and  my medical insurance and support system is back home, and regardless of Thailand's attitude towards me, I might have to repatriate.

   So the house in FL remains, when I am gone she can do whatever she wants to do with it. I have considered selling the FL house and investing the funds in a safe investment vehicle, letting the funds compound and when or if  I needed these funds use them to repatriate. An attractive option do to it's easy liquidity in the event of my demise. But I am afraid I might not be disciplined enough not to dip into it. 

Regardless of which way I finally settle in, a Plan B for repatriation is IMO advisable for the stated reasons expressed in your above reply.

Thailand is certainly not a stable environment as exemplified by recent events concerning  income verification. 

Edited November 4, 2018 by sirineou

[balo]

You can own a nice condo here you paid 4 million baht for , and still you are not able to transfer 800k into a Thai account. So many people end up thinking about selling property just to be able to stay here.   

 

They will be pissed for sure, and if they did not have a family here would leave the country asap. 

 

 

[Naam]

13 hours ago, Scouse123 said:

The only option I see is for people in this predicament is to move to a country where the visa restrictions and proof of income required are much easier than Thailand. Vietnam has just announced that they are opening up even domestic businesses to foreign ownership and takeovers. This certainly will appeal to many.

it will definitely not appeal to the "underfunded". 

[gmac]

I don't blame the Thais for any financial problems I blame the terrorists and the bankers.  I arrived to settle here in 2001 and immediately saw the income from my savings chopped from 12% to 1% with 9/11.  Recovered from that we then had the bankers financial meltdown 2008 or was it 2009 which effectively pegged rates at an all time low.  Now my best laid plans for life to the ripe old age of 90 will barely cover me to UK pension age!

 

It is not he fault of Thailand, they are fully entitled to change their requirements, it's up to us to manage our finances accordingly.    

[CharlieH]

Off topic posts removed.

[EVENKEEL]

For those with a house in Wife's name in Thailand, it would be interesting to know how many wives would actually sell the house to fund her underfunded husband being able to have 400K or 800K in case of a GF. If I were a betting man I'd say not many if at all.

[simoh1490]

5 minutes ago, EVENKEEL said:

For those with a house in Wife's name in Thailand, it would be interesting to know how many wives would actually sell the house to fund her underfunded husband being able to have 400K or 800K in case of a GF. If I were a betting man I'd say not many if at all.

If the farang husband has an usufruct in place there is little choice in the matter under law, the usufruct holder stipulates who lives in the house and who doesn't.....cue the Thai bashers who will now remind us that the wife's family would have the farang killed etc etc.......

[zzaa09]

56 minutes ago, simoh1490 said:

If the farang husband has an usufruct in place there is little choice in the matter under law, the usufruct holder stipulates who lives in the house and who doesn't.....cue the Thai bashers who will now remind us that the wife's family would have the farang killed etc etc.......

That works, as well.

Less Farang around can only be beneficial within the great schemes of things. 

[sirineou]

13 hours ago, EVENKEEL said:

For those with a house in Wife's name in Thailand, it would be interesting to know how many wives would actually sell the house to fund her underfunded husband being able to have 400K or 800K in case of a GF. If I were a betting man I'd say not many if at all.

No doubt in my mind that wife would support me in any way possible . as I would for her. But I would never come to that, that house is for her to have something after I am gone, If it came to that , it would be back home for as. We can always make pretty good money there. and when back in our feet come back to Thailand. 

 

 

[atyclb]

a thai female friend with a high level job for a japanese multinational company also feels things changing. she thinks the government is trying to clean up the country of illegals, and criminal types, but in the process many normal decent people are being hassled to no end.    

 

personally i think owning a condo (regardless of price or when purchased) is suffient reason to be granted a visa to be able to live in the condo you bought.