Denmark Embassy Has Stopped Doing Pension Letters

[Jingthing]

6 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

That is going to be a problem at some offices and even among some IOs in the same office. I shall be going in  several months early starting in the New year and ask specifically what will be accepted and not- write down their name and position and hope for the best. I will try and find the IO who actually signs the Passport .  

 

However,  I find it  quite hard to believe that the Us Embassy would misrepresent this situation to us.  They have explicitly told me these letters will be accepted for 6 months. Unfortunately,  if Thai Imm decides not to honor the letter I will have spent money on the letter, travel,  etc.  

 

 

 

If I were you I would strongly consider funding and seasoning a bank account, if you are able.

[cyberfarang]

1 minute ago, Jingthing said:

Depends on your definition of "plenty" but it is correct that there are  a number of nations that offer legal retirement status for much less money than Thailand requires. Spanish helps. 

Last year I visited Vietnam and Cambodia on a 3 week vacation. I got to speaking with expats in those countries and all told me that the immigration rules are tightening there as well.

 

Sorry, not deliberately trying to portray a pessimistic view on this, just pointing out that days of easy just walk in and out immigration procedures are almost over, mostly due to terrorism, the increase in human trafficking, criminal fugitives, criminal gangs trying to gain footholds abroad, money laundering and other types of criminal activities and also to too many now trying to buck the systems. A sad sign of the times.

[Thaidream]

5 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

I were you I would strongly consider funding and seasoning a bank account, if you are able.

Yes- good advice and just what I am planning to do. Luckily, I have some time to do that and the funds available.

However,  I will tell you this whole episode has left a very bad taste in my mouth..... I just hope one day the real truth comes out.

[DJ54]

Tried two of the links provided and unless I’m not reading it correctly not much that would help....

[soalbundy]

37 minutes ago, cyberfarang said:

I doubt there will be any new requirements.

 

Thai immigration`s policy is proof of source of monthly income in the prescribed amounts with a confirmation embassy letter or the money in a Thai bank account option. 

 

No letter, than it has to be the Thai money in a bank option. I am hearing reports from friends that those using the money in a bank option as retirees are being asked to bring bank books that show monies going in and out and source of the monies being paid in dating back, some say 3 months others have told me 6 months, including the 800000 baht. This means those using agencies and other means to borrow money as loans to obtain their visas are going to have problems.

 

It seems immigration really mean business now.

 

BTW; the immigration dept in question here is Chiang Mai. Some of my friends have told me they were not asked to show deposits and withdraws in their bank books and a few have told me they did. So it seems this is slowly being implemented now.

 

Be prepared to show immigration what they want to see and tell them what they want to hear.

I can't see that borrowing money from a Thai bank and paying it off with your foreign income would be a problem for IO. incidentally while at the IO this morning my missus got chatting to a Thai woman married to an old American, she mentioned that the IO (rank only of captain but seemed to be the office boss ) said that there would probably need to be arrangements made for older farangs who had been here for many years on the income method, glancing at her husband he said that some of them wouldn't be capable of flying back home ???? 

[elviajero]

6 hours ago, watcharacters said:

Simply put,  all embassies will stop issuing the income letters as time goes by because their use is no longer accepted by the Thai immigration department.

 

Changing times.

That is not what’s happened.

 

Immigration will still accept income letters, but some embassies have stopped issuing them because immigrantion want the embassies to provide letters confirming income, which the embassies aren’t prepared to do.

[ExpatOilWorker]

6 hours ago, Tanoshi said:

And the regulations don't state anything more than 40/65K per month.

It neither states by Embassy letter, foreign bank, Thai bank, or cash in hand.

 

A directive obviously stated the proof of income was in the form of a letter from your Embassy.

With the withdrawal of this service, or eventual refusal by Immigration, unless a new directive is issued as to an acceptable form of proof of income that can be verified by Immigration, which may or may not be forthcoming, then to rely on the assumption that Immigration will offer an alternative solution is playing a dangerous game of cat and mouse.

 

You should be planning on 400 or 800K in a Thai bank for the future.

How long have the lump-sum requirement been 400/800K?

It would be a double whammy if the requirement was adjusted a couple of years from now.

In the early 2000 immigration fees were substantially increased from around 500 baht to the current 1,900 baht and overstay fines increased from 200 to 500 baht overnight.

Could the same happen with the lump-sum requirement?

 

 

[cyberfarang]

3 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

I can't see that borrowing money from a Thai bank and paying it off with your foreign income would be a problem for IO. incidentally while at the IO this morning my missus got chatting to a Thai woman married to an old American, she mentioned that the IO (rank only of captain but seemed to be the office boss ) said that there would probably need to be arrangements made for older farangs who had been here for many years on the income method, glancing at her husband he said that some of them wouldn't be capable of flying back home ???? 

I`ll explain and then up to you whether you except the explanation or not.

 

Going back not so long ago it was dead easy for foreigners to open Thai bank accounts, mostly just on the show of a passport with virtually no questions asked. But over the years this easy system has been abused.

 

Now Immigration are concerned about foreigners using Thai banks for money laundering, illegal incomes and criminal activities, which has been happening. There are some Thai banks and some branches of Thai banks that are flatly refusing to let foreigners open accounts with them.

 

It has become common knowledge that a large minority of expats are using corrupt agency methods to pull strings to obtain their yearly extensions for a price. Some have openly boasted about doing this on these forums.

 

Borrowing money from a Thai bank and then paying back by whatever methods, means the person does not meet the requirements of having the prescribed amounts in a Thai bank under their own right, they are borrowing from Peter to pay back Paul. Also immigration, as I`ve said want to ensure that the money foreigners have in a bank here is their own and legal.

 

Simply put, Thai immigration no longer wants cheap charlies in Thailand that are unable to meet with immigration requirements expecting everything laid on for a decent lifestyle all for free and without giving anything back in return. Thailand does not owe foreigners a comfortable standard of living, there is no such thing as a free ride in this world.

[JackThompson]

2 hours ago, Lovethailandelite said:

You really need to take time out and clear your head of all the hatred and disdain you have of Immigration, visa agents, Thailand Elite, Thai airports and just anybody that chooses a way of securing there stay here outside of your remit. Only then would you understand the concept of 'Money in the bank'. Be that a lump sum (400/800k) or the regular minimum income. 40/65k.
I suggest you may want to apply that logic too regarding your current favourite 'Loop holes' Savannakhet and Hanoi.

One cannot "un-see" what they have experienced first-hand.  But for the sake of this question, let's pretend that everything that happens with immigration is done "above board," and everyone applies in-person for extensions of stay.

 

I am married to a Thai.  How to show my valid income now, without the embassy-letter?  Are your sources are telling you that if I have 40K Baht or more, deposited into my Thai bank account monthly from abroad, I can use proof of that from my Thai bank, alone, to show financials for an extension next year?

 

As to 1-Year Non-O ME Visas from Savannakhet, Hanoi, HCMC, and the other Thai consulates who offer them: I expect the rules will change, because I the same players will not be satisfied until all expats are either kicked-out or paying tribute. 

 

If your predicted system of "showing deposits into a Thai bank" does not materialize, hopefully we can obtain income letters from our embassies abroad, to provide to Thai consulates in the respective countries, when applying for these Visas. 

I would like to think that the MFA cares about the welfare of Thais married to foreigners, even if immigration doesn't - and perhaps that is why those visas are still offered now.  But I suppose it's just a question of how much money is thrown around to change that policy - and how much change will be bought.

[jimn]

I am surprised that its the Danes being the 4th country to announce that they are withdrawing the income letter service. I would have expected an embassy from one of the larger expat communities such as the Germans or French and not forgetting the Chinese and Japanese. I fully expect all embassies who issue the letters to now follow like lemmings before the year is out.

[jesimps]

21 hours ago, Carib said:

Is it correct to assume that the Danish embassy used the same way of checking/verifying like the brit and aussie and american embassy did?  Meaning there was no real check and verification, thus open to abuse?  Does anybody know? 

I'm a Brit and every year sent my P60 (earnings/tax) letter from my government service pension people and the letter stating my state pension (which never changes because my pension is frozen at the date I left UK for Thailand). They're official letters so I don't see the problem in the embassy verifying them. Yes I know letters can be forged, but so can any sort of documentation, passports, bank books, bank letters, currency etc etc. Where d'you draw the line for goodness sake? Seems to me that the only way you can truly verify a document is by the embassy contacting the issuer for verification. When I got my original visa, I bet the Thai Consulate didn't do this. If immigration allow us to use 65,000baht monthly into a bank here (more now because of the time involved), are they going to contact the bank to verify your bank book and the bank's letter? This is a right cluster.F,u,,k.

[JackThompson]

51 minutes ago, cyberfarang said:

I am hearing reports from friends that those using the money in a bank option as retirees are being asked to bring bank books that show monies going in and out and source of the monies being paid in dating back, some say 3 months others have told me 6 months, including the 800000 baht. This means those using agencies and other means to borrow money as loans to obtain their visas are going to have problems.

Agent-submitted applications undergo greatly reduced scrutiny.  Its people submitting the information honestly, in-person, who experience these reported problems at some offices.
 

53 minutes ago, cyberfarang said:

Be prepared to show immigration what they want to see and tell them what they want to hear.

It would be nice if we knew exactly what that was.  If "money going in and out" is needed in addition to the seasoned 800K in the bank, info like "how much," "how often," and "how long," are important details.

 

53 minutes ago, cyberfarang said:

It seems immigration really mean business now.

What you are describing is changing the rules arbitrarily, to drive away honest, in-person applicants - not strictly following the rules as written.  I and many others prefer clear and concise written rules, because we can know what to expect and plan accordingly.  It is the lack of clear rules, followed uniformly, which is the problem.

[cyberfarang]

6 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

One cannot "un-see" what they have experienced first-hand.  But for the sake of this question, let's pretend that everything that happens with immigration is done "above board," and everyone applies in-person for extensions of stay.

 

I am married to a Thai.  How to show my valid income now, without the embassy-letter?  Are your sources are telling you that if I have 40K Baht or more, deposited into my Thai bank account monthly from abroad, I can use proof of that from my Thai bank, alone, to show financials for an extension next year?

 

As to 1-Year Non-O ME Visas from Savannakhet, Hanoi, HCMC, and the other Thai consulates who offer them: I expect the rules will change, because I the same players will not be satisfied until all expats are either kicked-out or paying tribute. 

 

If your predicted system of "showing deposits into a Thai bank" does not materialize, hopefully we can obtain income letters from our embassies abroad, to provide to Thai consulates in the respective countries, when applying for these Visas. 

I would like to think that the MFA cares about the welfare of Thais married to foreigners, even if immigration doesn't - and perhaps that is why those visas are still offered now.  But I suppose it's just a question of how much money is thrown around to change that policy - and how much change will be bought.

No, immigration will not accept the monthly income method on just a bank letter alone, they still require proof of source of that income and an embassy confirmation letter unless somehow all that you bring over month by month totals to 400000 baht 2 months prior to your yearly application.

 

Immigration are also going to start questioning how those on yearly married to a Thai spouse extensions that are under retirement age obtain their incomes. So those working illegally or operating businesses in their Thai wives names are going to have problems.

 

This is what is starting to happen.

[Thaidream]

8 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

If your predicted system of "showing deposits into a Thai bank" does not materialize, hopefully we can obtain income letters from our embassies abroad, to provide to Thai consulates in the respective countries, when applying for these Visas. 

I would expect you can use a general affidavit as shown on the US  Embassy website- write in your income amounts and source and  sign under Oath and use this as proof of income from a Thai Consulate.  The Us Embassy is stopping the income affidavit but not the general affidavit. It wouldn't be accepted at Thai Imm but under MFA rules which control embassies I believe they may be accepted as proof of income or a copy of your  US bank statement. In fact, when I once obtained a Non O Multiple  Visa due to marriage from a Thai-  I have to prove I had $800 in the bank and simply provided a copy of my bank statement. 

 

 

[perconrad]

3 hours ago, Lovethailandelite said:

And in fairness, UK higher rate tax payers are stopped tax of 40% on UK derived income no matter where you happen to be living. We are not talking the likes of Bob Geldolf to be a 40% tax payer either. Just someone who earns a reasonable income. Of course, none of that matters other than a response to people assuming they are hard done by paying income tax of 37%.

But in Denmark 37 % is the tax for lower income, for over ca DKK 500,000 it is more than 52 %. Not all on here love Thailand elite or have the cash for it. 

[jesimps]

15 minutes ago, cyberfarang said:

I`ll explain and then up to you whether you except the explanation or not.

 

Going back not so long ago it was dead easy for foreigners to open Thai bank accounts, mostly just on the show of a passport with virtually no questions asked. But over the years this easy system has been abused.

 

Now Immigration are concerned about foreigners using Thai banks for money laundering, illegal incomes and criminal activities, which has been happening. There are some Thai banks and some branches of Thai banks that are flatly refusing to let foreigners open accounts with them.

 

It has become common knowledge that a large minority of expats are using corrupt agency methods to pull strings to obtain their yearly extensions for a price. Some have openly boasted about doing this on these forums.

 

Borrowing money from a Thai bank and then paying back by whatever methods, means the person does not meet the requirements of having the prescribed amounts in a Thai bank under their own right, they are borrowing from Peter to pay back Paul. Also immigration, as I`ve said want to ensure that the money foreigners have in a bank here is their own and legal.

 

Simply put, Thai immigration no longer wants cheap charlies in Thailand that are unable to meet with immigration requirements expecting everything laid on for a decent lifestyle all for free and without giving anything back in return. Thailand does not owe foreigners a comfortable standard of living, there is no such thing as a free ride in this world.

Absolute nonsense, I'm sure most elderly foreigners here on monthly income method are perfectly legal as per the Thai regulations. The ones going via the public visa offices I reckon are a very small minority, and even those, I'm sure, are bringing plenty of money into the country. The object of this thread is to point out that although most of us are here legally, we're now left hanging, not knowing whether to get together the 800,000 (400,000) to deposit in the bank or if there will be a new regulation stating the immigration requirements for a monthly income method. In my opinion, Thai immigration and the embassies are treating us abominally. It's people's lives we're talking about. As for your attitude, if BJ needs some quislings, he need only contact you and your mates on here.

[Thingamabob]

Just go the 800k route. Simple and quick.

[elviajero]

1 hour ago, Awk said:

Nonsense.  To check or verify a document does not mean they have to contact the original source of the document to verify it's authenticity.  Contacting the original source is merely one, more thorough, way of verifying the document.  Another way is, as they do for other similarly non-critical verification, verify that the documents looks genuine "enough", and that the applicant has signed them, including signing that the applicant is aware providing fraudulent documents is a punishable crime.

Utter nonsense. Every document is forgable and the ONLY way it can be verified is to contact the issuer!!

[totally thaied up]

13 minutes ago, jesimps said:

Thai immigration and the embassies are treating us abominally.

I have to agree with that. I mean, the Danish are now left up a creek without a paddle and I am trying to work this out if someone is now trying to call Immigration's bluff in getting some form of notice out there. 

 

28 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

Agent-submitted applications undergo greatly reduced scrutiny.  Its people submitting the information honestly, in-person, who experience these reported problems at some offices.

I spent seven years do visa runs and the such before I met my wife. I had hell in general during this time and then I started to use an Agent at year five and my problems went away. No, I did not pay anyone off, but the fact being I USED an agent to do all my paperwork and when I did get married and apply for my first extension, it went all so easy apart from the grilling I got on my home visit. I will continue to use an Agent though my wife could do it all just because I have seen what hassles can be made and for 3,000 baht a year, they just go away when I do my extension. 

 

26 minutes ago, cyberfarang said:

Immigration are also going to start questioning how those on yearly married to a Thai spouse extensions that are under retirement age obtain their incomes. So those working illegally or operating businesses in their Thai wives names are going to have problems.

So, I am on a Disability pension married to a Thai and only 49. My wife works two jobs so we can both live a good life. She is an Accountant and with money, I gave her, she seeded her second business that makes her money and that she pays tax on. I don't operate any businesses here and I know a lot of my friends in the same boat as me (wife running a business from seeded money but the husband does not work the business at all). Some farangs may be doing this as in running a business under the wives name but really, it is getting very few and far between. I have been married three years now and I have had a local village policeman come yearly just after my marriage extension to our home and take a photo of me and my wife together after they have had a look around our house to see if I was working. 

Edited November 15, 2018 by totally thaied up

[rott]

35 minutes ago, cyberfarang said:

I`ll explain and then up to you whether you except the explanation or not.

 

Going back not so long ago it was dead easy for foreigners to open Thai bank accounts, mostly just on the show of a passport with virtually no questions asked. But over the years this easy system has been abused.

 

Now Immigration are concerned about foreigners using Thai banks for money laundering, illegal incomes and criminal activities, which has been happening. There are some Thai banks and some branches of Thai banks that are flatly refusing to let foreigners open accounts with them.

 

It has become common knowledge that a large minority of expats are using corrupt agency methods to pull strings to obtain their yearly extensions for a price. Some have openly boasted about doing this on these forums.

 

Borrowing money from a Thai bank and then paying back by whatever methods, means the person does not meet the requirements of having the prescribed amounts in a Thai bank under their own right, they are borrowing from Peter to pay back Paul. Also immigration, as I`ve said want to ensure that the money foreigners have in a bank here is their own and legal.

 

Simply put, Thai immigration no longer wants cheap charlies in Thailand that are unable to meet with immigration requirements expecting everything laid on for a decent lifestyle all for free and without giving anything back in return. Thailand does not owe foreigners a comfortable standard of living, there is no such thing as a free ride in this world.

What are you on about cyber farang? "Expecting a decent lifestyle for free without giving anything back in return" "Thailand does not owe foreigners a comfortable standard of living, there is no such thing as a free ride in this world".

What breathtaking, arrogant garbage. Show me what anyone has had for free. Giving nothing back? How much does the average long stay farang put into the economy? More than plenty.

 

And are you authorised to speak on behalf of Thai Immigration? Your tone indicates that is what you are doing.

[jesimps]

1 hour ago, cyberfarang said:

Last year I visited Vietnam and Cambodia on a 3 week vacation. I got to speaking with expats in those countries and all told me that the immigration rules are tightening there as well.

 

Sorry, not deliberately trying to portray a pessimistic view on this, just pointing out that days of easy just walk in and out immigration procedures are almost over, mostly due to terrorism, the increase in human trafficking, criminal fugitives, criminal gangs trying to gain footholds abroad, money laundering and other types of criminal activities and also to too many now trying to buck the systems. A sad sign of the times.

Yes, that's fine, can understand that, but as things stand the Thais require an embassy letter for us to use the income method, but the embassies won't issue them. Therefore, we have a catch-22 situation. I personally, and I'm sure many others, are only too willing to deposit 800,000 to a local bank if it means we can stay here with our families; even though we'd prefer to use the income method. It'd be nice if immigration would break the habit of a lifetime and put us fully in the picture.

[elviajero]

10 hours ago, jackdd said:

But what you say is just wrong.

There are many statistics about this, just google something like "median net worth retirement" then you will see that the median for retirees in western countries is somewhere in the millions of THB, so most of the retirees can afford 800k on a Thai bank ????

 

You’re right that most actual retirees should have no problem affording 800K, but many people on retirement extensions are not retired or receiving old age pensions, and rely on the income method to ‘prove’ their real, exaggerated or fictitious income.

[cyberfarang]

11 minutes ago, totally thaied up said:

I have to agree with that. I mean, the Danish are now left up a creek without a paddle and I am trying to work this out if someone is now trying to call Immigration's bluff in getting some form of notice out there. 

 

I spent seven years do visa runs and the such before I met my wife. I had hell in general during this time and then I started to use an Agent at year five and my problems went away. No, I did not pay anyone off, but the fact being I USED an agent to do all my paperwork and when I did get married and apply for my first extension, it went all so easy apart from the grilling I got on my home visit. I will continue to use an Agent though my wife could do it all just because I have seen what hassles can be made and for 3,000 baht a year, they just go away when I do my extension. 

 

So, I am on a Disability pension married to a Thai and only 49. My wife works two jobs so we can both live a good life. She is an Accountant and with money, I gave her, she seeded her second business that makes her money and that she pays tax on. I don't operate any businesses here and I know a lot of my friends in the same boat as me (wife running a business from seeded money but the husband does not work the business at all). Some farangs may be doing this as in running a business under the wives name but really, it is getting very few and far between. I have been married three years now and I have had a local village policeman come yearly just after my marriage extension to our home and take a photo of me and my wife together after they have had a look around our house to see if I was working. 

But in future you are not going to be able to use your wife`s income for immigration purposes for reasons I have explained.

 

400000 baht is only USD12000 (£9500) at today`s rates. Sorry but I don`t make the rules here.

[GeorgeCross]

43 minutes ago, cyberfarang said:

Immigration are also going to start questioning how those on yearly married to a Thai spouse extensions that are under retirement age obtain their incomes.

 

i've been asked this every year for the last 5 years - (non-o marriage, 400K in bank, hua hin office)

i think it's a standard question on the IO interview already

 

 

[elviajero]

11 hours ago, soalbundy said:

If they won't accept letters then they will stipulate what they will accept as proof of income. Their own regulations state proof of income of 40/65k per month is required for a visa extension, there is no mention of an embassy letter (in the regulations) so there would only be the need for all IO's to drop the demand for an embassy letter.

The published police orders are not the only orders immigration work to. At some point they have been ordered to only accept embassy letters as the proof required to meet the 40/65K.

 

Until offices are directed otherwise by the TIB embassy letters are all they will accept.

Edited November 15, 2018 by elviajero

[Nowisee]

When I applied for the original visa the rules were just show an income over 65k, not required to be coming into the country.

I will not let Thai Immigration dictate how I handle my pension.  No way.  I'm happy to show various proofs of my income and happy to spend a lot of money in this country.
I am also quite happy to pack up and split.  

Change is good.

 

[Awk]

3 minutes ago, elviajero said:

Utter nonsense. Every document is forgable and the ONLY way it can be verified is to contact the issuer!!

 

So what?  

Already the embassy is doing the verification every time a Danish citizen provides a financial guarantee for a Thai citizen that wants to visit Denmark.  This verification is as said based on the same papers as those previously provided for the income verification letter. 

 

It is your statement that the embassy cannot verify these papers that is nonsense I'm sorry to say, as the embassy already has whatever means it deems necessary in order to do the verification, and will undoubtedly continue having to perform this verification for other purposes anyway (e.g., processing visa applications for Thai citizens sponsored by Danish citizens).

 

[elviajero]

4 hours ago, Thaidream said:

The notice from the US Embassy indicates that the letters will be issued until 31 December 2018 and they will be good for 6 months and that Thai Imm has verified that   applicants can apply early.  As part of their information- they indicated that  a negotiation and meeting took place between they and Thai Imm.

 

If this is not honored by Thai Imm that means that there is an issue to be discussed between the Embassy and Thai Imm on behalf of their citizens.  I would assume a diplomatic mission would go to the Head of Thai Imm and say we had an agreement and it needs to be honored.  This is not about complaining, it is about not misleading people or lying in the face of people.

 

I have to also believe that when a diplomatic mission meets with a foreign entity like Thai Imm- there is a written record and in that written record there is certainly who said what to whom and what was agreed,

I don’t beleive the US embassy has had anything verified by immigration. They are simply quoting immigrations existing policy and assuming old style letters will be accepted for 6 months.

[jesimps]

59 minutes ago, cyberfarang said:

No, immigration will not accept the monthly income method on just a bank letter alone, they still require proof of source of that income and an embassy confirmation letter unless somehow all that you bring over month by month totals to 400000 baht 2 months prior to your yearly application.

 

Immigration are also going to start questioning how those on yearly married to a Thai spouse extensions that are under retirement age obtain their incomes. So those working illegally or operating businesses in their Thai wives names are going to have problems.

 

This is what is starting to happen.

For goodness sake man, don't give them ideas. From the tone of some of your others posts, I suspect that this is wishful thinking on your part. Maybe this recent blx hits your G-spot.

[totally thaied up]

11 minutes ago, GeorgeCross said:

i've been asked this every year for the last 5 years - (non-o marriage, 400K in bank, hua hin office)

i think it's a standard question on the IO interview already

 

I am asked as well. We have a letter pinned to the back of my bank statement that is printed off showing I am on a Pension with original copies obtained via Post. I always get asked what I did prior in Australia and I tell them about my previous occupation. They also ask my wife in Thai what I did before as a job and she also explains I am on a Pension. They always seem to read the bank statement letter, look at my letter and that is the end of questioning.