Marriage/Retirement - Interpretations explained.

[rott]

18 minutes ago, overherebc said:

I like to live my life with a sense of humour to the fore in all things but recently I'm finding it more difficult to do. 

For a long time I did in the past have short periods where living here got to me, usually a month or so then I'd snap out of it and go with the flow.

I'm starting to feel those periods of 'annoyance' are becoming more frequent.

Change the vest more often and wash the commode out daily. Dashed good for morale.

[UKresonant]

4 hours ago, elviajero said:

Because the applicant is a foreigner wanting to live (not work) in Thailand, and is expected to have an income or cash from there home country as any typical retiree would.

I think it's getting more than "typical" Average UK pension (total) income is Approx £20400 / 816000THB gross @40/£, assuming you have the personal tax allowance that leaves about 751000THB p.a. after tax. (unless your from the City of London or somewhere close) then you may still have some residual commitments in UK

So probably 700kTHB to send to Thailand, would be average...

[overherebc]

9 hours ago, rott said:

Change the vest more often and wash the commode out daily. Dashed good for morale.

It's too hot for a vest. ????

[billsmart]

I assume in each Income Method there should be an ", or;" and not an ", and;" between items 1 and 2.

Edited February 14, 2019 by billsmart
Grammar

[oobar]

On 2/11/2019 at 7:52 PM, Tanoshi said:

If you had 300K deposited in a Thai bank, then you'd need to prove a minimum income of 42k per month throughout the year.

You couldn't withdraw any of the 300K.

But he could spend the 42k monthly, correct?

[billsmart]

Also, and at the risk of "throwing a wet blanket" over all this, I don't think we're anywhere close to seeing the end to all this. If you look at it from the Thai's POV, what they understandably want is some assurance that Type O and Type O-A visa holders who are living in Thailand longer term are able to financially care for themselves and will not become a burden on the state.

 

The changes to the Funds in the Bank will better do that for them.

 

The changes to the Income Method, as stated above, will not.

 

The only income that can be counted upon to be secure and consistent is a pension issued by a government agency. I'm sure the Thais know that, and the source of the "income" in the Income Method will soon be restricted to only pension, even for 30-year-old, unretired, ex-pats living here on and applying for extensions using Marriage qualifications.

 

And, I don't think the Thais will want to wade through and verify all the various documents that an ex-pat could produce to "prove" the deposits were from a government pension.

 

Also, there are many ways to show monthly, international deposits that only appear to guarantee income. You could, for example, transfer THB70K on the 1st of the month, send it back to your home country's account on the 15th, and then resend it back on the 1st of the next month. That would only cost you THB 3K or 4K at the most. I'm sure there are many other, less-obvious schemes to simulate what the Thais are looking for - proof of a secure, consistent, monthly income.

I think when all the dust settles, the only two options available will be Funds in the Bank, or the Letter from your Embassy verifying the monthly, pension income amount.

 

So, I'd advise all of you who, like me, a US citizen, whose embassy will no longer issue the affidavit verifying the source and the amount of Monthly Income, had better get ready to have the Funds in the Bank, perhaps starting in 2020.

 

That's what I am doing.

Edited February 14, 2019 by billsmart

[PAWNEESE]

On 2/11/2019 at 10:30 PM, skatewash said:

Combo Method Worksheet:

If you know how much you'd like to transfer into your Thai bank account per month

Go To Line 1.

 

If you know how much you'd like to keep in a Thai bank account year-round

Go To Line 4.

 

1.  Minumum Monthly Transfer:                                 _______

2.  Multiply Line 1 amount by 12 = Annual Income:      _______

3.  800,000 minus Line 2 = Minimum Bank Balance:    _______

 

4.  Minimum Bank Balance:                                       _______

5.  800,000 minus Line 4 = Annual Income:                _______

6.  Line 5 divided by 12 = Minimum Monthly Transfer: _______

 

Minimum Monthly Transfer is the amount you have to transfer into your Thai bank account each month.

 

Minimum Bank Balance is the amount you have to maintain in your Thai bank account

for the whole year.

The clearest, most concise and most useful post ever. ???? The penny has finally dropped re combo method with me. Many Thanks.

 

 

[DepDavid]

Funds deposited of 600K + income of 60K per month.

Funds and income total 1,320K per annum.

After the seasoning period you canwithdraw 520K.

Income of 60K x 12 = 720K + 80K <deleted>nds = 800K.

 

Not sure I understand why if you have 600k deposited in bank you need higher monthly income than if you have 500k in bank and why you cans withdraw excess of 800k at any time. 

 

Or.... are the above scenarios of what some people may have now?  Even so why does excess of 800k need to be seasoned?

 

i could just be missing the obvious. 

[spider1197]

Getting more and more confusing.  What will be needed after your extension and three months as proof that you still have 800,000 in bank?  Will we have to go to the bank every 3 months to get a letter to confirm deposit?

[Tanoshi]

1 hour ago, oobar said:

But he could spend the 42k monthly, correct?

Yes.

[rott]

12 hours ago, overherebc said:

I like to live my life with a sense of humour to the fore in all things but recently I'm finding it more difficult to do. 

For a long time I did in the past have short periods where living here got to me, usually a month or so then I'd snap out of it and go with the flow.

I'm starting to feel those periods of 'annoyance' are becoming more frequent.

 

[ArickChaiyaphum]

Since when does money for income on these visas have to be from abroad??

[AlfonsV]

As far as I understand I will not be allowed anymore to bring cash from my homecountry, convert it at a local money changer and deposit it on my thai bank account. Right?

[wobalt]

Also, and at the risk of "throwing a wet blanket" over all this, I don't think we're anywhere close to seeing the end to all this. If you look at it from the Thai's POV, what they understandably want is some assurance that Type O and Type O-A visa holders who are living in Thailand longer term are able to financially care for themselves and will not become a burden on the state.
 
The changes to the Funds in the Bank will better do that for them.
 
The changes to the Income Method, as stated above, will not.
 
The only income that can be counted upon to be secure and consistent is a pension issued by a government agency. I'm sure the Thais know that, and the source of the "income" in the Income Method will soon be restricted to only pension, even for 30-year-old, unretired, ex-pats living here on and applying for extensions using Marriage qualifications.
 
And, I don't think the Thais will want to wade through and verify all the various documents that an ex-pat could produce to "prove" the deposits were from a government pension.
 
Also, there are many ways to show monthly, international deposits that only appear to guarantee income. You could, for example, transfer THB70K on the 1st of the month, send it back to your home country's account on the 15th, and then resend it back on the 1st of the next month. That would only cost you THB 3K or 4K at the most. I'm sure there are many other, less-obvious schemes to simulate what the Thais are looking for - proof of a secure, consistent, monthly income.

I think when all the dust settles, the only two options available will be Funds in the Bank, or the Letter from your Embassy verifying the monthly, pension income amount.
 
So, I'd advise all of you who, like me, a US citizen, whose embassy will no longer issue the affidavit verifying the source and the amount of Monthly Income, had better get ready to have the Funds in the Bank, perhaps starting in 2020.
 
That's what I am doing.

Understandable, but what measures has the Thai government in place in the case you become a “burden” . Besides deportation nothing. They even not take care there own people? In Germany you are reached not to rely only on Government pension.



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[ddotmark]

53 minutes ago, billsmart said:

Also, and at the risk of "throwing a wet blanket" over all this, I don't think we're anywhere close to seeing the end to all this. If you look at it from the Thai's POV, what they understandably want is some assurance that Type O and Type O-A visa holders who are living in Thailand longer term are able to financially care for themselves and will not become a burden on the state.

 

The changes to the Funds in the Bank will better do that for them.

 

The changes to the Income Method, as stated above, will not.

 

The only income that can be counted upon to be secure and consistent is a pension issued by a government agency. I'm sure the Thais know that, and the source of the "income" in the Income Method will soon be restricted to only pension, even for 30-year-old, unretired, ex-pats living here on and applying for extensions using Marriage qualifications.

 

And, I don't think the Thais will want to wade through and verify all the various documents that an ex-pat could produce to "prove" the deposits were from a government pension.

 

Agree with your comments.  If the Thai Immigration relies on "pension only money" for monthly income that's going to be a problem for many Americans.

 

In the US people have multiple means of saving for their retirement other than just relying on a pension or Social Security. I receive money from a 401(b) retirement account, 403(b) deferred compensation account, Individual Retirement Account (IRA), stock dividends, company pension account, a retirement annuity and Social Security.  Does Thai Immigration even know what a 401(k), 403(b), an IRA account or what an Annuity is? I think not. These are retirement accounts and retirement income. And, are they really going to sit there and wade through all of the monthly documents, perform the calculations and then cross check these against my monthly income transfers over the course of a year.

 

My plan is to have moneys form these various retirement accounts deposited into my US checking account then transferred, as a lump sum each month (to save on a multitude of transfer fees), to my Bangkok Bank account.

 

What a nightmare they could create for themselves (Immigration) and us (retirees).

 

PS...I have not yet retired in Thailand, but plan to latter this year.  Fortunately, I have time to see how this all shakes out.  For those of you living there already on retirement or marriage visa's, my heart aches for you.

Edited February 14, 2019 by ddotmark

[Tanoshi]

51 minutes ago, billsmart said:

Also, and at the risk of "throwing a wet blanket" over all this, I don't think we're anywhere close to seeing the end to all this. If you look at it from the Thai's POV, what they understandably want is some assurance that Type O and Type O-A visa holders who are living in Thailand longer term are able to financially care for themselves and will not become a burden on the state.

 

The changes to the Funds in the Bank will better do that for them.

 

The changes to the Income Method, as stated above, will not.

The issuance of 'O' or O-A' Visas and any financial requirements are the responsibility of the Thai Embassies/Consulates, who  come under the control of the MFA. Absolutely nothing to do with Immigration.

[Thaidream]

13 hours ago, elviajero said:

appreciate the embassy letters were good for some expats that didn’t actually have the required income or didn’t want to bring all their income into the country, BUT if those using cash have to bring in 800K Plus to prove they’ve got it, then so should those using income have to bring in that income. 

I can easily prove I have  both enough income for 800K and 65K each month.

-  2 Letters with letterhead from Pension provider and amounts

- Monthly account summary from my Us Bank showing the deposits in a Us bank in the exact amount the letters indicate and same dates of payment

- Monthly account summary from US Bank showing at least 65K being debited from the account and extracted from a Thai ATM Machine- the account summary shows the exact location of the ATM machine in Thailand.

-4 US ATM cards with the last 4 digits of the ATM card not only showing on the bank summary with the ATM in Thailand location but also an ATM slip from the Thai ATM verifying the  last 4 digits of the ATM card.

 

No one is going to be able to use Photoshop to  fraudulently make this type of documentation- especially the ATM cards.

 

Very simple to follow and was accepted by Thai Immigration years ago when I was asked for proof. 

 

There is no reason to limit the income method to transfers of money into Thailand as the only proof when other ways are actually a real proof one has the income itself.

 

As far as overall fairness- 400K/800K doesn't prove much of anything except one has some money for the year and can use these funds to exist. However, Thai Imm now wants one to lock up 400K in a bank account so obviously they feel a retiree can exist for a whole year on 400K.  when prior to that =they insisted a retiree needs 800K to survive in Thailand.

 

If one wants fairness-  sustainable income each month is what allows people to live plus the assets they have- a house; cars; monies paid to extended family; a condo.  A married or single applicant should be able to show their Chanote and use the established value from the Land Office and be placed against the 900K or 400K.  It would even be better than current policy if they allowed 50% of the value of same for married people to be used as the Thai law states that  a spouse is eligible for 50% of the value of assets acquired during marriage.

 

If they really want to reform the extension of stay process- there are many positive changes they can make that takes into both the needs of Thailand and the needs of the individual people who seek long term stay in Thailand for marriage/retirement.

 

 

[onera1961]

On 2/11/2019 at 3:45 AM, Tanoshi said:

There is no minimum balance of funds required.

Is this a valid combo method

 

1. One Bangkok bank Savings account where every week $500 USD (let's say $15K baht) transferred with FTT code. 

2. Second Bangkok bank savings account where a minimum 60K baht is held throughout the year.

 

Does  the above combo meet extension requirement? 

 

 

[ace000]

Yes, from outside Thailand.

Yes I now realise that I cannot apply for a retirement visa on my tourist visa , thank you for that info I appreciate it .although that not what I understood when the EO explained it to me , however, granted I may had miss-understood her , has what you guys are saying makes sense as that was the originally process. What I am hoping is that the original 800k from Australia deposited in my Thai account 5 years ago will suffice . And yes presently there more fund then necessary in my Thai account and it has been sitting in there for over 3 months .


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[Tanoshi]

2 hours ago, billsmart said:

I assume in each Income Method there should be an ", or;" and not an ", and;" between items 1 and 2.

Where do you see the word 'and' in either my topic or the orders.

It's option 1, or 2.

[chang50]

Can anyone please clarify for me that my retirement extension granted on Feb 6th at Jomtien (a month early) and valid until Mar 5th 2020 falls outside the new rules?It would appear to be the case as it was filed before Mar 1st but I need to be certain.Thanks,

[Hindy]

Besides the obvious guys and the money.

What is the technical difference between a retirement visa and a marriage visa.

I am eligible for both,Which one should i go for?

[billsmart]

32 minutes ago, Tanoshi said:

The issuance of 'O' or O-A' Visas and any financial requirements are the responsibility of the Thai Embassies/Consulates, who  come under the control of the MFA. Absolutely nothing to do with Immigration.

Extensions. I think most readers of this forum are mostly concerned with stay extensions and not the initial visa issuance.

[billsmart]

16 minutes ago, chang50 said:

Can anyone please clarify for me that my retirement extension granted on Feb 6th at Jomtien (a month early) and valid until Mar 5th 2020 falls outside the new rules?It would appear to be the case as it was filed before Mar 1st but I need to be certain.Thanks,

The only one I can think of that could confidently tell you ANYTHING about these new rules and questions like this is your local Immigration Office. And, good luck with that... ????

[skatewash]

34 minutes ago, onera1961 said:

Is this a valid combo method

 

1. One Bangkok bank Savings account where every week $500 USD (let's say $15K baht) transferred with FTT code. 

2. Second Bangkok bank savings account where a minimum 60K baht is held throughout the year.

 

Does  the above combo meet extension requirement? 

 

 

I would say no under the strictest interpretation of the rules (i.e., least favorable).

 

The rules are stated for monthly income, not weekly income.  Assuming you get 4 weeks per month your monthly income will be 60k baht.  The least favorable way to calculate this is 12x60k=720, leaving you 80k baht short, which is not covered by your 60k baht in the bank that you maintain all year long.  I do understand that over the course of the year you will have been transferring an additional 4x15k baht, but the least favorable way to calculate the formula is to take the lowest amount transferred into the account in a particular month and then multiply that by 12 to get your annual income, and then subtract that amount from 800K and the result is the amount you must keep as a minimum balance in a savings account the year round to compensate for the shortfall in your annual income.

 

In other words, because you are sending an extra 60k baht over the course of the year it does not contribute to the minimum monthly deposit (which is still only 60k).  Effectively, you would be short due to the way annual income is calculated.

 

If you were to send 65k per month you would satisfy the combo method with your extra in the bank, but then if you could do that you wouldn't need the combo method you could go for the straight monthly deposit method as you would meet the 65k per month requirement.

 

I offer this as an alternate explanation of what I'm saying:

 

https://forum.thaivisa.com/topic/1083740-marriageretireboment-interpretations-explained/?do=findComment&comment=13834887

 

Edited February 14, 2019 by skatewash
clarification

[wobalt]

Thai Immigration liked the income letters as they removed the responsibility
Of them to proof the income of the applicants


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[Tanoshi]

33 minutes ago, spider1197 said:

Getting more and more confusing.  What will be needed after your extension and three months as proof that you still have 800,000 in bank?  Will we have to go to the bank every 3 months to get a letter to confirm deposit?

Currently there is no guidance on how to check this requirement and IO's are being left to their own devices.

Having to report every 90 days, as some offices have suggested, makes a mockery of the option to make 90 day reports online or mail.

Much more sensible and the method adopted by my IO, is to check the balances for the previous year when making your next extension application.

[Tanoshi]

1 hour ago, DepDavid said:

Funds deposited of 600K + income of 60K per month.

Funds and income total 1,320K per annum.

After the seasoning period you canwithdraw 520K.

Income of 60K x 12 = 720K + 80K <deleted>nds = 800K.

 

Not sure I understand why if you have 600k deposited in bank you need higher monthly income than if you have 500k in bank and why you cans withdraw excess of 800k at any time. 

 

Or.... are the above scenarios of what some people may have now?  Even so why does excess of 800k need to be seasoned?

 

i could just be missing the obvious. 

It's minimum of 800k per annum between funds and income.

You can immediately spend the monthly incomes, but the question of if, or how much could be withdrawn from the funds within a year depends on the combination of both and only if above the 800K minimum requirement.

I gave examples only of instances where you could or could not draw down on the funds.

 

If you have 600K in the bank, you only need a monthly income of 17K to meet the 800K requirement, but you couldn't withdraw any of your funds, to do so would mean you haven't maintained a combination of 800K throughout the year.

 

If you had 600K in the bank, but transferred a monthly income of 30K, that would be a total of 960K annually.

You can spend the 30K each month, but in the event of an unseen emergency, you could now withdraw up to 160K from your funds and still maintain the 800K requirement throughout the year.

[rott]

13 hours ago, overherebc said:

I like to live my life with a sense of humour to the fore in all things but recently I'm finding it more difficult to do. 

For a long time I did in the past have short periods where living here got to me, usually a month or so then I'd snap out of it and go with the flow.

I'm starting to feel those periods of 'annoyance' are becoming more frequent.

Despite my earlier frivolous response, I am occasionally the same. With me it is the heat, never bothered me before must be the ageing process. Only practical answer for me is to stay somewhere cool between 12 and 4. And no not a bar.

[Tanoshi]

1 hour ago, Thaidream said:

I can easily prove I have  both enough income for 800K and 65K each month.

-  2 Letters with letterhead from Pension provider and amounts

- Monthly account summary from my Us Bank showing the deposits in a Us bank in the exact amount the letters indicate and same dates of payment

- Monthly account summary from US Bank showing at least 65K being debited from the account and extracted from a Thai ATM Machine- the account summary shows the exact location of the ATM machine in Thailand.

-4 US ATM cards with the last 4 digits of the ATM card not only showing on the bank summary with the ATM in Thailand location but also an ATM slip from the Thai ATM verifying the  last 4 digits of the ATM card.

Except non of the above is acceptable as proof of income and never will be for obvious reasons.

 

1 hour ago, Thaidream said:

Very simple to follow and was accepted by Thai Immigration years ago when I was asked for proof. 

It was only requested as back up proof to confirm your income stated in your Embassy affidavit.

On it's own without an Embassy letter it was and still is unacceptable.