Israel, Germany upset by BNK48 singer’s swastika shirt

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

1 hour ago, sungod said:

How many kids in Europe are aware of the genocide 40 years ago in Cambodia on the other side of the world from them?

I read / watched documentaries about it when I was a student at c.17 years old. The education system in the UK (the comprehensive school I attended, at least) devoted perhaps a class or 2, at most, to the exploration of that particular genocide, but it WAS included - that was around 15 years ago now. The big difference between the two is that WWII affected peoples ALL across the globe, it was a truly 'world war' that affected Europeans, Americans and Asians, in equal measure some might argue. So the comparison is flawed in my opinion. The two are not comparable in terms of their effect on civilisation and the magnitude of their scale or repercussions for BOTH Thais and Westerners. This is the big difference. Thais, like the rest of us, should be just as well versed in this particular era of modern history, as it affected so much of what we ALL take for granted in today's world and the after-effects of which can still be felt and measured today, as this whole article proves rather succinctly. Those who are curious, outward looking and interested in the world and in learning, will invariably teach themselves, that being said, an environment that supports and reinforces the quest for knowledge, learning, truth and understanding will always increase the amount of people who will become conversant in such things. The biggest issue in Thailand, to my mind, is that this environment is not fostered by the majority and that the education system (who's job it is to do so) fails so woefully at it - this is all by design of course, but that doesn't make it any better or more acceptable.

Edited January 28, 2019 by CanterbrigianBangkoker

[farcanell]

59 minutes ago, HalfLight said:

I disagree with your comment ref the Yin-Yang (I'm sure there's a name for it but I don't know what it is, I'm not a student of Eastern Religious thought), and I disagree with the wikipedia fragment. They're both wrong

Why? On either / or points.

https://www.keen.com/articles/love/yin-meets-yang

[The Old Bull]

The swastika is an ancient Asian symbol ,where do you think Hitler got it from? You can see it throughout India and Indonesia.

[PaceArrow]

I echo the same comments as ColinNeil, as a former Eng 2nd Language teacher (9 yrs ago), I saw kids then, and still today, and other young adults, running around with the Nazi T-Shirt designs because they think it's a cool design.  They do not understand the negative history behind it, as it is not taught, talked about, and explained by anyone but a few foreigners that know the significance behind it. No world history, geography, past or current events outside the country are part of the Thai education system as Thai students and most Thai teachers live in a bubble! Perhaps this incident will spark someone in the Thai Gov't or Education system to share what happened and post information when traveling to countries like Israel and Germany that it is not a good idea to be wearing that type of design. 

[Psimbo]

7 hours ago, wellred said:

I wonder why WW2 is not taught in Thai schools. Did they not get invaded by Japan in 1941 and later form alliance with them? Or is it more a case
of 'yeah that bit didn't look too well on us I.e loss of face, so we'll just not mention anything about it.

I didn't get taught that much about the second World War when I was in school its a 6 year period in the earlier part of last century (I went to school in the mid to latter part of the last Century)- why should the Holocaust be taught to Asian children- surely things like the Rape of Nanking and the American firebomb raids on Japan would be more relevant to them.

 

I notice the Israeli Envoy has made it all about the Jews- i seem to recall the disabled, political prisoners, Slavs, members of the SOE, homosexuals and others were involved as well.

 

As a later student of history and with an avid interest in it I have studied the 2nd world war at length as I personally find it a fascinating time historically- others are more indifferent to it so why should Thais be any different?

 

I'm not apologizing for what this girl did- it was in bad taste and the timing could not have got worse but the Israelis need to stop hijacking the Holocaust for their own agenda- its wearing a bit thin now.

 

Some people will roll in and slate me for the above comments but these events (the shirts, not the Holocaust) need keeping in context- there really isn't a need for 13 pages of wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Edited January 28, 2019 by Psimbo

[chubby]

sid vicious used to wear one too,    maybe they should include  palestine in their history lesson as well

Edited January 28, 2019 by chubby
f

[Jingthing]

9 minutes ago, Psimbo said:

I didn't get taught that much about the second World War when I was in school its a 6 year period in the earlier part of last century (I went to school in the mid to latter part of the last Century)- why should the Holocaust be taught to Asian children- surely things like the Rape of Nanking and the American firebomb raids on Japan would be more relevant to them.

 

I notice the Israeli Envoy has made it all about the Jews- i seem to recall the disabled, political prisoners, Slavs, members of the SOE, homosexuals and others were involved as well.

 

I'm not apologizing for what this girl did- it was in bad taste and the timing could not have got worse but the Israelis need to stop hijacking the Holocaust for their own agenda- its wearing a bit thin now.

 

Some people will roll in and slate me for the above comments but thes events ned keeping in context

Yeah, you're right.

You were very poorly educated about WW2 and the holocaust.

It's like you don't even know or are in toxic denial about the special obsession of Hitler and the Nazis to completely exterminate the Jewish people (as if they are cockroaches as they were sometimes pictured in Nazi propaganda) not only in Germany, not only in Europe, not only in the Middle East, but in the entire planet. The final solution they called it. A "Jew free" world.

They had no comparable obsession towards any other group. Not even close. Nobody is denying the other groups they targeted and murdered, so don't even bother saying that.

Just recently a document was uncovered detailing the population centers of Jews in the USA intended to be used by the Nazis when they thought they would defeat and occupy the USA. 

I found your post and some similar here of the same ignorant tone or worse nauseating and disgusting.

Thai pop stars aren't the only ones that could benefit from going back to school. 

Edited January 28, 2019 by Jingthing

[bananafish]

Am I the only one who finds it a little bit funny? 

[Disaantri]

[Jingthing]

7 minutes ago, bananafish said:

Am I the only one who finds it a little bit funny? 

There is some humor in it. Obviously the pop star is not a literal Nazi or Jew hater. That's more than I can say for some of the posters here. Personally, I think any efforts to crush Nazi and Hitler images to be seen as cool and high fashion particularly in Asia are inevitably futile. I question the wisdom of making a thing about every incident. ON the big incidents like the infamous Nazi school parade in Chiang Mai, sure, but I don't think an occasional t-shirt here or there or anywhere really rises to a high priority for any embassy in Thailand, including Germany and Israel. It's almost like giving attention to these ignorant fashionistas feeds the trend. 

Edited January 28, 2019 by Jingthing

[sawadee1947]

9 hours ago, webfact said:

lack of knowledge

This is a synonym Of Thailand 

[billmichael]

The problem with some people, especially religious people, is they often think they are the only ones here.  The swastika (as a character 卐 or 卍) is a geometrical figure and an ancient religious icon in the cultures of Eurasia, used as a symbol of divinity and spirituality in Indian religions.  When the NAZI's were looking for something to distinguish themselves they STOLE it from the people who had already had it for long before them.  I swear, you cannot make this kind of stupidity up.

[Baerboxer]

15 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Yeah, you're right.

You were very poorly educated about WW2 and the holocaust.

It's like you don't even know or are in toxic denial about the special obsession of Hitler and the Nazis to completely exterminate the Jewish people (as if they are cockroaches as they were sometimes pictured in Nazi propaganda) not only in Germany, not only in Europe, not only in the Middle East, but in the entire planet. The final solution they called it. A "Jew free" world.

They had no comparable obsession towards any other group. Not even close. Nobody is denying the other groups they targeted and murdered, so don't even bother saying that.

Just recently a document was uncovered detailing the population centers of Jews in the USA intended to be used by the Nazis when they thought they would defeat and occupy the USA. 

I found your post and some similar here of the same ignorant tone or worse nauseating and disgusting.

Thai pop stars aren't the only ones that could benefit from going back to school. 

 

Couldn't agree more with you. There is a danger as time goes on and more history created that things get less exposure in the education syllabus. WW1 and it's horrors have been getting some good exposure due to the 1914-1918:2014-2018 centenary. Easy to see how much hadn't been taught about the massacres and genocide in this war. WW11 being more recent, and getting more Hollywood treatment (which often distorts History), was perhaps therefore better known. But it wasn't until Schindler's List that perhaps many realized just how massive the horrors were and how devastating. Certainly, although WW11 was covered in my school history, the holocaust wasn't included to the degree it ought to have been. A close family friend was involved in the liberation of Belsen. He only talked about it near the end of his live when he was nearly 90. But what he saw never left him.

 

As a contrast, how many Western countries include the Rape of Nanking and all the other Japanese atrocities in their history education? And that unlike Germany, Japan has never really recognized it's inhuman behavior, apologized or sought repentance. 

 

WW1 anf WW2 contained significant learning about many many things at a time the World was going through tremendous social, economic, political and technological changes. Attempts at racial extermination and how the masses can be manipulated and exploited to carry this out or turn a blind eye are an important lesson. Today we still have people being murdered because of ethnicity, religious or political beliefs. Suggests mankind hasn't learnt the lesson yet and that the dangers of totalitarian dictatorships are still unheeded.

 

 

 

 

[Deli]

No other problems to solve in these 2 countries ?

 

[Jingthing]

1 minute ago, Deli said:

No other problems to solve in these 2 countries ?

 

Yeah they're working together on an algorithm that allows people to walk and chew gum at the same time. 

[polkop11]

Thai may not know much about the Holocaust. Not more than Europeans do about 20 million Russian dead in WW2, or about 6 million dead in central African wars, or about the Armenian genocide or about the victims of the Mao reign....

[Baerboxer]

6 minutes ago, billmichael said:

The problem with some people, especially religious people, is they often think they are the only ones here.  The swastika (as a character 卐 or 卍) is a geometrical figure and an ancient religious icon in the cultures of Eurasia, used as a symbol of divinity and spirituality in Indian religions.  When the NAZI's were looking for something to distinguish themselves they STOLE it from the people who had already had it for long before them.  I swear, you cannot make this kind of stupidity up.

 

It's normal forum requirement to mention the source when you copy and paste, such as Wiki perhaps!

 

You should have read more of the article about the uses of the zwastika in Europe before WW11. Perhaps the Nazis stole it from Carlsberg Brewery, the Dublin laundry, the Latvian airforce or Finnish military and others who were using it? 

Or perhaps as you suggest, they studied Asian religions and stole it from there ????

[meshborg]

Can you imagine the Sex Pistols saying sorry for wearing Swastikas.

[CanterbrigianBangkoker]

1 hour ago, The Old Bull said:

The swastika is an ancient Asian symbol ,where do you think Hitler got it from? You can see it throughout India and Indonesia.

Below are 3 of the more famous religious (Hindu / Buddhist and Shamanistic) 'swastika' symbols from the ancient world. 

 

The Nazi 'Hakenkreuz' though a Nazi appropriation of an ancient symbol, is distinguishable for both it's obvious notoriety in the Western world in recent times, in particular, but also because it is rotated unlike the majority of other ancient versions, which of course have a very different meaning.

 

If the BNK48 singer was wearing clothing featuring one of these other symbols then she would not have got into any trouble or indeed have made a faux pas of any kind. The fact that she either didn't know the connotations of the Hakenkreuz - or - did know but didn't care, is a testament to her ignorance or insensitivity or perhaps both. She is not alone here, and Thais are not alone in their ignorance either. The bigger issue, perhaps, is that she is a person of influence in Thailand, especially on the younger generation. I mean, think of it this way, if Katy Perry or One Direction wore clothing emblazoned with the Nazi logo, what would happen to them and their careers? and would it be just?

 

Edited January 28, 2019 by CanterbrigianBangkoker

[sanemax]

1 hour ago, The Old Bull said:

The swastika is an ancient Asian symbol ,where do you think Hitler got it from? You can see it throughout India and Indonesia.

What a revelation .

How did you know that ?

Thats an important addition to this topic , which people need to know about

[Jingthing]

10 minutes ago, meshborg said:

Can you imagine the Sex Pistols saying sorry for wearing Swastikas.

No. 

[Sydebolle]

2 hours ago, Jingthing said:

Why do you assume he's an observant Jew just because he's an Israeli?
Israel is not a theocracy and without secular Jews Israel wouldn't have ever existed.

Sent from my Lenovo A7020a48 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

Well, the "he" is actually a "she" (had to look it up too) and as a diplomat you represent your country and your country's religion - which in this particular case is not Islam.

What she is doing in the privacy of her own four walls on Sabbath remains her private affairs, but if she twitters around on Sabbath as deputy head of mission ....

I - for one - don't care as all those religions are an endless discussion over the fact, who has the bigger imaginary friend ???? 

 

[DrTuner]

Not really surprising, juntas since the thirties have always likes all sorts of autocratic regalia. Only natural their version of North Korea's girlie bands would wear a swastika.

[orchidfan]

I seem to recall seeing the "swastika" symbol in many temples and religious sites around Asia. ..particularly Indonesia (?) Dating back hundreds or thousands of years. Long before the Nazis adopted it.

But poor timing on the part of this pop group.

[Jingthing]

11 minutes ago, Sydebolle said:

Well, the "he" is actually a "she" (had to look it up too) and as a diplomat you represent your country and your country's religion - which in this particular case is not Islam.

What she is doing in the privacy of her own four walls on Sabbath remains her private affairs, but if she twitters around on Sabbath as deputy head of mission ....

I - for one - don't care as all those religions are an endless discussion over the fact, who has the bigger imaginary friend ???? 

 

No. You are wrong. Israel is not a theocracy. Israeli diplomats are not required to be observant Jews. Learn that and accept that because that is the truth. Israel is the nation state home of the Jewish people, religious/secular/atheist, whatever that of course also includes minorities such as Arab Christians and Muslims. Many ignorant people don't understand that Jewish is not only a religion. It is also a people. One doesn't need to be religiously observant to be a Jew or an Israeli Jew or an Israeli diplomat. Israeli diplomats don't represent the Jewish religion -- they represent the STATE OF ISRAEL.  You just need to have had a Jewish mother to be a Jew. That's an ethnic matrilineal thing (see anthropology). A small percentage convert to Judaism although Jews do not proselytize, often because of marriage, and converts would tend to be at least somewhat observant as they need to put in a lot of study with a Rabbi to accomplish the conversion. 

 

To add, do you think the Nazis let pork eating Jews live?

Edited January 28, 2019 by Jingthing

[orchidfan]

2 minutes ago, orchidfan said:

I seem to recall seeing the "swastika" symbol in many temples and religious sites around Asia. ..particularly Indonesia (?) Dating back hundreds or thousands of years. Long before the Nazis adopted it.

But poor timing on the part of this pop group.

Check "Swastika" - Wikipedia.

"Used mostly due to the Buddhist influence...." ( paraphrase of quotation)

 

[sanemax]

20 minutes ago, meshborg said:

Can you imagine the Sex Pistols saying sorry for wearing Swastikas.

They wore it for the shock value , rather than for  political causes 

[abrahamzvi]

3 hours ago, Chippy151 said:

Your daughter's friend should have said she disagreed with Israel's treatment of the Palestinians. That's not anti semitic as I'm sure you already know.

2 different things.

I entirely agree with you. Being anti Israeli policy, against the cruel and inhuman treatment of Palestinians is absolutely awful and should be harshly criticized. However, one should not identify such policies with Jews worldwide, or even not with all the Israelis. Unfortunately some Israelis, in particular the right wing ones and the government, as well as some Jewish organizations worldwide, term criticism of Israel, as antisemitism, which is, of course, false and misleading.

[abrahamzvi]

3 hours ago, HalfLight said:

Although there are efforts currently to change the definition of ant-semitism to include criticism of the Israeli government, which at present it does not. Please God the efforts fail because it would only enhance the ability of Israel to mug other populations.

Well said!

[Khun Paul]

The logical answer would be to ensure recent history of the world ( the last 100 odd years ) is taught correctly. How many Thais for instance understand that Siam / Thailand declared war on the UK and its allies in 1941 . Allowed the Japanese to walk through Thailand to save themselves, thereby causing thousands to be killed elsewhere, Suffered enormous indignities and loss of life assisting to construct the Burma railway. 

 

Thais kids I have taught are unaware in the main of this. That is the fault of the THAI Government 100% , ignorance not an issue, lack of education is !